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| tourist - 2006-07-10 11:01 AM
elson - 2006-07-09 1:29 AM
seeing God's grace transform a wreck into a beautiful child of God.
Wow - my understanding is that even someone who appears to me to be a "wreck" is already a beautiful child of God.
Two different things here,
You are talking about one's basic nature.
Elson is speaking of someone who has been able to transform their life when they realized what being a true child of God means.
As I personally see it, we all have a divine nature which is part of us, but how we develop it is up to us. I've certainly heard enough yoga teachers speak along similar lines. |
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| Peter Mac - 2006-06-25 10:30 AM
Removing the spirituality and religious aspects is what what makes Yoga secular!
When you go to your local 24 Hour Fitness do they teach Yoga as a spiritual or religious practice?? Of course not. It's taught as an exercise class just like step aerobics. I never knew Yoga was a spiritual practice until five years after I took my first class. I just thought it was a form of exercise. So if you want to continue to argue Yoga hasn't been secularized in the USA I think there is ample evidence to prove otherwise.
In all honesty, there are yoga studios that teach yoga as a spiritual discipline. But Peter Mac is right in that one can find classes called "yoga" that basically use yoga poses as a type of fitness workout.
This is why a publically funded Park District can offer yoga classes: if "yoga" couldn't be secularized, you'd have "church/state" issues to deal with.
Around here, this is what we have
http://www.yogafit.com/
And, to be honest, doing "yoga poses" is an excellent way to improve one's physical fitness and to cross train for other sports.
So, what should one call a class that uses yoga poses but says nothing about spiritual matters?
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
 
Location: canada | ollie - 2006-07-29 6:00 PM
So, what should one call a class that uses yoga poses but says nothing about spiritual matters?
well for one thing it shouldn't be called "yoga" at all as that term emcompasses more than just a physical practice. why not just call it what it is which is "asana". |
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| fechter03 - 2006-07-30 1:00 PM
ollie - 2006-07-29 6:00 PM
So, what should one call a class that uses yoga poses but says nothing about spiritual matters?
well for one thing it shouldn't be called "yoga" at all as that term emcompasses more than just a physical practice. why not just call it what it is which is "asana".
Hmm, that would be a good idea; say, something like "the asana's of yoga" or something like that.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | ollie - 2006-07-29 6:00 PM So, what should one call a class that uses yoga poses but says nothing about spiritual matters? As BKS Iyengar comments in Light on Yoga, asanas done without the other limbs of yoga are mere gymnastics ... I've heard Dharma Mittra say essentially the same thing. And I've heard other well-known teachers, who wish to distance themselves from yoga's spiritual dimensions, refer to asanas as "exercises". It's a bit amusing, really, to see all the ways that we can take elements of spiritual practice and repackage them so that we may enjoy them without feeling that we might actually be doing something "religious". I think that there's a fundamental human yearning for spirituality. We can address it through religion, through patriotism, through many forms of community, and through miscellaneous new-age practices. Yoga classes can fill that need to varying degrees, depending on what the particular class actually involves. The classes that are nothing but exercises are not free of such trappings either: they are group activities which involve people doing something in unison that taps mind and body -- that alone implies community, and a form of yoga in itself. |
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| I think that it should be called "yoga."
If you cannot have yoga without the spiritual aspect, and the spiritual aspect is based on non-dualistic religious precepts, then you have made yoga a religion. |
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| I will have to be, perhaps, born as a Christian to understand this Christian Conflict. However, I would like to share what I feel ( I don't know how much it would help because of my above limitations):
a) We are all human beings born without labels in the same manner which shows that we all have only one God. Once born on this earth I inherit the wisdom all the masters of the past equally. So, I don't accept that Jesus is not for me just because I am a born Hindu.
b) None of the Sacred Texts are written by the Masters themselves & so none of them are infallible. They are all contaminated to varying degrees according to the levels of enlightenment of the writers of the past though all of them have Truth in them. If we blindly accept each & every word of those Texts as the Truth, there is bound to be a lot of conflict. We must keep on learning & find the Truth ourselves. |
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| Bay Guy - 2006-07-30 9:22 PM
ollie - 2006-07-29 6:00 PM So, what should one call a class that uses yoga poses but says nothing about spiritual matters? As BKS Iyengar comments in Light on Yoga, asanas done without the other limbs of yoga are mere gymnastics ... I've heard Dharma Mittra say essentially the same thing. And I've heard other well-known teachers, who wish to distance themselves from yoga's spiritual dimensions, refer to asanas as "exercises". It's a bit amusing, really, to see all the ways that we can take elements of spiritual practice and repackage them so that we may enjoy them without feeling that we might actually be doing something "religious".
Remember that when a Park District (or some other publically funded program) puts on a "yoga" class, there are "seperation of religion and state" issues.
I'd hate to see "yoga" done away with as there are wonderful physical benefits (and yes, emotional and mental ones too), and sometimes one goes from the park distict class to the studio.
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| elson - 2006-07-31 3:34 AM
I think that it should be called "yoga."
If you cannot have yoga without the spiritual aspect, and the spiritual aspect is based on non-dualistic religious precepts, then you have made yoga a religion.
So, what you're percieving is there is no recognition of soul or eternity without some form of sectarian religion?
Why can't one feel their 'spirit' rise without muddying the waters of consciousness with sectarian philosophy?
Why must we be so confined & imprisoned with our language?
Politically correct speach is a wild animal that needs to be put on a leash and heeled.
There is so much more to experience outside of the confines of religious perception.
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-31 10:30 AM
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| i don't think the spiritual aspect has to be based on non-dualism. even the vedic cultures have schools that have dualist ideologies. |
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| The eight limbs of yoga do not say anything about non-dualism being necessary. But in order for it to really be "yoga", you have to go to the yoga sutras for guidance. You'll see that asana is given much less direction than anything else. Originally, it was just so you could sit in meditation for longer. (Actually, I remember having emotional conflicts with papers I did in teacher training - I'm certified in Raja and Ashtanga so we were heavy on meditative aspects - regarding Ishvara Pranadhana (sorry if spelled wrong - it's late...) I finally came to the conclusion that "God" for me was the Universe as it unfolds, and I can surrender to that. So clearly, having any type of God is certainly not a problem for practicing true Yoga. It's completely inclusive of all religions or no religion. Not to say that one can not get benefit from asana and pranayama alone - flexibility, strength, probably stronger health (lower blood pressure if that's a problem, less upper resp. infections, etc.) - but you do get so much more benefit from the whole practice. And you don't have to go into it with that in mind. I've had lots of students who initially said their reason for starting was to lose weight, de-stress, etc. but they patients listened through the lectures and within a few months or sometimes years, were asking questions about what a particular yama or niyama meant in their daily lives, or how to come up with a personal meditation practice. So it can just seep in slowly. (I never heard of someone changing religions, by the way. People of all religions say it makes their own religion stronger.)
Also, the "life is suffering" is a Buddhist Noble Truth, not yogic. And not to harp on it, but you said pretty much the same thing - "life has suffering; life has joy" - which is what was meant. It's just that nothing stays the same; it's always changing and when we attempt to hold onto a joyful moment which has passed, we're not staying in reality and this can cause suffering. So just fully take in every moment of your life - things you think you like, things you think you don't like - fully experience them as they're happening and then let them go. THAT is truly living your life.
Namaste |
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Christian conflict
