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| Did you, or have you ever been asked to sign a non-competiton clause?
Isn't this the death of a studio - especially if they can't pay competetively, and the death of their teachers, since they would soley rely on the studio for income? |
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| i have been asked, and i have refused.
when asked, i explain that teaching isn't a hobby for me, it's a career, and that i need to be able to earn a living at this career in order to support myself. i explain what my monetary needs are, and will only sign the contract if the studio or gym/organization in question will salary me to the amount i need.
but, it may not be the 'death' of a studio, gym, or teacher. many teachers--whether yoga teachers or aerobics instructors--teach 'on the side' for fun. Either they have a 'regular job' or a 'day job' that meets their income needs, or they have support from another family member (husband/wife, etc) so that they don't "need" to work, but they enjoy teaching.
for gyms and studios that do not want to salary teachers to meet income needs and still want non-compete clauses, it is their best bet to seek out teachers who do not make a living teaching their classes, but rather do it 'on the side' and 'for fun.' This works out for everyone, then. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| One of the biggest issues with this sort of thing is tax related. If you can't teach in more than one location, it is limiting you to being an employee rather than a private contractor, at least here in Canada. I don't know if anyone has actually had problems with this but our accountants keep telling us to keep teaching in multiple locations, don't have deductions taken for unemployment insurance, income tax and such and use all of our own "tools of the trade." In our case, the teachers own and maintain all of the props jointly so theoretically, they would move with us if we moved studios. This all helps us maintain independent contractor status and keeps our yoga-butts covered with the tax folk.
These studios need to know that the more people studying yoga, the better for everyone. Yes, some students will move with their teacher, yes, some will always go where it is the cheapest for them, yes, you run the risk of some teacher spiriting away all of their students to another studio or starting up their own. But teachers who can't earn enough to make a living will eventually leave the studio anyway, so either way the studio loses. |
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| I admire zoebird. Throw all non compete contracts into trash! Because, they are Trash!
But, that is possible only if your food/clothing/shelter does not depend on them.
Thus, you have to address the second issue first. And, then first issue second. But, address both of them quickly please.
Best wishes. |
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| my advice, do not sign them
they are impossible to enforce, unless the employer will provide compensation for time sought
so if you can find employment outside of your present employ, take it
like my Daddy says--Money Matters and Work never hurt anyone....
bah, what does he know?! |
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| I am being forced out of my studio. they want me to sign one and the stipulation is that you can go work at gyms - just not studios - and I am the only one working at a studio...
This is a long list of things they have done, they obviously want rid of me - they even had another teacher spy on my class to see how I filled the class that they couldn't get to fill!
Its a bad environment and very toxic - so with that I am out... I just wanted to see what your opinions were on them... they are crap.
Which is all sad since it is the studio I did my training at - and no one leaves this studio alive - I mean the owner will slander you into the ground (she has done this with clients, teachers and outside facilitators)... so it won't be easy to leave on a good basis...  |
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| WOW
that's pretty cut throat.....
you know, you can sign the aggreement, just as long as the owner understands that they don't hold up in a court of law.....
Noone is legally allowed to keep you from making money, that's slavery, and that should be illegal where you live, check with your local legislator. |
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| shnen:
don't worry about it. same thing happened to me. I apprenticed and worked at a particular studio for 3-4 years, and was finally 'sent on sabbatical' after a few months of harassment. i knew that i was 'on the way out' once the harassment started, and i'd 'wanted out' for a number of months prior to that having seen the behavoir of the studio owner and head teacher toward other teachers who were simply trying to make their way. he would harass them, fire them, and then slander them, and then threaten anyone who remained friends with or kept contact with that teacher of the same fate (firing, slander, etc--and openly called that behavior "immoral")
so, ultimately, i knew it was inevitable. i was fired and i felt thrilled to be let go because it meant that he had no other legal hold over me. i could do what i want, work for whom i wanted, and learn (and heal) from the experience of having worked with him.
it was a tought 2-3 months at first, but after that, it ws no problem. People will believe what they want (in rgards to slander), and if some of your clients tell you about ti, you can ask them if they'd be willing to sign an affidavit to that effect and then you can get a lawyer to send a letter to the studio owner telling him/her to ceast and desist the slander or you'll sue.
in my situation, not only was their public slander, but he also called me numerous times, 'sent spies' or 'spied himself' (trying to intimidate me and my students before classes and after), and related. I filed for a "protection from abuse" with the local police--a copy of which was sent to the yoga studio. I also had my lawyer send a letter saying that we would press charges under criminal harassment (since i had the PFA) and that i would sue in civil court for slander, stating that i already had legal affidavits confirming that he was publicly slandering me.
all contact--intimidation, etc--stopped immediately.
going to law school was beneficial for some things.  |
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| Shannon,
Sorry to hear about your unfair treatment. It may go against your yogic principles, but if I were in your shoes, the studio and perpetrator's name would be made public here on this forum for starters. I've been on a long crusade against crap like that with studios/gyms around here and people, current and potential students, are appreciating it. If we let the ba$tards treat us badly as teachers or students, we're doing our chosen craft a disservice. Stuff like you've described enrages me and it happens too regularly. We're behind you kiddo--you tell two friends, they tell two friends, etc. We're not going to take it! |
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| That really sucks Shannon.
For the record I was asked to sign one a while ago. It was for a Canada company called Matrox that makes graphics cards for PC. (Think NVIDIA or ATI) Anyway, their non-competitive clause was that I didn't go work for a couple of other major companies in the industry for a period of 6 months after leaving them. In the IT industry it's very common to have employees play one company off against another in an attempt to drive up their wages. A lot of companies also like to steal employees away so that they can make off with the intellectual property in their heads. A 6 month waiting period offsets any advantage that might be gained by stealing an employee.
So in my case, it was a little different. First, they were providing full employment, so I didn't need other jobs to make ends meet. Second, they were limiting my employment with companies that might hire me solely to gain knowledge of Matrox's products and technology. Since I write software, this wasn't a big deal, I can work just about anywhere. Finally, they asked me to sign before hiring me. So I had the ability to turn it down BEFORE becoming dependent on their paycheck. So, with this in mind I had no problems with signing.
In your case it sounds very ugly and immoral, and I don't think I would sign. Of course it's very easy for us to all sit around and tell you what to do, since we don't have to go without a job if it comes to that. I hope you come through alright, are you going to be able to make ends meet without this job?
I also think that Steve might be right, that they're essentially unenforcable under US law. I'm not sure what things are like in Canada. There was just a very high profile case of a Microsoft employee getting hired away by google. MS attempted to stop this using the non-competitive agreement, which was denied in court.
It may go against your yogic principles, but if I were in your shoes, the studio and perpetrator's name would be made public here on this forum for starters. I've been on a long crusade against crap like that with studios/gyms around here and people, current and potential students, are appreciating it.
Is this really effective? Regardless of the morality, it seems like a very easy way to get drawn into a ugly game of "He said, She said". Nobody really wins in the end, and often it's just better to turn your back on it.
Edited by GreenJello 2006-06-15 5:16 PM
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| GreenJello - 2006-06-15 5:14 PM
Is this really effective? Regardless of the morality, it seems like a very easy way to get drawn into a ugly game of "He said, She said". Nobody really wins in the end, and often it's just better to turn your back on it.
I thinking publicizing things on internet forums can be very effective, I participate on another (very large) forum where I have seen it make a difference. Of course, sometimes thjis results in saber rattling and lawsuit threats as well.
On this forum, maybe it doesn't make much difference, for a local thing anyway. There's probably not a critical mass of people from any particular area where something of interest is going on. (If there was something unpleasant going on at a studio I went to, I'd like to learn about it however, and it might affect my decision to go there. On the other hand, if stuff was happening I'd probably pick up on it sooner or later anyway.) |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yes, GJ - the high tech industry has some reasonable concerns about corporate spying, information stealing etc. But really, the yoga business should know better. Since they don't we deal with it as we can.  |
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| tourist - 2006-06-15 7:34 PM
Yes, GJ - the high tech industry has some reasonable concerns about corporate spying, information stealing etc. But really, the yoga business should know better. Since they don't we deal with it as we can.
Not until reading this forum did i realize how spiritually dark the Yoga "Business" looks from the outside looking in.......
kinda weird that the realization occuring with owners and operators does not grow past the material plane...
but we all gotta eat, right?
or
We do not live by bread alone, that's why there's cheese..LOL, tee hee, just kidding.
Where is the spiritual enlightenment?
Why is the practice of Hatha not opening the hearts?
What's missing?
Why is the conciousness so clouded to the abundant blessings that are all around?
Oiy Vey! |
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Expert Yogi
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| We're all out there, SCT. Little non-profits, or NO profits  , people working for the greater good, with sincerity and humility. You just have to look. Pretty hard sometimes... Our national conferences have tiny little "shops" where we sell t-shirts with the Canadian Iyengar logo, books from Pune etc. No outside businesses are allowed in. You can't even buy a mat if you forgot yours. (We bring them in from the local studios) This year we had several senior teachers donate things like pranayama CD's they had produced with all proceeds going to the BKS Iyengar trust which is helping set up schools, clean water etc. in his home village of Bellur. Very low key, very cool. |
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| shnen - 2006-06-15 2:44 PM
I am being forced out of my studio. they want me to sign one and the stipulation is that you can go work at gyms - just not studios - and I am the only one working at a studio...
This is a long list of things they have done, they obviously want rid of me - they even had another teacher spy on my class to see how I filled the class that they couldn't get to fill!
Its a bad environment and very toxic - so with that I am out... I just wanted to see what your opinions were on them... they are crap.
Which is all sad since it is the studio I did my training at - and no one leaves this studio alive - I mean the owner will slander you into the ground (she has done this with clients, teachers and outside facilitators )... so it won't be easy to leave on a good basis...
Do not worry. You shall soon find another alternative. And, then you shall realize that you have your own two wings you can fly with. And, not one can tie you down so that you can be a chicken while you are really an eagle. It is sad that our society talks so much about freedom and liberty, but we have so much slavery. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Neel - you are a poet   |
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| SC:
there are lots of reasons why people come to yoga, and currently with the popularity of yoga being what it is, many people are coming to it for the money. yes, you heard right.
there are a number of yoga studios in our area--if they start out well funded, then within 3-5 years, they can profit over $100,000 per year. A lot of small business owners would love to make that kind of money in any business, and for the most part, yoga has particularly low overhead (rent, utilities, advertising, teachers, props and prop cleaning, and liability insurance).
a number of newer yoga teachers are aerobics instructors trying to 'get more trainings' so that they can 'branch out their teaching' and get to teach more classes in gyms, etc--for them it's another modality to make money.
from another perspective, Bikram's philosophy of hatha yoga has started to spread. Forget about the spirituality and all the underpinnings, come to yoga to look good and be healthy. While these things are true (yoga does make you healthy and feel good, if not look good), it's not the goal of yoga.
in the studio from which i was fired, i was fired for "teaching alignment" in a flow class and "teaching the philosophy of yoga from a historical perspective" (from the vedic texts themselves) rather than from 'general spirituality' without mention of God or what have you. I was told that i could only read from certain books if i were doing reading (typically, i would read from the Upanishads), and that i could only teach from a script, because "we don't teach yoga *that* way, we want people to feel comfortable and to keep coming. In fact, you shouldn't encourage home practice, instead, encourage them to take more classes!" for them, it was about students feeling good (not necessarily being healthy or doing well in their postures), taking as many classes as possible, and offering very little for the $ put into they put into the studio per class.
And, there is another side of this. Sometimes, people go into business for the right reasons, but don't understand the risks involved and the strain that those risks will put on a person. Even a person with nearly 'infinite' wealth will struggle with the loss of pennies. These people have come to learn to live with or work with their emotional, psychological and behavoiral problems when everything is status quo--in fact, that's the first palce where we learn to apply the principles of yoga (or any other system). But when we find ourselves in a stressful situation, nearly perpetually, it can become difficult to live those values. WE tend, in times of stress, to fall back into our 'old pattterns' and our 'negative behavoirs." Some people will fall back and then find their way out (particularly if they are diligent spiritual practitioners); others will not only fall back into their negative patterns, but their patterns will become more severe over time as they become more entrenched in that pattern. So this is often how people with the right intentions, and the right mindset going in, end up as complete crazies a few years later.
a lot of this is not the problem of the yoga, but the problem of the student. students (and students who are teachers, and students who are studio owners) are not always interested in learning the deeper aspects. Those who are may not have enough skill in practicing or practically applying what they are learning philosophicly to their lives and business--particularly under perpetuating stress and risk. This may take time for them to develop (learning while doing) or it may cause them to become more entrenched in their negative behavoirs (as shnen and i have experienced).
oh, and it's a disease that spreads. i don't go to most studios in this area because people who were once nice teachers working PT or FT as teachers, and had 'other jobs' or were SAHMs, are now raving lunatics who behave very passive agressive or outwardly negatively toward anyone who disagrees with them or 'studio hops.' it is madness. |
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| Thanks everyone for your encouragement and support.
I do have another opportunity (this is why this has indeed come up), and its a hot/ashtanga studio that is going to intorduce hatha and meditation.
I will be the hatha and meditation part of it.
The new studio doesn't want me to sign anything, and they want to really make a good go at it - I think the owner is changing styles and would like the studio to follow suit. Apparently it has been requested of them too.
Sounds great - actually it sounds like a dream... what if it doesn't work?
I strongly believe that the universe has led me to this and with the other studio acting like children, I don't need to make a choice - they made it for me. Like I said - i am loathing to have this conversation with the studio... |
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| Shannon wrote: "... Like I said - i am loathing to have this conversation with the studio..."
Then PLEASE let me do it...I live for that kind of confrontation--it's so seldom I have the opportunity to sally forth in the spirit of righteousness taking no prisoners. |
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| shnen - 2006-06-16 9:03 AM
Thanks everyone for your encouragement and support.
I do have another opportunity (this is why this has indeed come up), and its a hot/ashtanga studio that is going to intorduce hatha and meditation.
I will be the hatha and meditation part of it.
The new studio doesn't want me to sign anything, and they want to really make a good go at it - I think the owner is changing styles and would like the studio to follow suit. Apparently it has been requested of them too.
Sounds great - actually it sounds like a dream... what if it doesn't work?
I strongly believe that the universe has led me to this and with the other studio acting like children, I don't need to make a choice - they made it for me. Like I said - i am loathing to have this conversation with the studio...
OH SWEET!!
The opportunities and wealth and blessings that flow from the infinite are, well, infinite!
I'm so glad for you.
as far as "loathing to have this conversation with the studio", you can always put it in the context of greater opportunities for everyone involved to grow,
personally, i find nothing offensive about making money and getting rich, i'd like everyone to do it.
i find posessiveness, and selfishness spiritually repugnent and in the end these characteristics do not improve the profitability of an industry.
Spiritual Growth and Profitability can be synonomous.
The best sales professionals are the best liked and give their respective industries 'polish' and 'shine'.
But, maybe i have no idea what i'm talking about when it comes to the North American Yoga industry,
but,
i believe that there is a common thread [sutra] that binds the pragmatism of sucessful spiritual/physical/economical practices and when someone doesn't recognize it, they are simply hurting themselves. |
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| Bruce - 2006-06-16 9:06 AM
Shannon wrote: "... Like I said - i am loathing to have this conversation with the studio..."
Then PLEASE let me do it...I live for that kind of confrontation--it's so seldom I have the opportunity to sally forth in the spirit of righteousness taking no prisoners.
well then - to add to the fire - you know the only reason she wants this signed is because she found out that this studio was in talks with me. 
I used to live for that type of confrontation - and I discovered its a huge drain of energy and that it can only hurt yourself in the end. now I try to end all relationships on a positive note - even if I never see them again - I don't want any negativity looming within me about the situation...
You want it Bruce - go ahead - she's all yours! ;) |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| shnen - you may find such confrontation a drain on energy but Captain Yoga has superpowers!
I understand what you mean about leaving things on a positive note. I think you can only be honest and say that you have the other opportunity and that you would love to be able to teach in both places but if they insist on the clause, you will have to go with the other studio. Tell them you won't try to lure students away (although I think, as an independent contractor, your student lists "belong" to you, not the studio) but they need to understand that some may move with you. Wish them all the best and offer to sub any time "if you aren't too busy." Oh yeah - and get all your personal belongings, your paycheque and props outta there first!  |
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| zoebird - 2006-06-16 8:59 AM
there are lots of reasons why people come to yoga, and currently with the popularity of yoga being what it is, many people are coming to it for the money. yes, you heard right.
Okay, maybe it's just me living in the midwest, but yoga teachers around here do NOT do well. Most of them have another job or something to suppliment their income.
there are a number of yoga studios in our area--if they start out well funded, then within 3-5 years, they can profit over $100,000 per year.
I'd like to see some figures to back this up. My understanding is that you'd need a really big student pool to begin to pull in these sorts of numbers. I thinking several hundred at least. (I'm also assume this is net and not gross profit)
A lot of small business owners would love to make that kind of money in any business, and for the most part, yoga has particularly low overhead (rent, utilities, advertising, teachers, props and prop cleaning, and liability insurance).
I can think of a lot of things that have a much lower overhead. Running a fast food joint comes to mind. Most yoga studios around here have at least the same number of employees, if not more, and they're making much more per hour.
And, there is another side of this. Sometimes, people go into business for the right reasons, but don't understand the risks involved and the strain that those risks will put on a person.
Very true. Particular for something that's not well understood, like owning a yoga studio. I'm sure owning a McD's is a little easier since there are 1000s of them already in existence. The risks and problems are well understood.
So this is often how people with the right intentions, and the right mindset going in, end up as complete crazies a few years later.
True. Most people really don't have a good grasp on the mechanisms of progressive manipulation, or boiling frogs and it's sometimes called.
Sounds great - actually it sounds like a dream... what if it doesn't work?
Shrug, you've got no choice. Interestingly enough a number of my other friends and I all find ourselves in the same boat. Seems like there's something about changing jobs in the air....
Shannon wrote: "... Like I said - i am loathing to have this conversation with the studio..."
Then PLEASE let me do it...I live for that kind of confrontation--it's so seldom I have the opportunity to sally forth in the spirit of righteousness taking no prisoners.
All warriors live for a just cause, eh Bruce? WWII is what made the greatest generation what they are, can you think of a more just cause?
I used to live for that type of confrontation - and I discovered its a huge drain of energy and that it can only hurt yourself in the end. now I try to end all relationships on a positive note - even if I never see them again - I don't want any negativity looming within me about the situation...
And I used to be all sweetness and light, and live and let live. The truth is that some people need a good swift kick in the ass, and that it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them. It's almost a cop-out in some cases not to confront people with their sh*t.
However, I can also see what you're saying. If I was in the same situation I think I'd try to be as firm and polite as possible, but I won't be afraid of telling them where and when to get off if it came to that. |
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| GJ:
yoga teachers around here do NOT do well. Most of them have another job or something to suppliment their income
i agree. most of the yoga teachers in this area are part-timers who either are supported by spouses or have other jobs to support themselves. this doesn't preclude them from greed or going into something for greed.
I'd like to see some figures to back this up. My understanding is that you'd need a really big student pool to begin to pull in these sorts of numbers. I thinking several hundred at least. (I'm also assume this is net and not gross profit)
yes, this is true. the mailing list of the studio that i mentioned before had over 3,000 people on the list with a regular clientele of 750 students per week at one studio. when the second studio opened, the first supported the second, but within two years, the studio was running at profit, and now runs the same numbers as the first studio (after 3 years). Both studios--i estimate--run at about $100,000 profit (i don't know gross or net--i simply knew the costs of expenses such as teachers, manager, props and maintenance, rent and utilities, accounting and legal fees, and what the income was each month).
once a studio gets established, between daily classes, workshops, and teacher trainings, they make a lot of money. Not much of this gets passed on to individual teachers--most teachers make between $35 and $75 per class--even though the income for that class may be over $700.
Running a fast food joint comes to mind.
actually, a fast food joint has far more overhead--rent, utilities, equipment, food, food storage, registers, employees (most yoga studios around here function on volunteers for 'desk workers' and most cleaning chores, and then teachers are 'underpaid' IMO), etc etc etc. many more expenses in fast food. literally, when i ran my yoga studio, my monthly expenses were as follows $2,220/mo. that's seriously low overhead. |
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| shnen:
you can leave on a positive note. as SC said, simply state it as you are growing in your practice and your teaching and would like to pursue other opportunities. |
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Non-competition clauses
