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Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-13 6:01 AM (#49489 - in reply to #49451)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


If a Upanishad is not commented upon by one of the Acharyas, Sankara, Madhva, Ramanuja or Nimbarka, I do not think it would have much of value. I have definite problems with the likes of Garuda Purana. I do not think it stands scrutiny in 21st Century. If I have found my answers, why must I declare it on internet, they are not your answers. 'Munde Munde Matirbhinna'. Though I have no compunction is telling you about them.

I do not believe in Gods, I do not believe in rebirth in the way most understand it, I do not believe in the existence of soul, I do not believe in heaven or hell, and I do not believe in the doctrine of Karma. I believe that Shiva, Vishnu, Shakti, Rama, Krishna and all others are heroes of my culture. I find the way to live by their stories, some of the stories may be complimentary to them while the others may not be, that does not lessen the lessons to be learned from these stories. They have given unity to my people, so their idea is venerable to me. 'Brahman' constitutes the universe (Sarva Khalvidam Brahma), 'Brahman' is matter/energy, it is indestructible, we cannot give human attribute to 'Brahman' like it being 'merciful' and 'bountiful', its attributes are more physical.

I am composed of atoms which perhaps arose 14 billion years ago and have chanced to collect in me from millions of sources. There is a rotation of these atoms in me every moment of my life but in a way that it does not change the overall picture other than my aging. When I die, these atoms will go back to millions of things, animate and inanimate. There is really no death. 'Brahman'/Matter/energy does not die. I believe in 'Dharma', my duty, I have an obligation to fulfill it because I am a part of a society. 'Dharmo Rakshati Rak****ah'. I do not ask anybody to believe what I believe. But please let me know of any shortcoming that you find in my views. Sex is not only for procreation, it is great fun, socially accepted and safe fun in the institution of marriage.

Sorry, if Ra****ah comes back as Rak****ah, the computer would not understand that I am not profaning.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-13 6:23 AM
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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-13 3:37 PM (#49539 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear Amarnath,

There are several Upanishads quoted by Shankara that he does not comment upon (Paingala, Shvetashvatara, Kau****aki, Mahanarayana, etc...) Do these pass your antiquity text?.

Now since you say:

" But please let me know of any shortcoming that you find in my views."

The problem with your view (which is close to other such views that are very popular today) as I see it is that it is based on the existence of conciousness-independent substance called matter. This matter is infered from some cognitions we have but its only an inference.

No one has actually seen it, no one is seeing it now, no one will ever see it. This material world independent of conciousness is unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It seems, to me at least, superstitious to believe in such fictitious, mysterious entities, which are eternally out of the range of experience.

We can't say matter exists because we apply existence to things we know about. If we don't know X, then we cannot say X exists, because we don't know X! I can't say ikajsdjfs exists, because ikajsdjfs is not something known to me. A conciousness independent matter is not something that is being known, thus how can we even attribute existence to it?

Regards.
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-14 12:27 AM (#49581 - in reply to #49539)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear friend, how long you would hide behind the facade 'no one has actually seen it'. This is 21st century. I give below a hastily prepared list of sites where you can see actual photographs of atoms. There are many more on the internet as also photographs showing what energy is (Bikini, Pokran, partical accelerator laboratories, etc.).
http://www.andrewlost.com/atoms_molecules_k1.htm
http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/atoms.htm
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/feenstra/ (See Picture Gallery)
You are seeing 'Brahman' in these photographs. Various techniques, x-ray, infrared, laser, are used for these photographs. Should we not be thankful for these glimpses? Should we wonder if we cannot see 'Brahman' more clearly?

Shvetashvatara is a beautiful book. I am sure Kausheetaki (I might have read it, if not my loss), Paingala and others also are beautiful books. These have an element of poetry in them, like the 'Udgeetha' in Chhandogya which I am going through. One has to see behind these poetical constructs. Is it really difficult to feel whether the book is talking sense or is it just a mass of mystical nonsense? I think it is not at all difficult.

That is the 'Sankara' problem as also that of many western philosophers, 'what you see does not exists or exists only in your mind'. No, 'Brahman' exists even without there being a seer. Homo Sapiens Sapiens have been here for just about 120,000 years, the universe/'Brahman' has existed at least for 14 billion years.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-14 12:50 AM
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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-17 8:47 PM (#49891 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear Amarnath,

" I give below a hastily prepared list of sites where you can see actual photographs of atoms."

Are you seriously claiming that the sense data based on which you infer the existence atoms is outside conciousness? If it was outside conciousness, then how did you see it?

In those images, you recieve a sense data. Based on that sense data, you infer that there is an atom. But what you really know is that there is sense data and this sense data is never outside conciousness.

No one has seen anything outside conciousness by definition - these things outside conciousness are all infered. No one has seen this substance that you have called matter and cannot by definition whether in the 21st century or the 92nd one,

Regard.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-17 9:56 PM (#49898 - in reply to #49891)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
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This is a very interesting and centuries old problem in epistemology.

 Cogito, ergo sum.

 I think that it is all quite subjective, and that reality is by individual acquiescence of a group consensus. At the same time, I recognize that it hurts when somebody slugs me in the nose after I have annoyed him too much.  Is that a reality, or just my reality?  Perhaps I only imagine having a nose that was broken by a man whom I imagined. Considerations like the latter make it very hard for me dismiss the input of the senses.  At the same time, I find that the most subjective realities are those which lead us to assign meaning to the terms "good" and "bad", in their infinite permutations and realizations.

To take the perspective of the Yoga Sutras on this, I would try to reduce my attachment to whatever it was that might cause me to make that fellow break my nose; and, if my nose were already broken, I would try to release my attachment to the anger and loss that went with that event (I might also get a nose job, if that reduced the disadvantages and angry memories of the broken nose).

I guess that I would think that "reality" has both highly subjective and apparently concrete aspects, but that neither should be taken so seriously as to tie me to painful or stimulating experiences that might separate me from the light within.

visoka va jyotismati

..... bg

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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-18 12:30 PM (#49936 - in reply to #49891)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I agree with you, atom is not a ball of gue. But what comes out in the photograph is not nothing, that is what I am pointing to, no smoke without fire. Humans are researching on matter/energy/wave/force, they would perhaps not get all answers in our lifetime though we may still see a great advance. We cannot do much about it except not to get caught in wrong conclusions. These photographs are not strictly sense data, and from these the only inference we derive is the existence of something. That something is a matter of research.
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-18 12:33 PM (#49937 - in reply to #49898)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I agree with you too. There are two kind of realities (a matter of difference of scale), the grosser, where the nose gets broken, and the finer, where two waves perhaps interfere with each other.
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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-18 5:46 PM (#49958 - in reply to #49936)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear Amarnath,

"But what comes out in the photograph is not nothing, that is what I am pointing to, no smoke without fire."

Yes, but there is no good reason to relate that smoke (sense data) with that particular sense data (a conciousness-independent entity).

We infer smoke from fire because in the past we have seen the fire after seeing the smoke. If you never say the fire after the smoke and no one told you, you would not infer fire from smoke. It is only because we see fire everytime after seeing smoke that we think that there is a fire when there is smoke.

However, you have seen the sense data but neither you nor anyone else has seen an actual conciousness-independent atom out there. Given this, such an inference is uncalled for.

"These photographs are not strictly sense data, and from these the only inference we derive is the existence of something."

I agree that we infer the existence of something, but there is no reason why we should infer the existence of a mysterious conciousness-independent entity. You can't just infer whatever you like without a good reason - and I don't see a good reason for inferring this thing called matter.

Btw, I don't want to sound completely negative. Its great that you have studied the texts and tried to understand them on your own terms rather than following other people's opinion dogmatically,

Regards.

Edited by belovedofthegod 2006-04-18 5:47 PM
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-18 11:37 PM (#49977 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


The working of physical forces/constructs like atoms, till now, has not been found to be consciousness-dependent, my reason to believe in a physical sort of 'Brahman'. Thanks for your appreciation of my line of thought (though, of course, you believe in something else).
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