YogiSource.com my account | view cart | customer service
 Search:    
Welcome to the new Yoga.com Forums home!
For future visits, link to "http://www.YogiSource.com/forums".
Make a new bookmark.
Tell your friends so they can find us and you!

Coming soon ... exciting new changes for our website, now at YogiSource.com.

Search | Statistics | User Listing View All Forums
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )



Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda
Moderators: Moderators

Jump to page : 1 2 3
Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Yoga -> Philosophy and ReligionMessage format
 
Suraj
Posted 2006-04-08 5:21 PM (#49005 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


The Aryan invasion, or the recent variant(Aryan migration) theory is part of a very heated controversy. It would seem from the arguments being raised that the Arya people were always indigenous to Asia and there was an Asia migration to Europe.


As for Kama. There is a big semantical difference between how love and sex is understood in the West and in the East. It has always been something more spiritual and sacred in the East and is as seen as the union of opposites. In the Tantra for instance, the union of the male and female energies of Shiva and Shakti leads to creation. In the Bhagvad Gita, the union of Purush and Prakriti, interchangable with Tantric Shiva and Shakti, is what leads to creation of the universe. This is an act of divine loe.

So when it says that Kama arose, it does literally mean love arose. This supreme energy that we call god is love. The act of creation is indeed an act of making love.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-08 11:35 PM (#49033 - in reply to #49005)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000100100100100252525
Location: A Blue State

I'm not familiar with the details of the Aryan migration, but I have been looking at the Chandogya Upanishad, so I'll offer this on Siva and Shakti.

1.4:   What ulitmately is the Rg verse?  What ultimately is the Saman chant? What ultimately is the High Chant? These questions have been the subject of critical enquiry.

1.5: The Rg is nothing but speech; the Saman is breath; the High Chant is the syllable OM. Speech and breath, the Rg and the Saman -- each of these sets, clearly, is a pair in coitus.

1.6: This pair in coitus unites in the syllable OM, and when a pair unites in coitus they satisfy each other's desire.

1.7: So, when someone knows this and venerates the High Chant as this syllable, he will surely become a man who satisfies desires.

translation:  Patrick Olivelle, 1996.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-09 6:45 AM (#49052 - in reply to #49005)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Greetings, Suraj. Aryans remained in Central Asia for a long period of time. Hindus (with Shiva and Vishnu ideologies) also were there. Here they met for the first time and liked each other. Later many Aryans came and settled in India (perhaps Kauravas also who hailed from Uttarakuru in Uttarapatha, our name for Trans-Oxiana). Those who remained in Central Asia accepted Zorastrianism with the rise of that religion and Persian empire; and later Buddhism, before finally being converted to Islam. According to Avesta, some of the Aryans who came to India did not like heat/fever of the Saraswati plains (their fifteenth home) and went away to Rangha (by the 'sea shore?', their final and sixteenth home). They may have moved to Iran and Kurdistan (they have a section known as Sindis) and beyond from India.

Love, sexual or otherwise, is a noble sentiment. I do not know a God who is love. Yes, Indian philosophy has always juxtopposed the substance and its inherent properties as a God and Shakti, which is a nice way to present the truth. I will wait for science to answer questions about matter/energy and creation of the universe and would not make a mystical guess.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-09 7:18 AM (#49054 - in reply to #49033)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I am a bit amused by your questions. For me you are stuck at the wrong questions, I have no mystic tendencies, sorry for that, so some random thoughts.

1.4 What ultimately is the Rg verse or Saman chant - poems by wise people. High Chant -The Rishi may have meant 'OM". What is so critical about this enquiry? 1.5 For a song (Saman), breath is important. Rg also has its own way to be uttered. I see no coitus here. 1.6 I may be more satisfied with a question and the right mental make-up to think about it. Enjoyable just like coitus. 1.7 It will satisfy my desire, I may not be able to satisfy the desires of (late?) Greta Garbo (he will surely become a man who satisfies desires).

We live fully as far as possible before we die. There are few who will not have regrets in life. A man can never realize his full potential, there is a lot of reserve.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Suraj
Posted 2006-04-09 3:12 PM (#49094 - in reply to #49052)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hey, Amarnath. Yes, what you just said is what is also called Aryan migration theory, proposed by Witzel. It is controversial, does not seem to be supported by a good body of evidence and at this stage is only an unproven theory.

The opposite, which claims that Aryans were always indigenous to the subcontinent and the Harapans were Aryans seems to be supported by a much more compelling body of evidence. The most compelling is indeed that the Arya people had no memory of a foreign origin and Indian history claims very distant antiquity.

There has been no significant difference ground between North Indians and South Indians in culture, race and the religions of Shivaism and Hinduism, and recent genetic studies also show the same. The Harapan cities agree with the urban and seafaring civilisation described in the Vedic literature, particularly with it's geography, that it would seem they are the same. Also to be found were seals depiting Yogic Asanas and Vedic fire altars.

As I said there is a lot of controversy about this. From an Indian historical perspective, it is clear that the Arya people were always indigenous to India and the Vedas are more than 10,000 years old. I think it is a difficult proposition for modern historians to accept that urban civilisation existed so far back.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-09 4:36 PM (#49098 - in reply to #49054)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000100100100100252525
Location: A Blue State

amarnath - 2006-04-09 7:18 AM I am a bit amused by your questions. For me you are stuck at the wrong questions, I have no mystic tendencies, sorry for that, so some random thoughts. 1.4 What ultimately is the Rg verse or Saman chant - poems by wise people. High Chant -The Rishi may have meant 'OM". What is so critical about this enquiry? 1.5 For a song (Saman), breath is important. Rg also has its own way to be uttered. I see no coitus here. 1.6 I may be more satisfied with a question and the right mental make-up to think about it. Enjoyable just like coitus. 1.7 It will satisfy my desire, I may not be able to satisfy the desires of (late?) Greta Garbo (he will surely become a man who satisfies desires). We live fully as far as possible before we die. There are few who will not have regrets in life. A man can never realize his full potential, there is a lot of reserve.

 Those were not *my* questions.  That is a direct quotation from the Chandoyga Upanishad.. Those questions are posed in the Upanishad itself...

Top of the page Bottom of the page
belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-09 10:53 PM (#49121 - in reply to #48980)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear Amarnath,

"Then beware of the later Sanhitas and Puranas (1500 AD or later), mostly brahmanic trash."

Its interesting how very few people have actually read the Puranas, but everyone seems to have an opinion about them.

"Also beware of the new age commentators on Vedas with their own axe to grind, like Madhva (my apologies to SriVaishnavas, Madhva, whom I deeply rever, only wanted to counter the philosophical excesses of Sankara)"

Its great that you apologize to Sri Vaishnavas but its also useful to know that Madhva is not a Sri Vaisnhava - you are confusing Madhva and Ramanuja. Madhva is someone else who everyone has an opinion about without reading.

And there is not even a piece of a good reason to think Madhva is just trying to counter Shankara. Dvaitins are very serious people and have strong arguments for what they say. Read Vyasa Tirtha, and you will see why he is consider the greatest logician in Indian history.

Its a bit amusing to call Madhva new age in any case...

"Talking like Doniger, Indians are victorians, what about Kamasutra? It is not half true and half false, it is plain ****."

If you read my post, it is clear I was referring to modern Indians (medieval Indians have not as far as I know responded to Doniger's works yet). You will find most modern Indians are very Victorian in this matter.

"Then, only the 13 Upanishads have antiquity. All the rest should be read separately and with caution."

No historian has succesfully defined antiquity so this is a bold statement indeed. Here it is even more difficult because even the 13 Upanishads (not sure which these would be in addition to the dasopanishads - and an Upanishad is not older just because Shankara comments on it, for instance the Kau****aki and Shvetasvatara are older than something like the Mandukya) are spread out over a period of time.

"Suraj: Love, what love, christian love, muslim love? Kama is Kamana, plain desire."

Actually kama can also mean love, you will see this if you look at a normal sanskrit-english dictionary such as mornier-williams,

Regards.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-10 1:00 AM (#49131 - in reply to #49094)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Good, I seem to have disturbed a hornet's nest with my posts, of which I can perhaps manage to reply to what Suraj has written. It will be more difficult to reply to Bay Guy and Regular. So first my comment on Suraj's post:

I am a follower of Lokmanya Tilak's theory of Arctic Homes in Vedas. There is evidence galore for migration of Aryans, their mention of two-month long night (Ati-Ratra); that of Ushas, 30 sisters who tarried in coming and whose horses were slow; and the sun who got stuck in the middle of the sky. This is supported by evidence in Avesta which talks of 'Ariyanaam Vaejo' from where the Aryans moved because of a snake and cold (glaciation?) and makes Haraiwaiti (Saraswati) the fifteenth home of the Aryans. Some of them moved to their sixteenth and the last (as mentioned in Avesta, Rangha?, by the sea-shore) because of heat/fever. The Aryan story and the Vedas are certainly much older than 8000 years, when the Aryan new year started with sun rising in Punarvasu ('Sacrifice begins and ends in Aditi'). I, a former follower of 'Aryans are indigenous' theory, could not explain these.

It seems Aryans met Hindus in Uttarapatha (trans-oxiana - Sogdiana, Merv, Bactria, Herat, etc., as mentioned in Avesta; also Kamboja, Gandhara), liked them, interacted, merged into them, and later migrated to India as Hindus (including possibly Kauravas from Uttarakuru). The merging is so complete that you can not make out any dividing line. People in Uttarapatha embraced Zorastrianism with the rise of Persian Empire, later Buddhism, and were finally made to convert to Islam.

There is no beginning to either the Aryan civilization which merged into Hinduism or the Hindu civilization itself, they are aboriginal (Sanatan), and have evolved all the time (do so even today). The dates given by Western scholars and the Indian progressives (Romila Thapaer, etc.) are nothing else but trash. Regards.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-10 1:04 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-10 2:11 AM (#49133 - in reply to #49098)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Bay Guy: By the grace of the great scholars of India, the writers of Vedic verses, the Upanishads, SrimadBhagawatam, SrimadBhagawatGeeta, SriRamacharitManasa, and the scientists of the 20th Century, I have found answers to all my questions. I do not usually go back to the books unless I get into difficulty by replying to posts like yours. But it is not necessary that every verse in these books is of equal importance. Then, the answers that I have arrived at are a bit different from the usual. That the writer of the verses was a great Rishi of old does not frieghten me to toe his line (Hindu independence of thought, there is nothing greater than Truth). What suprised me was the mention of 'coitus' in connection of the word 'OM'. I am not in that sort of mysticism, I am not into siddhis. When I come to such passages, I say the writer has goofed up things. The times are different, what we know now was not known to the writer of 'Chhandogya Upanishad' around 2000 BC. I will try to find the passages that you mention and get at their meaning. Regards.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Suraj
Posted 2006-04-10 6:32 AM (#49139 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Amarnath,

There were no Aryans. When you say Aryans and the Hindus, you give the impression that they are different, and they are not. The Aryans was a cultural term given to the noble men of yore, particularly those who spoke Sanskrit and were learned and noble men of Dharma.

I really am not sure what the Avesta says, but as far as what the oldest of Sanskrit literature, Rig Veda, it is clear that the subcontinent was always the home of the Arya people. The cities were built on the banks of the Saraswati river, which was thriving before some 3000BC. The Harapan sites unearthed by modern researchers indeed extend to a very a distant antiquiity, approaching some 10,000 years ago.

Indian historical records record a continuous and unbroken history of the Indians and the Arya culture; santana dharma. There are no memories of foreign invasions or migrations or of some North and South dichotomy. However, there are records of migrations outside of the subcontinent and into Europe. The original Hebrew people are said to be from the Yadav clans, that fled India after great upheavel and floods.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-10 10:06 PM (#49227 - in reply to #49133)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000100100100100252525
Location: A Blue State

amarnath - 2006-04-10 2:11 AM Bay Guy:

When I come to such passages, I say the writer has goofed up things. The times are different, what we know now was not known to the writer of 'Chhandogya Upanishad' around 2000 BC. I will try to find the passages that you mention and get at their meaning. Regards.

Okay, I look forward to your translation of the Sanskrit. I've read two from relatively well-recognized people, and they both said essentially the same thing; but it's always interesting to compare different translations.

Or are you saying that you will reinterpret the meaning, in the sense that the author of the CU did not mean what he wrote?

Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-10 10:38 PM (#49230 - in reply to #49227)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Would you kindly refer to me the page where I can find the the original and/or translation. I could find Swami Krishnananda's detailed explanation, which of course must be superb coming from a great scholar like him; but it does not give verses separately. All things are possible, different translation, different meaning, different stress, different goal. Thanks.
Got to one by Swami Nikhilananda just now.
It is, to me, as I said earlier, preparation to serious thinking on any subject, concentrating the mind on the purpose at hand, removal of thoughts which could distract one. You could concentrate, if not with 'OM', with 'Rama' also. Let us see further.
Atidanvan says to Udarashandilya, continuation of tradition is important, your descendants must know Udgitha.
You got stuck at the four verses, there are more, and eight chapters of that. Read all that with little understanding. Get the context. Then read it with greater understanding.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-10 11:05 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-11 1:01 AM (#49250 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Part II: Udgita is life itself at full bloom, at its best. Sun - What he is at midday is udgita. Seasons - Udgita is rain (that probably means that Chhandogya was written after Aryans had come to India, in their homeland spring or summer would have been the king of seasons). Senses - Udgita is sight. Animals - Udgita is cow. Yajnayajniya Saman - Udgita is flesh. And so on. Let us see.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-11 1:06 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-11 6:34 AM (#49262 - in reply to #49139)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Sorry, double entry.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-11 6:35 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-11 6:34 AM (#49263 - in reply to #49139)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


The Aryans were there, those who named Iran, those who sealed a treaty in the name of Mitra, Varun, and Nasatya in Mesopotamia (Mittani), those who had sun rescued by Herakles with the help of the dog, Cerberus, from the Titans, those who gave a 304 day calender (and 61 days of the long night) to the Romans (that is why their twelveth month is still called December), those who gave a Sanskrit-based language to the Germans and Scandinavians.

In Uttarapatha, Hindus and Aryans merged into one. India was home to a part of Aryans from around 3000 BC. There is mention of migrations, Kauravas came here from Uttarakuru. Only that Uttarapatha was part of a greater India at that time with close links to Hindus; Kabul, Kandhar, Herat, Balkh, Badakshan, Samarkand, Tashkent, Merv, etc. You have a very limited picture of pre-historic India, it did not end at Khyber. Hindus resided in Uttarapatha, there were trade routes to China in East and to Dwaraka, Baruch, etc. via Indus in South. Lothal too was an active port. Perhaps the Panis (Phonecians) reached as far as the shores of Mediterranian and gave the first alphabet to the western world.

Please do not call Hebrews Yadavas, otherwise they would accept Yadavas as a clan of Jews and open their gates for migration. They have done this with Mizos. They need fodder to fight Palestinians.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-11 7:13 AM (#49264 - in reply to #49250)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I would be more careful, another double entry.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-11 7:14 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-11 7:13 AM (#49265 - in reply to #49250)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Part III: The Honey Doctrine. The whole universe depends on Honey. 'Brahman' is the nectar. The Bee is the Upanishad. It transforms nectar into Honey. Transforms 'Brahman' into something which we can partake. The universal rainbow has Vasus in red, Rudra in white, aditya in dark colour (black?), and so on. All these complete the universal rainbow. The light which shines everywhere and is the brightest, shines in Man also (All things are constituted by 'Brahman'). 'When I shall have departed hence I shall certainly reach Him: one who has this faith and has no doubt will certainly attain to that Godhead.''Austerity, almsgiving, uprightness, non-violence and truthfulness-these are the gifts (dakshina) for the priests.' (Not money).
He who, knowing this, meditates on the 'Brahman' - pleasant sounds will quickly approach him and continue to delight him, yea, continue to delight him (whether you meditate on sun as the 'brahman' or moon as the 'brahman', does it really matter?).

I hope my reading is useful to you.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Suraj
Posted 2006-04-11 8:15 AM (#49267 - in reply to #49263)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I am not completely sure what you are saying Amarnath. You said the Aryans were one part of India from 3000BC, so where were the rest from? In fact define Aryan for me, because I think we maybe using different definitions. I also don't know what you mean when you say Aryans and Hindus?

I am aware that the ancient Indian people had very extensive trade and exchanges with many parts of the world in prehistory, such as Mesopotamia and Egypt. There is even a school of thought that the Assiryans and Egyptians were Indian migrants. I agree with you about the Indians giving the the Westerners their alphabet, as well as numerals and some common history.

As for the Jews being the Yadavs. This is an actually a surprisingly old idea that early Greek historians, such as Aristotlle held. The common stories that can be found in the Sanskrit and Hebew texts is the story of the ark, the great flood etc. Have you ever wondered that Abraham might be the same as Brahman?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-12 11:55 AM (#49432 - in reply to #49267)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


The rest, dear friend, were earlier immigrants. The present-day scientific theory is that modern man came up in Africa and radiated world-wide. I know, not very gratifying to all others and Indians - Why was Eve not Indian? But keep heart, scientific theories keep changing.

Aryans on the other hand were people from sub-arctic Tundra regions who were forced to move out because of cold. Around 3,000 BC they were in Central Asia and interacting with Hindus. One of their parties had moved to Greece and later to Rome. Hindus knew them as residents of Uttarapatha (Trans-Oxiana and Afghanistan) with traditions a little different from their own. Some of them came to India and merged with Hindus. Others left 'Saraswati' region to move to 'Rangha' (by the sea shore? Caspian?) according to Avesta, their sixteenth and last homeland because of heat/fever. Both (the Greek and Avestan parties) separated before 2,500 BC when the sun rose on Vernal equinox in Orion. The Aryan/Hindu calender was changed to Vernal equinox in Pleidas (Krittika) around 2,500 BC when Taittiriya Sanhita was written, but those who separated have no tradition for that. (Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak, 'Arctic Homes in Vedas' - http://www.vaidilute.com/books/tilak/tilak-contents.html).

The deluge story is sure striking with similarities between Manu and Noah. The Avesta has a different story of which you might not be aware, in which God, Ahur Mazda, informs Yima, king of men (our Yama) of a deluge by snow. Yima, then made a 'Vara' (Hindi - Bara, Punjabi - Vera), collected specimen of all living beings and vegetation, and kept them safe till the storm passed over. Kindly remember that at places, Avesta and Vedas are the same, word by word.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-12 12:23 PM (#49438 - in reply to #49121)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear friend, you remind me of the song 'Jin Mat Pita ki seva ki, Tirath Dham kiyo na kiyo' (For those who have served their parents, it does not matter if they have not gone on pilgrimages). I have read Srimad Bhagawat Puran, so I have read all others. Some of them make Muhammad as an avatar of Vishnu (Kalki), or may have prescriptions for sins in donations to brahmins. Such books do not represent Hinduism.

Yes, Maharshi Dayanad and Aurobindo tried to explain Vedas in their own way which is far ffrom truth. With a 10,000 year history, Sankara and Madhva can be taken as new age. Sankara made each one of us into God. Madhva responded by his philosophy of five differences. Sankara, Madhva, Ramajuna, Nimbarka, all are my idols. All were greats and serious philosophers. Tags to philosophies really do not matter. I am indebted to all of them, but the answers that I have arrived at are different from all of them. Some of us need to search for our own version of truth. And there is nothing greater than truth, that is what my religion teaches me.

Modern Indians also are not victorian, though we have our traditions. Sex is a purushartha, must for life, no liberation without paying pitri-rina, though exhibition of it is not.

Upanishads, that is simple. If Sankara commented on any, that is old and should be respected.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-12 4:31 PM (#49451 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Dear amarnath,

"I have read Srimad Bhagawat Puran, so I have read all others. Some of them make Muhammad as an avatar of Vishnu (Kalki), or may have prescriptions for sins in donations to brahmins. Such books do not represent Hinduism."

Its just some versions of the Bhavisya Purana that talk about Muhammad and this is not canonical for most people. The key Puranas are the Bhagavatam, Shiva Purana, Vishnu Purana, and the Garuda Purana for liturgical reasons.

Also, reading the Bhagavata Purana does not mean you have read all the others. If I want to read book A, I can only accomplish that by reading Book A - I cannot accomplish it by reading. You also cannot claim that what the Bhagavatam says includes what all the other Puranas say because you haven't read the other ones!

" With a 10,000 year history, Sankara and Madhva can be taken as new age."

" If Sankara commented on any, that is old and should be respected"

How can an Upanishad be declared old just because it is commented by Shankara, who according to you is new age?

"I am indebted to all of them, but the answers that I have arrived at are different from all of them."

I am surprised by how many people come to the internet to boast their "realizations". I doubt that if you found any serious "answers", you would have to resort to telling everyone in an internet forum.

Simply put, there is no reason for anyone to accept what you say unless it is backed by solid knowledge and sound reasoning. Saying "I found answers" is something no one can check (especially on the internet) and I do not see why anyone would say this other than to try to gain authoritativeness.

"Modern Indians also are not victorian, though we have our traditions. Sex is a purushartha, must for life, no liberation without paying pitri-rina, though exhibition of it is not."

This is in fact very Victorian - do you think Victorians were opposed to having sex for procreation?

Regards.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Suraj
Posted 2006-04-12 9:19 PM (#49469 - in reply to #49432)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Aryans on the other hand were people from sub-arctic Tundra regions who were forced to move out because of cold. Around 3,000 BC they were in Central Asia and interacting with Hindus.


This is an interesting theory, but there seems to be a few obvious problems with it. It does not agree with Indian historical records. Around 3000 BC, supposedly the Mahabharata war occurred and Krishna lived.

There does not appear to be any memory of a foreign origin of the Arya people. Since Manu, the home of the Arya people was India on the Saraswati river. Hinduism is an umbrella term for all the religions of India. They were similar and based on the same scriptures. The most central, as you know, are the Vedas. The entire society of ancient India was based on these.

So that is Hinduism. So when you say the Aryans and Hindus, it sounds odd, because they are the same. I think you are referring to the Aryans(the vedics) and the Dravidians, and you are calling Shivaism, Hinduism. If it was indeed true that the Aryans migrated from the Artic and then joined and intermixed with Shivaism, what was new that they added? They are both practically the same religion, except Shivaism worhips the deity Shiva in particular. In the Vedas, Shiva is Rudra.

You will find that a race of Aryans is never mentioned in Indian history. What is mentioned is Bharat(India) and in that time Bharat was divided into many kingdoms. The word Aryan was used to describe the noble men and women of Bharat, who spoke Sanskrit. There were other languages in that time too, such as Tamil, except Sanskrit was a language of the intellects and common to all who lived there. There were many South Indian Risi's(seers/sages) that contributed in composing the Vedas.

There is little evidence that shows a North and South racial dichotomy. In fact on the contrary recent genetic studies have shown that the Eurasian DNA is found equally in North Indians and South Indians at about 5%, compared to 70% in people in Europe. They are practically two peas of the same pod.

I think the reason there is so much similarity between European and Indian history and languages, is explained by an Indian or Asian migration into Europe. This is discussed in the Puranas, that discusses how after the great deluge or flood, the inhabitants fled out of India and into Europe. But do the Europeans have a memory of a migration from the Far East? Yes, as a matter of fact they do. It is recorded in Grecian times, how the Ethopians and the hebrew people were originally Indian migrants and the Egyptians too claimed descent from a land in the Far East, called "Punt" which is believed to be India.

I don't really believe in the Out of Africa theory. Not for any political or emotional reasons, it makes no difference to me if we were originally African. However, it seems to be based a lot on speculation and on fossil evidence which only show that the oldest remains of human fossils so far have been found in Africa.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-12 9:19 PM (#49470 - in reply to #49230)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000100100100100252525
Location: A Blue State

amarnath - 2006-04-10 10:38 PM Would you kindly refer to me the page where I can find the the original and/or translation. I could find Swami Krishnananda's detailed explanation, which of course must be superb coming from a great scholar like him; but it does not give verses separately. All things are possible, different translation, different meaning, different stress, different goal. Thanks. Got to one by Swami Nikhilananda just now.

From what you wrote, I rather had the impression that you were familiar with this text.  After all, you chose to contradict a straight translation. I guess that maybe you had absolutely no basis for disagreeing with the translation I posted, as you clearly do not have sufficient familiarity with that Upanishad to critique a translation of it.

You got stuck at the four verses, there are more, and eight chapters of that.

This is a distortion.  I posted those four verses in response to specific comments about Siva/Shakti and the union of opposites. I did not post them seeking advice or because I was "stuck".

 Cheers.

 ...... bg

Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-13 3:43 AM (#49484 - in reply to #49470)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


It was long ago since I went through the Upanishads (Translation and comments by Swami Sivananda - Ten Upanishads). That was a very satisfying and enlightening experience. There is no Shiva/Shakti union in the verses mentioned by you. Union is like Yoga, if you understand this and you understand that. As for 'Udgeetha', I am sure, the writer meant the 'song of life'.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
amarnath
Posted 2006-04-13 5:23 AM (#49487 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


None of the dates mentioned by me are exact. Kauravas may have come to India around 3,500 BC, I do accept the 3,139 BC date for Mahabharata. The immigrants from Uttarapatha were not foreigners, they were Hindus. Aryans by that time had accepted Hinduism. As I have already said, Uttarapatha was part of the greater India, larger than 'Akhand Bharat' of Hindu Mahasabha.

The most central are the indigenous Hindu deities, Shiva and Vishnu. That we accepted Vedas because of the wisdom contained in them does not make them central. The Vedic Gods were repudiated in Daksha's yagna, Indra hiding under Vishnu's seat, Daksha loosing his head and getting a goat's head only through the kindness of Shiva. It was an Aryan ceremony where an indigenous God was slighted. Krishna's Govardhan episode again shows the victory of Hindu Gods over Gods of Aryan pantheon. The whole of India did not live in the Saraswati region, there were many others. Is Shaivism not Hinduism? Is Vaishnavism not Hinduism? Is Shaktism not Hinduism?

The beauty of Hinduism is the way they amalgamate Gods and theories. Rudra amalgamated with Shiva, the various village Gods amalgamated in Bhairava and made officers in Shiva's army, the various female deities amalgamated in one Adi Shakti, and, possibly, the various avataras of Vishnu also arising out of such amalgamation. Then all of them being amalgamated in one 'Brahman'. The new thing that Aryans gave to us was surely, the Vedas and Sanskrit, without which Hinduism would not have been what it is now. Aryans have long been part of Hinduism. The Vedic tradition was kept alive only by Hindus. It was forgotton everywhere else. Hinduism values all wisdom and does not throw away things.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1 2 3
Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread


(Delete all cookies set by this site)