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Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-20 9:21 AM (#47114)
Subject: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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Creation Hymn (Nasadiya)  

  1. There was neither non-existence nor existence then; there was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.  What stirred?  Where? In whose protection? Was there water, bottomlessly deep?
  2. There was neither death nor immortality then.  There was no distinguishing sign of night or day.  That one breathed, windless, by its own impulse.  Other than that, there was nothing beyond.
  3. Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning; with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.  The life force that was covered with emptiness, that one arose through the power of heat [tapas].
  4. Desire came upon that one in the beginning; that was the first seed of mind.  Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom found the bond of existence in non-existence.
  5. Their cord was extended across.  Was there below?  Was there above?  There were seed-placers; there were powers.  There was impulse beneath; there was giving-forth above. 
  6. Who really knows? Who will here proclaim it? Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?  The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe. Who then knows whence it has arisen?
  7. Whence this creation has arisen – perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not—the one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven, only he knows – or perhaps he does not know.

From the Rig Veda (10.129). Translated by Wendy Doniger O’Flaherty



Edited by Bay Guy 2006-03-20 9:23 AM
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-20 10:14 AM (#47121 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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Thanks BG

"Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning; " I like this, in particular....
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sideshow
Posted 2006-03-21 1:25 PM (#47312 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


that pretty nifty...

its a hymn, so whats the tune its sang too?

I doubt its my fair lady...eh
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-21 9:32 PM (#47383 - in reply to #47312)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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These "hymns" would have been chanted (in Sanskrit). I don't know whether there's been any preservation of the melody of such chants, and I would assume that the "original" patterns might have changed so much over time as to be, effectively, lost.

The word "hymn" is kind of an odd designation, since it has such a different sense in English that what seems to be intended in its use as a descriptor of these verses. I haven't managed to track down a solid historical etymology of the use of that word to refer to these poem-like subsections of the Rg Veda.

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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-03-22 1:42 PM (#47467 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi BayGuy,

"These "hymns" would have been chanted (in Sanskrit). I don't know whether there's been any preservation of the melody of such chants, and I would assume that the "original" patterns might have changed so much over time as to be, effectively, lost."

As with all Vedic literature, the "melody" we have today is nearly exactly the same one as it was for at least the past two thousand five hundred years or so. The stresses and the method of chanting are conserved extremely meticulously and the precise accenting of the verses and everything is maintained in great detail.

There are several classical lines of recitation called "sakhas". Each sakha is linked to a specific Veda (Rig, Sama, Shukla Yajur, Krishna Yajur or Atharva). Originally there were supposed to be hundreds of lines of recitation (I don't know if this is true or hyperbole) but today there are about 6-7. It is well-established that many were lost though. Nearly all Hindu families (or at least the twice-born castes) have a sakha of which they are a part and traditionally this would be the sakha which one learned from and then passed on (this is still done in many places of course),

No one knows really when the sakha system started, but it started a long time ago and ever since it started, it is very likely that extremely little change took place. It is a bit of a grey area historically though,

Regards.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-22 10:11 PM (#47525 - in reply to #47467)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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Thanks, Beloved, that's very interesting.  The Rg Veda was passed along orally for a thousand years or more before it was ever written, and from what you write it seems that the oral tradition has been carefully preserved in some circles.

I wonder whether the ongoing evolution of language must've impacted to some extent the meticulous efforts at accurate teaching and transmission. For example, English as spoken 400 years ago would be hard for us moderns to understand and English from 1000 years ago would be essentially unintelligible.  In a similar way, there are endless debates among the so-called "early music" people about how instruments might have been played just a few hundred years ago.  They have endless silliness about vibrato/no-vibrato and so on.  Even with the strict efforts you mention, I still wonder about the changes in oral transmission over a period of several thousand years --- But I know so little about linguistics that I'm at a loss to even approximate an answer to the question!

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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-03-23 3:42 PM (#47617 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi BayGuy,

"I wonder whether the ongoing evolution of language must've impacted to some extent the meticulous efforts at accurate teaching and transmission."

I don't know about linguistics much either but Vedic Sanskrit and classical Sanskrit are quite different. Classical Sanskrit was systematized by Panini (again no one knows when he lived but people say 300-700BC, nice range!) and ever since Panini Sanskrit itself has more or less remained the same.

Keep in mind that compared to other languages, Sanskrit lost its status as a spoken, everyday language a very long time ago (by the Buddha's time people already ceased speaking Sanskrit for ordinary transactions) so the pressures from local dialects, etc... don't really force Sanskrit, which is scriptural and literary language, to change much. English was the ordinary people's language so overtime as different influences melted together, it would change considerably. On the other hand, most Indian literature was written by people who would have spoken local languages everyday but only written (and perhaps taught Dharma, etc...) in Sanskrit. So it would be easier for them to keep the written and spoken language seperate.

Of course there are some movements where a twist was given to the language (Mahayana Sutras with Hybrid Sanskrit and some Tantras with intentionally bad Sanskrit for shock factor) but these did not really catch on and most Buddhist writers and Tantric writers wrote in good classical Sanskrit.

I agree there would be some changes in recitation but if you see how meticulous they are even today (to the point of annoyance) and how many checks they have evolved, they are quite well-preserved. Also the Vedas recited by knowledgable people all over the subcontinent has basically no differences. Even with other more recent texts (for instance Puranas), the differences in recitation tend to be much more,

Regards.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-26 9:34 PM (#47878 - in reply to #47617)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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These are all good points.  Another consideration is the wide differences in translation and commentary on the Vedic scriptures. Translations and interpretations vary in any language, of course, but I also wonder to what extent the renderings vary over time. 

For example, the Victorian translators seem to have routine excised and euphemized anything that seemed too sexual in nature.  There's that lousy Chandra.Bose.Vasu translation of the Siva Samhita, for example. (Richard Burton was something of an exception to Victorian prudishness, giving us the Arabian Nights and his reflections on circumcision, for example; but I don't recall that he every got around to Sanskrit.) Even as recently as the 1960's, translations of the Upanishads got clipped to avoid procreative references. Wendy Doniger (who did the translation above in ~1980), starts her translation saying that it is "for real people" as opposed to scholars. She also wrote a book titled Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, which I own but have not yet read. So, perhaps she has a particular angle from which she presents these works.

All this makes me wonder whether our understanding of both the text and the words has varied over time, and to what extent the meanings may have changed.

Our understanding of tone and melody has changed as well.  The 12-tone, well-tempered scale was a product of the 17thC. Of course, Vedic music uses and entirely different tonal pattern, or so I am told.

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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-03-27 12:29 PM (#47924 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi BayGuy,

In general Doniger's translation is considered reputed to be very poor by most people who I have talked to who are familiar with the original (apparently she doesn't know the language properly and thats why she never translates texts that are previously untranslated). I have not read it myself and so cannot judge. The Nasidiya translation as far as I can tell seems to be okay.

One thing is Doniger is very much disliked amongst a large number of Indians because she apparently gives a sexual twist/emphasis (as you mention) to just about everything she can. I don't know if this is true because I haven't read her works, but in such cases often its half-true and half because of the reader's insecurities (I think most Indians are also very victorian).

You make a good point avout translation and interpretation. These, with respect to the Rig Veda, is extremely important and difficult issue. In general, the Rig Veda is not a text commented a lot by classical Indian commentators since its role for a very long time has been largely ritualistic and this demanded little interpretation. The best known classical interpretation is that of Sayana which is a ritual interpretation.

In general spiritual interpretations of the Rig Veda (and all Vedic literature other than the Upanishads) has been relatively rare largely because of the culturally dominant position that other than the Upanishads, the Vedas are karma-kanda and deal with just rituals. That being assumed, people didn't really see a need to comment. One exception was Madhva of the Dvaita Vedanta school who did not accept Shankara's division of Vedas and commented on the Rig Veda in a monotheistic fashion (ie: deities' names in hymns refer to the supreme deity, identified by Madhva with Vishnu) - this is quite possible given a lot of passages in the Vedas.

We have Advaitic interpretation/translations by Aurobindo and so on. The case of these translations is well-argued (though sometimes far-fetched) and it does often seem like Vedic Sanskrit uses many words differently from normal Sanskrit. This site has the word-by-word meaning of the Rig Veda as approached by Aurobindo, etc... : http://www.vedah.com/

I tend to think that the sound of the Vedas is conserved better than the meaning in many cases. Even with the Upanishads, some passages are completely obscure and no one really knows what they mean (even though the classical commentators do comment, even their commentary is quite tentative at places),

Regards.
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Suraj
Posted 2006-03-27 9:28 PM (#47964 - in reply to #47924)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


I hear you belovedofthegod. I think Doniger's translation is outmoded, it based more on the translations of early Sanskrit scholars, which today is considered to be quite poor. That said, her translation of the Nasadiya Sukta(creation hymn) is not bad.

This Hymn, when actually read in it's proper Sanskrit form and with understanding of what each words means, it reads about the same, only that it has a much more scientific signifcance. It is often compared to the Big Bang, string and the unified field theory.

Basically it says this:

In the beginning there was absolute darkness and void, only the primordial substance of Akasha/ether existed in it's unmanifest state(i.e. non existence and existence) and a power arose of the one, that was the vibration of Aum. What is translated as "Breath" is from "Svara" which translated as a vibration/sound, and as this vibrates this universal field of Akasha. Then, the universe became manifest as a singularity, containing within it the sum total of the universe and the seed of all creation.

If you read the next crucial Hymn, the Purush Sukta, it explains that this singuality, unleashes all of it's power, and then expands to form the universe and gradually the cosmos, replete with it's solar systems(Brahmandas) comes into being, then life, society etc. All of this comes into being by the initial power of the "one"

The word "Kama" is often translated as "Desire" It should mean Love. So where Doniger has said "Desire arose" it should be "Love arose"
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-28 9:43 PM (#48106 - in reply to #47964)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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 This is all really interesting.  I'm not surprised at your comments on Doniger, since her books do seem to have a racy slant in title and subject matter. And it is certainly clear (after reading some of them) that the Rg Veda hymns would not invite much commentary.  

How do we order all of this?  We have the Rg Veda, then the various Upanishads (in their 108 tracts, I suppose), and the subsequent texts....the Yoga Sutras (chronologically parallel to the later Upanishads, I think), classical commentaries, the H.Y.P., the later Samhitas...  

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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-03-29 12:51 PM (#48179 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi Suraj,

Have you read Doniger's works in general? If so, what do you think of them?

Hi BayGuy,

"How do we order all of this? We have the Rg Veda, then the various Upanishads (in their 108 tracts, I suppose), and the subsequent texts....the Yoga Sutras (chronologically parallel to the later Upanishads, I think), classical commentaries, the H.Y.P., the later Samhitas... "

Well ordering all scripture that falls into the "Hindu" category can be an extremely complicated affair, but I geuss its something like this.

The first category would be Vedic literature proper lets says.

There are the four Samhitas: Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, Sama Veda and Atharva Veda. Then there are the Brahmanas which are the ritual instructions and injunctions (dealing with karma in the sense of ritual actions). Then there are the Aranyakas which are more meditative and contemplative than the Brahamans (these are in many sense not too relevant today). Then there are the Upanishads which deal more with knowledge.

In general the 108 Upanishads are divided into several categories but only some of them are strictly speaking "Vedic". There are the 10 major Upanishads commented upon by Shankara, 24 Samanya Vedanta Upanishads, 17 Sanyasa Upanishads, 20 yoga Upanishads, 14 Shaiva Upanishads, 14 Vaishnava Upanishads and 9 Shakta Upanishads.

Some of the Samanya Vedanta and Sanyasa Upanishads are fairly old and really wonderful texts but unfortunately they don't get the kind of exposure they deserve - and they are mostly translated too. You get a kind of old Upanishad-style exposition but its more modern so the langauge is clearer. The Yoga Upanishads deal mostly with Kundalini Yoga and related practices (again some of these are great texts, I think far more impressive than something like the HYP) and the Shaiva, Shakta and Vaishnava are sectarian Upanishads but generally are texts of a good standard. Keep in mind that the Upanishads range through a huge period of time, starting from at least around 1000BC and go to perhaps as late as 1500AD. A person nicknamed Upanishad Brahmendra who lived in the 18th century has commented on all these Upanishads. These 108 Upanishads are generally all fairly good (I haven't read all of them but have read most) but there are some other texts called Upanishads which are more questionable. There is even an Allah Upanishad from the post-Akabar time!

Then after Vedic literature, the other fairly old set of literature that is given importance is the six sutras of the six classical philosophical systems (Nyaya-sutra, Vedanta Sutra, Yoga Sutra, Mimamsa Sutra etc...) Then there are commentaries on this (the classical commentary on the Yoga Sutra is the Yoga Sutra Bhasya) and sub-commentaries on these commentaries. Here especially with the Vedantra Sutra we have a wide range of interpretations. With the Yoga Sutra, there are wide range of interepretation these days, but this a relatively new phenomenon (doesn't mean that these new interpretations are automatically wrong of course). These sutras are not considered scripture by anyone but they play a role similar to scripture in practice.

The other important bunch of texts are the Smritis (that which is remembered, as opposed to Sruti, that which is heard). One important set of Smriti texts are the dharmashastras which are basically a religious law book. The most famous is the Manu Smriti. These are quite controversial and a lot of modern Hindus tend not to accept these, though orthodoxy has always taken them as scripture.

The other classes of scripture that generally falls into Smriti are the Puranas and Ithiasa (ie: Mahabharata and Ramayana). There are many texts called Puranas but classically 18 that are considered to be fairly old and authoratative. Of the Puranas, the most important for Shaivas is the Shiva Purana and for Vaishnavas - a really, really key text - is the Bhagavata Purana. It has been translated by the Hare Krishna people but unfortunately its a very slanted translation. Another very important piece of literature in the Puranas is the Devi Mahatmyam in the Markandeya Purana, which is the oldest text that we can term Shakta. This is an extremely powerful text for recitation purposes. In the Mahabharata we have the Bhagavadgita which is like a new testament to probably most Hindus. There are many different authors who wrote different Ramayanas with different emphasis but the best known and oldest one is Valmiki's Ramayana of course. Even in this there are parts which were added later and are missing in some manuscripts and so on. The Ramayana is very important text culturally and in setting a lot of values of course. A lot of stotras (kind of prayers) are extracted from these texts and chanted by people daily or whenever. And of course there are commentaries on texts such as the Gita and so on.

Then there are the Tantras and the Agamas in general. Even here there is a huge number and scholars have no real idea how to order them. Usually they are dived into at least Shaktagamas, Shaivagamas and Vaishnavagamas based on whether the main deity is Shakti, Shiva or Vishnu.

Now in addition there are huge number of random texts that don't really fit any of these categories strictly speaking (eg: Yoga Vasistha, Tripurarahasya, etc...). There are also a lot of manuals and texts of various schools which become like scripture (for instance the Hatha Yoga Pradipika is a post-medieval Natha manual, or Tantraloka which is a synthesis of Kashmir Shaivism), commenatries on these, etc... You also have short texts called the prakaranagranthas which are independent compositions such vivekachudamani, atmabodha, etc... as well as commenatries on these. Actually some of the "best texts" are in this kind of category.

The other thing to remember is that the set of scripture is by no means complete. People still compose independent works in Sanskrit today and they get commented upon and used as a basis of teaching. One example is Ramana Maharshi's Upadesha Saram which many teachers (even quite unrelated with Ramana) teach because its like any other prakaranagrantha and useful for their purposes,

I don't know if this creates more confusion or clarity!

Regards.

Edited by belovedofthegod 2006-03-29 12:53 PM
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-29 9:46 PM (#48226 - in reply to #48179)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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I don't know if this creates more confusion or clarity!

It creates plenty of clarity, but I'm going to have to think about it for while before answering! 

As a limited response, I found the Siva Purana a bit tedious, although some of the stories were interesting.  There was one long passage that gave the 1000 (or 1008?) names of Siva, one after another with no explanation at all. I guess if you had digested the rest of the text (in four volumes) and knew Sanskrit, they may have been self-explanatory.

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Suraj
Posted 2006-03-30 7:03 AM (#48240 - in reply to #48179)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Yes, Beloved God. I read her translation of the Rig Veda, released by Penguin Classics, I thought it was awful and even offensive.

Regarding Hindu literature, I agree Bad Boy, having knowledge of Sanskrit and the tradition is very important in understanding them. It is sometimes best to use the original Sanskrit words, than to try and use their translated form, because it can change their meaning e.g. The word 'Dharma' is often translated as "Religion" and it really means the "The nature, way and laws of things" E.g., water has a dharma of flowing. In a personal context, dharma means duty. Hinduism's proper Sanskrit name is Santana Dharma, which translates to the eternal nature, way and laws of existence.

If you're interested in Hindu literature, I always advise to begin with the Upanishids and the Bhagvad Gita. You can read them, free of cost, online. The most important and richest texts of Hinduism are the Vedas(Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva) but they prequisite a high level of knowledge in Sanskrit and it helps to have an understanding of other Hindu literature, without that, you will find them confusing, banal and meaningless, depending on whose translation you consult. The Vedas are like the highest scripture and can only be understood by those who are already "enlightened" about the nature, ways and laws of existence. It's akin to picking up a degree level book on quantum physics, without knowing quantum physics

Edited by Suraj 2006-03-30 7:09 AM
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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-03-30 2:59 PM (#48303 - in reply to #48240)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hello BayGuy,

"As a limited response, I found the Siva Purana a bit tedious, although some of the stories were interesting. There was one long passage that gave the 1000 (or 1008?) names of Siva, one after another with no explanation at all. I guess if you had digested the rest of the text (in four volumes) and knew Sanskrit, they may have been self-explanatory."

Well I think most people would find most Puranas quite tedious to just read page after page like that. Its important to remember how the Puranas were traditionally used (and still are)/

The Puranas generally are a presentation of spiritual knowledge into stories for ordinary people without particular spiritual interest. So the basic idea is that some person sits down and tells the stories in an interesting way. The stories should create devotion in people and create interest in the spiritual life. In addition to devotion towards the deity, the Puranas also present many quite impressive sages and people will then be inclined to go out and look for them. The Puranas thus became indirectly a manual on how to choose a proper Guru.

In between the stories and in the stories, there are sometimes very explicitly (ie: non-metaphorically even) quite advanced teachings (especially in something like the Bhagavata Purana but even in the Shiva Purana talks about various kinds of Yogas, etc...)

The other thing is that there are a lot of stotras and so on in the Puranas which people recite independently. What you mention, the 1008 names, is a sahasranama stotra and these are meant to be recited. There are sahasranama stotras for most deities but the main (the most popular) Shiva sahasranama stotra is from the Linga Purana and not the Shiva Purana. For something like that, I am sure you can find extended commentaries and so on. There are also stotras with 108 names or even 32 names for the very lazy!

I'm sorry if this is too much information to assimilate at once!

Suraj,

Thank you for the information, I'm going to look into this translation to see what its like (I'm curious now).

"Regarding Hindu literature, I agree Bad Boy, having knowledge of Sanskrit and the tradition is very important in understanding them."

Bad Boy...

Regards.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-03-31 10:21 PM (#48469 - in reply to #48303)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



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Hi Suraj and Beloved,

I'm not a "bad boy". 

But I am flat out busy, and still trying to find a few minutes to think on all this.

 On the Siva Purana, it's a lot easier for me to see it used as a collection than a linear text.  It does have sections on Siva Yoga, which seemed heavily oriented toward Siddhis, and various stories interspersed here and there.

 On Doniger, I guess that I found her translation of the Rg Veda to be written more like a book of poetry than an explication or direct translation of the text.  Her Introduction explained very little about the Rg Veda itself, focusing mainly on matters of language (despite being a translation "for ordinary people"), and as I read through it, I did not gain much of a sense of the RV as a coherent whole.  It was more like an anthology of ancient poems.

 On the overall structure of Vedic literature, I gather that the strong recommendation is to start with the Upanishads. I've got two different translations of that, one with an excellent (70 page) introduction; but I do find that commentary might be more useful that a straight read-through.  For example, "One must venerate the High Chant" begs for an explanation of the what the High Chant is.  The text appears to make it separate from "OM", and the passage (in the Chandogya Upandishad) is apparently focused mainly on the Horse Sacrifice. I've found it useful to read this thinking of the High Chant simply as "OM". But I'm obviously missing something.

 It's also interesting to read your comment about the HYP being a handbook for the Nath sect.  That seems to peg it fairly well, as it dwells upon procedures without expressing much of the underlying philosophical framework. This is especially troublesome, given that some of the procedures are 1000 years out of step with a modern understanding of health and anatomy.

 And then there are the Sankaracharya Commentaries... can you recommend a good translation of those?  (I saw him as a statue in a gopuram at the Ashtalakshmi Temple in Chennai, but had been after his work before that...the statue of course couldn't tell me anything).

Hasta pronto,

............ bg

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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-01 5:56 PM (#48491 - in reply to #48469)
Subject: RE: Rg Veda/Upanishads



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Opps, I meant to type "Soma" not "Horse".

I've picked up another translation of the Chandogya Upanishad this afternoon, which unpacks the circular reasoning of the first text. Here, from Olivelle's translation:

1.1 OM -- one should venerate the High Chant as this syllable, for one begins the High Chant with OM.

Now from Swami Nikhilanananda's translation:

1.1 The syllable OM, called the Udgitha,should be meditated upon; for people sing the Udgitha beginning with OM.

Nikhilanananda's translation includes notes identifying the Udgitha as a hymn sung at the time of a sacrifice... in the Sama-Veda (from the four volume version that I got today, not the condensed version that Dover sells and which has no useful notes).

 Both translations seem to equate the Udgitha (or High Chant) with OM while at the same time noting that OM is the first word, not the entire chant.

~~

My point is that these ancient books do seem to require a great deal of contextual knowledge before they make any sense.

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Suraj
Posted 2006-04-01 10:04 PM (#48498 - in reply to #48491)
Subject: RE: Rg Veda/Upanishads


My point is that these ancient books do seem to require a great deal of contextual knowledge before they make any sense.


Yes, they do require a lot of knowledge of the tradition. The Vedas in particular are the most difficult to translate, and that is why there are so many different translations of them. The Upanishads, are supposed to be based on them. In those times, the students use to gather around their Gurus and listen and discuss the teachings in the Vedas and these became the Upanishads.

Doniger translation, is based on early Western translations, which many Sanskritists have noted to be inconsistent with the Upanishads, and other Indian texts and their validity and accuracy has been questioned and many old ideas, that Doniger resurrects, have been discredited. Doniger insists that there is nothing spiritual in the Rig Veda, that is all about worldly living and ritual. This is a rather unfortunate, because whatever we know about Yoga and Indian philosophy and arts is from the Vedas. This is why it is important to know Sanskrit and have a lot of contexual knowledge, otherwise they just go amiss on you, as they have on Doniger.

So, the Vedas are not the best place to start, even though they are the highest and most respected of Indian ancient texts. The Upanishads, Bhagvad Gita, Yoga Sutras, Brahma Sutras and even the Yoga Vasishta are really good to gain some background. Then when it is time to read the Vedas and contemplate on what they say, you will recognise the same concepts occuring in them.

The study of these texts is actually another crucial limb of Yoga.
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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-03 8:13 PM (#48582 - in reply to #48469)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi BayGuy,

"On the Siva Purana, it's a lot easier for me to see it used as a collection than a linear text. It does have sections on Siva Yoga, which seemed heavily oriented toward Siddhis, and various stories interspersed here and there."

Yes, the Puranas in general are organized like a collection and not neccesarily a single entirely continous text.

" On Doniger, I guess that I found her translation of the Rg Veda to be written more like a book of poetry than an explication or direct translation of the text. Her Introduction explained very little about the Rg Veda itself, focusing mainly on matters of language (despite being a translation "for ordinary people"), and as I read through it, I did not gain much of a sense of the RV as a coherent whole. It was more like an anthology of ancient poems."

Well the Rig Veda is made up of distinct hymns and its not really an organic, single text. Also Doniger's translation is of selected hymns - translating the whole thing runs into several volumes.

"I've got two different translations of that, one with an excellent (70 page) introduction; but I do find that commentary might be more useful that a straight read-through."

This is surely the case because large parts of the text are practically impossible to understand without commentary.

Of course the problem is that which commentary represents best the Upanishads is subjective. When studying someone like Shankara, it is as much about studying Shankara as studying the Upanishads.

In general when studying Shankara's works, the order in terms of commentaries is Bhagavadgita Bhasya, Upanishad Bhasyas and then the Brahma Sutra Bhasya. Shankara can be difficult to read and sometimes very boring if you are not interested in medieval Indian polemical literature because a lot of it is arguments and counter-arguments with other schools.

I think you should familiarize yourself with the Upanishads first.

Then if you want to understand Shankara, I suggest starting with some modern material from people in Shankara's lineage teaching in the same style as Shankara. In particular, Swami Dayananda of Arsha Vidya is a good bet. His introductory work on Vedanta and his commentary on 108 select verses from the Vivekachudamani are good start. Shankara is really very different from the standard Yoga-based models of practice which strongly stress meditation. He puts great emphasis on the fact that the Upanishads when taught correctly in a special manner by a proper guru, gives intuitive knowledge of Brahman not not merely intellectual knowledge - one then practices inquiry into the teachings to continuously remain in that knowledge until there is perfect clarityc This is different from the Yoga and Yoga-Vedanta paradigm of getting intellectual knowledge through study and then practicing meditation to understand it directly. So because of such reasons its important to see an explanation of Shankara's method in modern language so that one can better appreciate his works.

If you are interested, I can give you more precise citations for the modern material which makes a good start.

" It's also interesting to read your comment about the HYP being a handbook for the Nath sect. That seems to peg it fairly well, as it dwells upon procedures without expressing much of the underlying philosophical framework. This is especially troublesome, given that some of the procedures are 1000 years out of step with a modern understanding of health and anatomy."

Yes, from the earliest times (the HYP is a relative recent book) the Nathas have had their philosophical framework and Yoga instructions in different texts which don't overlap that much in context. As time passed on, unfortunately, the transmission of knowledge and initiation in general that was evident with the earlier Nathas seemed to dwindle and the Yoga got extremely complex and demanding (see HYP!).

"Both translations seem to equate the Udgitha (or High Chant) with OM while at the same time noting that OM is the first word, not the entire chant."

Yes, this kind of thing can be very misleading. Udgitha can refer to either Om or the Sama Veda. Om is the essence of the Sama Veda. So the Udgitha (Sama Veda) begins with the Udgitha (Om).

I have no idea how someone who is not told that clearly will figure that out,

Regards.

Edited by belovedofthegod 2006-04-03 8:17 PM
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-03 10:27 PM (#48590 - in reply to #48582)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

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Hi Beloved,

Thanks much for the long response.

"If you are interested, I can give you more precise citations for the modern material which makes a good start."

Yes, I'd be quite interested in that.  I'm not at a point where I could successfully approach medieval polemics.

"Yes, from the earliest times (the HYP is a relative recent book) the Nathas have had their philosophical framework and Yoga instructions in different texts which don't overlap that much in context. As time passed on, unfortunately, the transmission of knowledge and initiation in general that was evident with the earlier Nathas seemed to dwindle and the Yoga got extremely complex and demanding (see HYP!)."

This raises the question of which texts the Nathas were following for philosophical instruction originally -- it seems clear how the yoga instruction ended up.

"I have no idea how someone who is not told that clearly will figure that out"

 It might evolve from extended study, but this certainly is an example of the value of commentary in reading ancient texts.  Commentary so often comes with point-of-view, of course, so it isn't always an unbiased reading.

 Time for sleep.... bg

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belovedofthegod
Posted 2006-04-04 1:36 PM (#48651 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Hi BayGuy,

"Yes, I'd be quite interested in that. I'm not at a point where I could successfully approach medieval polemics."

To get a general familiarization of the teachings I suggest (just in case its really not your kind of thing):

http://www.avgsatsang.org/index.html

I suggest reading this article to understand a bit about the gist of the tradition:

http://www.avgsatsang.org/hhpsds/pdf/Vision_of_the_Rishis.pdf

Also, please look at the other articles on the site as they interest you. Keep in mind that some are adressed to a less knowledgeable audience than others so they vary.

Then in terms of literature I suggest the following books:

Introduction to Vedanta (Understanding the Fundamental Problem)
Vivekachudamani (Talks on 108 Selected Verses)

Both by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and you can get them from the bookstore here:
http://www.arshavidya.org/

Advaita Vedanta in Shankara's tradition specifically in India has largely morphed into different entities. There are a lot of Advaita Vedantins who are just intellectuals (really a huge number). Then there are a lot of people who just practice Raja Yoga or Kundalini Yoga with an Advaita Vedanta view (this too is quite common). However, Shankara's method of Advaita Vedanta is not purely intellectual (though it is easy for it to degenerate into intellectualism) nor is it Raja Yoga (nothing wrong with Raja Yoga of course, but in Shankara's system Raja Yoga is mostly an aid to the main process which is deep inquiry based on instruction). This classical method of Vedanta is quite hard to find and it is even harder to find with people who have taught in English so teachings like Swami Dayananda's are quite hard to come across.

"This raises the question of which texts the Nathas were following for philosophical instruction originally -- it seems clear how the yoga instruction ended up."

Well one of the key Natha metaphysical/philosophical texts is the Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati (there is a summary online). The early practice manual that is best known is the Goraksha Shataka and its commentary, the Goraksha Paddhati. There is a translation of the latter (which includes the former) online somewhere.

Other texts which you could find include Amaraughasasana which is in Silburn's book about Kundalini. There is the Goraksha Vacana in books called "Philosophy of Gorakhnath". All these texts are attributed to Gorakhnath, who is more or less the founder of the Nathas - whether he actually wrote them is another issue, but these are good texts.

Regards.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2006-04-05 9:59 PM (#48778 - in reply to #48651)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
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Location: A Blue State

Thanks very much, Beloved.  I've spent some time perusing those links, and I will surely spend more. My time is sorely pressed these days, so I'm sorry not to have a more substantive reply...I've printed out some of this for further study.

I noticed that several interesting Iyengar workshops are being held there, so I may follow up in that regard during the next year as well.

I read Vivekananda's "Thoughts on Vedanta" during January (something I picked in Tamil Nadu).  It was very much a product of its time and place, I think, in that it reminded me of a number of Western philosophical works of the same era (ca.1890) and in that it was a collection of out-takes from lectures he'd given in the West.  I'd very much like to read something in English that is not colored that way, so Swami Dayananda's writings are a good opportunity.

... bg

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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-08 4:33 AM (#48978 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Bay Guy, Bad Boy, and all other discussants who chose this most beautiful hymn and made me join the forum:
Along with the problems of sound (which I believe is very well preserved) and the words (which also I believe are very well preserved) for the length of time gone through, 5000 years? 7000 years? 10000 years? (the reason for Aryans migrating from their homeland is glaciation in Parsi Avesta, and RigVeda mentions Vernal Equinox in Beta Geminorium, 6000 BC), as you said is the problem of location (where were the Aryans when these verses were written, most probably Central Asia, but they remembered their two month long nights of the sub-polar homeland), and the problem of meaning (there is a separate study of Vedic Sanskrit). The writer of Taittariya Sanhita in 2,500 BC, was making a guess as best as he could for some portions of RigVeda and some others were already unintelligible to him.
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-08 5:20 AM (#48979 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


Then beware of the later Sanhitas and Puranas (1500 AD or later), mostly brahmanic trash. Also beware of the new age commentators on Vedas with their own axe to grind, like Madhva (my apologies to SriVaishnavas, Madhva, whom I deeply rever, only wanted to counter the philosophical excesses of Sankara), Maharshi Dayanand Saraswati or Aurobindo.

Edited by amarnath 2006-04-08 5:26 AM
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amarnath
Posted 2006-04-08 6:19 AM (#48980 - in reply to #47114)
Subject: RE: Creation Hymn from the Rg Veda


belovedofthegod: Talking like Doniger, Indians are victorians, what about Kamasutra? It is not half true and half false, it is plain ****. The philosophers did not have sex on their mind. Then, only the 13 Upanishads have antiquity. All the rest should be read separately and with caution. It is the indigenous Hindu thought in action, discarding the Vedic Gods, highlighting Shiva, Vishnu, and Shakti, thousands of Indian deities coalesced in them and their avataras. Shiva's destruction of Daksha's yagna and Krishna's Govardhan episode also are part of it. I appreciate your write-up on puranas, this is exactly what they are, they are not always history, they are not always philosophical treatises. Yoga is like Buddism, getting you entangled in Kundalini, Nibbana and Buddha Mind. Modern world needs a more direct explanation.
Suraj: Love, what love, christian love, muslim love? Kama is Kamana, plain desire.
Bay Guy: I suggest going to 'Divine Life Society'/Swami Krishnananda pages on the web. Good material, no distortion, modern writing. You could leave 'OM' for later, I suppose it is preparatory for concentration on a serious subject. I am not sold on Yoga as perhaps Suraj is. RigVeda is an anthology of ancient poems and widsom, also a record of their times, mostly more than 5000 years old, don't see anything wrong with that.
Thanks for bearing with me.
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