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| Hi,
I'm fairly new to Iyengar yoga, though I've been doing other kinds for a couple of years...I have a couple of questions concerning the shoulderstand practice in this regime. Firstly, my new teacher introduced me to the lifted shoulderstand. Although I didn't have a problem doing it, it seemed to me less stable while at the same time being a less intensive stretch on the back of the neck. Apparently there is some long-winded scientific explanation why the lifted version is preferable, but we didn't have time to go into it at that moment. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Also, I was wondering about the sequence of shoulder/head- stands. I've been accustomed, in my personal practice, to counter the headstand with a shoulder-, but others do it the other way around - any thoughts? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| The lift is to keep the cervical vertebrae off the floor until you are able to lift them yourself. It is also to keep you from over stretching the back of your neck and, according to one long time teacher (Barbara Benagh, I think) prevents nasty callouses and bruises that come from longer holdings on a bare floor  It probably feels less stable because you really have to learn to use your arms properly to get the body lifted directly above the shoulders. You can't hang out on your neck muscles - well, you can but your teacher will come and yank your legs into place  If you really want to stretch the neck more, do plough or supta konasana or karnipidasana.
Yes, the usual sequence in Iyengar is headstand followed by shoulder stand, although it does not have to follow immediately - just some time before the end of that practice. I think Sivananda school does the reverse but I am not sure. Headstand is "heating" and excites the nervous system, shoulder stand "cools" and quiets the nervous system. Too much headstand alone can mess up the nervous system. We had a guy here once who claimed he had insomnia for 10 years because of too much headstand without shoulderstand following. I don't think he ever answered whether it was 10 solid years he didn't sleep or just very little sleep each night for 10 years. I really wanted to know, too! |
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| The advantage is that, less stretch on the neck. Also it is easier to hold it for extended periods of time when you have that support. It is more difficult to hold shoulderstand for 10 minutes without the support. The support also helps you to open up the chest. As far as stability goes your elbows and backs of you upper arms should dig into the blankets taking a large proportion of the weight, thus taking weight away from the back of the head and strain on the neck.
One of the golden rules of Iyengar Yoga is Headstand then shoulderstand. Its not so much for physical reasons but more about the effects of the poses. Headstand is considered the father and shoulderstand the mother. Headstand is heating while shoulderstand is cooling and calming.
In my own practice I now practice Headstand and Shoulderstand at the begining after sun salutations, handstand and forearm balance. By doing shoulderstand earlier in my practice it brings greater calm to the rest of my postures. I also find that I can hold it longer and it isn't an obligatory counter to headstand at the end of my practice. |
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| Ha you got in b4 me tourist. Well articulated answer. Nice to know there is uniformity in our responses. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Speaking of calluses in weird places as a result of yoga, you should see my chin... |
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| That's a good point about the chest opening, Damien, though I usually end with a fish pose (Matsyasana) to open things up in the chest and throat. I'm aware of not hanging on the neck muscles, but then again if I were to momentarily lose balance/concentration it seems there would be less back-up in the lifted shoulderstand.
About the headstand, I think Iyengar advocates (or did at some time) opening with heads and shoulders...if I remember right this is to clear wind etc., but I've also heard elsewhere that doing a headstand after vigorous practice can soften the skull. Can anyone verify this?
Thanks one and all. |
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| Also try shoulderstand after backbends. I find that it is so much lighter as the chest is more open. Just a supported viparita dandasana is enough to open the upper chest area to make sarvangasana lighter. Haven't heard the skull thing before. I like headstand at the start of my practice as it is sturdier as I haven't depleted my energy. I think in LOY many of his sequences begin with headstand and shoulderstand. And yes sirsasana and sarvangasana are good for getting the bowels to move.
Edited by damien 2006-03-21 10:38 PM
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Location: Upstate NY | tourist - 2006-03-19 8:25 PM
The lift is to keep the cervical vertebrae off the floor until you are able to lift them yourself. It is also to keep you from over stretching the back of your neck and, according to one long time teacher (Barbara Benagh, I think ) prevents nasty callouses and bruises that come from longer holdings on a bare floor It probably feels less stable because you really have to learn to use your arms properly to get the body lifted directly above the shoulders. You can't hang out on your neck muscles - well, you can but your teacher will come and yank your legs into place If you really want to stretch the neck more, do plough or supta konasana or karnipidasana.
Yes, the usual sequence in Iyengar is headstand followed by shoulder stand, although it does not have to follow immediately - just some time before the end of that practice. I think Sivananda school does the reverse but I am not sure. Headstand is "heating" and excites the nervous system, shoulder stand "cools" and quiets the nervous system. Too much headstand alone can mess up the nervous system. We had a guy here once who claimed he had insomnia for 10 years because of too much headstand without shoulderstand following. I don't think he ever answered whether it was 10 solid years he didn't sleep or just very little sleep each night for 10 years. I really wanted to know, too!  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Ok - not Sivananda then. Some group does headstand after shoulderstand. I am sure Ihave read it here somewhere. But it does make sense to do headstand early in a practice especially if you are new to it or not feeling especially strong. |
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| Thanks again, everyone. Your replies led me to Jamie Lindsay's article on the subject of sequencing. I hadn't considered the energetic consequences in that way. I must go back to that book on Jung and Yoga, I forget the author - I believe she's in Toronto... |
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| Hi
I also do the supported/lifted shoulderstand in the end of my practice and stay in it for around 10 minutes, feeling totally stable and comfortable in it. But I have a question about this mentioned “over stretching of the back of the neck”: While I am doing the supported shoulderstand, I very much enjoy to deliberately over stretch the back of my neck and also to bring my body and it’s weight a little bit more backwards, a little bit more towards the back of the head and less towards the arms/elbows. It feels to me like as if I am “deepening” posture and multiplying it’s good effects. I have read that this is not the right thing to do, but very often I cannot “resist”, because I like the sensation. It may have to do with my tensed-back-neck-problem, from which I used to suffer some years ago, before I had started practicing yoga. This overstretching of my back neck muscles and the weight/blood on my back head, feel really soothing, but because I am practicing without a teacher, could anyone please advice, is it maybe dangerous, can it harm me ?
Thanks in advance
kristi |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Overstretching pretty much any body part is not a great thing to do and if you consider that you are playing with your full body weight on your NECK, it is really not smart. Having said that, I totally understand what you are feeling and for someone with a tight neck it is oh, so tempting to just push a little more and get that ahhhhhhh feeling, isn't it? So give yourself permission to do a nice long plough pose either before or after your shoulderstand. And if you know how to do a supported plough, with your legs on a chair, you will be in heaven  One of my favourite halasana (plough) variations is supta konasana - legs in a wide "V" and holding the big toes, then bring the feet together and keep holding your toes. Awesome for tight necks and shoulders. The other thing to do is to learn to use back bends and twists to release your neck so you are not relying 100% on the sensation of weight on your neck to make it feel better. And never turn your head to the side in shoulderstand or plough. Let me know how those suggestions work for you  |
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| Tourist, thank you very much for your answer ! You are 100% right ! You totally understood what I ment although my English may be a little bit poor. I already, indeed do halasana and I very much enjoy and feel it’s soothing effects. Normal halasana and also suptakonasana- halasana and also supported halasana (=heaven) they all have wonderful effect on me. And yes, I once tried to turn my head while in shoulderstand, so as to see the clock and I immediately realised this is not at all a good thing to do…
The only back bend I do is urdhva dhanurasana and although in the beginning it was a difficult and stressing asana for me, now I feel comfortable in it, and the best effect/sensation for me is indeed, once again, the soothing effect on the head. Also in this asana I am very much tempted to over-bend my head backwards and multiply the nice sensation… But again I try not to do this since I have read it should be avoided. As for twists, I am not exactly sure… sometimes I feel they are good for my neck (and sometimes I also twist the head on the opposite side/direction of the body’s twist which makes it even better), but other times I prefer to just twist the rest of the body and leave the neck/head straight and calm. With all of the above and also with handstand(=heaven again!!) I have minimized and almost extinguished my stressed-back-neck-problem. It only appears for one or two days, right before and together with the period and it is such a pity, that especially these days we cannot do inverted poses… but this leads us to another page of this forum, the page which has to do with women-yoga.
Thanks a lot tourist, it is nice to feel that I can ask a question and get an advice through this forum, especially, since there is no Iyengar yoga teacher around the place where I live.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| You're welcome, kristi  Yes, I know the feelings you are describing exactly! And I know hwat it is like to be missing that sensation when I am not able to do inversions. Dwi pada viparita dandasana out of a chair is what I use to relase the neck during menstruation as well as all the shoulder poses like garudasana, gomukhasana etc. What I have found about the seated twists is the careful alignment of the shoulder blades makes a huge difference and helps my upper back and neck a lot. (You can do marychiasana I and bharadhvajasana I during menstruation) Before you twist, make sure your shoulderblades are moving down toward your waist and deeply into your back. Then when you twist, keep your shoulderblades there and don't let them "pop up." Did you say you ae working with a book? Which one? |
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Veteran
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| Thanks again, I will try those asanas/&details on them tomorrow morning !
My basic practice is the exact programme/series of asanas of two beginner's 5-day coarses I took in India 3 years ago, with a very talended, inspiring and precise in his instructions Iyengar yoga teacher (handstand/standing postures/relaxation/forward bends and twists one day backward bends the other day/relaxation/supported shoulderstand/relaxation). From the first day that my husband and I went to these classes, beeing totally new to any kind of yoga at that time, we both felt that our life would change, so we started taking careful notes. Back home in our country, we tried several other teachers of other kinds of yoga, but none was that good for us, so we both went on following the exact programme of those 10 lessons. We gradually started deepening the asanas and adding few more, always with the same "philosophy of sequencing". Some minor problems would arise from time to time, but we were trying to observe what was causing them and correct it. The following 3 books were and still are really helpful to us: The Illustrated Light on Yoga, Light on Yoga, The path to holistic health and... advice from the internet
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Sounds like you have found your yoga niche The sequencing in the "yoga for ailments" section of the Holistic Health book is not what I would normally call "typical" Iyengar in that it is not what you would see in a class I teach, but it is very definitely Iyengar and they are wonderful sequences. Have you tried the sequence for cervical spondylosis? I never would have done it except it was assigned to all the teachers in our group once and it is quite wonderful. We actually had to do all the practices for back problems but we all especially liked that one. for neck and upper back issues, it is great! |
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lifted shoulderstand
