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pregnancy & chiropractic
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-21 11:03 AM (#47282 - in reply to #47241)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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Nick - the yogis would probably explain it like this - yes, a pregnant woman is twisting and turning and doing heavy work, but her asana practice should be a time to counteract and recover from that work, not reinforce "wrong" actions done in day-to-day living.

As far as I know it really has nothing to do with miscarriages, just creating the optimum environment for the baby. In North America, the concern is mostly extreme caution due to the liability issues - not that the yoga could cause real problems, but because any problem that arises would probably be blamed on the yoga, right or wrong. And I had another point but it has flown out of my head at the moment
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-21 11:23 AM (#47287 - in reply to #47282)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi tourist,
Point taken. But supposing the act of using the abdominal muscles encourages the pregnant woman to carry out the activities of her daily life with greater skill, resulting in both a reduced workload and a better chance of getting through the pregnancy without injury? Just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean that it is not good for her to keep fit. Considering the support that a functional abdominal muscle system offers to the spine, pelvis, abdominal organs, method of breathing, all of which are affected by the gestation and childbirth, I would propose that an intelligently designed exercise program would be of enormous help to women whose physique can be permanently affected by having children.
Thanks for explaining that miscarriages are not the reason why twists arn't recommended.
Nick
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joannark
Posted 2006-03-21 5:33 PM (#47349 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


Well, I have now seen the new chiropractor twice and I really love her. She's 5 months pregnant herself and is quite sensitive to my concerns and she and I are on the "same page" of sorts. Due to zoebird's recommendation that I read a book called "The Gentle Birth Method" and some other reading and researching I've been doing, I'm really headed down a path of lots of "ah-hah" moments. While I won't be doing a home birth this time, my ideal scenario would be a water birth at a birthing center with a midwife. This is not an option in my location, so I have been exploring the fundamental precepts behind The Gentle Birth Method (self-hypnosis, nutritional supplementation, dietary regulation, and techniques to manipulate or guide the physical and psychological system).

My sciatica nerve pain is an immediate problem, but I think it's actually led me to realize some important fundamental truths about myself (body + mind). Here's what the chiro said and I think I agree with: I have a lumbar sublaxation (common prob in pregnancies, apparently) and some other structural misalignments which could be a result of an old hip injury on the opposite side. My yoga practice is not hurting the problem, but the pain is made worse every time I do yoga because my body is "performing" the postures "wrong" and there's nothing I can do about this until the spine is readjusted and muscle memory continues to hold this proper alignment. Soooo...I'm taking a few weeks off of yoga and beginning regular adjustments at the chiro. She explained to me that in my first labor & delivery one of the reasons my baby had such a difficult time exiting the birth canal was because he didn't have room to turn himself around to "sunny-side down" (optimal) positioning.

I've always assumed my "hips are just tight" and there's nothing I can do about it except yoga, yoga, yoga. Well, she worked on me a little bit massaging, or pressing, on the ligaments on one side of my pelvic region and immediately my right hip opened up more. It was weird. This, combined with the adjustments she did to my spine, I think are the reason for this widening of the pelvic girdle. I know I'm all over the place in this post, but I haven't fully grasped everything I've taken in the last few days. Hopefully, coherent thought will come soon!

My question now is this: this is an applied kinesiology chiropractic office in which they practice NET (neuro emotional technique). It uses muscle testing to highlight and then release (how - I'm not sure yet) blockages to the body's energy flow. This is the part I don't understand yet. Well, the "action plan" the clinic recommends is kind of pricey for me, but I think I want to go for it. However, I wanted to check to see if any of you had heard of, or practiced, NET and if so, what do you think? I'm going to continue with the spinal adjustments but wasn't sure about buying into the NET therapies yet. Any thoughts??

Thanks,
Joanna
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Posted 2006-03-21 6:26 PM (#47359 - in reply to #47241)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


nick:

i do not take this personally, of course, as it is an important exploration of theory and practice.

i have been researching prenatal yoga for a number of years now, and i have yet to come up with 'solid' answers for much of anything. for the post part, they are general like what tourist wrote, or they're more of a 'just do as i say' sort of quality. i have yet to find a lot of 'hard science' in the western sense on the matter.

in a way, this follows along the same question as whether or not a woman should invert during menstruation. there is very little 'western scientific' evidence that this causes harm, but there is a tradition of it that talks about energy movement, the concept of needing to rest and relax during that time, etc. and ultimately, each woman must decide for herself.

i can say that it's also related to a conversation that my MIL and I had recently. We were talking about a young pregnant woman whom my MIL knows. this young woman is a jogger/runner and has done this activity for many years. She's now about 5-6 months pregnant, and continuing to run her normal mileage. My MIL thinks that this is horrible and dangerous for the pregnancy. I have read very little literature that states that this sort of fitness--to a woman who is acclimated to it--is problematic in a normal, healthy pregnancy. The same can be said of any sport or physical activity, unless that activity could cause damage to the abdomen--such as soccer/football and the potential for a ball hitting the belly at high force or something like this.

in many ways, the same can be true of yoga. i have many clients who practice power, vinyasa, and astanga yoga with me for many years before they become pregnant. after they're pregnant, we only make a few changes--no more abdominal locks, no more laying on your back after a certain time, no more laying on your tummy after a certain time, and no more twists (except low twists). They can do the rest of the practice--including things like navasana, which is an abdominal movement--and they have fine, healthy pregnancies. I do not generally take on 'new' and pregnant clients unless they're in a pre-natal appropriate class (beginners yoga with me is prenatal appropriate if one is pregnant and has never done yoga).

in what i have studied related to pregnancy fitness, there is actually very little information out there for active women such as myself. I recently read an article about 'fitness for pregnancy' and the assumption is that the woman was absolutely inactive prior to becoming pregnant--which does happen--and therefore it gave a routine that was so simple and so gentle, i'd be bored with it in about 5 seconds. and then when i look around, i see women doing all sorts of physical activities that they did before pregnant, while pregnant--all the way until the birthday.

so, it's difficult for me to say 'this is that, this is absolute.' and when it comes to twists, because i don't know entirely, i err on the side of caution.
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-21 6:28 PM (#47360 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Joanna,
Yes i have studied something that sounds similiar-kinaesiology is widely taught in chiropractic colleges or the students are familiar with the technique. I never got on with it personally (I like to leave the subconscious deeply buried..) and there were too many unexplained or dogmatic philosophies associated with it. But that was just me, so if you find it helps, thats great too. Glad you found someone you can relate to, it's so vital in the process
Take care of yourselves!!
Nick
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Posted 2006-03-21 6:34 PM (#47362 - in reply to #47349)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


joanne:

i'm glad that things are going so well for you. i do not know anything about NET, but i hope that someone can offer you insight into the issue. good luck!
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-21 6:59 PM (#47367 - in reply to #47362)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Zoebird,
Good post, as ever! Some thought provoking stuff, but I've been up fornearly twenty hours, so my brain isn't able to respond-Sounds great, though. You can tell I'm shattered, no?
Good night
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-22 3:32 AM (#47397 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Joanna,
I think that some people seem to get on very well with applied kinaesiology, and others, like myself, absolutely hate it. Part of the reason I don't like it is because I've noticed its practicioner's using hypnotic suggestion and mind-control techniques to convince their patients of the therapeutic worth of the visit to the kinaesiologist. This is all very well, asuming it makes the patient better, but I feel that a smokescreen is erected that prevents all parties from perceiving the truth. Please don't tell your chiro what I said, becuase there's almost a cult mentality surrounding kinaesiologists in this country, and i really don't want any of them on my back-I can't be bothered dealing with these people!
If I were you, and I'm obviously not (although, if I was a girl, obviously i'd be a brilliant one! ), I would go for the chiropractic (if it helps). Constantly analyze the worth of the treatment.In this country, and i think America might be worse, I think chiropractors can sometimes be guilty of spinning a line so expertly that they end up using similiar mind-control techniques to the kinaesiologists-you wouldn't believe some of the stuff i've witnessed. It's one of the main reasons why i still teach yoga, i didnt want to be associated with all the hype.
Take care
Nick
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joannark
Posted 2006-03-22 11:53 AM (#47445 - in reply to #47397)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


Okay, Nick, I appreciate your comments - I do. I would also appreciate, however, some reasons why I should be apprehensive. Is this just a "gut" thing that energies are not being blocked in the body - that it is all a money-making scheme cloaked in convincing alternative healing rhetoric? Or are there specific scientific (or researched studies) reasons for knowing it is quack science? I really am open - I don't have an opinion yet. What she is saying resonates with what I feel is true, but I'm aware my "feelings" are too wrapped up in wishful thinking and I can't quite trust them either. Any feedback (really) is wanted.

-Joanna
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-22 1:54 PM (#47471 - in reply to #47445)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Joanna,
Sorry, i should have said more clearly that it was just my gut instinct-but like i said, whatever works for you, and I think that it's really good that you've found somebody who you feel is a positive asset-this is probably the most important point in the relationship that you have with her.
Take care
Nick
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Posted 2006-03-23 12:17 PM (#47594 - in reply to #47445)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


joanna:

as i've mentioned before, i'm a 'big believer' in energy blocks and energy overflows. i believe that these often have various origins--from physical trauma to emotional trauma to spirit or soul trauma. part of unblocking is working with the energy body itself--through yoga, through various healing techniques such as acupuncture, thai massage, etc. the other part is understanding how you got the block in the first place, where it's located and why.

you've mentioned before that your hips are blocked for emotional reasons. While getting the energy work done will help, so will truly working with those underlying emotional reasons and healing them directly through emotional work. those emotional reasons may have spiritual implications too, and there may need to be work on that level as well. I believe, as you say, that this is a physical manifestation of something else going on--something much deeper.

now for some practical advice that you can take or leave. i'm constantly wary of an individual who wants to sell me, up front, a very expensive care package. this is one of my concerns about chiropractic in general. i'll give an example that my husband and i experienced that you can think about.

in recent months, my husband has been having a specific neck problem. we're not entirely sure of the origin, but a change in his weight training routine has helped tremendously. he removed a movement and it made a huge difference. but, the damage itself was 'done' and a friend recommended chiropractic. Essentially, i'm a believer in chiropractice care overall. i think it is beneficial. So, my husband and i went to a chiropractor (in network) to see what needed to be done.

we went for the consultation, and the chiropractor recommended 4 months of 'intensive care' during which my husband would visit the office 4 days a week for adjustments and other therapies. then, after 4 months, he would do 4 more months of 'less intensive' care, where his adjustments would be twice a week. and then 4 months of once a week, then a re-evaluation for 'maintenance.' Our insurance only covers $2000 worth of care--and only if prescribed by a doctor as a form of physical therapy. This chiropractor wanted us to pay, up front for the whole year of stuff. the cost we were given was $6,000.

we told him that we would think about it. And what then? we started to think about it and my husband decided he wanted to check out other modalities. He already gets massage once a week. he gets thai massage from me roughly 3-4 times a week. he does yoga asana twice a week. It occured to him that hellerworker may be a good idea, and we happened to find one (by accident--are there accidents?) the next day.

when we went for our consultation with her, she really listened to ryan describe it and then started to touch gently and get a sense of what was going on. she asked about his other therapies (massage, thai massage, yoga) and she and i talked about his thai massage and yoga--she asked for my interpretations and impressions to inform her work. She then said thta she recommends that he comes for an hour-long session, at a discounted price (since it's all out of pocket), to see if it's really what he wants to do. And then from that session, they could talk about how to proceed--once a month, once a week, whatever.

when i do thai massage, i take a similar approach. if a person comes to me with a specific problem--whether it's yoga or thai massage actually--i explain to them how these modalities work, and how they take repitition and practice, but that they don't necessarily have to be concentrated. If the condition is relatively severe, i recommend 4-8 sessions established to get a basis, but only after i've given a discounted first thai massage or private lesson. While they pay for them up front, they can use them when they want--once a month, once a week, biweekly, whatever. And, there's no pressure to do it that way. I also recommend that we can 'pay as we go' and that they can make appointments whenever it suits them. Nothing is 'locked in.' You know what i mean?

So, my concern here is that you'll be locked into an expensive therapy that you don't fully comprehend yet. but, it could be absolutely the right thing for you. i really don't know.

if there is an emotional underpinning, until you solve this, the energy work will only release so much, and only go so far. if that emotional underpinning had a spiritual impact, then the emotional and energy work will only go so far until the spirit is healed. but, it's ok--it's a life long process anyway, so there's no time crunch in which you have to complete something or get it done--right? but, i recommend that in addition to whatever energy work you're getting--which are another layer of physical therapies, with emotional and spiritual impacts--you also get other forms of therapies to help heal the emotional issues and spiritual issues that impact this area as well.

am i being clear? i don't want to be confusing.
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joannark
Posted 2006-03-29 3:44 PM (#48193 - in reply to #47594)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


Hi Zoebird:

I know you posted a while ago, but I've been sort of wrestling with my own feelings of disapointments, frustrations and "where do I go now?" thoughts. I wish I'd been a bit more cautious with laying down the $$ for the chiro, as the pain is still constant (although less severe) and has now kept me from yoga for two weeks. I am starting to feel discouraged about that and know I need to explore meditation more and pranayama exercises. It's not that I think the chiro is not helping at all - she really is - but it's not the magical cure I hoped it would be.

I wanted to post you, specifically and personally, because it is due to your prompting and posts on another thread that have led me down the path I'm on in this pregnancy which I know is a much more aware and positive path than my first pregnancy. I'm just a baby in learning everything, but it truly is because of your posts that I even began to consider "natural" childbirthing. I have been reading like crazy for the last month and while my sciatica is killing me, and my yoga is sadly absent from my life, my emotional attitude toward the birth is drastically improved. I've even had three dreams where the labor was this amazingly peaceful event - I have never dreamed about labor before these dreams. I met with a woman yesterday who does home births and talked to her for four hours - I fully expected to be emotionally very vulnerable and shaken, but instead it was calm and intimate without upset. This tells me (along wiht the dreams and how I feel in general) I am really overcoming my fears.

I can't tell you how much this surprises me. I still haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do (birth plan, that is) because I'm still reading, contemplating, talking with my husband, considering the finances, etc. But one thing I do know: relaxation techniques (whether that be self-hypnosis, visualization, affirmation statements, etc.) are the key to this labor going in a smooth way. I am learning so much about the body, physically, and what happens during labor and how I can "help" or "go with" the contractions instead of fight them. I am even a little excited to venture into this experience to see how well "it works."

I considered PMing you but wanted other women to read this too, in case others are out there who've also had difficulties with either a traumatic labor or hearing about other women's horror stories. But, anyway, this is a thank you post to Zoebird. It's funny, 'cause I've been on this forum for nearly two years now, and I don't post often because I don't like controversy with people I don't know. Zoebird, you happen to be one of the people I would read and disagree with but not venture a dissenting opinion. I'm sure I sitll don't agree with a lot of what you believe - but you have really helped me out in this one paricular area and it has and will lead to an examination of my entire lifestyle. (I'm having a lot of conversations with my husband about health care and perhaps switching to a homeopath or self-educating and dropping all but major catastrophic. He's not sold yet - well, nor am I quite).

Anyway, the sciatic nerve is still really bothering me and I don't have a solution. The chiro is helping somewhat but no major curing is going on. I miss yoga so much I could cry (and have!) but it's forcing me to look in other directions I haven't explored enough in my short yoga career - namely, meditation and pranayma practice. So, in the end, perhaps I will be grateful for my physical limitations.

Thanks to all for their input and helpful suggestions.
-Joanna
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-29 4:51 PM (#48197 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Joanna,
Sorry to hear your sciatic pain is still bothering you. From what I have seen, this kind of pain is one that is extreme. or can be. I hope you find relief soon. Are there any physios related to the pregancy unit at your hospital? i would think that these physios would probably be the most expert at dealing with women who suffer sciatica during pregnancy-just a thought.
Take care
Nick
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joannark
Posted 2006-03-29 6:19 PM (#48208 - in reply to #48197)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


I went to one of them first, before going to a chiropractor. While she was very kind and informative, she didn't tell me anything new and her exercises have not helped - I did them for two weeks and gave up and went to the chiro. ! But the pain is manageable - it's not a terrible case, just enough to keep me from being as active as I'd like.
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-30 8:09 AM (#48248 - in reply to #48208)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Joanna,
Hope you don't mind me giving yet another piece of advice or information. This website (http://www.dianelee.ca/videos/compressor.html) is about a belt called the compressor, which i believe is similiar to the trochanteric belt that I talked about before. It is designed to allow a woman to keep exercising if she has problems with sacroiliac joint laxity during pregnancy. Diane lee is a Canadian Physiotherapist who is considered to be a leading expert on the issues surrounding the sacroiliac joint. Most of the stuff she talks about is probably a bit too academic to be of any use to you, but it may be worth trawling through the site for any ideas.
Take care
Nick
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Posted 2006-03-30 8:26 AM (#48249 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


joanna:

i'm glad that i have been of some help to you. i'm also glad that you are progressing so well with your own thoughts and feelings about your upcoming birthday. it's an exciting process, and i'm so glad that you've been having positive experiences.

i know that you haven't been attending your yoga asana classes, but have you spoken to your teacher about your sciatic pain? there are a number of my clients (including my own mother) who struggle with sciatic pain either chronicly or occassionally and i work with them specificly on this issue. i find it takes hands on work, or i'd go ahead and offer to help you as best i could. I just don't think we live close to each other. if we do, then we can make arrangements (i'm in pennsylvania--philadelphia area); i would be happy to check you out and see what's what and what yoga asanas and pranayamas may help. Talking to your teacher may help, as well as attending class even though there is discomfort and modifying as necessary. for many of my clients, yoga helps ease the pain a bit. i encourage you to consider returning to it if you feel that you can.

Have you practiced Nadi Shodhana Pranayama? it might be particularly beneficial in combination with an astanga-inspired, pregnancy-modified practice. it's an energy-body cleansing pranayama that is really opening and energizing. it's one of my favorites and i usually end most of my classes with it.

I'm glad that things are going well for you. It's ok to be a beginner, too, btw. In zen buddhism, there's a concept called "beginners mind" and even the most experienced practioners strive to see things or to approach things in this way. it leads to really great growth and wisdom, and so you're actually quite blessed to be where you are right now. and as you have progressed, you have been able to maintain the appropriate attitude toward growth--the beginners mind--which is most excellent.
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-30 10:37 AM (#48267 - in reply to #48248)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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Nick - I have seen women just using a regular yoga belt in the same way it is shown on that site. Some for unstable SI and some for unstable hips (lower for hips) and it seems to be very helpful. Oh - the things I wish I had known about 25 years ago!
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Nick
Posted 2006-03-30 1:05 PM (#48297 - in reply to #48267)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



20005001002525
Location: London, England
tourist - 2006-03-30 3:37 PM

Nick - I have seen women just using a regular yoga belt in the same way it is shown on that site. Some for unstable SI and some for unstable hips (lower for hips) and it seems to be very helpful. Oh - the things I wish I had known about 25 years ago!


Hi Tourist,
Yes, inventions like that almost make me wish I was a girl (along with the other benefits, like getting 'brazen hussy' logo'ed onto your t-shirt, and all of the other stuff). i get a good feeling from Diane Lee-she's at the top of the ladder in areas surrounding these kinds of issues. It's easy to put a fot wrong in the sacroiliac area, and she seems to hit the nail on the head. Its quite interesting how she dtermines the contribution of the multifidus and transversus abdominus muscles. I think that her work and the work of her associates has been instrumental in my understanding of how yoga can be both good and bad for us.
take care
Nick
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-30 4:31 PM (#48316 - in reply to #48297)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
50002000100010010010010025
Good points. I should clarify that the women I have seen using them were not pregnant. Some were for post-pregnancy issues and some for menopausal issues. Placement during pregnancy would be crucial.
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georgeshoemoney
Posted 2010-08-06 1:50 AM (#124537 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: RE: pregnancy & chiropractic


When you add the increase in weight, shift in center of gravity and the change in biomechanics (due to the weight--all out in front!), it is no wonder that pregnant women are prone to back pain.
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JennyKent
Posted 2011-09-19 11:29 PM (#209251 - in reply to #46372)
Subject: Re: pregnancy & chiropractic


Member

Posts: 5

All chiropractors are trained to work with women who are pregnant. Investing in the fertility and pregnancy wellness of women who are pregnant or trying to conceive is a routine care for most chiropractors. Chiropractic care during pregnancy can help the baby assume her optimal birthing position.

Edited by JennyKent 2011-09-19 11:30 PM
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