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 Ladies HolidayModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
caffeine14 |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442      | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Nick |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | Nick - last question first - yes, it is the way the bandha is taught, not the bandha itself that is the problem. And people overdoing, which is such a typical western approach. How many stupid warning labels are on products to tell us more is not always better?  The "holiday" question - I don't think we will have any scientific studies on this in the near future. I take my advice on this from the Iyengars and Geeta in particular. As well as studying yoga inside and out for the past 50 or so years, seeing thousands of female students, both Indian and western, she is a doctor of Ayurvedic medicine. I don't have a great understanding of Ayurveda but I have chosen to take her word for it that it is a bad idea for me to invert, do deep twists, practice strenuously or practice bandhas during menstruation. I just think she knows more than I do about this and I accept her word. I consider most of us to be rank beginners in yoga and simply not well enough informed tomake such decisions for ourselves. How often have you tried some new thing (new to you) and wondered why the "experts" say you have to do steps in the process that seem just a waste of time? And how many times have you skipped those steps and found out later that it would have been better or easier if you had taken the time to do them? Painting without prepping the surface is a good one - we had a metal door at work that our maintenance guy painted with the wrong paint and without prepping at least 3 different times. The paint peeled off in sheets of course, until he finally did the prep work properly. I consider my reproductive health to be way too important ot be messing around ignoring expert advice. OTOH, I do sometimes demo inversions and don't worry too much about that. | ||
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| Nick |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | In fact, we don't teach much around the bandhas in Iyengar yoga. The nicest description I have heard was "a gentle, inner, energetic lift" for uddiyana bandha. We have a tendency to harden the abdomen and consequently harden the organs under the muscles. This is all coming straight from India from teachers who have gynecological problems working directly with Geeta. But the yogis are incredibly pragmatic and I am sure they would tell us that if we had to be upside down in a tree for some reason while menstruating, then go ahead and do it. We are told not to do hard physical work during our periods as well, but I am sure most Indian women do not have the choice or luxury of not hauling babies and laundry and groceries around anymore than I do. So she does the work but refrains from over exerting or being inverted during her asana practice. And don't forget - Iyengar practice typically includes a 10 minute headstand, 10 minute shoulderstand and some time in halasana as well. So it is not a brief stay for us Iyengis! Science has proven many of the claims yogis have been making for a long time. I expect someday they will prove this one as well. Until then, I am not messing around with things because for one thing, it doesn't seem worth it if I have a choice and for another, I love a good "lie on your bolster" practice  Tamasic tourist - that's me! | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | tourist - 2006-02-14 12:31 AM In fact, we don't teach much around the bandhas in Iyengar yoga. The nicest description I have heard was "a gentle, inner, energetic lift" for uddiyana bandha. We have a tendency to harden the abdomen and consequently harden the organs under the muscles. This is all coming straight from India from teachers who have gynecological problems working directly with Geeta. But the yogis are incredibly pragmatic and I am sure they would tell us that if we had to be upside down in a tree for some reason while menstruating, then go ahead and do it. We are told not to do hard physical work during our periods as well, but I am sure most Indian women do not have the choice or luxury of not hauling babies and laundry and groceries around anymore than I do. So she does the work but refrains from over exerting or being inverted during her asana practice. And don't forget - Iyengar practice typically includes a 10 minute headstand, 10 minute shoulderstand and some time in halasana as well. So it is not a brief stay for us Iyengis! Science has proven many of the claims yogis have been making for a long time. I expect someday they will prove this one as well. Until then, I am not messing around with things because for one thing, it doesn't seem worth it if I have a choice and for another, I love a good "lie on your bolster" practice Tamasic tourist - that's me!hi tourist, I find it hard to believe that hardening the abdominal muscles ( which we should all be doing anyway, if we lived closer to a natural state), would harden the internal organs-this menas that being 'fitter' would actually be our downfall. I've never read any serious work which would try to make this claim. In fact, I would have thought that having a strong abdominal wall would increase the support and influence of the internal organs-if the abdominal muscles are more toned, then greater pressure would be brougth to bear on the internal organs-i.e.if you want to develop pressure inside a cylinder, then make sure the walls of the cylinder are tough enough. I take your point about doing less physical exercise during menstruation-although I've also talked to many women who depend on it for their sanity during menstruation-we're talking about experienced practicioners here-15 years plus. Hope you don't mind me being a man and questioning some of these accepted truths-I would like to optimize the health of my female students, and I think that the truth would help me to do that. I don't tend to accept what has been established as fact by the indian gurus as the truth-to often I have found them to be lies and deception-I will also never accept information from those who perpetuate the caste system, which has been responsible for so much suffering-probably more than any other belief system in the world-anyway, that's another story!! Take care Nick | ||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | Hi Nick - I understand your hesitance to accept what the yogis have said historically as gospel. I certainly have issues with some of the things they have stated as fact, as well. I think I follow the Iyengar's point of view for several reasons, one of which is that I accept them as my teachers (even though I am what BKS calls a "grandstudent" ). I also think that they have not simply taken the teachings from ancient texts and passed them on as truth. They have used the system, worked with female bodies for decades (which the ancients for all intents and purposes didn't) and have worked out a system that they feel is best for women. In Light on Yoga it says not to practice during menstruation. So that stance has obviously changed and been modified over the years. The "hardening of the organs" is one of those yoga terms which is undoubtedly not correct according to western scientific terminology. Again, I accept the wording as it pertains to the energetic body in the same way I accept the idea that a headstand brings fresh blood supply to the brain. It is not correct "by the book" but the spirit of the statement seems to be true. And I believe the Iyengars and long term Iyengar teachers who agree that the abdomen must be kept soft (for men AND women) or at least, as one senior teacher says "soft under the muscle." As far as those who need hard exercise to cope during menstruation, I am usually happy for people to do whatever it is they fell they have to do to get through these times. Pain sucks  But I am willing to bet that they could benefit from using a practice that was attuned to their cycles - pre, during and post-menstrual. I also know that many who do hard exercise all the time are addicted to the endorphins and very likely would benefit more from a break every month than the rest of us. And I do also like to look at what our lives would be like in "the natural state." It is a fascinating exercise, isn't it? BUT I honestly don't think that if we lived in the wild we would be spending an hour and a half a day sweating through a yoga routine  We would be using our bodies and doing many different activities depending on the season, the time of day etc. If you look at tribal cultures bodies they are all lean but not six-pack tight except maybe for the young adult men. And most of those cultures do restrict activities for menstruating women. Finally, my usual comment about how women feel about practice - I don't believe that most western women are capable of truly knowing intuitively what is best for their bodies just by "listening" to their bodies. We are the poster children for the mind/body disconnect and most are simply not able to "hear" what is best for thier bodies yet. It will be interesting to see what many of these women say about practice in 20 years. | ||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2006-02-15 10:37 AM Finally, my usual comment about how women feel about practice - I don't believe that most western women are capable of truly knowing intuitively what is best for their bodies just by "listening" to their bodies. We are the poster children for the mind/body disconnect and most are simply not able to "hear" what is best for thier bodies yet. It will be interesting to see what many of these women say about practice in 20 years. Tourist, How can you say that after all we've been through together, You know, this may be true for a lot of women, especially in the west. It was true for me when I was much younger growing up in this society. But, that changed drastically when I begin to see and *realize* what the hell was going on with Doctors and their relationship to the patient. I saw it was BS and decided to take my health into my own hands and that is when I ended up with a Traditional Chinese Doctor. When you watch your own Mother die from the hands of western medicine and have the kind of experience I had raising my children with their stupid nonsense, you would never walk into a hospital or MD's office ever again. I live no other way but intuitively where my own body is concerned. I don't know any other way. The Western MD mindset way is very strange and did not work for me - God know's I did give it my best shot and tried, it failed me. The only time it did not fail was when I was in trauma, but it didn't prevent me from getting to that point of trauma...another words, I don't believe they *truly* understand the word *preventative*. Anyway, I have a totally different approach to my health and feel great about it. Sure, I had to learn how to be intuitive and what to look for, but that is easy once you get the hang of it and if you are lucky enough to have someone teach it to you. Once of my best friends who now lives in California from 20 years ago, told me I look better today than I did back then. She wanted to know what I was doing. She is now interested in alternative medicine because of her Mother's influence and now she has me to influence her as well. Back to the menstruation part...I do not do Hot/Bikram yoga even in my usual moderate 85 degrre temp, while on my period. I don't get much benefit from it. I do however get the benefit on the off times, which help's me relax and take my holiday with no pressure and no stress - the way a holiday is suppose to be. Nothing has changed within the makeup of a woman's body from 5,000 years ago to the present. Being married into the Indian culture myself, I can see the difference between Indian women who still live by these principals vs. the Western women who are so screwed up with their health issues. I prefer what the old yogi's say, they were smart. Besides, some of the rules can be altered to fit modern times, but some things cannot be and I think this is one of them. But, on the other hand, a typical non-heated Bikram class, moderately and made with some slight adjustments *could* be good for the menstrual cycle, depending on the person, since there are no inversions in the series...I just prefer not to because I intuitively know what is best for me, | ||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird, I don't think it's because you are an odd ball and/or does it have anything to do with you being younger....so was I and still am, if you want to get on that level. Back when I was growing up we didn't get to voice ourselves freely like we get to do today. The good news for me is that I left home at the ripe old age of 13. I was street smart and lived with my older sister. My first job was McD's and I lied about my age and got away with it, we lived in a trusting time period back then. Because of that, I was able to make extreme adjustments to my life, environment and health issues. I told everyone else to go to hell and leave me alone - I was doing it my way!! That is what saved my life. Now, whenever I reverted back to being under someone else's rule or feeling like I was not in charge of my life, being dominated by some jerk who just wanted to control me - like an ex-husband I had once, that is always when my troubles would begin again. Worst of all is going into an MD's office and them telling you to take these pills and you say for what?? and they cannot give you an intelligent answer. I was smart enough to see the pattern and I've had 4 husbands to this date, I was also smart enough to make my own decisions and not be a scaredy cat about it either. Some people cannot make their own decisions due to fear issues. Seriously, when I first met my TCM doctor, she asked me questions that I never dreamed of someone saying to me. The lights went off and I made this connection. It was soo cool. Somebody else thought this way too, OMG, my prayers are answered. Then to have her clarify the things that I knew in my soul, was even more refreshing and made me realize how stupid I had been for allowing people and doctors to hurt me. But, I had no choice. When I was growing up, the only thing you ever heard about China was the fact that they were communists, they were going to take over the world one day, the people had slanted eyes, were very sneaky and tortured people if you were caught in their country, Not much was ever said about India except they were thought of as being like the Native American Indians...never would I have thought that I was going to be married to one, what a small world Oh well, I'm so glad we have freedom in our country, this is such an important aspect to health, I mean it too!! | ||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | ZB and Cyndi - of course you noticed that I very carefully said "most" women because there are always exceptions. And I think most yoginis are closer to their bodies than many western women, but I still think it takes a lot of work (which you two have done) to really "hear" the body and not just what we want to hear. I thought I was very atuned to my body beofre yoga because I knew all about it's aches and pains, but now I can see big huge gaps and places where I made assumptions that just weren't correct. So it is a work in progress I have yet to find a non-traditional healer that really "clicks" with me. The last naturopath I saw was pretty good, but still not quite right. I am sure that like the teacher, the healer will appear when I am ready.  | ||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | jim - I am always interested that we in the west look for a western answer to counteract advice given from easterners Yes, BKS has changed how he looks at asana and one area where he has changed the most is in dealing with women's issues. He has made (probably) all of these changes due to the wisdom and influence of his daughter Geeta, who is a master teacher in her own right as well as an Ayurvedic doctor. And she is becoming more adamant over the years that women must not invert during menstruation. When she fixes her stern eye upon a student and says in her most authoritative voice "do this at your PERIL!" there is a strong tendency to believe what she says  I haven't reviewed all of this thread so I don't recall everything said in the past. Women certainly have a right to make their own decisions, though I hope the do so with a full understanding that we are probably not talking strictly western medical concepts and we may be out of our depth in or ability to fully comprehend the reasons for these instructions. Historically, women did not practice yoga. Now we do. I think history has some catching up to do and I think we are offering ourselves up as guinea pigs to a certain extent. | ||
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