|
|
| Dear Sdaraio,
"There is no middle ground in philosophies associated with yoga--if you don't get self-realized you get reborn. Being reborn again and again and again can be perceived as being in "hell". One chooses ethical behavior because it is the right thing to do. Please explain how you see Sideshow being correct in this manner."
Being reborn and going to hell in the Catholic sense is extremely different. If you go to hell, you are stuck there for eternity. You have no way to get out. With rebirth, you won't be reborn forever, eventually you might take to the practice of yoga or something else that leads to liberation.
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
So in yoga not getting self-realized does not mean eternal condemnation and even if you are not a yogi you can get a good rebirth,
Regards. |
|
| |
|
| Hi Neel,
Then we are in agreement! 
Regards. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | belovedofthegod - 2005-10-26 1:40 PM
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
So in yoga not getting self-realized does not mean eternal condemnation and even if you are not a yogi you can get a good rebirth,
Regards.
Dear BOTG,
That is not exactly 100% correct. You may not get a better re-birth next life if you are so called *being good*, which is a personal matter and don't forget who determines what is good and bad..there is NO guarantee, you might get perfect life instead on the next life due to having your merit and then maybe the next life after that get worse re-birth. |
|
| |
|
| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-26 10:40 AM
Being reborn and going to hell in the Catholic sense is extremely different. If you go to hell, you are stuck there for eternity. You have no way to get out. With rebirth, you won't be reborn forever, eventually you might take to the practice of yoga or something else that leads to liberation.
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
Beloved,
Not to get too pedantic here--I think this is a matter of interpretation. Consider this:
According to Luke 16:19-28 (Lazarus and Dives) nobody can pass from Hell to Heaven or vice versa, and fire is not the only tormentor, thirst being another, and more that are not described; in this biblical passage it is also mentioned that the souls that are in Hell can see those that are in Heaven and vice versa, but nothing is said of the sight of God; those that are in Hell can see the happiness reigning in Heaven, and those in Heaven do not feel compassion for the others in Hell. It should be noted, however, that Jesus tells this story as a parable, and its meaning may not literally define the existence in the afterlife, but instead serve as a lesson about the dangers of wealth and the unwillingness to listen to God.
Pope John Paul II said that to correctly interpret hell we need to see it as a state of dissasociation with god rather than an actual place. Using this interpretation it is rather like being reborn over and over until we find our association with god.
I enjoy the discussion!
Stacey |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | That's so funny Stacey that you brought this up. When I was a little girl, my parents made us go to this baptist church. In fact, I even attended the private school associated with this church until the 8th grade. Once we had to watch this horrifying movie about hell. It showed everything like how you got thrown into it, what happened and so on. It was real life. You want to talk about a major impact that had on my mind when I was a child. Frankly, all this Christianity is BS from someone who grew up listening to this nonsense and the crap that gets portrayed as truth - all in the name of GOD. This is just a way that man has figured out how to control other people's minds and how to control and gain power in general. I am so happy and grateful that I found a spiritual path and had the guts to break out of the Christian faith a long time ago and tell them to stick it. (Not me literally telling them, but breaking free in my mind - KNOWING that all that was a bunch of crap) and not beneficial to me as a human being. There was nothing in the church that supported my mind, body and spirit and I fail to see anyone associated with the church having a sense of balance in that regard either. They are so full of themselves and are hypocrites. I have never once met one single Christian that was totally Egoless and Christlike - Never! But I can tell you this much, I have met some Eastern Guru's that definitely were and they walked their talk as living examples of what I knew I wanted to be like. Not to mention the soul connection with these guru's and how powerful that can be. I never felt that kind of power in a Christian Church. Take care,
Cyndi |
|
| |
|
| Cyndi- Most religions have some sort of exoteric teachings designed to keep people's more baser/self instincts in line. I don't really have a problem with that, but when that's all they have I think there's a problem. I can't really speak to your experiences with various religious leaders, but I think that there are good people involved in all branches. Some of the nicest, and some of the nastiest people I've even met, I met in Church. Unfortunately, it seems to be the pushy, annoying ones who are making all the waves.
I also think that part of the problem with the Christian approach is that everybody feels like they _should_ go. People who feel like they _should_ go to yoga generally stop coming. So you tend to get the remainder who really enjoy what they're doing, and get something out of it. Same thing with a lot of Eastern religions, there just isn't that level of _should_ involved. So the people who are into it, are there because they're getting something out of it directly. It's not a social club in disguse.
|
|
| |
|
| Hey Cindy! I'm so glad you responded to my post--we finally get to meet virtually. Hi! I love your new avatar and appreciate your perspective on these boards.
If we are trying to have a philosophical conversation then I think we have to take the man made "church" institution out of the picture. Religious institutions are fallible because they are made by people and people are fallible. I was interested in Sideshow's original question of "killing God" and looking at where we find God in its many manifestation through religous texts and then Beloved got me going.
Anyway-I'm in agreement--church as institution is nuts. Luckily, it was NEVER forced on me--the moment I said--I'm not going--I never had to go again. No guilt, no questions, no pushing. How amazing is that?
Stacey |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Stacey,
Glad to meet you too - virtually?? Okay, so yes we can all agree that it is the institution, I think? My Indian husband asked me the other day when my Father gave me that book that was bashing Hinduism and Buddhism, written by an Indian, he asked, "How come in Christianity Jesus was the only one enlightened?" In our culture there we have so many enlightened persons. To me that really says quite a bit. In fact, in Christianity, if you are enlightened you are condemed and evil, in other cultures, it is revered and sacred. That's a relief for a person like me,  I always felt like I was doomed to hell forever when I was forced into religion growing up. I had a taste of it the other day spending time with my family. I see their suffering and all I can do is be an example. That in itself blows their minds and the other thing that blows them away is that for my age I look 20 years younger and healthier than they do. That Bikram yoga sure does reverse the aging process, 
P.S. Stacey, I have to tell you this. When I was growing up in the Christian church/school, in 3rd and 4th grade my best friend's name was Stacey.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-10-27 9:29 AM
|
|
| |
|
| Wow! 3 pages all on my little prose!?? im shocked....
Well onto it, Im going to hopefully try to make some points but after reading all the replies my head is swimming a bit....
God is just a big kid with an antfarm I heard that quote on a movie the other day, and honestly felt a bit of irony wash over me and gave myself a chuckle...I myself was never forced by my parents to apply my faith to any strict religious code. Rather my mother ( who took witchcraft courses throughout college... ) Made me go to a lutheran church up through my confirmation, and that very same day after church she sat me down and said, i have given you a religious foundation its totally up to you what path you choose. I DID continue on with the "church" thing for about another year or so, and basically found out, even if you were inside the walls of a church where you should be accepted as you are; full of sin and condemed unless you repent....almost every other person's "god" was still better than yours. unless you were more hypocritical than the last person. Now, I really REALLY REALLY was open minded about religion and such...I ended up talking with one of the youth leaders at a church function about why he ended up talking over coffee with a satanist while doing mission work in sweden, and he said
"because they are still people, and human, and I will still treat them how would want to be treated, just because our religions are different doesnt make him less of a person."
I say : thats a good way to look at things.
The conversation goes on, and i end up saying ( within about 5 minutes of the satanist thing ) Im not sure what i believe which is why im going to these church functions, to try to find my own answers....
at this point he blatantly just said "you will be going to hell unless you accept jesus into your heart"
That night at the talent show, he did a skit with some kids about a bus crash, and the last kid didnt get into heaven even though he went to church with his (now)dead friends...because the guy playing st. peter says, you wont get into heaven because you didnt accept jesus into your heart.....
Im totally like WTF is that, a direct attack on me, because im here QUESTIONING which is exactly what jesus was accepting and understanding of?
Needless to say i was done after that.
Im sure the educated lot such as yourselves are aware that over 90% of the world's war are stemmed from religion...ideally whose religion/god is better.
I ended up for a while under a psuedo-theory that devil worship or satanism ( which, satanism is NOT the same thing as devil worship... ) was better to have as a religion than having NO belief system at all. My justification was at least you are getting something out of your existance and have an idea of where you are going to end up when the flame of your life gets extinguished.
I personally dont find the bible in any of its current forms anything but someone elses interpritation of what god should be: King James ( I.E. the king james version ) had his scholars beheaded if they did not write the bible in the way he wanted it written.
I have heard (and gotten confirmation from a number of good religious sources) that jesus went and studied with the Jewish mystics for YEARS before even ever having disciples.
Speaking of Jesus; here is what I think ( at least right now.. ) He was a very kind and caring man full of light, and love, however he was the worlds first and greatest prestitigitator ( i.e. illusionist ) however he used his "magic" to show the world how it can be a better place through compassion, or even he used his skill as a tool for another means of enlightement.
As far as these ideas becoming organized and requestioning you as a member of the elite ones that will gain entrance into heaven ( bumper sticker: In case of Rapture this car will lose its driver! ) by putting your money into the coffers every sunday as a means to hopefully buy your way in....is the god that man created in HIS image.....
k, i went off there for a bit...sorry...but it happens.... |
|
| |
|
| There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
actually, there are numerous 'middle grounds' in catholicism from various levels of hell, to limbo, to purgatory, and then into the different 'layers' of heaven (via beatification). this is where the idea 'seventh heaven' comes from.
it is commonly believed that those people who are 'good people' but not catholic/christian/believers are generally 'in limbo.' this theologically takes two forms--either a place of eternal rest or sleep or it's a place that one can move out of and into purgatory, a space in the afterlife where one works on or is purged of sins and made ready for the process of beatification and acceptance into heaven. Most catholics/christians/believers who are not self realized/actualized go into various stages of purgatory in preparation for beatification. And many people of other religions who are not christian/catholic/etc go into purgatory as well.
and, even more uniquely, there are ideas in catholicism that you can work your way out of hell, etc. and, even better, that none of these things exist as places, but rather as states of being, and therefore one can always move between them depending upon our perspective, our work, etc.
for me personally, and as is accepted by the vatican, it is largely a reflection of the nature of the work that we must do for enlightenment--we have to face our inner hells, limbos, purgatories, and embrace our inner heaven, our enlightenment. it's not an easy task.
to me, the eastern idea of multiple lives and the western ideas of the afterlife are mirrors: one mirror reflects that one is born again and has multiple lives to learn lessons; the other mirror reflects that after this life, there is still a process of learning that takes place such that one can eventually become enlightened. both show the process of spiritual discipline to enlightenment and notice the nature and difficulty of the work involved--that some of us have to work out of harder and darker places than others (consider someone trying to overcome severe drug addiction--the drug addiction was the hell they were coming out of, the process of recovery is the purgatory, and in time, they'll self actuallize and live in a heavenly, enlightened state). |
|
| |
|
| I was always told purgatory was a place you sit and wait until the other living family members have paid enough to the catholic church so that your way is bought into heaven....
I like the last paragraph you typed up there zoey...er zoebird... |
|
| |
|
| now that i've read the whole stream, i not entirely sure how to respond to it.
first, i think it is ok to say that most of the world's wars are fought over wealth and power, with religion being used as an excuse or a backdrop (as is happening now with the US government and the situation with the 'axis of evil' or whatever 'they're' calling it these days). it seems a fairly thin veil in regards to the current wars, as they are obviously about power, money, and oil, and not about god, weapons of mass destruction, or liberating people for democracy or peace or whatever other propagandist information is tossed around.
second, i can completely understand that people have had negative experiences with individual christians and with christian churches and therefore this, to them, reflects christians and christianity as a whole. since it is the dominant faith practice in the west, this is not surprising. in the east, many of my friends who are from there (india, pakistan, vietnam, laos, thailand, china, japan, and korea) say that they have the same problem with buddhism, hinduism, islam, and a myriad of other specialized traditions from the region. many of them 'went to services' without actually believing in what they were doing or understanding it. many of them were afraid of the more extreme images of suffering or difficulty in their culture (i mean, quite frankly, Kali can be daunting). many of them have been in corrupt groups and have also met corrupt leaders and individuals in their eastern communities. Essentially, their experience is reflected here, just switch the religious name from 'christianity' to whatever else (any other religion).
and, in light of this experience, they often become christians. for many of us who value the eastern religions so highly (and often so romanticly) wonder why they become christians--often the same way that they wonder why a christian would become buddhist (or whatever else). And it's not based in fear of hell or whatever else, but rather 'why would you join something that isn't peaceful?" this was a direct question from a friend of mine, who told me about a particularly violent and corrupt buddhist organization in japan--which put her off of that religion forever. She became catholic because she said "i've never felt more at peace than when i am participating in mass. every catholic that i have met has always been smiling, giving, and deeply peaceful and compassionate. this is everything that buddhism promised, but never gave. here it is, in catholicism, so of course i joined!" it really stayed with me.
but, i also have to beg the question about religion for myself, considering i have as much love for catholicism (and thereby christianity) as i do for islam, judaism, buddhism, hinduism/vedanta, and a myriad of other practices. Of course, i cannot practice all of them, but i find that i am deeply informed by them (as i do read various scriptures, sing various songs, say various prayers, etc) and i also adopt certain ideas and practices from each of them that i then incorporate into my catholic practices. i thereby consider myself essentially catholic, who is also buddhist who also practices yoga.
i also dislike being held in disdain for maintaining my faith practice in christianity. i, too, find it to be a valuable practice in which Jesus calls us to enlightenment, in which our elders call us to enlightenment. Many of our mystics and our elders and our saints were enlightened, loving, and beloved people--and i certainly seek to be like them and emulate them. Of course, i find people like this in all religions, just as i find corrupt people in all religions. Instead of blaming the religion, though, i tend to put the responsibility on the individual.
and certainly, i don't fault anyone for leaving. certainly, i do not believe that christianity is for everyone nor is it important for everyone to be christian in order to find enlightenment or 'go to heaven' (though, again, i don't necessarily believe in heaven as a place, so much as the nondual state with God). i do not believe that people who have chosen other paths are wrong. |
|
| |
|
| no, that is incorrect. purgatory is the place in the afterlife where you are purged of your sins before you can enter heaven. this is important since no sin can enter heaven. there have been many various depictions of this, but the easiest to grasp is probably CS Lewis's "The Great Divorce" which is a great concept of heaven, hell, and purgatory, IMO. Lewis was, of course, a catholic and many of his works are well loved.
for me, if purgatory is a place, i think of it as councelling. when i was in councelling, i would go to an office where my councellor was and talk about what i did, what i was doing, what happened to me, how i responded, how i continue to respond. My councellor would ask pointed questions, offer me homework exercises, and away i would go to work on my stuff. i was able to undo a lot of negative behavoir patterns and harmful things through that, which allowed me to live a happier life.
so, purgatory is, for me, that time with God or whomever when i sit and go through where i was going awry and where i was going right and how maybe i didn't go far enough into that--and why. and then undoing that--so that i'm truly liberated to be my Self.
but then, again, it's more of a state, because during that time in councelling (and like now even though i'm nto in councelling, but i do confession and i rely on the contemplative process) it was a lot of work and self reflection and personal striving to do better and be better and be mySelf more and more so that i could be more for my Self and more for the world--so that i could be realized and actuallized. I think that's what God wants for us in this lifetime (or any lifetime) which is why the spiritual disciplines are so important.
but, as to the concept of your living families and money and all of that, it's not entirely off the marker. intercessory prayer is powerful and i do pray for those who have departed and those in purgatory that they, too, may find their way to their Self and all of that, and to help ease their difficulty and struggle by sending them peace and comfort in their time of work and need.
as to the nature and use of indulgences, since (unless i read wrong) you were raised lutheran, this is something that was abused in luther's time and one of his primary grievences against the church (and rightfully so when abused), but the idea of an indulgence isn't foreign, new, or even inappropriate--in fact it comes from much older traditions and has it's mystic/esoteric importance--but luther was right about it being used wrong. Sadly, this has been taken out of it's context to mean that the whole 'indulgence' process is wrong and of course others jumped on that bandwagon and now there's tons of misinformation about it. An indulgence is a gift to the divine to help oneself or others--and this gift can be any sort of sacrifice or austerity. this is a common yogic practice (austerities for a boon), but when abused it can go awry.
indulgences can help those in purgatory (literal or figurative), as they can help any individual or group. one of my 'indulgences' that i offer is the process of adoration of the eucharist (the transubstantiated body of christ) in an overnite process which requires me to stay up and in an alert state of prayer for many hours. This is not an easy task for me on any level, but i know that my question or need will be indulged when i preform these austerities. again, it's reflected in other cultures as well. |
|
| |
|
| She became catholic because she said "i've never felt more at peacethan when i am participating in mass. every catholic that i have methas always been smiling, giving, and deeply peaceful and compassionate.this is everything that buddhism promised, but never gave. here it is,in catholicism, so of course i joined!" it really stayed with me.
That's a very interesting observation. More importantly, she joined for the best reason of all, it worked for her. All to often the people in their culture's religious centers are going to be the people who have taken what they have been given, instead of doing the heavy lifting of examining and trying things out for themselves. If I ever return to church, I think I will be a 100% better Christian, because I will want to be there, and will have made an active and definite choice to be there.
Zoebird, since you've seen the way the dominate religion works in other cultures, do you also find the same level of "pushiness", and self righteousness that too many Christians in this culture exhibit? I've often wondered if this is something inherent in the religion itself, the sub-culture that's grown around it, or something to do with being the dominant religion. I just don't hear the same call to convert people, or our way is the only way in other religions. Maybe you're just going to have these sorts of things in any religion, and I'm just more familiar with Christianity.
|
|
| |
|
| Cyndi - 2005-10-27 6:26 AM
Hey Stacey,
Glad to meet you too - virtually?? As in, not in person but in a virtual space--like computerland
P.S. Stacey, I have to tell you this. When I was growing up in the Christian church/school, in 3rd and 4th grade my best friend's name was Stacey.  ! Stacey |
|
| |
|
|
Zoebird, since you've seen the way the dominate religion works in other cultures, do you also find the same level of "pushiness", and self righteousness that too many Christians in this culture exhibit? I've often wondered if this is something inherent in the religion itself, the sub-culture that's grown around it, or something to do with being the dominant religion. I just don't hear the same call to convert people, or our way is the only way in other religions. Maybe you're just going to have these sorts of things in any religion, and I'm just more familiar with Christianity.
i would have to say yes, though i have not necessarily travelled to those nations, i have heard people of all religions speak about how those who do not embrace certain religious traditions will struggle with their path to enlightenment. I have also heard those in all religions--including christianity--who say what most of us are saying here, that one should choose the path that works for them. it really does exist 'both ways' in most religions.
what i find interesting in my own experience is that as a yoga teacher, a catholic, a buddhist practitioner for 15 years, and also one who is rather 'witchy' and leans on the wisdom of many traditions and faith practices is that i continually get 'you're going to hell' (in so many terms) from ALL sides. I've had buddhists tell me that i'm not really buddhist. Yoga practitioners tell me that i'm delusional because i embrace other traditions and i'm not 'purely' practicing yoga (vedanta, hinduism, jainism etc). i've had catholics tell me i'm not catholic, christians tell me i'm not christian, etc etc etc. I think you get the idea.
Each one of these persons or small groups of people were attempting to convince me to abandon things that work for me, that i value and love, for their singular path. Certainly, i understand the difficulty that one can see in following multiple disciplines. But, i do not see a multiplicity in my practice so much as an inherent cohesion based on that for which i am striving, as well as the intimate relationship with the Divine that i have forged over these many years of seeking an intimate relationship the Divine. This really guides where i go above all other things, and i often feel lead to the integrative and comparitive practice of multiple religious traditions. So, it is perfectly natural and certainly not hellish or purgatorial.
So, essentially, yes i do hear it from all sides--to choose their way over others.
Edited by zoebird 2005-10-29 12:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-10-29 12:26 PM
what i find interesting in my own experience is that as a yoga teacher, a catholic, a buddhist practitioner for 15 years, and also one who is rather 'witchy' and leans on the wisdom of many traditions and faith practices is that i continually get 'you're going to hell' (in so many terms) from ALL sides. I've had buddhists tell me that i'm not really buddhist. Yoga practitioners tell me that i'm delusional because i embrace other traditions and i'm not 'purely' practicing yoga (vedanta, hinduism, jainism etc). i've had catholics tell me i'm not catholic, christians tell me i'm not christian, etc etc etc. I think you get the idea.
Zoebird,
Perhaps you are NOT anything, maybe all those people are right to some degree. I wouldn't let it bother me, there is a reason why some of us have been exposed, per se, to all types of religions and spirituality. You should study and read some of Sathya Sai Baba's material..he supports people like us and you would be so surprised at what you discover. Besides, all the *real* guru's I've been around do not say things like that - period, cause they know what we know. Take care,
Cyndi |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| I do wonder why some people are more exposed to differing religious backgrounds than others. My DD has been in contact with a lot of different religious schools of thought and I can't help feeling that there is a reason for it. When she was very young she had a friend who took her to a mainstream protestant Sunday School, then in elementary school her best friend was from a family who was very much involved in the Salvation Army, middle school were the the Jehovah's Witness years, then in high school she hung around with some great kids who are Mormons. Next thing you know, not long out of high school she meets her first serious boyfriend who is Jewish! From a family where dad worships at the altar of Sport and mom who thinks you just honour all traditions and live a moral, ethical life, this kid was not going to get this education at home Interesting, eh? |
|
| |
|
| Hi Cyndi,
"That is not exactly 100% correct. You may not get a better re-birth next life if you are so called *being good*, which is a personal matter and don't forget who determines what is good and bad..there is NO guarantee, you might get perfect life instead on the next life due to having your merit and then maybe the next life after that get worse re-birth."
I was simplifying when I said "being good". In reality your rebirth is said to be determined in large part by the desire one most strongly wants to fullfill. The mind will pick the body that best can carry out what it desires the most. With this the strength of awareness also is important of course. The life after that you could get a worse rebirth. a better rebirth, a similar rebirth or no rebirth at all.
Hi Sdaraio,
This kind of interpretation is already better but the main problem remains as far as I can see...
"Pope John Paul II said that to correctly interpret hell we need to see it as a state of dissasociation with god rather than an actual place. Using this interpretation it is rather like being reborn over and over until we find our association with god."
But thats the key difference, finding association with god. If you are in hell, you cannot "pass to heaven" as you say, so you cannot ever find association with god - the suffering from dissociation will remain eternally. In philosophies associated with Yoga, you can and you will eventually find this association.
For the same reason, once your in this state of dissociation called hell, it doesn't make any difference whether you were a mass-murder or a non-believing saint. In Yoga, positively-motivated action will bring about your association with god more quickly so its very useful whether you practice yoga or not,
Regards. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-29 3:24 But thats the key difference, finding association with god. If you are in hell, you cannot "pass to heaven" as you say, so you cannot ever find association with god - the suffering from dissociation will remain eternally. .....
For the same reason, once your in this state of dissociation called hell, it doesn't make any difference whether you were a mass-murder or a non-believing saint.
And this, I imagine, is why so many former church-going Christians have gone to different belief systems. That, along with the idea that the mass murderer and the non-believing saint can each atone and confess to God on their death beds and still get into heaven. Not that this is exclusive to Christians. I know there are many Buddhists (etc.) who live very unethical lives and still expect a good result (afterlife, whatever) because they appeared to live a pious life. The difference is that we know and they know that all their actions in their lives will be held accountable, not just those they chose to show to the world. |
|
| |
|
| Zoebird- Have you gotten any better at picking out the ones who are going to tell you you're going to <insert religious penalty here> yet? Is there a certain personality type, or some sort of action that trigger this sort of thing. Personally, I feel I've been a little to timid, since I've never been thrown out of a religious group, guess I need to try harder. I'm going to make sure my next guru has been tossed out of multiple congregations.
I agree with Glenda, there are some serious loopholes in the various religious laws. Which I think is a huge hint that they're not necessarily the exact will of god. This is part of the reason I'm not to worried about what the various authorities try to prove. Generally they're interpretation conflicts with something else, which just shows me that somebody's wrong, and it can't be God, if there is such a person.
|
|
| |
|
| GJ:
am i any better at picking out the types? no, not really. here's my thing. i love to talk about religion in general, about personal growth and expression, and abuot my experience. in order to find like-minded people, i have to be bold enough to express my opinion in groups where some or all or most of the people may be completely put off by the way i go about it or whatever.
but, the thing is this. Lets say you asked me "hey, do you believe in God?" how would i answer that? i can co easy--yes, no, whatever. i can go difficult--how are you defining god, what do you want to know, etc. usualy, i take a quick intuitive listen and say--ok, how to respond? and then i respond accordingly.
now, i've never been kicked out of a church. it simply hasn't happened. technically, i suppose i cuold be excommunicated and all that, but it's a whole lot of fuss over nothing and there's nothing 'uncatholic' about what i'm doing. so, no one has a problem. But say i go to catholic bible study. they start talking about this or that. that's cool, i dig theology and scripture study--heck, it's why i dig luther so much. i mean, the dude was onto something and it works for me. i don't need to be lutheran to get it. but anyway.
so, someone comes in and says 'no, this is the way it is' and gets uppity about my job or the fact that i'm wearing a buddhist prayer wheel (which i twirl constantly) on my necklace or whatever else. usually, i'm pretty open abotu where i am and what i'm doing, and others see that as an opportunity to confront me or save me or whatever else.
oh, and i don't back off. i'd rather engage, because then we can learn from each other. i always gain something from the experience.
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-10-30 1:37 PM
now, i've never been kicked out of a church. it simply hasn't happened. technically, i suppose i cuold be excommunicated and all that, but it's a whole lot of fuss over nothing and there's nothing 'uncatholic' about what i'm doing. so, no one has a problem
Oh Zoey,
That's nothing, wait till you get kicked out of a Buddhist Temple, YES, that did happen to me by Buddhist Americans, |
|
| |
|
| i've been asked to leave various smaller groups--like bible study groups or whatever. that's no big deal. and i ultimately left a local buddhist meditation group because i felt that they were being really pushy about me not doing all the catholic/yoga/whatever stuff. so, my husband and i shook tail feathers out of that one.
maybe i just leave before i'm asked! |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, I was never asked to leave, the Americans just made it so unbearable that I had no choice but to leave. It's really funny, the monks would call me up and say come get us, we want to spend a week at your house, or I'd drive them to the other Buddhist temple in NYC where they were very happy and were around other Tibetans. I think people are just plain ignorant and stupid when it comes to religion...and it seems like its getting worse and worse, which is why I stay at home and I hate organizations of any kind,  |
|
| |
phillisophically challenged
