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| A look into phillosophy, twisted, contorted, chewed up, and spit back out.
How would you start a topic on philosophy? would you be philisophical? I truly am puzzled at why you can contain intrinsic thoughts into a mold labled philosophy.
Can philosophy define god? Can god define you? are you your master's keeper or do you keep yourself and invite the light of life into your psyche?
Can one say they dont believe in "the devil" ( aka satan, belzeebub, lucifer ) and still hold themselves to christian values?
I think not, without the recognition and belief in one, you cannot have the other, with no bad there is no good, with no light, there is no darkness. Its all a tool of fear for those less of themselves.
God is God, lost is lost, and found is found. can you be found without knowing you were lost? Sure! Can god be God version 2.0 while the rest of the world only uses version 1.2b? Lets ask microsoft.
I think all paths walked of divinity lead to the same end. Your path is your own, you set your way and follow along when your path goes dark will your light be big enough to show you the way? The end of the path is the end for us all, doors await, choose your destiny and only then will you know where you are.
God is the only thing that has been killed more times, or so YOU as the good christian say. The druids killed god, yet they were before god, did god create man? druids were man, man killed the druids for God. God is nothing more than nothing, if you shook gods hand how would you know you found truth? If you found truth how do you know it came from YOUR GOD? Your REALm? your reality?
Lets kill god....
Lets move on......we have more important things to do, like drink starbucks and work dead end jobs where we sit in a cubicle and pray to the gods of burger king and pentium and feed the gluttonous pig that only exanquinates our existence.
Insert being into existance? twenty five cents a play....
Will you continune when your intergalactic crusade is crushed by a mothership of a bigger god?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | sideshow - 2005-10-22 3:11 PM
Can one say they dont believe in "the devil" ( aka satan, belzeebub, lucifer ) and still hold themselves to christian values?
I think not, without the recognition and belief in one, you cannot have the other, with no bad there is no good, with no light, there is no darkness. Its all a tool of fear for those less of themselves.
I guess that Satan is a fairly deeply embedded element of Christianity. He's clearly mentioned
in both the old and new testament (I just love the language surrounding him in the Book of
Job). So, I guess for consistency's sake, you'd have to accept Satan as a part of accepting
the Christian faith.
On the other hand, you can certainly discuss good and evil among men, without any
necessity to have a good god and a bad competitor. Christian values encompass
many values that are common to other religions and ethical systems. Six of the Ten
Commandments, for example, can be found in almost every religion in one form
or another. So, I think it is possible to practice "christian values" without any belief
in Satan.
From the KJV...
1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
1:10
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
1:11
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
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| Dear Sideshow,
I must confess that I did not exactly understand what you were trying to say. And, then when Brother BG replied, I do not know whether that is a response to what you wrote. However, if I only look at one of your statements which says something like: Kill god, we have more important things to do like starbucks (which I like myself), etc.
I am guessing that you are saying that people have intentionally created Philosophy and that can be given up and they can move on with things like Starbucks, etc. whatever.
No, that is not true. People have not intentionally created philosophy, exactly same as people have not intentionally created air for breathing, or people have not intentionally started breathing. Yes, people have intentionally found deep breathing exercises, aerobic exercises, etc. But that too, in a particular angle of looking at it. It can be said, that they automatically had to find these exercises, thus they did not intentionally did so. In other words,
all philosophical things automatically happen. This is because, each person, without exception, including the one who moves on with Starbucks, ultimately tries to find something which gives permanent peace, or inner peace or whatever you call it. Then, one goes in search of spirituality, and all philosophy unfolds, or one takes it from those who have found such a thing, or from those whom that person believes that they found such a thing.
Since, we talk about Sage Patanjali and Yoga on this board a lot, let me quote some of his sutras....
parinamatapasanskardukhkhairgunavrittivirodhachcha dukhameva sarvam vivekinah...
for a real wise person who has reached discrimnation of thinking, everythig in the material world seems to be sorrowful...
Lastly, for the one who moves on with Starbucks, there is no need of Philosophy. But, for the one who is hooked on to Philosophy, starbucks will not much moving!
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| kulkarnn - 2005-10-22 11:14 PMSince, we talk about Sage Patanjali and Yoga on this board a lot, let me quote some of his sutras....parinamatapasanskardukhkhairgunavrittivirodhachcha dukhameva sarvam vivekinah...for a real wise person who has reached discrimnation of thinking, everythig in the material world seems to be sorrowful...
Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?
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| sideshow - 2005-10-22 3:11 PM
Lets kill god....
And you call ME subversive? |
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| GJ: Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?
Patanjali Yoga Sutras, 300 Before Christ, Chapter II, On the Practice. called Sadhanapada.
I can probably quote many places where this logic appears. But, that is not necessary.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You know what??? You guys need to have this book that my Father's Baptist preacher gave to me over the weekend. After attending a funeral last year and having a very *brief* phillysophical discussion about my husband's Hindu background, my Father's preacher went out and bought me the book "Jesus among other God's" by Ravi Zacharias. They presented me with this copy over the weekend at my Father's birthday party. After reading several paragraph's throughout the book, I simply cannot indulge myself in it for lack of time and interest....although, I do love the Buddha and dieties on the front cover...that was put together very nicely  IF anyone is interested in my copy, they are certainly welcomed to it as it seems to be along the lines of some of the discussions that I've seen here on this forum regarding Christians doing Yoga. |
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| ...The lets kill god thing, either wasnt put into the correct context by me, or was taken out of context (ala by you guys)
It was sorta metaphorical ( going along with the starbucks and the worshipping of burger king and such ) sorta meaning if you took god out of the equation would people even notice as they go about their daily(and busy) lives? ...well lets say...the "idea" of god.
I agree with you BG as far as someone can have christian values with no belief in "satan" or whomever, and the 10 commandments are mostly an universal guide to living a good life, like you were saying.
I guess my thing ultimately is, as you were saying other religions may teach living a good life and not harming others, but "GOD" wont accept you if you into heaven ( or wherever ) after you die if you dont accept his son in your heart. I find this very hypocritical at most....I mean, christianity is telling me that even a buddhist monk who has never killed a bug in his entire life(lives) will not get into heaven ( if indeed reincarnation isnt an option ) all because his belief system is different? I think Im calling bull on that. There is a place of light and love people go to. this goes to that whole Druid thing...It can be a buch of different religions I just picked druids mostly cuz alot of christian holidays are done during pagan holidays, which was done on purpose in order to help convert the druids to catholisiscim ( Christmas = Yuletide, Easter=Sprint Solstice etc... ).
Do I believe in god personally? Well, no...I believe in a higher being, however i believe that its beyond the use of a name such as "god". I also feel that all beliefs lead to a higher existance, but that existance echoes back what you did with your life here.
But I think ive typed enough, I thought there was something else I was gonna say...but I cannot remember...
But before anyone takes a great offense at what i wrote, keep in mind it was a philosophical thing, it questioned or was to make u guys say...think a bit...granted I know not all christian faiths are as described above, but alot of em do seem to be.....okay ummm..i guess if i remember ill add later....
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| kulkarnn - 2005-10-23 10:03 PMGJ: Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?Patanjali Yoga Sutras, 300 Before Christ, Chapter II, On the Practice. called Sadhanapada.I can probably quote many places where this logic appears. But, that is not necessary.Neel Kulkarniwww.authenticyoga.org
Thanks neel. Actually I was thinking about "For in much wisdom is much grief; and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow" which is a direct quote from Ecclesiastes 1:18, supposedly written by King Solomon.
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| Hi Greenjellow,
The Patanjali passage and Ecclesiastes are saying completely different things though the wording can be misleading. In the Ecclesiate passage, Solomon is trying to get wisdom about all things "under heaven". After doing this, he realizes that more wisdom just brought more sorrow.
Patanjali would never say that more wisdom brings sorrow (unless what is regarded as wisdom is not really wisdom - this is kind of implied in the Ecclesiastes passage too). In fact wisdom [in particular rtambara prajna from nirvichara samapatti and viveka-khyati (distinction between Self and non-Self)] is very important in Patanjali's system. What Patanjali is saying in Neel's quote is that someone who gets wiser sees that even things that normal people consider pleasurable really is just future suffering. This is the same thing essentially as the Buddha's first noble truth. It doesn't mean that he is suffering more than he was before, he is in fact suffering much less,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-24 1:38 PM
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| Actually I think they're saying the same thing. That the more you study the situation, the more apparent the suffering becomes. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | No, GJ, not so. To understand the truth and the nature of all things is not suffering at all. When you are new to this practice it just seems like it, and what a humbling experience it is to see that no matter how you spin your wheels to justify or make suffering disappear, Suffering is due to Ignorance...what is amazing to me is to watch people come out of what they thought was suffering back into more suffering all because they failed to see the bigger picture and the reality of nature. This is happening every single moment in governement and polital issues in every nation. It is happening in the medical and technical industries as they *try* to eliminate suffering due to DIS-EASES and Pollution of the planet. They fix a problem only to discover the one they thought was fixed a couple of years ago has created another one. This is the reality of human nature. I got a big taste of it at my relatives house this weekend.
The challenge I have is how to co-exists with humans who fail to understand this concept as it seems to be worse and worse as we progress or should I say regress on this planet. This is what the North American Native Indians feared so many hundreds of years ago,  |
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| Hey Sister Cyndi:
How did this lead you to all the political struggle and happenings, and suffering due to it. The sage Patanjali is saying, as I quoted before and correctly repeated by BelovedOfGod, that ...
everything in the universe, which a person aspires seems to bring suffering in the end. Suffering does not mean pain in the neck, but a kind of state of dissatisfaction, or a state of incomplete satisfaction. However, a person is actually trying to obtain a complete satisfaction (not in a business sense, but in a spritual or at least mental sense).
parinaamataapsanskaardhukhkhair gunavrittiviridhachcha dukhkhameva sarvam vivekinah.
This is for a vivekin person, who has developed discrimination (NOT ritambhara prajna, which is a very advanced stage). For others these things still bring pleasures.
krutaartham api nashtamapyanashtam tadanyasadharanatvat. .. for a completely satisfied person or realized person, the purpose of nature is satisfied, and the drushyam, that is play of nature is nashtam.. that is non-existent, whereas for others it is anashtam.. means it exists for them.
I do not know what King Solomon is saying, so I would not comment on it. Thus, what the Sage patanjali is saying is mainly in relation to a person who is practicing for spiritual liberation, and for his context. Not so much about social or political context.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| Well, as I understand it, King Solomon comes to the conclusion that everything is meaningless w/o god. This is after a very long list of various "pleasurable" activities, so it appears that they are in agreement. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Dear Brother Neel,
How did that lead me to all the political struggle and happenings...??? You are asking a very loaded question and all I have time for is in a nutshell...here goes. My belief as a Yoga Aspirant is that we are not seperate from external and internal things, which includes every aspect of our planet, the happenings whether they be political or not political, people - everything. They intertwine and are very much connected together. Of course this is not to say that I am a participant in most of the happenings and such, but I am very much connected to this realm with having children and family, I do not seperate my life from what already exists and what is happening in the world today - and I am a player to some degree. So, therefore, when you quoted Patanjali about suffering, I see this in everything that exists in the world today. The suffering part in relation to politics and such is due to man's ignorance and trying their hand to fix it. Like everytime we elect a President, they have good intentions, but somewhere along the line the truth is revealed and it is impossible to have any satisfaction because the mess is too big to clean up. If an enlightened person were put in place as a leader of this world it would be a totally different conversation.
I realize this may not make any sense to you, maybe, but, think about the Native American Indians as an example. All they had back then to live on was the land, nature and dealing with their tribes. All tribes were different and sure they fought like hell at times over their differences....but, they didn't have all this garbage and all the diversity of people and their minds to deal with like we do today. They lived by a certain code and they lived peacefully and sometimes not so peacefully but manageable between the elder's amongst themselves for all those years. The suffering that is happening in today's world and some of the suffering back then among the Native Americans is the very exact kind of suffering that Patanjali was talking about. The Native American Indian Elder's also knew about this kind of suffering and is the reason they lived on the land the way they did and why the earth lasted so much longer without all the pollution and they had trees and forests. So, that is it in a nutshell. Did you understand me Neelbhai?? |
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| sideshow - 2005-10-24 9:01
I guess my thing ultimately is, as you were saying other religions may teach living a good life and not harming others, but "GOD" wont accept you if you into heaven ( or wherever ) after you die if you dont accept his son in your heart. I find this very hypocritical at most....I mean, christianity is telling me that even a buddhist monk who has never killed a bug in his entire life(lives) will not get into heaven ( if indeed reincarnation isnt an option ) all because his belief system is different? I think Im calling bull on that. There is a place of light and love people go to.
My beloved mother was a devout Roman Catholic. Whatever picture was just conjured in your mind about her is undoubtably wrong. My mother was an exeedingly hip, contemporary, super-learned woman who worked in a cancer research lab the last 20 years of her life with deep conviction around her faith. I used to make the same pitch to my mother (who introduced me to yoga when I was nine and philosophy and took me around the world--I say all that to make sure you understand that she was a free-thinker) that just because someone was of a different faith--surely God would recognize that they lived a pure and true life and let them into "heaven"--Right?? As I got older we stopped having this conversation--because I began to understand her perspective. She was unequivocal on the point--Yes it DID mean that they wouldn't be allowed into heaven--the word of God is clear on this point--Catholicism as a PRACTICE is as rigorous as YOGA. If you do the work you get into heaven--if you do the work you become self-realized.
They are ALL just paths...take God out of the equation, leave God in...it doesn't make a difference...it's what you do with your time while you are here. My mother was as wedded to the text of her ancients as we are to Patanjali. Catholicism, Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism....take the man-made structure/institutions of religion out of the mix and you are left with words that tell you how to behave.
My mother died 3 years ago...this is the anniversery time...not a day goes by that I don't miss her with every fiber of my being. And I hope she's in heaven.
Stacey |
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| Dear Cyndiben:
I apologize for wrong and hasty English term I used as Political, etc. What I meant was: you are quoting about industry trying to solve disease problem, etc. Also, thanks for further explanation of your previous writing. Now, what I am saying is: What you are writing is very sensible, but that has nothing to do with the Sage Patanjali Sutra which was being discussed. Sage Patanjali is talking about a viveki or wise person who comes to know that everything ultimately does not give full satisfaction, meaning it is dukhkham - sorrow.
Neelbhai
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Neelbhai,
What Sage Patanjali is saying is exactly what we are experiencing as human beings, so in essence, yes it is the same thing. When we all decide to see that this external world is exactly that - Dukhkham, then perhaps we will be Viveki,  No need for apologies on being hasty with political terms, I understood you,  |
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| Hello GreenJello,
I agree that they are saying the same thing in essence. That wordly pleasures and wisdoms only lead to suffering. However, wisdom is being used differently in the two cases. In Patanjali's case he means real oiveka (discrimination) and he means that someone with viveka will know that wordly pleasures lead to suffering. However King Solomon means by wisdom, "wordly wisdom". So he is saying that wordly wisdom leads to suffering. Same message, though the word wisdom or discrimination is differently used I would say.
Hello Neel,
Surely, you are not suggesting that someone with Viveka will experience more suffering than someone wihout it?
I think it is quite clear that what Patanjali is saying is that someone with Viveka will recognize that wordly pleasures just lead to suffering. Patanjali is not saying that someone with Viveka will suffer more. Viveka will reduce suffering (though of course not eliminate it).
I think you agree, but it might be a communication problem,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-25 2:42 PM
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| Good point sdaraio....
They are ALL just paths...take God out of the equation, leave God in...it doesn't make a difference...it's what you do with your time while you are here
Makes sense, as to why not worry if you are living a decent life. I am sure your mother was very open minded, however from my experience ( and believe me im not just talking out of my arse here... ) she sounds more like the exception rather than the definition. I as well hope that all the family members that i have lost are somewhere heaven-like...Crap there was more I was going to add, but since there is an auditor coming today it seemed to have slipped my mind with all the cleaning ive had to do at work..if it comes to me ill try to post it.
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| Hi Sdaraio,
"She was unequivocal on the point--Yes it DID mean that they wouldn't be allowed into heaven--the word of God is clear on this point--Catholicism as a PRACTICE is as rigorous as YOGA. If you do the work you get into heaven--if you do the work you become self-realized."
There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?
Please don't take offence at this. However, I am afraid that on this particular issue sideshow is right,
Regards. |
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From Belovedofthegod:
"Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?"
This makes me so mental. I love Jesus and His principles but I get mad when Christians demonstrate arrogance. It's this kind of arrogance and belief system that turns off perspective "buyers" with a conscience and a brain. I think God loves all of us and gets disappointed when we practice destructive behavior.
Just my $0.02 ~ fifi |
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| *Fifi* - 2005-10-25 10:07 PMThis makes me so mental. I love Jesus and His principles but I get mad when Christians demonstrate arrogance. It's this kind of arrogance and belief system that turns off perspective "buyers" with a conscience and a brain. I think God loves all of us and gets disappointed when we practice destructive behavior. Just my $0.02 ~ fifi
I also think the pushy attitude of some Christians also causes problems. Not only are they convinced you're wrong, they're going to beat you up until you agree that it's true!  The moment anybody starts using the "truth" as a weapon to cut people down, I think they've lost it.
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| Dear BelovedOfGod:
Yes, you are correct. I did not mean that viveki will suffer more, and such. What I meant was Viveki understands that it is really all suffering, whereas others may temporarily enjoy it while they are actually suffering, they come to know only when the temporary enjoyment disappears. Whereas in Viveki, he/she is not interested in temporary enjoyment, they are looking for real (that is permanent) enjoyment, that is bliss.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-25 6:18 PM
There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?
Please don't take offence at this. However, I am afraid that on this particular issue sideshow is right,
Regards.
Hello Beloved,
There is no middle ground in philosophies associated with yoga--if you don't get self-realized you get reborn. Being reborn again and again and again can be perceived as being in "hell". One chooses ethical behavior because it is the right thing to do. Please explain how you see Sideshow being correct in this manner.
No offense taken.
Stacey |
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phillisophically challenged
