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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | booga - 2005-09-22 7:31 PM
Yoga has never started a war that I know of, nor do people normally die because of their yoga practice.
Wars are often started because of religion, and more people die because of fights over religion than Yoga - in history, present and I presume - in the future.
Also, Christians (some not all of course - and I do consider myself a Christian of sort) - are the first to judge..yet they preach that only God judges. Even in the bible, Jesus did not judge.
Of course, you will have to separate the Hindu Nationalist Party from Yoga as a part of the
Hindu religion in order to excuse the riots and lynchings that have in India occured in
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| BG:
That fresco sounds amazing. i'll look it up for sure! thanks!
I tend to think that the Vedic ideas were adopted by Christians, rather than visa-versa,
but that's mainly b/c Vedic philosophy predates Xtians.
While this is most definately true, one of the things worth remembering or at least considering is how long these cultures have been in contact with each other. The silk road has been around long before christ. People traveled among groups for thousands of years--into and out of the INdus valley. Throughout all of this time, there is not only independent cultural development, but also cross cultural exchanges and exploration.
So, while i think it is pretty easy or say "this idea came from that" (for instance, the idea of calling Jesus "the Christ" in greek can be directly derrived from the concept of Krishna in india, as alexander the great brought the "x" or "krsn" sound back to greece, to denote the concept of divine man--as krishna was--and that because "christ" in greek, which was then given to Jesus by his followers throughout the roman world, as they had a strong greek influence--that is, the romans loved the greeks and any good roman knew their greek and of course, many of the texts were written in greek!)--but i think it's also important to recognize that there would have been a great deal of cross fertilization even in the early stages of individuated cultural development. and not just 'east to west' but also north to south in asia. So, it's fascinating really. |
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| You know I seen this argument on this site before, and I have seen the huge and well written views on God and yoga. So here is my two cents..
Where is the love ? Jesus said the world would know us by the love, not what fellowship you went to or what books you read, or what sports you do. Granted use some common sense that God has endowed in all of us. As for those follow something else I honor your choice. God is respector of free will so I am I.
The one thing I have seen here that makes me comeback is that you all dont lump all of us Christians together, for that I thank you.
Ash
Edited by Roobione 2005-09-26 12:06 PM
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| "Elson and I had a discussion of that question in the Philosophy and Religion forum (which
is where this thread should be moved, IMHO). I think that we finally agreed that
in [fundamentalist] Christian theology, union with god in a non-dualist sense is not
possible. Another way to look at this, I guess, is that while yoga might be equated to
prayer, prayer in a Christian sense is supplication to the Almighty. Yogic union is essentially
the removal of avidya that prevents us from seeing that we are already god, as is everything
around us."
On this note, a few things about how the liberation process in Christianity would be viewed in Advaita. One thing to remember is that Christians do talk about union with God, but this means being with God all the time, it doesn't mean becoming God. This is the same as in Hindu dualism and dualistic monism. Not all of Hinduism is Advaita.
Basically, the individual being takes birth according to its attachments. So if someone's primary attachment is sex, then the disembodied mind may associate with an animal since this is a relatively good place to get sex, its a good place to fullfill this primary desire.
Now if the object or entity one is most attached to is God (Ishvara, though we cannot be sure that this is what someone worshipping Christ will be attached to, but lets suppose so) or more precisely the energy of God (Ishvara-Shakti), then upon disembodiment, the mind will go to become absorbed in this energy (though not dissovled, so the sense of seperation does remain). This is good, and if the devotion was really really really strong then in a sense the mind will be able to sustain such absorption with Ishvara-Shakti for a very long time. In fact, it is said to be possible that one remains absorbed until the end of the universe, when everything dissolves back into Brahman. However, if the merit is not strong enough, then in a sense it means the mind will not have enough energy to remain absorbed in Ishvara-Shakti any longer and so according to attachments in latent form which eventually get manifested, it will take birth (ie: get attached to) another being,
Regards. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | belovedofthegod - 2005-09-26 4:19 PM
On this note, a few things about how the liberation process in Christianity would be viewed in Advaita. One thing to remember is that Christians do talk about union with God, but this means being with God all the time, it doesn't mean becoming God. This is the same as in Hindu dualism and dualistic monism. Not all of Hinduism is Advaita.
Basically, the individual being takes birth according to its attachments. So if someone's primary attachment is sex, then the disembodied mind may associate with an animal since this is a relatively good place to get sex, its a good place to fullfill this primary desire.
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Yes, there are dualistic commentaries on the Yoga Sutras, for example,
although I find them hard to understand. I am not going to get into the topic of
sex and animals, however.
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| Dear BG:
Yes, in Hindu Philosophy there is dualism. Actually, there are:
Advaita - NO dualism, Dvaita - Dualism, Vishishta Advaita - Qualified Non Dualism, and Dvaitaadvaita - Dualism with NonDualism. Advaita is considered the final in all these. All others have been refuted.
Patanjali Yoga Sutras are actually an extension of Advaita. All commentaries on Patanjali which profess dualism are in that respect wrong (not in every respect).
In Hindu Philosophy, there is NO contradiction with Christianity or any thing else. Because, it states that ekam sad sadvipraa bahdha vadanti, same truth is differently described by different people. At the end, all merges into God, and becomes God. Whether you call it always staying with God or not. Always staying with God is impossible without becoming God. And, always staying with God while being different God amounts to becoming God. All discussion or description is linguistic or matter of expression. The experience is the same.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Thanks for that clarification Neel. I found the Brahma Sutras the other day at the Hindu temple. It is an Advaita Ashrama book (I paid only $5 for it), Published in Calcutta by Swami Vireswarananda in perfect English. All this refuting has been quite confusing to say the least...but after getting though half of chapter 2, I think I'm understanding much much more and my question I had to you earlier regarding Buddhism and Yoga.
I also picked up 2 other books, Learning Hindi in 30 days and Sanskrit in 30 days. Don't be surprised if I start speaking fluently, soon, real soon 
Okay, I'm off to Path padho. Kal jarur avunga |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-09-27 10:29 PM
Dear BG:
Yes, in Hindu Philosophy there is dualism. Actually, there are:
Advaita - NO dualism, Dvaita - Dualism, Vishishta Advaita - Qualified Non Dualism, and Dvaitaadvaita - Dualism with NonDualism. Advaita is considered the final in all these. All others have been refuted.
Patanjali Yoga Sutras are actually an extension of Advaita. All commentaries on Patanjali which profess dualism are in that respect wrong (not in every respect).
In Hindu Philosophy, there is NO contradiction with Christianity or any thing else. Because, it states that ekam sad sadvipraa bahdha vadanti, same truth is differently described by different people. At the end, all merges into God, and becomes God. Whether you call it always staying with God or not. Always staying with God is impossible without becoming God. And, always staying with God while being different God amounts to becoming God. All discussion or description is linguistic or matter of expression. The experience is the same.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
Dear Brother Neel,
I recall that we had some discussion of Taimni's commentary on the Yoga Sutras
(which I remember that you have not read), and that we concluded that it had dualistic
ideas in it (essentially the notion that there were many separate Purusha Visheshas that
became separate Ishwaras, etc). As a whole, this particular commentary struck me as
having a number of silly ideas in it. There are some insightful passages in other areas,
so I don't mean to say that it lacks merit. Still, I quit reading it when it got to the idea of
separate Ishwaras for each new solar system.
I think we have to be a bit careful about talking of contradictions with Christianity. I
personally do not see any contradiction of Hinduism with most aspects of Christianity;
however, I know that some fundamentalist Christians do perceive a difficulty with the idea
of man being at one with god. Essentially (and is Elson around these days?), for these
Christians, man can never become one with god: man can only stand at god's feet doing
god's will. Essential to this idea is the notion that god is superior to and separate from
man. So, the only way you can resolve this contradiction is by saying that this Christian
belief is wrong.
I myself follow the belief that all that is god is within us and around us, and that we
only confuse ourselves into seeing any separation between the two. |
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| I am proud of Cyndiben and brother BG.
When is the chai party promised by Cyndiben coming? Can we have it in Virginia please?
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | BG wrote:
Essential to this idea is the notion that god is superior to and separate from
man. So, the only way you can resolve this contradiction is by saying that this Christian
belief is wrong.
and Cyndiben responds:
You don't have to say that the Christian belief is wrong BG...it just gets refuted...that's all,
Chai party in Virginia?? Hmmm sounds interesting. Neelbhai, I hope you know of a good place where we can all crash, to hamara samay thik katega. ap ko kasht de raha hum?? |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well GJ, perhaps if you would google the correct language, you might get your answer, I was writing in Hindi, not Sanskrit, 
I said that I hoped that Neelbhai knew of a good place to stay so that our time will be spent nicely and asked him if I was giving him too much trouble. I'm practicing my Hindi language. Don't worry, achchhi bat kaho, jello ha ra,
Suva Ratri,
Cyndiben
Edited by Cyndi 2005-09-28 8:24 PM
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| Gee, this language thing is more interesting than Philosophy, that is tattvajnana,
tat tvam asi, tha thou art.
Neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2005-09-28 11:06 PM
Gee, this language thing is more interesting than Philosophy, that is tattvajnana,
tat tvam asi, tha thou art.
Neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
I vote to start a Hindi/Sanskrit Language Forum...
Should'nt that be - You are that, instead of that thou art. I'm assuming that you forgot to type the letter T when you typed tha. It took me forever to find that in my HINDI book....cause it wasn't there.....it was in the SANSKRIT book,
Neelbhai, seriously, what's a good reference book for learning Hindi with English translations. My book is very limited..I need more definitions?? Does Nancy use one??
Satyam's parent's speak mostly Hindi instead of Nepalis, because his Father is Punjabi. I was hoping I could learn to speak Hindi or at least understand some things, before we visit with them next year.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-10-01 12:18 PM
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| Dear Kulkarnn,
"Yes, in Hindu Philosophy there is dualism. Actually, there are:
Advaita - NO dualism, Dvaita - Dualism, Vishishta Advaita - Qualified Non Dualism, and Dvaitaadvaita - Dualism with NonDualism. Advaita is considered the final in all these. All others have been refuted."
That is what the Advaitin claims, the others claim that they have refuted Advaita, etc... This is very misleading to say Advaita "is considered" the final, since this is true only of those who believe in Advaita! Ramanuja's arguments against Advaita are actually quite good, and most Advaitins would not be able to refute it.
"Patanjali Yoga Sutras are actually an extension of Advaita. All commentaries on Patanjali which profess dualism are in that respect wrong (not in every respect)."
Then we disagree on this. I follow the tradition of interpreting the Yoga Sutras according to Vyasa, who was a Samkhyan and therefore a dualist. There is no reason as far as I am concerned to consider that the Sutrakara was a non-dualist. Shankaracarya in his Vivarana clearly also accepts Vyasa as the correct interpretation of the methods of Yoga though disagrees with his philosophic basis.
That said, Raja Yoga works well with Advaitin philosophy too since the basis for Viveka-Khyati is there.
"In Hindu Philosophy, there is NO contradiction with Christianity or any thing else. Because, it states that ekam sad sadvipraa bahdha vadanti, same truth is differently described by different people."
Well, this doesn't mean there is no contradiction. Rather as Mandana Mishra says if Advaita is established, then all other positions are invalidated. If another position is established, that doesn't invalidate Advaita. Of course most people wouldn't agree but there is a good reason why he says that (other philosophies might be correct from various Vyavaharic perspectives).
However, there are clearly very serious contradictions between Christianity and Advaita.
"And, always staying with God while being different God amounts to becoming God."
This is not the position of Shankaracarya and of any traditional Advaitin in his parampara. Unless you choose to actually make always staying with God synonymous with becoming God, but such an interpretation would be flat out rejected by Christians, and all non Kevala-Advaita Vedantins,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-01 4:51 PM
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| Dear BelovedOfTheGod:
Thanks for the response to my previous posting.
As for the final-ness of Advaitavada over other vadas which have partial or full dualism, one day I shall write my respone.
As for Patanjali Yoga Sutras: The commentator Shakara is NOT the Adi Shankara, the Advaitin. Vyasa is also not the Veda Vyasa of Mahabharata. Interpretation of Patanjali by Dualistic Philosophers is wrong, because Patanjali Yoga Sutras are direct extention of Advaitavada. Its culmination is in Kaivalya which leads to NON Dualism. Only the Practice is Dualistic. All practice is always dualistic and when the practice is completed, then the result is Yoga which is the union between Individual Soul and Universal soul, the real yoga, and it gives the individual which was previously considered as separate from the Paramatman, a kaivalya state which is paramatman. Then nothing remains to be done. purushaarthashoonyaanaam gunanam pratiprasavah kaivalyam svaroopapratishtha va chitishaktiriti. Last sutram of Patanjali.
As for Christianity and non contradiction with Hindu Philosophy (NOT Advaita, I meant Hindu Philosophy) which is panthiest and allows all things whicih ultimately lead to Yoga to be various paths to reach the same goal. But, since I am NOT an expert on Christianity, I shall not discuss this further. I accept any mistakes on my part.
Regards
neel kulkarni |
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| Dear Kulkarnn,
Thank you for your reply.
"As for the final-ness of Advaitavada over other vadas which have partial or full dualism, one day I shall write my respone."
I would be interested to see that, but if you manage succesfully, keep in mind that you would be the first person in the history.
"As for Patanjali Yoga Sutras: The commentator Shakara is NOT the Adi Shankara, the Advaitin. Vyasa is also not the Veda Vyasa of Mahabharata."
No doubt Vyasa is not the Mahabharata Vyasa, but Shankara really does seem to Adi Shankara. I have read the Vivarana carefully and it is really in his style and also there are a huge number of parralels with Brahma Sutra Bhasya, etc... Most scholars who have studied the text do tend to agree that it does indeed appear to be Adi Shankara. Do you have any reasons why its not Shankaracarya?
" Interpretation of Patanjali by Dualistic Philosophers is wrong, because Patanjali Yoga Sutras are direct extention of Advaitavada. Its culmination is in Kaivalya which leads to NON Dualism."
But Kaivalya is an originally Samkhyan word, there is no particular reason why it must be non-dualism.
"Only the Practice is Dualistic. All practice is always dualistic and when the practice is completed, then the result is Yoga which is the union between Individual Soul and Universal soul, the real yoga, and it gives the individual which was previously considered as separate from the Paramatman, a kaivalya state which is paramatman."
And interestingly the Sutrakara does not say any of this. Rather the Sutrakara simply says that the seer abides in his own his nature. There is nothing about identity of paramatman and brahman. Furthermore the sutrakara says Ishwara is a distinct Purusha, distinct implies difference.
Also Yoga is agreed by most people, including Advaitins, to come from "Yuja Samadhau" not "Yujyr Samyogay", so in this context Yoga has nothing to do with union. Rather it is seperating Purusha from Prakriti.
Having said that, I agree that Yoga would lead to non-dualism. I do not agree that this was the view of the Sutrakara.
"As for Christianity and non contradiction with Hindu Philosophy (NOT Advaita, I meant Hindu Philosophy) which is panthiest and allows all things whicih ultimately lead to Yoga to be various paths to reach the same goal."
Well then we have less contradictions since Christianity and Dvaita are quite similar in many ways. Neverthless in Christianity there is no belief in karma, judgement day after a single life, original sin, etc...
Regards. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I actually don't read all of these posts - too deep for little old me - but I caught this:
Neverthless in Christianity there is no belief in karma, judgement day after a single life, original sin, etc...
Not much of a scholar of Christianity either, but I'm pretty sure there IS judgement day after a single life and original sin in Christianity! No karma, though. Slip of the keys? |
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| Hello Tourist,
"Not much of a scholar of Christianity either, but I'm pretty sure there IS judgement day after a single life and original sin in Christianity! No karma, though. Slip of the keys?"
Thank you for correcting me; that was a grammatical error on my part... No belief in karma, but yes belief in judgement day, yes belief in original sin. Its still very bad grammar but at least its clear?
GreenJello,
"I beg to differ, I think there are suggestions of karma in Christianity, but no overt references, much like their treatment of reincarnation. The thing that really sticks in my mind in "vengence is mine sayith the lord". I don't think they're talking in the next life, but rather the here and now."
Well you can force karma, reincarnation, etc... based on some statements but in such matters it is better to take the the statements that are more generally stated since this would most likely better express the intent of the text. And in any case, Christianity and Christian scriptures need not neccesarily be related. When I say Christianity I mean the beliefs that are usually called Christianity. What you are saying is that what is called Christianity may not be indicative of what Christianity really or originally is about. I agree, but of course I am referring to something approaching standard exegesis,
Regards. |
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| Dear BelovedOfTheGod:
Thanks again. I shall only make few points here in proof of my previous posting. If that is not satisfactory, I accept to a)keep quiet. b)to accept my wronghood.
1. It is NOT true that I will be the first person to attempt to prove that 'Advaitavada is Final answer and other vadas involving dualism have been refuted'. For this, study the entire brahmasutras (Cyndiben is studying this now, and I can shift the responsibility to her. I know she needs over one year to even figure it out.) with Adi Shankara's commentary on it. In that all other vadas are sufficiently refuted, establishing Advaitavada.
2. I am happy that you accepted that Vedavyasa is not the commentator of Yogasutras for whattever reasons. However, I hope you accept that Vedavyasa did prepare Brahmasutras and in fact, that was his major last work which comprehended the philosophy into one place establishing advaita philosophy.
3. I hope that you accept that Adi Shankaracharya was completely proponent of ONLY Advaita Philosophy. His work is well known in the entire worrld, giving him the status of jagadguru (guru of the universe), and he established advaita philosophy in the entire India, by establishing 4 schools which are alive todate. Now, he would not write a commentary (vivarana) on a commentary of Vyasa (who is not Vedavyasa) which proposes Dualism as a meaning of Yogasutras.
4. As for Shankara's vivarana on Yogasutras, this is the history: Of this vivaran, ONLY one and ONLY one copy was found in south India (all the works of Adi Shankara is found in many many copies, all over the India, and in many languages). In that copy, the style of writing is like that of Adi Shankara. And, also the last statement of each vivarana chapter has bhagavadpada shankara's name. When this copy was published in South India, the publishers made a note in the preface, that this statement does not necessarity prove that the authorship of this commentary is Adi Shankara, as NO other supporting proof has been found to make that statement, such as that found in ALL other works of Adi Shankara. All the works of Adi Shankara is quoted at numerous places all over Indian Scriptures or works, except ONLY This work.
NOTE: As for Christianity: The style of writing of St Paul, and others, and there is NOTHING being written by Jesus Himself, lot of various interpretations take place. Again, I am only making this comment without being a scholar. And, dualism does exist in Christianity. It may not look like that in Indian Philosophy exactly. Also, karma concept is present as a reason for what one reaps. But, then forgiveness is also present. But, then in Bhagavadgita (which definitely is long time before Jesus was even born) states that clearly, 'sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja, aham tvam sarvapaapebhyo mokshyishyaami maa shuchah'. Discarding all duties, if you surrender to me alone, I shall forgive (or absolve ) you from all sins'. Anyway, what I know about Christianity may not be complete. But, whatever I know, all those concepts I have heard elsewhere. I am not stating that Christianity copied them from elsewhere. Also, I am not stating that about any other faith. But, I know that truth can be found at different places by different people, stated differently, and it all comes to one thing.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni |
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| Oh shame on this woman! Narrowmindedness to the nth degree. I may have to dedicate my next practice to her... |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2005-10-02 5:33 PM
1. It is NOT true that I will be the first person to attempt to prove that 'Advaitavada is Final answer and other vadas involving dualism have been refuted'. For this, study the entire brahmasutras (Cyndiben is studying this now, and I can shift the responsibility to her. I know she needs over one year to even figure it out.) with Adi Shankara's commentary on it. In that all other vadas are sufficiently refuted, establishing Advaitavada.
At least a year, |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-02 4:51 PMWell you can force karma, reincarnation, etc... based on some statements but in such matters it is better to take the the statements that are more generally stated since this would most likely better express the intent of the text.
I guess I'm going more with the words the written in the bible, instead of the current interpretation of them. No, I'm not attempting to put things in there, they're just not the sort of things that are generally emphasised by main-stream Christian belief. As Neel as pointed out, there is the reference to reaping what you sow. There are also references to both John the Baptist being Elijah, or Jesus being refered to as Elijah, though he later refutes this claim.
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| Dear Kulkarnn,
"1. It is NOT true that I will be the first person to attempt to prove that 'Advaitavada is Final answer and other vadas involving dualism have been refuted'. For this, study the entire brahmasutras (Cyndiben is studying this now, and I can shift the responsibility to her. I know she needs over one year to even figure it out.) with Adi Shankara's commentary on it. In that all other vadas are sufficiently refuted, establishing Advaitavada."
I am not saying you will be the first person to attempt, rather that you would be the first to succeed.
It is not correct to say that Shankara refutes the other vadas in the Brahma Sutra Bhasya because Dvaita, Vishishtadvaita, etc... did not exist at that time.
Furthermore, there are many interpretations of the Brahma Sutra and Shankara's is very forced at times. I would say that the Brahma Sutra does not profess Advaita, but something closer to Vishishtadvaita since it clearly says that the jiva is absolutely different from Ishwara since the jiva can't create the world, etc... Shankara can only deal with this kind of comment by saying its provisional or something.
Advaitins are the only people who accept that Advaita has been established. Dvaitins have claimed Dvaita has been established, etc... I am an Advaitin, but I think people are far too enthusiastic about such matters and do not examine them carefully enough.
"2. I am happy that you accepted that Vedavyasa is not the commentator of Yogasutras for whattever reasons. However, I hope you accept that Vedavyasa did prepare Brahmasutras and in fact, that was his major last work which comprehended the philosophy into one place establishing advaita philosophy."
I do not accept the Brahma Sutra is Advaita philosophy.
"3. I hope that you accept that Adi Shankaracharya was completely proponent of ONLY Advaita Philosophy. His work is well known in the entire worrld, giving him the status of jagadguru (guru of the universe), and he established advaita philosophy in the entire India, by establishing 4 schools which are alive todate. Now, he would not write a commentary (vivarana) on a commentary of Vyasa (who is not Vedavyasa) which proposes Dualism as a meaning of Yogasutras."
Shankara's attitude is quite simple here. He thinks that Vyasa and the Samkhyans are philosophically incorrect but he accepts that they are the experts on Yoga.
Something proponents of the Advaitins of the Yogic culture do not seem to know is that Shankara clearly says that meditation CANNOT lead to liberation. It is useful for mental purity and creating detachment, not for liberation.
"4. As for Shankara's vivarana on Yogasutras, this is the history: Of this vivaran, ONLY one and ONLY one copy was found in south India (all the works of Adi Shankara is found in many many copies, all over the India, and in many languages). In that copy, the style of writing is like that of Adi Shankara. And, also the last statement of each vivarana chapter has bhagavadpada shankara's name. When this copy was published in South India, the publishers made a note in the preface, that this statement does not necessarity prove that the authorship of this commentary is Adi Shankara, as NO other supporting proof has been found to make that statement, such as that found in ALL other works of Adi Shankara. All the works of Adi Shankara is quoted at numerous places all over Indian Scriptures or works, except ONLY This work."
A lot of people say this, but the Vivarana was quoted in several places. I forget the translation where these references are provided but I will give them to you tommorow.
Dear Greenjello,
I'm not qualified to even attempt to talk about Biblical exegesis but by the Christianity I mean the tradition as it has existed. Modern Christianity is generally the same as the one for the last 1500 years or so in major themes. The you reap what you sow seems to be something quite general, doesn't neccesarily imply karma. As for the Elijah/John the Baptist, etc... its very interesting but the Christian counter-arguments are also quite good. So on that I'm agnostic,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-02 10:23 PM
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | belovedofthegod - 2005-10-02 10:15 PM
Something proponents of the Advaitins of the Yogic culture do not seem to know is that Shankara clearly says that meditation CANNOT lead to liberation. It is useful for mental purity and creating detachment, not for liberation.
Let's discuss this further. According to the Brahma Sutra Adhyasa section, and Sankara, the only way to liberation from this worldly existence (Samsara) is to get rid of this wrong notion through real knowledge of Brahman. Just as in the case of the rope and the snake, it is the knowledge of the rope alone that removes the illusion of the snake and nothing else, so also it is the knowledge of Brahman alone that brings about the cessation of this relative existence (Samsara). "A man who knows It alone truly, passes beyond death; there is no other path to go by" sv. 3.8; "He comes not to death who sees that one". Pilgramages, austerities, worship and charity -- these by themselves, without knowledge, cannot help us to attain Liberation. Their utility lies only in purifying our mind (Cittasuddhi), cleansing it of all worldliness, and thus making it fit to comprehend the Truth. When Brahman is reallized this phenomental world disappears automatically, without any further effort on the part of the individual. Knowledge of the Brahman through study of the Brahma Sutra's in absolutely necessary. |
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| Dear Cyndi,
Yes, and Shankara says (I don't have a citation with me now) that in Nirvikalpa Samadhi (which is Asamprajnata Samadhi of the Raja Yogi), like in deep sleep duality is obliterated but only temporarily since the false knowledge cannot be removed,
Regards. |
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****** Off
