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| Let's try something a little less polarizing. There is a quote from Lao-Tzu that has always sort of stuck with me. It's one of those things that is either profound or trite, and probably both. Hopefully it isn't profoundly trite. I don't know when or where the quote first appeared, probably sometime in the 6th century bce along with Lao-Tzu himself. I came across it a few years ago while reading John Barrow's A Book of Nothing. It's about, well... nothing. There are actually a few good quotes in the book pertaining to nothingness as it applies to meditation, but this one stuck in my head for some reason. I thought that I would throw this out there and see if anyone had thoughts that they would like to share.
"Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there
Usefulness from what is not there"
Lao-tzu
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-06-14 9:29 AM
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| Yep.. But this is the best of him (to me 
"Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it"
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| Tsaklis - 2005-06-14 7:28 AM
"Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there
Usefulness from what is not there"
Lao-tzu
This sort of has a zen feel to it (or zen has a feel of Lao-tzu's quote  )
But, sometimes, I've been think lately, is that Usefulness comes from what is not there, but so can profit. I've been trying to think...how how how? Hmmmmm...... |
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| "Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it"
I like this one very much as well. Although I can't help but think that anyone who has ever performed an accidental belly flop from the high dive might want to argue that whole softer and flexible thing.
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-06-14 11:39 AM
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| "Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful."
See, now I think it is the boundary created (the vessel itself) that makes the space useful.
I have no idea why I responded to that, but it was my first thought.  |
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| Lao Tzu is the best! I could spend all day contemplating one sentence of that poem. To me this poem exemplifies the nature of "wu wei" - doing by not doing. This is a difficult concept for my mostly-Western mind to grasp. I think I knew (or felt) this concept as a kid, then it went away. I wish grade schools would include the Dao De Jing as part of their reading list.
I look forward to weekly discussions on the Dao...thanks Tskalis ~ fifi |
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| Tsaklis - 2005-06-14 11:39 AM "Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it" I like this one very much as well. Although I can't help but think that anyone who has ever performed an accidental belly flop from the high dive might want to argue that whole softer and flexible thing. LOL - I think this might fall into (no pun intended!) the "resist" category! |
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| But, sometimes, I've been think lately, is that Usefulness comes from what is not there, but so can profit. I've been trying to think...how how how? Hmmmmm......
If you figure this one out then you have to let me know. I'm sitting on a veritable goldmine of nothing over here. I have so much nothing.... man.... I could be the Bill Gates of nothing. |
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| I really love to explore the concept of nothing and nothingness This reminds me of silence - if silence is the absence of sound, then it is nothing; correct? But silence is certainly useful - actually beneficial. Something from nothing? 
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| Emptiness and usefulness to me equal potential. I wish I knew more about quantum physics b/c I think there's a universal law of physics being described in this poem. It's so simple that it's complex to explain, which is so very Daoist. I think the emptiness, especially in rooms of houses, is how Feng Shui works so well. I mean the qi can flow freer in a less cluttered space. I'm going off on a tangent here.... |
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| Kabu - 2005-06-14 12:16 PM
"Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful."
See, now I think it is the boundary created (the vessel itself ) that makes the space useful.
I have no idea why I responded to that, but it was my first thought.
But is your vessel half-empty or half-full? 
I actually thought pretty much the exact opposite - without the space inside it wouldn't be a vessel for anything, but a block.
I really like this thread, by the way! As a designer we really get to think about solids and voids, and that is a GREAT quote to show my instructors! |
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| EE,
If you enjoy ponder over nothing you should really pick up Barrow's book. It's a great read that begins with the history of zero (in all of their wisdom the Greeks never conceived of nothing or zero), goes through the philosophical history of nothing, the void, and the vacuum, and ends with a little quantum physics primer. He ties it all together very well. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| I have heard musicians describe music as being ways of shaping the silence between the notes. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Sigh... yes... very Zen. What is the sound of one hand clapping? If a tree falls
in the forest and no one is there to hear the noise, did it make a sound at all?
Etc. Etc.
I am in the wrong mood to do Zen tonight.
What makes a vessel useful is not the space inside per se, it is the fact that the
[rigid] container surrounding the space confines other matter within that space
once placed within. Thus, a glass holds water, and a shoe box facilitates the
stacking and transportation of shoes. Lao Tzu missed the point entirely. I am
not impressed.
So  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yeah - the hand clapping thing and the tree - I have never liked those. Obviously these were questions posed before the advent modern technology. A good enough microphone could pick up the sound of one hand clapping and even basic science would suggest that, unless there were an ear, biological or electronic, there would just be sound waves, not sound.
As for the vessel - I think it is one of those perception things. I think I could argue either the space or the container being the most important aspect, depending on my mood.... |
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| Words!
If a man speaks in the forrest, where his wife cannot hear the words, is he still wrong???
Why a mouse when it spins?
When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, then you will have a balanced attack.
Lao-Tzu is dead, but still he speaks. Doesn't wear plaid, though.
Consider the dog.
Change is difficult. Change must come from within. Therefore it is difficult within. Or possibly"from within comes difficulty." Or, according to some scholars, "bite me."
Cheers... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Marvelous, Elson! |
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| an interesting saying I heard recently ----for DAO DE JING, the first two sentences(sorry, I don't know the English translation) are enough. Because the real DAO can't be explained, why do we read the rest of the words?  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Here it is....so that we know what's being discussed....
1. The Way
The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not true.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.
To experience without intention is to sense the world;
To experience with intention is to anticipate the world.
These two experiences are indistinguishable;
Their construction differs but their effect is the same.
Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-06-24 11:09 PM
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| So this is what happens when I take some time off? The lesser elements come to the surface and everyone just runs away.... pleasant. Ok...
Bay Guy - 2005-06-14 10:11 PM
I am in the wrong mood to do Zen tonight.
No one asked. Why is it you assume that negative input from you is more valuable than silence? If you have no desire to discuss the topic, then here's a novel idea..... don't discuss it. Your constant need to disparage is juvenile. You tear down other thoughts and ideas as a way of building up your own sense of security. Either that, or you are just not a nice person.
What makes a vessel useful is not the space inside per se, it is the fact that the
[rigid] container surrounding the space confines other matter within that space
once placed within. Thus, a glass holds water, and a shoe box facilitates the
stacking and transportation of shoes. Lao Tzu missed the point entirely. I am
not impressed.
Riiiiiiiight. You demonstrate a wonderful grasp of the obvious my friend. This is a brilliant job of describing a hollow three-dimensional object. However, the value of any object is ascribed... oddly enough... not by you but by each individual. So, in your opinion, nothing has value beyond it's material form. Okey dokey. Yeah, it's Lao that missed the point.
elson Posted 2005-06-15 3:22 AM
Words!
If a man speaks in the forrest, where his wife cannot hear the words, is he still wrong???
Why a mouse when it spins?
When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, then you will have a balanced attack.
Lao-Tzu is dead, but still he speaks. Doesn't wear plaid, though.
Consider the dog.
Change is difficult. Change must come from within. Therefore it is difficult within. Or possibly"from within comes difficulty." Or, according to some scholars, "bite me."
Cheers...
Yes, bravo indeed. You must be very proud. You can sit at your personal computer, in your air conditioned building, and poke fun at the words of a man who pondered the absract in a world lit only by fire. In order to truly see the value in any text or thought it should be placed in the perspective of it's time. What would a mind such as Lao's have produced in today's world? Lao's writings, in the context of his world, do not merit mocking. I have to believe that given the education and technology of today Lao would have made a much better showing of himself than mocking others on an internet forum.
You can take the same shots at any "sacred" text. Everything from the bible to the upinashads can be looked at literally and made to seem silly. Is that really the point of this forum? I mean, clearly it is for some, but should it be?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that? I'm absolutely stuck....
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| Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that?
And yet you respond anyway. How typical of my little ball of sunshine. I'm so honored that you chose to grace yet another of my posts with your own special brand of petty negativity.
I'm absolutely stuck....
What, can't get your ego through the door again?
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-08-14 4:03 PM
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| A non-haiku for Tsaklis:
So, how's the whole inner peace thing going?
If you call other people lesser elements, then what have you understood?
Does the intelligent, wise, thoughtful man speak these words?
Does love speak thusly?
Bite me. |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-08-13 11:16 PM
Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that? I'm absolutely stuck....
I think trolls are kind of cute.
And I had fun butchering the haiku format :-).
Best of all, I suddenly understood the sound of one hand typing....
Hee hee hee. |
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Lao-Tzu quote, your thoughts?
