tourist - 2005-06-09 11:18 PM

Interesting post, Steven. As far as science goes, I know that Stephen Hawking says that the more we learn about quantum physics, the closer we get to God.

Tsaklis - 2005-06-10 12:04 AM

I don't believe that the sliderule crowd had much choice but to move in a more spiritual direction as quantum theory began to unviel a universe so full of magic and possibility. Granted, quantum theory is just that... theory. Until they come up with a TOE it's nothing more than the universe as we understand it right now. But even still, as we begin to develop better methods of experimenting and testing the more ethereal aspects of these theories, the more magical the world appears. Time being related to speed is hard enough to get one's mind around, let alone the idea that one thing can actually be in two places at once. And yet, now we are faced with the proven reality of just such a thing. Beautiful. Amazing.

Empress Echo - 2005-06-12 1:44 AM

Wow - thanks for posting that, BG!   I think that's fascinating.  I'll have to run this over with my priest friend.  What he told me is that as long as I don't view yoga as a religious practice, I'm fine.  Really, I think this article says that as well, don't you?  It doesn't condemn yoga, only cautions about mixing it up with prayer...  I've got to print this one out.  Do you mind if I ask where you found it?

Honestly, I don't know a lot about Pope Benedict XVI, though I recently ordered a book about him.  Like many Catholics I know, I use the teachings of the Church as a guide, not a form of absolutism.  I disagree with some of the teachings - the birth control issue comes to mind - but I agree with most of it and am quite comfortable with my religious practices.  

Anyhoo, thanks for the post!

Hugs, Echo 

belovedofthegod - 2005-06-12 11:32 AM


"What of meditation? Is not the point of many types of meditation to achieve stillness? Mental stillness, physical stillness, spiritual stillness... Stillness. Demon science tells us in that all too famous and misunderstood equation that all energy is dispersed among two opposing planes: Time and Space. The more energy we devote to one, the less energy is devoted to another. This is why we cannot exceed the speed of light. If all of our energy is devoted to moving through time (speed) we would cease to exist in space. There are countless real world experiments that verify this concept. The opposite is also true. If we were to achieve absolute stillness through time we would indeed occupy infinite space. Of course, it is impossible to achieve true stillness while we are hurtling through space on a big ball of dirt, but the closer we come to stillness in our minds the more space our mind would occupy. Perhaps what some consider OBEs are merely a process of achieving enough stillness of mind that one is able to glimpse a space beyond the norm. This would not only be theoretically possible, but would almost seem a logical conclusion from stillness achieved in certain types of meditation. Likewise, achieving greater stillness through space would allow one to occupy more time. Since time, for us, only goes from now backwards it makes perfects sense that one could occupy enough time to glance back to a point where the presence of loved ones can once again be felt."

This is pseudo-science, nothing scientific about this. Science says nothing about the relationship between mental stillness and mental spaciousness. According to modern science, mental activity is a brain process. So basically if the brain is slowed down, literally the brain gets bigger (and unless there are relativistically significant changes in speed, this change is size is basically unexistent). This is completely irrelevant to meditation unless one makes an enormous metaphysical jump.

What you say is not science. If you are going to try to explain yoga in terms of science, then at least you should use correct science.

You are making things too complicated. OBEs if they are not realy, then they are basically hallucinations. We are not trying to promote hallucinations. If they are real, then they are a travel in some other realm and proper yogis have always said that this only gets one bound to samsara with this kind of practice, it is very much a hindrance to Samadhi. It also accumulates more samksaras. If you are a materialist, you will not accept any of this, but at least do not confuse your ramblings for yoga.

.

Tsaklis - 2005-06-13 12:42 AM

Bay Guy,

That is indeed a very intersting document. I should start off by saying that I am not Catholic or Christian in any way, so I have no personal investment in how the church is portrayed. Honestly, though, I must confess that as creepy as parts of that document feel, there is more than a grain of truth in there. I have met more than a few yogis, both students and instructors, who really have no concern whatsoever for any spiritual benefit from their practice. It is purely a function of physical health. Actually, that is not accurate. It is, to some, more a function of physical appearance. Now, I will grant you that most of these were people I met in gyms so it is probably not an perfect slice of yogadom. Still, I think it is fair to say that for some yoga does become part of a "cult of the body". I cannot say that yoga promotes this, so much as it functions as a tool in much the same way that a Hindu or Buddhist might use yoga as a tool on his or her spiritual journey.

On a lighter note, there are a number of sites out there from, presumably, the far-right which detail the spiritual risks and dangers of practicing yoga. Everything from psychotic episodes to eternal ****ation seems to await those who dare to step on the mat. They can really be quite funny if you forget for a moment that these people really believe what they are saying. For whatever reason it seems the Kundalinis take the most hits from these groups. Just another example of how small-minded some people can be. It is as if the very fact that someone disagrees challenges their belief system to it's very core. Funny, I haven't heard any reports of yoga instructors lurking outside of churches trying to entice one of the brethren into a quick Vrksasana.

*Fifi* - 2005-06-13 5:34 PM

I've enjoyed reading Tsaklis', Beloved's and Echo's posts on this matter. They've obviously put a lot of thought and study into their spirituality. I don't see wrong answers here, just exploration...

fifi

belovedofthegod - 2005-06-14 1:47 PM

" As I said, science was a tool of the church."

Not really, the "facts" were a tool of the church. Science was mostly supressed by the church.

Also, in the east the important names in science and spiritual practices very often match. Spirituality was never against the establishment except for about four centuries.

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tourist - 2005-06-15 11:58 AM

Steven - I think there were a lot of us following this with interest who would have loved to back up your statements but just were not up to speed scientifically. It is a bit like watching two Biblical scholars arguing using scriptural quotations. Seriously interesting but waaay above my head, for sure.

Tsaklis - 2005-06-14 11:35 PM

" Science, a tool of the Church???!!!! Ever hear of a guy named Galileo? "

What, you mean the guy who was forced to recant actual scientific progress or be burned at the stake because the church controlled science at that time? Of course. That makes my point.

I have always respected your posts on here BG, but everything you've put forth tonight is just opinion. Really, I've grown quite tired of going around and around. You folks can state all of the opinions you want now, I'm done with it. Enjoy the thread.