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| I just read the post from Empress Echo on OBEs and was a bit surprised by some of the responses. Unfortunately, the tread was hijacked after a couple of pages and responding there seemed somewhat pointless. Still, I feel compelled to offer a few thoughts on the matter. My hope is that by starting a new thread we can re-open the discussion.
I have absolutely no opinion whether or not someone is actually experiencing an OBE. I am secure enough in my own spirituality that I do not need to minimize another's experience or claim that mine are greater. However, the point was made that OBEs have nothing to do with yoga. I'm not so sure I agree. If we are talking about hatha yoga then maybe, but yoga as a whole, and meditation specifically, provides exactly the setting for an OBE.
Ok, here is where I begin to draw some fire. I have been chastised here before for using the "S" word, but yes, I am going to use it again. Science. I know, I know... for years and years non-christian spiritualism has had to view science as a tool of the establishment. It's just not that way anymore. In the last ten years or so the prevailing path in science, and I guess I mean physics, has come to not only embrace spiritualism, but has actually found a certain synergy with the more mystical schools of thought. If I may...
It was mentioned that the point of yoga, and I think it was implied at least that this was the spiritual side of yoga, was to bring one's focus on what is. What we have found is that in many ways what actually "IS" is limited by our own expectations. All "reality" is nothing more than our mind filling in the blanks. Our brains react in exactly the same pattern to memories as they do from current experiences. Which is real? Certainly our memory cannot be real as we all know how unreliable human recollection can be. Still, to us, it is reality. The "brain synapses firing etc" is the same regardless. Reality, it would seem, is the sloppiest form of mental masturbation.
What of meditation? Is not the point of many types of meditation to achieve stillness? Mental stillness, physical stillness, spiritual stillness... Stillness. Demon science tells us in that all too famous and misunderstood equation that all energy is dispersed among two opposing planes: Time and Space. The more energy we devote to one, the less energy is devoted to another. This is why we cannot exceed the speed of light. If all of our energy is devoted to moving through time (speed) we would cease to exist in space. There are countless real world experiments that verify this concept. The opposite is also true. If we were to achieve absolute stillness through time we would indeed occupy infinite space. Of course, it is impossible to achieve true stillness while we are hurtling through space on a big ball of dirt, but the closer we come to stillness in our minds the more space our mind would occupy. Perhaps what some consider OBEs are merely a process of achieving enough stillness of mind that one is able to glimpse a space beyond the norm. This would not only be theoretically possible, but would almost seem a logical conclusion from stillness achieved in certain types of meditation. Likewise, achieving greater stillness through space would allow one to occupy more time. Since time, for us, only goes from now backwards it makes perfects sense that one could occupy enough time to glance back to a point where the presence of loved ones can once again be felt.
Granted I have not travelled to India to study with Gurus, nor have I sat on a Tibetan mountain top with Lamas, and yes, I did have the misfortune to be born in America, which somehow makes me spiritually inferior to some, but one of the first things I learned on my own yogic journey was to set my ego aside. I do not know if Echo truly experienced an OBE, but I do not feel threatened or offended by her believing that she did. I do not feel the need to minimize her experience or to convince her that the only way to understand it is to look in the yellow pages under Mystic Sage and find one who is truly qualified to discuss the matter. Does that show up on a resume? If, after all, one can only understand such an experience by first having it and then learning the path from a handfull of trained guides then there must indeed be little hope of growth. After all, these select few must have learned from a prior generation of select few and so on back in time. The problem is that if you go back far enough it all started with one person who learned it from no one. I am in no position to say that this first Mystic Sage was certainly more powerful and more aware of the subtle nuances of an OBE than say, Empress Echo.
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Expert Yogi
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| Interesting post, Steven. As far as science goes, I know that Stephen Hawking says that the more we learn about quantum physics, the closer we get to God. So western ideas of science and spirituality are definitely moving closer together, as they have been in the east forever, as I understand it.
As for OBE's, there is a short article in the current Yoga International that mentions them. It doesn't really answer Echo's question but it does talk about their validity as a spiritual experience. The way my limited knowledge of yoga philosophy goes however, is that OBE's, like astral travel, levitation (which the TM folk are heavily into) and all other siddhis, they are ultimately a distraction on the path to union. Now, since most of us live lives that are waaaaay far distracted from the path to union and are counting on the promise of multiple lifetimes to achieve that lofty goal, I think it may be worthwhile for some of us to spend a lifetime or two exploring where phenomena like OBEs will lead. It is probably a much more "yogic" distraction than say, sex, drugs and rock and roll or stamp collecting or whatever. So it isn't exactly true to say that they have nothing to do with yoga, but I suspect a serious yogi would say they are a distraction and not to make them the focus of one's spiritual quest IF one is intensely pursuing the Ultimate in this lifetime. This is the way I understand it, anyway. Seriously cool stuff! Very 60's 
Edited by tourist 2005-06-09 11:18 PM
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| I absolutely agree that science and spirituality are moving closer together, though I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion of "Western" science. The tremendous advances in quantum theory over the last hundred or so years would not have been possible without the contributions of great minds from India, Japan, and all over the East. We are probably at a point now where science is global.
I don't believe that the sliderule crowd had much choice but to move in a more spiritual direction as quantum theory began to unviel a universe so full of magic and possibility. Granted, quantum theory is just that... theory. Until they come up with a TOE it's nothing more than the universe as we understand it right now. But even still, as we begin to develop better methods of experimenting and testing the more ethereal aspects of these theories, the more magical the world appears. Time being related to speed is hard enough to get one's mind around, let alone the idea that one thing can actually be in two places at once. And yet, now we are faced with the proven reality of just such a thing. Beautiful. Amazing.
As for OBEs as distractions, I would probably agree. I think. At the very least the pursuit of them certainly would be a distraction. But then again, in many ways the pursuit of anything is a distraction. Going back to the fundamentals are we not taught to set our egos aside and release ourselves from expectation? Should we not try to avoid marrying ourselves to any particular outcome? Expectation is the ultimate attachment, and therefore the ultimate distraction. It should not matter whether that expectation is stillness, an OBE, or the ability to dismiss / ignore an OBE. Actually, just sitting here a light sort of came on. If, indeed, we limit our reality by our expectations, then the ancient wisdom of releasing ourselves from expectations would also release us from our limited reality. Just a thought. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Tsaklis - 2005-06-09 9:04 PM
Should we not try to avoid marrying ourselves to any particular outcome? Expectation is the ultimate attachment, and therefore the ultimate distraction.
I think this is a good point. The way I think of it is to not be attached to an outcome but to follow the well-trodden path laid out over the centuries by other (more enlightened) seekers. I have a bunch of crazy analogies running around my head for this.... Imagine the bunch of us plunked down in the middle of a jungle with all sorts of paths and ways out of our little clearing. Some of us will choose the obscure paths, some will undoubtedly decide to make their own, "better" path and some will go down the broad path led by the wise guru who appears with a lantern and tells us this is the safest, surest way to get to the golden city. None of us actually expect to arrive there in this lifetime, but we all choose to make the journey. Some will find a little oasis on the way and be distracted and stay there, some will find wild animals and may or may not have the tools and skills to fend them off. Some, of course, will find the magic mushrooms and stay with THAT special little distraction 
So what I am trying to say, I think, is that we need to believe that the outcome we are told to seek (but not expect) is the Ultimate Reality. It exists outside our normal understanding of what reality is and that it is not any particular goal but perhaps the only goal.
OK - way too much first thing in the morning! My brain is tired already  |
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| I guess this is where our views begin to diverge. I do not want to seem as if I disrespect the many truly great spiritual leaders. This is not the case at all. I just believe that try as we might, we all walk our own path through this life. Walking exactly in the footsteps of another, eating what they ate, saying what they said, wearing what they wore, meditating when they meditated... I would not evolve exactly as they did. I still see the world through my own experiences and expectations, I still think with my own mind and feel with my own heart. I'm not suggesting that we all just wing it. The path is before us. I just don't see it as being so clearly marked.
To use your anaology, let's say that we all have indeed been plunked down in the middle of the jungle. We would all see many paths going in all directions. Some obscure, some well worn. Sure, there would be those who set off to blaze their own trail, searching more for the glory of having their own trail than any actual destination. However, as I see it there would not be one with a lamp, but several, with many different lamps, all coming from trails both worn and new. All claiming theirs is the path to salvation. Pick a diety, pick a salvation, and follow along. Yet, to me, there is the old one sitting on a stone quietly. When asked which trail to follow he only smiles and says that to reach the "golden city" one must go north until you reach the river, and then follow the river upstream. But what of his path, had he not been to the city? It does not matter. He walked his path many years ago and it has now grown over. In truth, it makes no difference whether you go right or left around a particular tree, nor does it matter which side of the river you walk along as you go upstream. Each course will provide it's own share of wonderous sites, thorns, quicksand, etc. Which brings me to my real point.
I know that you used the "golden city" euphemistically, but the very idea that there is a goal to be reached is steeped in the type of linear thinking that has bound mankind spiritually for so very long. In our little analogy I would be inclined to think that North would mean a way of seeing the world. By walking north we learn to see our place in the universe. We learn to set our ego aside and become free from the attachments to material things. We learn to treat others with love and kindness even when our egos think them beneath us. Progressing along in this manner we would indeed eventually find ourselves looking out at the river of humanity, Siddhartha's river, if you will. We would see time flowing past us. We would see the rush of billions of lives in their ceaseless, mindless journey to be emptied into the great sea of time. How tempting it would be after such a long walk to simply dive in and let the current carry us away. But instead, following the advice of our sage, we choose to walk upstream. To me there would be no "golden city" to reach. We would walk along far enough that we no longer expect to see the gates of a city. We would, at long last, lose the all too human need for reassurance that our path is correct... that there is some reward. In that moment we would find our true selves. We would see that the path itself was the golden city. We would have lived lives that were giving and kind and free of materialism and the need to best someone. We would have transcended the river and truly walked upstream. We would have evolved. And, having evolved, what would we do? Would we return to the seeker's drop off point, carefully mapping our path and marking it for others? Would we reach the drop off point, lantern in hand, eager to lead the next group? No. We would sit quietly on a stone and wait for someone to ask, and then we would smile and say "To reach the Golden City one must travel north to the river, and then follow the river upstream". |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I just want to pipe in and say that OBE's are a major distraction. This is how it has been taught to me. I have always been told to avoid it, not get attached to it, but yet acknowledge it for what it is, another words embrace it but don't dabble in it if you will. It is just phenomena that will pass.
All the great Masters from various lineages whether it be Buddhism, Hinduism, or whatever have stated that you MUST have a guru to lead you on the spiritual path. These OBE's and various types of distractions are the very things that having a guru is all about...and to put everyone in the same category as far as the experience goes is also wrong as everyone is different.
I know ya'll have a problem with guru's and the personal relationships and all that, but after all the things that I've been through in this Western world, the lack of authenticity and lack of knowledge period, I do believe in the guru relationship and why it is so needed when you are on this kind of path. Doing the Yoga Asana's is only a mere part of the experience, I call it my physical part, but in all reality, Yoga is about Union...Union with every little thing that happens. In the beginning, some people might experience so much that they think they can't handle it, and usually they don't because it is so powerful and not understood. Then you may reach a level where you get somewhat comfortable with that experience and then your ready for the next round, taking you even deeper in the rabbit hole...this is really how it works if you can understand what the heck I'm talking about. Being exposed to a guru can certainly take away all the self doubt, give you answers that you need and so on and give you the GRACE you need to survive it and experience it to the level of Ultimate Reality or Realization. You are not going to get this from being on a forum and it is something that cannot be explained by writing it down. It is something that you get from a transmission from your guru..when you get it, you don't put your questions out to the world on a forum..you receive the answers and you don't question it. If you do question everything and have self doubts then you are not truly practicing yoga. Anyway, I'm not saying these things to offend anyone's practice, I'm only stating my truth. My exposure to my guru's has been a wonderful experience and a challenge too!! The first thing you have to do is open your mind to all the possibilities, otherwise you will miss the boat. If you want to be scientific about this, then you might miss the boat there too. I have found that simplicity is a very valuable tool in my Yoga practice  Some things just don't need to be answered and need to be left alone.
Tsaklis, what you said about the path not being clearly marked...well, to me that is the scary part and why I quit treading on those kinds of path's where I refuse to just wing it anymore - been there and done that. Again, that is why the guru is there to show us the way...you just got to be open and willing to accept one.
This is a PERSONAL experience and that is the real beauty of ALL of it! I always think of the other humans having their personal experience and the bottom line is that one day the whole entire human race will be enlightened...talk about hope, and then talk about is there hope?? I say Yes, there is.
Back to lurking.....but something tells me we are getting ready for a major discussion again, LOL!!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-06-10 2:09 PM
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| Wow. Steven, you are a truly wise man, and I must confess to being quite in awe of your words. So much so that I've got to just sit with them awhile. I'd like to leave you with a verse from one of my favourite songs - the original is in Italian, but as I don't know if you speak the language I'll just translate!: And I shall wait for the sunset
some time the wind must pass.
I shall let myself be carried
to where the words are born.
I shall look for your words,
I want to bring them back to you.
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| Cyndi... I must respectfully disagree with nearly everything in your post, I'm afraid - but such is the nature of humanity, isn't it? And for you and I in particular, I think we're destined to have this go-round. I almost omitted saying anything at all, but I suppose forums are for discussion, aren't they?! That said... I am assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong...) that you come from a Buddhist or Hindu background, since that seems to be your most common frame of reference; I come from a Catholic one - and I believe that our history influences our current thought, in however small or large a way, despite our willingness (or lack thereof) to open our minds to different paths and ideas. Does your application of the guru extend to other peoples' belief systems? Or do you say that your way is the only way? I truly mean no disrespect in this, but sincerely ask. You said, "The first thing you have to do is open your mind to all the possibilities, otherwise you will miss the boat. If you want to be scientific about this, then you might miss the boat there too." But isn't this a contradiction in terms? I can't help but wonder if you yourself are opening your mind to all of the possibilities, if you will discount science and following your own path (with or without a guru - how about a priest or shaman or imam or even L. Ron Hubbard?) Or do you accept that these can be gurus as well? I really am somewhat confused by what you've said. Just for the record, I never sought out OBE's - they just came to me, and I felt it my duty to learn about and from them. I don't specifically associate them with my religion or my yoga practice or my scientific beliefs, but I do believe that all of these things come into play together. This is simply my opinion on the subject. In closing, I do feel that I must ask - do you say that I am ignorant and wayward in going as I will on my path? For despite your words to the contrary, this seems to be what you imply. I do feel judged - and perhaps condemned by you. It doesn't really bother me, if such is the case, but I had to get that out there - I don't like to play games and I'd rather not have that unspoken thought between us. I'm honestly confused by what you've said & seek clarity, if that's possible. Respectfully yours, Echo |
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|  Thank you for the kind words EE.
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-06-10 4:52 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Actually, a priest is a guru in respect to his or her religion...in this case, I am referring to the Yoga practice which came from Asia. As for Catholism, or whatever religion, it doesn't matter - I am very familiar with it and since I was raised as a Southern Baptist, I am equally familiar with it as well! but, since we are speaking in terms of Yoga..I was and am referring to the Guru/Student relationship which is traditionally followed in the Hindu, Tibetan and Oriental Culture.
Having that said, I have NEVER heard of anyone being able to intelligently discuss and leave with a straight answer or one that didn't tell you that you were evil or going to hell, regarding an OBE or similar subject, with a Catholic Priest, a Babtist Minister or any other western religion with the exception of a spiritual leader from Wiccan or a New Thought type organization - and that is even limiting due to their lack of experience. In fact, most religions here in the US would think you were demonically possessed if you were to raise the subject. If you find one that would discuss it with you, I think it would be interesting to hear what they said about it, but I think I already know. I watched how my Southern Baptist Minister in the 70's handle this subject and it wasn't very uplifting or nice...it was very degrading to say the least. But as far as my extension to other belief systems..I have no problem with it, I just don't think it supports that kind of level of expertise relative to an OBE..I'm sorry. The reasons I chose my path was because of the lack of support and knowledge that these churches including the New Thought ones, have regarding not only this subject of OBE's but many other questions that could never be answered because of lack of knowledge. If you want a guru relationship from a Catholic priest, I have no problem with that, I'm just saying it is limited to what you originally posted about having an OBE...do you want answers or do you want your questions stuffed under some Minister's rug because he doesn't have the answers for you?? Or better yet, he might tell you that you are a witch, or an evil person for dabbling in such notions.
Anyway, I'm not going to debate this subject because I do not think you are ready to hear what I have to say because you are still investigating and shopping. Not to mention this is not the appropriate place to talk about this subject. I am not saying you are ignorant..never did I say that, and I'm not judging you for where you are in your level of understanding..I was actually cautioning you about the avenue you were going on regarding an OBE being glamourous, fun or frivilous. I told you to go seek someone who was authentic about the subject so that you could get answers and to help you with this personal experience that you were having. A person that is truely on a path and truely having these experiences as far as authenticity goes...doesn't go around talking or bragging about it...they seek to find the truth about it from an authentic source which is where most of us who have been doing Indian types of Yoga, are at. I cannot stress enough to you that this is a PERSONAL experience and should be treated as very sacred...not broadcasted to the entire world...otherwise you dilute it, it becomes powerless and you loose it.
I'm sorry you feel condemned, please don't take it so personal. I care about what is happening in the world and I hate to see this nonsense that goes on in the areas of New Thought and these people that go around channelling other spirits and all the BS, is crazy and just lacks so much integrity and not to mention how un-authentic it is. So, all I can say now is Be Careful and Best Wishes to you on your journey. I sincerely hope you don't get wrapped up in anything that may harm you. I hope you find someone that can give you the right answers..the truth. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Oh, so much to discuss here! Steven, yes, I absolutely agree - the path IS the destination, certainly And I like your guru better than mine because he is, as Cyndi says, not bragging, shouting out that he has THE answer or in any way trying to infulence the outcome of your journey unless asked. I think the best gurus are like this. They do not ask for followers, they just do their practice and they share the teachings as is their duty and the followers are attracted by the guru's own inner Light. I am told also that most of the very best gurus assign tasks and studies to their students but never "mark" the papers or fill in the blanks. Each student is led toward their own discoveries through their own practice and reflection. I have been told that Swami Sivananda Radha was a master at posing the question with no right answer, making each student delve beneath the quick and easy answer or "technically" correct answer and get much closer to the core of their central beliefs. I love hearing stories about her but in many ways I am glad she is not my guru - it sounds like VERY hard work! So yeah, the good guru gives you the directions but,like a patient parent, just walks behind and lets us run back and forth with our questions and discoveries as we proceed along the trail. Oh gosh - that just brought back such flashbacks of walks with my kids when they were little! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Cyndi - the idea that one can achieve enlightenment without a guru of some sort is puzzling to me as well. If you consider yoga as an art and/or science, as the serious yogis do, you have to have a teacher, don't you? Consider dancing, for example. Many of our friends are amazed at how much practice and discipline it takes to do ballroom dancing yet admire our (limited) ability to do it. Yet they have the impression that because there are rules and form and set steps, it is limiting as a form of expression. "I like to just go out and move to the music and freely express myself" is the sort of comment we get. Yeah. Well. Watch a bunch of people with no dance training "express" themselves. Most of us found 3 or 4 moves sometime back in highschool that we figured we could do without looking to stupid and aside from one line dance we learned in the 80's that is the limit of our "expression." And except for the rare individual, this applies in all the arts and most definitely in science. So why do we think that in spiritual matters, probably THE most important aspect of our lives, we can go out and shake our booty to our own tune and have it come out ok? A little arrogant, yes?
OK - that was a bit of a rant, eh? Who knew that was all pent up inside me here.... So yes, you might have some bad experiences, as you did (and learned whatever lessons you needed to learn), but finding SOME sort of guide was still important for you and now that you have a guru you can be true to your path and yourself in the best way. With help! |
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Expert Yogi
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| Echo - I think Cyndi was just repeating what I said. In yogic terms, most yoga masters would say to acknowledge your OBEs (and maybe even explore them and learn from them) but not get so caught up in the phenomena that they become your whole reason for being. Which by the sound of you, I don't think would happen anyway. And although people can be pretty cynical about Catholic priests, I think many of them are genuine seekers and a few great ones could be wonderful gurus. There is a great deal of mysticism in the Catholic faith and I think we are sometimes too quick to dismiss it. I doubt that a good priest would say you were possessed in this day and age (we aren't talking Southern Baptist - a whole other story!) and I would be curious to know what a liberal, forward-thinking priest would say about OBEs. |
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| YES, Tourist! There is a whole lot of mysticism in the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church is practicing magic right under our noses every Sunday and every Holiday. The thing is, it seems like we have to find the magic on our own. It's very powerful. Catholic mysticism is quite connected to Kabbalistic magic. Same source I guess one could say.
Interesting, I'm 1/2 Asian and I know in some Asian-based traditions there's lots of info kept "secret" (and we have some of the best "stuff"!).
Lots of gatekeepers out there... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Tourist, Thanks for the Damage Control Seriously, if anyone thinks they can go on a spiritual path by themselves, go for it. There are several Masters that did it..Krishna was one that did not need a guru. But, that was very rare and the incarnation of who Krishna really was what made it happen that way. If we think we can achieve enlightenment on our own, and we are not ready, prepared, capable or whatever, we better be **** sure we can handle what we encounter. The Yoga path has been known to be like a "Two-Edged Sword". Any ideas about what that may look like?? I sure would love to "sugar coat" it, but that would be a lie. Based on my experiences, when you uncover your ego and the truth...even a tiny little portion of it, I hope and pray for you that you have a compassionate enlightened being at your side to aid you in your recovery of your experience. That is called the "Grace of the Guru". If you can't relate to what I said, don't bother trying to disagree, one day you may just have the opportunity to experience what I'm talking about and then you will have to eat your words..save your energy for when you really need it - you will need it. May you always be blessed and best wishes for your journey.
Tourist, as for Catholism...we already know how the church feels about Yoga...you honestly think they are going to change their stance on it because of that new pope?? I don't think so. They may just start doing an exorcism though...I'm only joking!! You can reach a certain level with any faith or religion, but just remember this...all path's lead to the same goal..some are just more skillfull about the process. Don't forget that quality factor and you may have to get off the boat and onto another one to reach your goal. Afterall, it is a personal matter and we do have a choice in today's world about where we want to be. Mostly, our choices are put directly on our path and we see it instantly and welcome it with open arms...Some of us want to run like h#ll!!! I happened to have been the one to run like h#ll!!! from the church that is....and I have welcomed my guru's and have cursed them too at the same time, As Bikram would say,"the truth is most bitter thing in the world and we spend all of our lives hearing lies to make ourselves happy, only to discover the truth and hate each other, because life isn't the way we thought it would be. We go to yoga to learn the truth". We stay here not because we like the truth so much, but because it is something that we can resonate and live with, it may not be all peachy, but at least we can live with it...that is the real beauty of the Yoga Practice:~)
Edited by Cyndi 2005-06-10 8:17 PM
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| "A woman once came to Mahatma Gandhi with her little boy. She asked, 'Mahatma-ji, tell my little boy to stop eating sugar.' 'Come back in three days,' said Gandhi. In three days the woman and the little boy returned and Mahatma Ghandi said to the little boy, 'Stop eating sugar.' The woman asked, 'Why was it necessary for us to return after only three days for you to tell my little boy that?' The Mahatma replied: 'Three days ago I had not stopped eating sugar.'" - Ram Dass, "Be Here Now" You've all raised some very interesting points, and I need some time to absorb it all. My personal philosophy - or goal, if you will - is, To Love, To Learn, To Dream, and To Live. This is what I believe to be my purpose. I would learn from your words, and before I respond to what I've read here I need to do a little learning myself. I'll be back! Namaste, Echo |
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| Cyndi,
Spiritual matters are touchy discussions in the best of circumstances. When one person chooses to contort the words of another to further their own position, well, it becomes untenable. Let's try to limit the discussions to what is actually said.
As for gurus, I do not recall saying that they had no purpose. In fact, I have not seen a single post in this thread or the original thread by EE advocating "winging it". The comments in my original post about looking up Mystic Sage in the yellow pages was not an idictment of you or the guru / student relationship. It was a humorous (evidently you missed that) attempt to point out the fact that not everyone has access to a guru. Certainly not everyone has the means of determining the "real deal" from a charlatan. And even if they did not everyone has the financial wherewithall to travel the path as you have. There are many different types of guru / student relationships. In the first few posts here tourist and I exchanged views using a jungle scenario. In my response I made several very obvious referrences to a person who can only be seen as a guru, as well as referrences to several charlatans. I'm sorry if you missed that as well. I've read through this thread again just now and honestly, I do not see one single post disparaging the role of guru. I absolutely cast doubt on the process of qualifying as a guru, but the role itself is invaluable. Anyone foolish enough to pass up an opportunity to learn from one who is wiser deserves to rot in his / her ignorance. My only problem here is that I have never met anyone that I honestly believe has finished the spiritual journey. I have certainly met many who are farther along on the path than I in this area or that, and I have absolutely requested their mentoring. If you truly believe that one person absolutely possesses every bit of spiritual knowledge you will ever need to achieve enlightenment, and you believe that this person is in your life right now then you are truly blessed. Indeed, is it not true that Empress Echo, in her original post, was seeking a guru to the best of her ability? Granted, none of us here are true gurus in the manner of your own advisor, but it was fairly clear to me that this woman was seeking the counsel of those further along on the path. Of course she could have easily gotten bad advice, a bad guru, if you will, on an internet forum. But is that any more likely than seeking a guru in the real world? If one does not have the means to travel to India and lives in a remote part of the spiritually bankrupt U.S., is she then simply out of luck? Sorry, no spiritual growth for you, Missy, you can't afford it. Hardly seems loving and charitable, now does it? And even if she did have the means to seek out a "real" guru, would she be any more able to distinguish truth from fraud in person than she would online?
Moving on to the OBE issue.... I did read the article Yoga International that tourist mentioned. Quite frankly, it seemed a bit silly to me. Maybe I am "missing the boat", but the idea that someone can arbitrarily categorize OBEs into five neat little pockets is laughable. In truth, what EE sees as an OBE may not in any way resemble the experiences of you, or jean, or anyone else. We do not, can not, know another's experiences. As I said much, much, earlier in this thread, before your first post in fact, I do indeed believe that pursueing OBEs is a distraction. Again, I read every post in both this and the previous thread and I am not finding a single one that recommends pursueing OBEs as a path to enlightenment. Honestly, I do not understand why you attack this issue so.
This brings us to the real demon, science. It's funny, really. If we had engaged in this conversation ten or even five years ago I would have agreed with you completely. At that time I too saw man's incessant need to understand the universe as an obstacle to truly understanding anything. All science seemed crass and vulgar and spiritually lacking. But, as physics evolved so did I. But as you said before it is pointless to tell someone something that they are not yet ready to hear...
Honestly, Cyndi, I do believe that you have many important things to say. I am certain that you are a very intelligent, profoundly spiritual person and I would love to hear more of your ideas and experiences. I just wish that you would not approach every discussion as a personal challenge to your entire belief system. Much of what you say would seem infinitely more reasonable were it not preceded by acknowledgements of your audience's ignorance or claims that you are so much further along on a given path that someone should not "even bother to respond" if they do not agree with you. These are not the words of a spiritual being. These are the kind of tactics children use to control other children. One points out everyone else's flaws, states their own opinions, and then summarily dismisses any objections, all to cover his or her own insecurities. It is a way of building one's own self-confidence not by raising oneself up, but by attempting to lower everyone else. This is hardly conducive to genuine growth.
"I do not want my house to be walled in on all sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any. I refuse to live in other people's houses as an interloper, a beggar or a slave."
Mahatma Gandhi
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Okay Steven....BTW, just for the record...my son's name is also Stephen...he's 20. So, this conversation is getting really interesting wouldn't you say, LOL!!
Anyway, I really don't have much to comment about your last post, but I did want to ackowledge that I did read it.
What I do have to say is this....I have never stepped foot out of US soil - except to Tijuana, Mexico....nor do I have an elaborate Financial Pocketbook as you seem to refer to (my son is in college and wants to study law - so all my $$ goes to him), and there is no need for me to travel, although I probably will soon...there are plenty of reputable guru's right here on US soil. Now, my exposure to Asian culture has been very vast and extreme considering I've never left this country...and I probably have more exposure than most people, but you have to know this...It is my karma...my karmic connections is what has brought me to this place. Its not about money or travel. I barely have spent any $$ on my studies and anything else. Now, that's not to say that I haven't donated several thousands to the cause helping certain Tibetans and the fact that my husband is Nepalis/Indian Sikh, that is not the point....The point is that you don't have to travel to Indian territory to study Yoga or find a guru. Besides, the original conversation here which is what led to the guru/student topic was that anyone who was having these OBE experiences should seek out someone who is experienced and that can lead you down a safer path, rather than going to the scary places...that's all. I'm not going to comment about my experiences relating to this subject as it is private and is left for the seeker to discover from his or her master...IT IS A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
Your comment about never meeting anyone on a higher level of spirituality is kinda strange considering how there are so many here around us...and they are here. In fact there is one on this forum..never met him in person, but I know him and I know who he is just in a few postings. Oh well, I don't need proof, if I did, I would not be where I am today because I'd be too busy with that distraction, but I really don't want to argue Science, I do not care about Science because it is not my goal.
No one has ever said anything like if you can't afford to travel to India you can't have spiritual growth..never has that been said. If that were true, guess I'll have to toss everything to the wind and just die!!
Anyway, this concludes my comments about this subject. Steven, I think you and I have had these discussions on other related topics before and I really don't have time to nor the interest to debate with you. You don't have to agree with me either, I'm not asking you to..Don't accuse me of being controlling, because you are wrong about that - totally!! That is your perception and until you can distinguish between reality and what your thinking, don't say things like that to me. I don't have a pesonal challenge nor an agenda here, I really don't care, I just state facts a little differently that you do. Soo, you should learn how to be more tolerant of people like me and just because I don't lay the facts down like an American Scientists would, doesn't mean that I'm ignorant and stupid either. I live a life of simplicity and that is the way its gonna stay.
Take care and have a blessed day:~) |
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| Cyndi,
I'm not sure what to say. Honestly, I just logged on here to delete my last post as I felt that I had responded to immaturity with more immaturity. Unfortunately I was too late. I must say that I was quite disappointed to see that once again you chose to change my words. I really do not seek a confrontation with you, and I only respond to your last post so that my words can be my own.
For starters, I made no judgement of you and your wealth. I stated that EE did not live in a major metropolitan area, had not the means or desire to fly. This is all drawn from previous posts by EE. Seriously, please stop internalizing everything.
I also did not say that I had never met someone more spiritually advanced than I. To make this claim demonstrates that you either struggle with comprehension of the English language or are simply looking for insult and creating it where none is found. My exact words...
"My only problem here is that I have never met anyone that I honestly believe has finished the spiritual journey. I have certainly met many who are farther along on the path than I in this area or that, and I have absolutely requested their mentoring."
Do I not say that I have met many who are farther along on the path? Do I not say that I have sought the counsel of those individuals? The only negative I use is to say that I have never met one who I believe is FINISHED on the spiritual journey... meaning one who has achieved spiritual pefection. It is hurtful and mean to continually accuse me of saying things that I simply did not say.
I have actually met several here who I believe are further along on the journey. Unfortunately, this site is not particularly conducive to a mentoring relationship, but I certainly have made a point of reading as much as I can from two or three members here. All of whom, I am sure, would be telling me right now that defending myself against your constant mischaracterizations is without merit.
Believe what you want of me, Cyndi. Just please, stop being untruthful about what I say.
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| I'm sorry, i keep looking for empress echo's original post on her out of body experience and i can't find it. EE, could you paraphase it? i've had them too, i'd be interested to know how they've come to you. when i first had mine it was after a very strenuous week in highschool, i'd been studiying for exams, preapring for the end of the year and practicing for a dance concert. One morning before dance class we were lying down lestening to our heartbeats ( myteacher was big on teaching teens how to cope w/stress) and fuum! off I went. it was bizarre and exhilarating. i'd be lying if i told you all i didn't want to experience that again.. I also understand that designating your OBE the "golden city" itself can be a trap. but what a wonderful way to experience, to have proof, that your daily existence is not all there is. If effectively started my journey. |
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| Hi Siren, Here's a link to my original post: http://www.yoga.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19006&start=1 Perhaps I'm naive, but I am truly surprised at the way these two threads have gone, and the way the discussion has veered here and there. My original post, my original query, was really quite simple: I've had OBE's - has anybody else? And yet... here we are! LOL I never really detailed my experiences - they are personal, and over and over I've said that I consider them sacred to me. But... I think my original intention in posting it has gone a bit awry. I suppose that is always a risk in any sort of public forum, however. At any rate, that's the link to the original - if you'd like, feel free to PM me & I'd be happy to discuss it further with you. (I'm still thinking about all that's been said on this thread before I respond more publicly!) Namaste!
Echo |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Steven,
The last thing that I want to do is to disturb you or your practice. So, having that said, I am truly sorry that I misread your statement about you meeting more spiritually advanced persons and directing that comment towards you personally. I try to respond based on one individual's statement or comment then I admit, I have this tendency to take it a a few steps deeper and generalize relating to the subject at hand. I'm really sorry that you took it personally, it was my fault, but I just want to clarify that because I did make that mistake. I won't however take my words back because of the general point I was trying to convey. Sorry, you got caught up in the crossfire. Take care,
Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Echo,
I think you are heading in the right direction by taking this privately with someone who can relate to you. There are all sorts of books about "Acension" and "OBE"'s in the metaphysical realm if your interested and sincere about learning it. A gentlemen that I once knew, Gary Bonnell wrote a really interesting book about "Acension", if you can still find it. Good luck to you.
Cyndi
Sorry, I can't seem to spell Acension or Ascension right now...but I think you know the word, LOL!!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-06-11 5:54 PM
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| Actually Cyndi, I've read some quite good books on this subject. But thank you for your recommendation. I'll look into it. I did want to respond to your comment about the Catholic Church and yoga. You wrote: Tourist, as for Catholism...we already know how the church feels about Yoga...you honestly think they are going to change their stance on it because of that new pope?? I don't think so. ... but do you really know? When I posted what I did last night I was quite serious about thinking things over & doing a little research. I contacted a priest and had a little chat with him about the Catholic Church's stance on yoga and OBE's (not that they are necessarily related). His answer is that the Church is not against either. He said that, as yoga is not a religion, it does not interfere with my own; as for OBE's, the Church does not have any official stance on them, but their advice is to "recommend caution about jumping to any major conclusions [about them]" - with which I happen to wholeheartedly agree. Cyndi, I don't know where you got your information about Catholicism & yoga, but in this instance it's quite off the mark, and I feel compelled to defend it. As for me, I'm really not seeking advice or guidance at all right now; nor am I seeking "enlightenment" (I really don't know how that got put out there!) I just wanted to ask if others here have had similar experiences. Anyone who reads this is free to reply or not, in as much or little detail as they wish. A few people have contacted me privately and that's fine with me too; I just threw out a topic and had no inkling when I did of what sort of response I'd get. As I mentioned earlier, I was quite surprised by the somewhat impassioned reaction to it. Anyway, Namaste to you! Echo :)
Edited by Empress Echo 2005-06-11 10:52 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Empress Echo - 2005-06-11 10:49 PM
I did want to respond to your comment about the Catholic Church and yoga. You wrote: Tourist, as for Catholism...we already know how the church feels about Yoga...you honestly think they are going to change their stance on it because of that new pope?? I don't think so. ... but do you really know? When I posted what I did last night I was quite serious about thinking things over & doing a little research. I contacted a priest and had a little chat with him about the Catholic Church's stance on yoga and OBE's (not that they are necessarily related). His answer is that the Church is not against either. He said that, as yoga is not a religion, it does not interfere with my own;
Ooooo... you should see what Pope Whathisname XVI said about yoga back when he was
defender of the faith or whatever it was. I posted this once before, but here it is again:
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Vatican Warns About Zen, Yoga VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican Thursday cautioned Roman Catholics that Eastern meditation practices such as Zen and yoga can ``degenerate into a cult of the body'' that debases Christian prayer. ``The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be `mastered' by any method or technique,'' said a document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The document, approved by Pope John Paul II and addressed to bishops, said attempts to combine Christian meditation with Eastern techniques were fraught with danger although they can have positive uses. The 23-page document, signed by the West German congregation head Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was believed the first time the Vatican sought to respond to the pull of Eastern religious practices. Ratzinger told a news conference that the document was not condemning Eastern meditation practices, but was elaborating on guidelines for proper Christian prayer. By Eastern methods, the document said, it was referring to practices inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism such as Zen, Transcendental Meditation and yoga, which [may] involve prescribed postures and controlled breathing. Some Christians, ``caught up in the movement toward openness and exchanges between various religions and cultures, are of the opinion that their prayer has much to gain from these methods,'' the document said. But, it said, such practices ``can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.'' The document defined Christian prayer as a ``personal, intimate and profound dialogue between man and God.'' Such prayer ``flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism.'' Attempts to combine Christian and non-Christian mediation are ``not free from dangers and errors,'' the document said. It expressed particular concern over misconceptions about body postures in meditation. ``Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life. ``Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.'' The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is the Vatican's watchdog body for doctrinal orthodoxy. The document did not name any particular individuals, groups or religious movements that have strayed in the use of Eastern meditation practices but the congregation often acts in response to complaints. AP-NY-12-14-89 0937EST (C) Copyright 1989, Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
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OBEs, Spiritual Arrogance, etc
