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| cyndi:
i'm not sure i had preconceptions about you. I simply read what you said, and then interpreted it. it seemed to me to display the same idea.
i can understand that your original statement didn't say what you meant (which you later clarified as it related to GWB), and perhaps the discomfort of the situation was the reality that at some level you did mean what you said, regardless of GWB.
as i said before, i'm not angry, frustrated or hurt. But, many times you have said things to me that were less than nice--that i have no experience or knowledge (in reference to dog/animal care, particularly), that i'm naive, that i'm not educated about the history of christianity and it's concepts. and that apparently i need validation for my faith practice. And yet still i'm not angry. and if you notice, i've not leveled anything like this against you, in any post.
i simply read your statement and noticed that it reflected the same sentiment that the women in the original article did. if it's not a sentiment that you share, then it's ok to say so. If it is a sentiment you share, you're certainly entitled to share it. I find the sentiment sad--not necessarily you or Willis. And i certainly consider the sentiment "getting 'it' wrong" whatever 'it' is. Truth or perception or something. i dunno. But people change.
Also, as someone pointed out, we don't have tone and inflection. None of my statements were made in an angry way, but i realize that people read into things. Yet, in relation to this, I think it's impolite to speak about me to another party while present, without addressing me on the topic directly as well. Wouldn't that be considered rude in person? Perhaps i'm just socially backward in this sense. I have no problem engaging you--having you tell me that perhaps i'm getting it wrong because of what i'm bringing to the table. I'm sure i do get things wrong because of this--and i'm sure i'm not alone.
----
re: catholics and christians. I lived in the south for many years, and i agree that there is a difference for some people. this is why i use the term, even though catholics are christians, and most demonimations agree with this sentiment. but, i introduced catholicism specificially because i'm catholic--so i was speaking about christianity in general and catholicism in specific, and wanted to denote that there are certain differences in theology or application of theology in the modern world. But, of course, that's vague. 
Edited by zoebird 2005-08-09 10:59 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2005-08-09 10:39 AM
If every religion has the US vs. THEM attitude, we will always be separate and never be able to work together to build a world many of the religions claim to want. Sad.
Tourist,
It is sad when you present it like that, but in reality the sad part is that Religions do not have an US and THEM attitude, it is the observer that makes that kind of claim and is actually sad. I believe that we have free will on this earth and have choices about what kind of religion we want to practice. If you were involved in a say a certain type of religious practice such as Tibetan Buddhism, you would not have the attitude of US and THEM because that is NOT what the teaching is all about. You would simply be practicing Buddhism with your Sangha and Guru, you would not care about what is going on (and/or being sad) in the outside world, therefore you would be safe and you would be evolving on your spiritual path of choice. The SAD part is that religion has been used to control people, it has been brought into government, it has become political and abused. This I know has been done in the Catholic and Christian Church against the people without their knowing because they have been oppressed if you will in a sublte way.
The Yoga practice does teach the opposite and is the reason it is generally NOT accepted in these types of religion which is what this thread is all about. As long as these religions have this mentality, of course, they will always be seperate. To unite everyone's belief's would be to undo all religions and their belief's...the world is not ready for that concept and people want and need to have their choices and free will to practice what they want. Also, at the same time keeping their cultures in tact is also important as well. Finding the common ground is what is necessary at this point and having respect for others is critical. I do not feel the Catholic or Christian Church respect's me as a Yoga practititioner, if anything I feel like I am the one who is attacked and insulted. Because of who I am, I just overlook it and live in the world to the best of my ability without having too much interaction...that is how I survive. The good news is that we aren't in the dark ages and I can practice freely without interference from the church - period.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-08-09 11:36 AM
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| George W. Bush is like Hitler? Are you F****** kidding? Look, GWB may be a lot of unflattering things but like Hitler - absolutely not. That analogy comes from a sick, twisted, uneducated and uninformed mind. Nevermind what CNN reports. Try reading a higher caliber of journalism like "The Economist" (which, by the way, supported Kerry for Pres).
Want a better analogy - Saddam H. WAS more like Hitler. And the fundamentalist muslim fascist terrorists are likened to Nazis. (which, does not include the kind, loving Muslims that oppose the fundies just as much as I do)
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| fundies of all types are fascists in a sense. hitler was one of those. so, makes sense.
i like the economist. |
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| Good point Cyndi - it's not the religions that have the US and THEM attitude, it's the people who adopt them. I believe that the religion founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ are that of love, acceptance, kindness, and unity. But it has become so twisted by man that people use the words instead as excuses to hate one another. Christianity is CERTAINLY not the only religion where that has happened.
We can all talk a good game about how we accept and respect all religious traditions, but let's be honest. Those of us who have chosen a particular religion have done so because we think it is the "best" one. Most people would not attend a Christian church while deeply believing that Buddhism is better, nor vice versa (not that there is a First Buddhist Church of Memphis or anything, but you get my drift). We subscribe to certain beliefs because we believe they are right and that they are the best thing for our lives. And because we believe this, we can't help but allow it to color our discussions about religion with others. There's no animosity behind it, not usually. It's just that our own religion has helped us out so much, our natural inclination is to offer the opportunity for others to understand it and have the same beautiful experiences we have had.
On this board, many of us are seekers who have tried many religions, and thus we can better understand our friends who have chosen other paths. That's why most of these discussions are more open-minded and informational than a typical discussion between people who were raised in one way and who never have been exposed to any other traditions, in fact who think other traditions are "dangerous" and "blasphemous."
Think of it in terms of yoga instead of religion. We've all tried lots of different ways to feel good in our bodies, and we've all settled upon the idea that Yoga Is Great. Can you imagine having a discussion about your physical activities without it being colored (at least slightly) by your love of yoga? Would you ever find yourself saying "I realize that in many ways yoga is inferior to weight-lifting, but I was raised doing yoga and that's what I'm sticking with." Of course not. We love yoga, we've felt the wonderful benefits and we just want to share that joy with others.
I think that's what motivates a lot of people when they talk about their religion. It makes me happy, and I want you to be happy, therefore I would like to share this with you. Unfortunately, many times we take this as an affront instead - MY religion makes ME happy, therefore YOU need to understand ME. We become more vested in getting our own point across and stop listening to the intent behind the words.
Man, did that rambling get out of hand or what? I gotta go, I've got a class in 10 minutes!  |
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| jeans, I think that is very well stated.
Anya |
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| Hate to break it to you but there's nothing wrong with an "US vs. THEM" mentality if those in the "THEM" group are dangerous, indiscriminate killers.
Also, I was raised a Christian religion but I think Judiasm is THE BEST religion. But, I have no plans of switching religions. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Fifi - the Hitler thing was a bit of a joke. I don't like it when anyone compares someone to Hitler - he was beyond the world's wildest nightmares.
Also - I have a Jewish friend whose kids were much envied in our wasp-y part of the world. Every time a new cool Jewish holiday came up and they got the day off, all their friends wanted to convert!
Cyndi - I agree that the Eastern religions have much more of a live and let live attitude, which is what attracts many of us to them. But even Buddhists have different sects and schools of thought. And there is not perfect peace even in most Buddhist countries so I think the philosophy is great but the practice as a whole hasn't quite worked yet.
>>You would simply be practicing Buddhism with your Sangha and Guru, you would not care about what is going on (and/or being sad) in the outside world,<<
As I was saying - this attitude is what got Tibet invaded. I am very impressed, as are many worldwide, that the Dalai Lama IS paying attention to what is going on in the outside world and IS letting people know that there is a peaceful path. I think this was the karma of Tibet - if they were still isolated and happily living the spiritual life up there in the mountains the message of Buddhism would not have had the chance to be as well known as it is today. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | This is my favorite quote from the Buddha. Enjoy!
"Do not believe in anything (simply) because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything (simply) because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. (Yep, he really said that  ) BUT after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all then accept it and live up to it."
~~Buddha~~
Now Discuss.............. |
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| I like that Cyndi. Thank You!!!
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| *Fifi* - 2005-08-07 8:48 PM
Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about God and Christianity lately and I'm wondering if "I'm getting it". So, is it safe to say that a deep belief in the miraculous power of God can conquer anything? I've had experiences where I know God is changing the course of a situation or an event - always for a positive outcome beyond my belief. I'm beginning to think I never need to worry about anything ever again. Is this too simplistic?
No, but you have made a huge leap :-). When the bible says that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, it is referring partly to God's holiness, and partly to His power. So your wisdom is increasing :-). It is not your belief in God's power that saves you - it is God who saves you :-).
The nice thing about understanding the power of God, is when that understanding is linked with a trusting love toward God. Then you realise that the God whom you trust is in absolute control of the universe. In everything that comes to pass, God is working for the good of those who love Him and are called to be His. If you love God, then you are His, and He is working for your good in all things. Since nothing can stand against the will of God, that means that everything that happens to you will bring forth a positive result in the long run.
The hard part is choosing to remember this when bad things happen to you. But God explains that the trials that we go thru are gifts to us from a loving Father who is training us to be like Him - loving and good - in the most difficult of circumstances.
Also, I don't buy that the Vatican speaks for God. I've seen children who are more "tuned in". They are closer to the "source" than some old, disconnected-from-reality archbishop.
Please comment & thank you ~ Fifi
Indeed, many Christians agree that Rome does not speak for God - we are called Protestants :-). And many people, young and old, priests and laymen, tinkers, tailors, soldiers, and spies, are disconnected from God.
But let me be clear, the Roman Catholic Church was _the_ universal church of God until the Reformation. The amount of wisdom and understanding of God to be found in Her is overwhelming.
I hope that was a useful response - I tend to go on and on.... :-).
Dale |
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| Cyndi - 2005-08-08 12:00 AM
I have a question for you guys?? Why is it that so many Christians and Catholics..and others refer to God as something outside of themselves?? This is the major conflict that I have with Christianity and Catholism.
Hello Cyndi :-)
The answer from a Christian perspective is that we are not the same as God. Our God has always existed, and always will exist. We, on the other hand, had a beginning - we are created beings. God made us. He made us in His image, but we are not God, and never will be God.
Dale |
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| I need to correct a concept here....
The Christian religion does have an us/ them aspect, which is particularly important when comparing religions. Zoebird's statements notwithstanding, Christianity claims to have the absolute truth about God, and further claims that only our God is God, and that all other gods are nothing but wood, stone, and myth.
As a belief system, any religion that recognizes any other God than YHWH is completely incompatible with Christianity.
Further, Christianity is based on absolute truth. In fact, our God is Truth itself, and every thing that is true is an image of Him. So we are concerned to get our doctrine right.
This brings up the twin concepts of doctrinal intolerance and civil tolerance. Doctrinal intolerance means that we do not accept doctrinal error. You are welcome to say that we are all part of God, for instance, but Christianity denies that , and will continue to deny that. We are called to speak religious truth as we see it, but to do so in a gentle manner.
In Christian thought, there are two spheres of authority, the religious and the civil. The church is not to take authority in civil matters. That doesn't mean that iChristians are forbidden to take part inpolitics - quite the opposite - but that the church is not to use the civil government to enforce religious law.
In fact, Christians are called to be peacemakers, helpers, and the champions of the weak. In summary, I am bound to point out errors in other religions, while absolutely defending your right to practice that religion in the (legal) manner of your choosing.
Frustrating at times, of course, and too often Christians have not been correctly taught.
Thought you'd like to know..... :-). |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | elson - 2005-08-11 3:32 AM
The answer from a Christian perspective is that we are not the same as God. Our God has always existed, and always will exist. We, on the other hand, had a beginning - we are created beings. God made us. He made us in His image, but we are not God, and never will be God.
Dale
So, what is the point?? What is the goal then?? The Christian perspective, of course. When I read that, it made me cringe. |
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| Thank you, Dale.
Are you referring to the Catholic Church as female? I like that! How very da Vinci Code.
I agree that "The Church's" wisdom is overhelming. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Catholic Church practices magic similar to Kabbalistic magic. The angels, archangels, vibrations, colors, differenet incense for different seasons, etc...
Magic probabaly isn't the right word but the "results" seem magical 
(I don't mind you elaborating!) |
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| church is called the 'bride of christ' and therefore 'she.'
and yes, there are many 'magical'elements to the church (such as transsubstantiation of the eucharist) thta are found in many religions, but not often found in much of protestantism. this is part of the reason why i don't participate in protestant 'communion' services--because the transsubstantiation process isn't there (many don't believe in it, and i do). so, this respects their beliefs and respects my beliefs (not participating).
the toughest thing is explaining to my MIL, who doesn't believe in trans sub why she can't take the eucharist. she thinks that catholics are being selfish. i've tried to explain that they're being protective of a very powerful act. To take the eucharist 'unprepared' (without confession first) is a sin. to take it as rebellion (as my MIL does), is also a sin--but not on her, but rather on me. I have to accept her sin as mine if i can't convince her to not take the eucharist because she doen't believe as catholics believe. This is why i didn't have a catholic wedding and she wasn't invited to the blessing mass that my husband and i had. She would have insisted on taking communion--even though she very loudly disagrees with the church's perspective on the eucharist AND on their stance to only allow those who believe in the eucharist as the catholic church teaches to participate (which, some protestants do, so they can participates). i simply didn't want to incur the sin-debt on my wedding day. My priest knew i was very upset about this, and we decided to not tell them about or invite them to the blessing service. Perhaps this was closed minded--but i've already had to do 7 novenas of rosaries for that sin--which i've also explained to my MIL and she said "oh, that's just silly." I'm sorry, i don't think any of this is 'just silly.'
--
but i was goign to talk about something else. Dale's statements notwithstanding,
there are *many* christians in *many* denominations who believe that there is one God and that people call this God by many names. Therefore, all of the religions are equal in dignity and importance. There are many christians in many denominations who believe that God is within us, in his various personas (father, son, holy spirit--which is feminine, btw). etc etc etc. |
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| zoebird, I'd say your MIL was being very selfish, especially on YOUR wedding day. Symbols are powerful.
In my Catholic school I remember the nuns saying they were married to Jesus  ok, whatever. I guess I get it a little more now. Seems weird, though, to make things female or male, like Latin languages. The pencil is masculine and books are femme (I'm just making that up). Yin-yang, yeah, yeah, I get it. |
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| i like my MIL, but we don't have the best relationship. she doesn't 'get' me at all. and i 'get' her--because she's got obvious patterns that fall into certain personality and psychological behavoirs. she can't see beyond herself, her perspective, etc. so, i 'get' her really well, and can basicly negotiate aronud her.
she hates the catholic church. i think at some level, it disturbs her that i'm catholic. my husband and i were married in a quaker meeting that we attend. then, the wedding was blessed by the church. my husband and i decided to omit this truth from his parents. he knew that they would be very upset. They're really upset that we're not UCC--like they are. But then, they wouldn't be UCC either, if the church 1/2 a block from them were anything else. they like the idea of convenience. |
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| elson - 2005-08-11 3:28 AM
The hard part is choosing to remember this when bad things happen to you. But God explains that the trials that we go thru are gifts to us from a loving Father who is training us to be like Him - loving and good - in the most difficult of circumstances.
That's is the key to life, isn't it? I'm certainly far from being like God (loving and good in all situations ) but I'd say I've come a long way from being a selfish twenty-something. I DO think it's a blessing when things don't go my way or, in fact, backfire. I communicate much more with God when things don't go exactly as I planned - or worse. Maybe God puts obstacles in the way He likes hearing from me 
As far as the Catholic Church goes...as much good as I think it has it still has one super big flaw of trying cover up child molestation. I can't help but think the CC is one big gay (man ) religion - all the single men, the virgin birth (like sex with women is icky  ) and not letting women take on any responsibility in the Church. Ok, I want to hear back, Zoe, Dale, Cyndi, et al...
PS I used to live in the Castro in SF and have plenty of gay "boyfriends" so I'm not gay-bashing, just noticing. |
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| "I think that's what motivates a lot of people when they talk about their religion. It makes me happy, and I want you to be happy, therefore I would like to share this with you. Unfortunately, many times we take this as an affront instead - MY religion makes ME happy, therefore YOU need to understand ME. We become more vested in getting our own point across and stop listening to the intent behind the words."
I am new here but I just wanted to say that these words above are probably the most thoughtful ones I have read in this whole post. As a Christian, who has discovered yoga, I do find myself looking into this wonderful faith that it originated from. Not because I want to convert, but because I have gotten so much out of my yoga and meditation practice, that I want to enhance what I already believe.
Anyway that is my 2 cents
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| Cyndi - 2005-08-11 8:15 AM
elson - 2005-08-11 3:32 AM
The answer from a Christian perspective is that we are not the same as God. Our God has always existed, and always will exist. We, on the other hand, had a beginning - we are created beings. God made us. He made us in His image, but we are not God, and never will be God.
Dale
So, what is the point?? What is the goal then?? The Christian perspective, of course. When I read that, it made me cringe.
I emphasize that this view is from the Xtn perspective to clarify that I am not speaking of your beliefs, but of mine. I'd look pretty silly explaining Buddhism to you :-). And no need to cringe - getting thumped with a virtual bible doesn't hurt much :-).
>> So, what's the point?
I love it! So, what is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything? Probably the most insightful question to come up on this board since I've reading it...
The point is that God, in His infinite love, desired a beloved. And not just one; being God, He is able to fully love as many as He desires. And so we were created. The church - those who love God and are called to be His - are the Bride of Christ. We shall be married at the end of the age, and dwell with Him forever. Kind of difficult to understand, but we can explore it if you wish :-).
Another point is that God desired to demonstrate His glory by creating a race of sentient beings with the ability to chose to do good or to do evil. He then offers goodness to that race. In those who choose the dark side, He demonstrates His glory by His perfect justice. In those who chose Good, He demonstrates His effective love (Great is the LORD, for His love endures forever!) by forgiving their sins and saving them. In addition, His glory is demonstrated by being the only one able to change a heart.
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| *Fifi* - 2005-08-11 10:26 AM
Thank you, Dale.
Are you referring to the Catholic Church as female? I like that! How very da Vinci Code.
I agree that "The Church's" wisdom is overhelming. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Catholic Church practices magic similar to Kabbalistic magic. The angels, archangels, vibrations, colors, differenet incense for different seasons, etc...
Magic probabaly isn't the right word but the "results" seem magical :wink:
(I don't mind you elaborating!)
Hello Fifi :-)
Well, the Church is the Bride of Christ, so it is appropriate to speak of her so :-).
Hmmm. I want to be careful here, because even though the Catholic Church has some seriously unbiblical doctrine, she is beloved of God, and God don't like folks dissin his Bride :-).
But I find magic a fascinating topic, and have thought about it a bit. Interestingly, the bible speaks often of magics, especially divination, poisoning, demonic partnerships and possession, &such. It does not speak of elemental magic, or things which primitive cultures would call magic but which we call science, or of superstitions. That is an important distinction.
If a thing that primitives might call magic is actually a technology, then the bible is silent concerning that practice. Acupuncture might fall into that category at the moment, as might particle theory. If it is a superstition, the bible calls that person a fool, and suggest ways for him to gain wisdom.
What the bible speaks of as magic is a supernatural practice that relies on the work of an entity. For instance, attempting to control a demon/spirit/elemental/dead person and such. These practices require an interaction with the forces of darkness (in our view :-), and so are forbidden, both for our protection & the protection of those around us.
Interestingly enough, the church practices holy magic!
If magic is a practice connected to a supernatural entity, you don't get much more supernatural than God :-). So it all depends on which team you are playing on, not whe tools that you use. A good example is a Xtn who prays to God, as opposed to a satanist who performs some ritual in an attempt to get a demon to do something or other.
This is actually a pretty consistent theme in the bible - that which is good is of God, and that which is bad is often a counterfeit.
I wish I had time to figure out how to do a table in html. Here's a fake table
Godly_______________UnGodly
------------------------------------------
done with God________done with other supernatural beings
earned wealth________stolen wealth
peace with God_______drunkenness
love in marriage_______fornication
wife/husband_________prostitute
pure________________adulterated
Dale
Edited by elson 2005-08-12 3:32 AM
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| *Fifi* - 2005-08-11 1:07 PM
zoebird, I'd say your MIL was being very selfish, especially on YOUR wedding day. Symbols are powerful.
In my Catholic school I remember the nuns saying they were married to Jesus ok, whatever. I guess I get it a little more now. Seems weird, though, to make things female or male, like Latin languages. The pencil is masculine and books are femme (I'm just making that up ). Yin-yang, yeah, yeah, I get it.
Indeed, in the afterlife, we will not male and female in the same way as we are now, and there will be no marriage as we know it. What there will be has not been revealed, and we'll just have to wait to find out...
It is the church in total that is/will be the Bride, not individual persons.
The union and intimacy between God and the church will be so amaxing as to make the most passionate of earthly marriages pale. But it will be fundamentally different, and this is not explained in all that much depth.
Just to complicate matters, Xtns are also sons and daughters of the Father, and brothers and sisters of Jesus.
The purpose fo the analogies is to illustrate (sort o flike a koan_ the intensity and depth of the relationship, and to show that it will be different from any earthly relationship that we currently enjoy.
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| Thank you, again, Dale.
I did a search yesterday on this site and I see that the topic of Christianity has already been discussed in great length in a previous thread. The same tight-lipped lady with the bad, 1980's hair started it all with her "Christian Yoga Blah-De-Blah".
Anyway, I've said this before, Dale, you are very well researched and articulate. Are you published? If so, where?
I am still interested in comment regarding pediphilia in the Catholic Church. Nevermind homosexuality, although the pediphiles in the Catholic Church are homosexual. Someone's sexual preference never bothers me, as long as it's human, of age and consensual. I'm not interested in starting a fight, I just want to know if I'm a hypocrite if I go to Church even though I totally disdain the repugnant behavior of relocating deviant criminals in Catholic parishes.
Cheers to you, too - |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | elson - 2005-08-12 3:08 AM
The point is that God, in His infinite love, desired a beloved. And not just one; being God, He is able to fully love as many as He desires. And so we were created. The church - those who love God and are called to be His - are the Bride of Christ. We shall be married at the end of the age, and dwell with Him forever. Kind of difficult to understand, but we can explore it if you wish :-).
Another point is that God desired to demonstrate His glory by creating a race of sentient beings with the ability to chose to do good or to do evil. He then offers goodness to that race. In those who choose the dark side, He demonstrates His glory by His perfect justice. In those who chose Good, He demonstrates His effective love (Great is the LORD, for His love endures forever!) by forgiving their sins and saving them. In addition, His glory is demonstrated by being the only one able to change a heart.
Hey Dale,
I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me. I think its very interesting for me to revisit this considering I was brought up in the Christian/Baptist faith, but I never took it all in literally because I knew in the back of my mind that there was more...lots more and that it was incomplete for me and my path. My relationship with the universe has been such a personal experience that I just don't have any words to describe it, nor do I want to really. However, in regards to your statements, it intriques me about the being married at the end part - let's talk about that some more, do you mind?? I always think of the Brahman when I hear someone say something like this in nature. What happens to the people who are doing *bad*??
Thanks!
Here is something from the Upanishad,
Apaani-paado-aham-achintya-shaktih pashyaam-achakshuh sa shrinomyakarnah.
Aham vijaanaami viviktaroopo na chaastivetta mama chitsadaaham.
Translation:
I am without hands and feet, I am Brahman endowed with incomprehensible power; I see without eyes, hear without the ears, detached from (intellect, etc), I am the only eternal Knower, there is none other Knower than Me.
Kaivalya Upanishad 21
Explanation
The majestic experience of Self-realization is further described: The little "I" in a human being is his fictitious identity. Identified with the ego self he is dependent of the senses and mind to experience the world of multiplicity, which is nothing but the protection of Maya. Whatever is experienced in the realm of Maya is illusory - like moving pictures in a cinema show. But, the eternal "I Am" is like the screen - ever the same; or like the source of Light - the Absolute Consciousness. Therefore, "I am the only Knower."
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Promoting a Christian Alternat
