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| Hello Fifi :-)
Sorry - Zoebird & I got off on a sidebar conversation about a complicated subject. She claims to speak for Christiality, but her beliefs are not consistent with the beliefs of the Catholic church, or any other major group of Christians, so QED, her beliefs are not representative of Christianity.
>> Are you saying Catholics practicing Zen Meditation are heretics?
Not necessarily. We have to get much more detailed than "Zen meditation." :-). Now let me say that I am not an expert on Zen meditation, so I can't speak to the significant details of Zen practice.
Let me clarify "heretic." The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church is an outline of Catholic doctrine, which is what defines Catholicism. The Catechism is composed of De Fide statements and other statements. The De Fide statements must be believed by the Catholic for that person to be in full Communion with the RCC. Catholics who disagree with the De Fides are in error. Catholics who knowingly teach error are known as heretics.
I can't say that everything in Zen is error. Only those parts of Zen that contradict the De Fides are in error. Whether or not a certain practice is in error is sometimes open to interpretation. It doesn't matter if the practice is Zen or yoga or aerobics or swimming - it is the individual elements that must be analysed.
To try to sum up :-), yoga asana and pranayama are not generally an issue; any chanting or singing that recognizes some other being than YHWH as God is a problem. My arguement with Zoegirl centers on the exclusive diety of YHWH. Any religion or philosophy that denies that YHWH (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) is God, and that only YHWH is God, is incompatible with Christianity.
Any religion or philosophy that teaches a different method of salvation than that taught in the bible & in the De Fides is in error.
If that doesn't answer the question, let me know!
My faith comes from Adam&Eve, who God created. It kept Noah steadfast as he worked for 120 years to build the Ark. It flows in the blood of Abraham, who God called out of Ur of the Chaldeans to become a great race. It defined the lives of Isaiac & Jacob. It upheld the righteousness of Joseph, who saved Egypt from a great famine. It gave the courage that a desert shepherd named Moses needed to repeatedly confront a hostile Phaoroh who did not know joseph. It parted the sea and brought the fire of Heaven down.
It is the faith of Jesus, called the Christ, and it allowed Him to bear the punishment for the sins of all of those who would be saved. It is the faith of the Apostles and the Prophets, and it was the faith of the catholic church for several hundred years after the death of Jesus. It is the faith of Martin Luthor and John Calvin and the other Reformers. Today, it is the faith of most of the Protestants in the world.
My particular church is Presbyterian (PCA).
My studies run the gamut of the Christian experience; Catholicism, the Marian Cult, various Protestant flavors; Pentecostal, Charismatic, Reformed. I am a student of systematic theology, which seeks to understand the full council of God on the subjects that He has addressed.
I am a student of philosophy. I talk/type too much :-).
I'm not here to try to convince any nonChristians to become Christians, because my theology holds that only God can change a person's heart and mind, not me. I wish more people in more religions understood that!
I like an interesting discussion of things religious and philosophical, and I will correct Christians about their faith when they stray from sound doctrine.
Cheers.............Dale
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| The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is the Vatican's watchdog body for doctrinal orthodoxy.
Actually the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has another name that more people are familiar with. Oddly enough they've changed from "The Inquisition", to this more respectable title. Doesn't appear that the mission has changed any. Frankly I find it very disturbing that the new pope was once a member of an organization that is historically infamous for it's bloody atrocities against humanity. Frankly, I'd take whatever they advised me not to do, and do it.
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| Dale:
actually, it's not your responsibility to correct christians if they stray out of doctrine, because quite frankly you don't know enough about the individual christian's interior life and whether or not or how far they do stray out of doctrine.
that being said, i think it's important to note that i never said that i spoke for the whole of christianity or of catholicism or that all christians and catholics believed as i do or practice as i do. in fact, i simply stated that these ideas that are within other religions also exist within christianity--and in that way there is shared belief. Not all christians are fundamentalist or afraid of zen meditation, yoga or pranayama--as you mention. This was also my statement.
the woman written about in the article stated that practicing yoga was dangerous because of it's connection with eastern religions and faith practices (as well as philosophy and cultural ideology). She said that christians shouldn't practice yoga in order to remain a christian. In some ways, many of your statements were similar--and i believe both arrogant and errant.
i have no need for "Dale on the internet" to correct me in my catholicism. As i said, the ideas that i've written about here, that i say exist in orthodox (as compared to neofundamental) christianity, are in fact present in modern orthodox christianity--as in the Zen Catholic movement. This movement is 'approved' or appropriate by the vatican. My confessor--who is a catholic cannon lawyer (perhaps you keep missing that i say so)--has not made mention that my ideas or my understanding of the breadth of beliefs and practices within catholicism which includes individuals in the zen catholic movement and may extend (though doesn't currently) to the 'other extreme' of 'traditional catholics' (those such as Mel Gibson). To teach that these beliefs exist and are practiced and approved is certainly not a heretical statement.
As to the catechism, i completely agree with your interpretation, which was basicly what i said anyway. there are dogmatic elements--with which i agree, which keeps me from being schismatic--and then there are doctrinal elements--many of which i agree with, and many others that i don't agree with or agree with that particular logic or application. Since the faith is a living faith, since doctrines change over time, i think this is an appropriate, healthy perspective of individual and group faith development.
Since my priest of 18 years is well aware of my interior religious life, i think that you, as i do, should leave it to him to decide if i am a heretic. Since he has yet to mention such a thing, or withhold the sacriments, i tend to think that I am not a heretic, regardless of what "Dale from the internet" has to say on the matter.
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| Hey Dale,
Thanks for your response. I hope this doesn't get too personal or like I'm making this thread all about me but I have another question for you. Maybe I should just PM you or something...
Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about God and Christianity lately and I'm wondering if "I'm getting it". So, is it safe to say that a deep belief in the miraculous power of God can conquer anything? I've had experiences where I know God is changing the course of a situation or an event - always for a positive outcome beyond my belief. I'm beginning to think I never need to worry about anything ever again. Is this too simplistic?
Also, I don't buy that the Vatican speaks for God. I've seen children who are more "tuned in". They are closer to the "source" than some old, disconnected-from-reality archbishop.
Please comment & thank you ~ Fifi |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I have a question for you guys?? Why is it that so many Christians and Catholics..and others refer to God as something outside of themselves?? This is the major conflict that I have with Christianity and Catholism.
Fifi, that concept of never having to worry about anything again is great! But there is a catch to that...in order to truly live from that kind of place, you must have sincere devotion, trust in the universe...another words you can't be wishy washy with your thoughts and actions, its kind of like a dance, and if you veer off the course, well, all that will vanish and you will go back into fear and worry. This is where I like the Buddhist and Hindu philosophy of the middle way. Not too high and not too low. Same principal applies to fear and worry...Not too tight and not too loose either. The world is not perfect and we must learn how to master all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly - every single thing. God is within you, not outside, he's not that little man that sits in the sky judging whether we are good or bad. We all have Buddha nature inside us and its up to us whether or not we want to tap into that source, or continue with the struggle of seeking it outside of ourselves. As Jesus taught, we should be in the world and not OF the world. Knowing this and truly living from that truth is liberating. When I think of the words fear and worry, I think of attachment right behind it. If there were no attachments, it would be easier to access God. |
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| Cyndi:
that, i do not know. The bible clearly states that God is within us. In John Chapt 1, it clearly says that the Light that lights every person--and refers that to the Logos (Word) that was with God from the beginning.
as a catholic and thereby a christian, i was taught that God resides in the hearts of all people (and in particular, christ resides in the hearts of all christians). Thereby, God is both imminently present and yet transcendental as well. Since i was taught this in catholicism and christianity, i do not know why other christians, catholics, and those like yourself who hear their language, seem to think otherwise.
it's partly how i see so much connection with other faith traditions. The ipsa upanishad says "Bright is the Self (God), Imminent and Transcendent!" the first time i read this, i think i popped! i see so much commonality between the ideas and philosophies of hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, judaism, christianity, islam--etc etc--that i just about pop with excitement. |
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| fifi:
i agree with many of your points, and i think that they deserve some attention. children have an innate sense of ultimate reality. it is, as cyndi said, because they are more 'in' the world than 'of' the world. the world is a wonder to them, an joy, and they live from the spirit because of their innocence and their connection to themselves.
some children, through certain socialization structures, though, do not live from this place. too young, they are robbed of their spirit and forced into a life of rules and consequences that may squash their individuality. This happens all over the world, in any number of ways (including child abuse), regardless of religion. In this case, it's generally people and pockets of society behaving badly from a place of deep suffering and loss of spirit.
Adults have the same capacity as children have, which of course christ mentioned. he said that if you are to come to the kingdom of heaven (which is as hand) then you must come to it *as* a little child. I marked the 'as' for a reason, because it refers to the mindset of the child, not so much the 'childishness' or the age--but that open, curious, innocent mind.
as adults, many of us have lost our feeling for that light within--God within--which guides us (also or often called the holy spirit, which is the driving force behind the joy of pentecost; sometimes as refered to christ within; and sometimes simply refered to as God within---in christiantity at least) to find ways out of those rules, regulations, ideas and other things that bind us 'Of the world" instead of simply "in the world." By connecting to this innocent, divine within, we come to the kingdom of heaven as little children (of God).
truthfully, whether one is an ancient archbishop who seems out of touch (he may not be, he may just be old, of another time, and deeply rooted in his own interior life--as i know many whom people consider harsh and out of touch who are deeply loving, struggling to maintain that balance of 'in the world and not of it' as christ said, the way is narrow, and that middle way is narrow) or just your average person struggling to get through a day, the divine within is a constant companion and guide--if only we have ears to hear.
this is why i *love* the process of contemplative prayer so much. it is *very* hard work, but i love it. i have loved it since i first started on contemplative prayer at age 11. i was taught how to meditate then. how to then turn to the scriptures and read them, and then with a prayerful, focused mind, turn to the divine within to guide my learning on the verse (following Thomas Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation text). It is such a beautiful process of consistantly turning to the divine within, that you build a deep relationship with that Divine and begin to move from that space beyond the time and space of contemplative prayer.
it is a great blessing. definately a practice worth looking into! |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, Zoebird, the church may say that *some* of the time, but they don't live or act out accordingly. That is my experience in the church, being brought up as a Baptist and marrying a Catholic later in life. You cannot compare this type philosophy with Buddhism with Christianity and certainly not Hinduism...that I do know because my husband is Hindu and it is not the same and culturally speaking, Christianity and Catholism has no place in Hinduism. In fact, I cringe when I hear how the Christians and their missionaries go to other countries trying to convert Hindu's and the natives of South America...its BS!! I think India had them thrown out not too long ago, and they should be thrown out! |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-08-08 10:26 AM
i agree with many of your points, and i think that they deserve some attention. children have an innate sense of ultimate reality. it is, as cyndi said, because they are more 'in' the world than 'of' the world. the world is a wonder to them, an joy, and they live from the spirit because of their innocence and their connection to themselves.
Wait a minute..that is not what Cyndi said, nor what Jesus said. Jesus taught that we should Live in the world, but NOT of the world. Which meant that we are not to get attached to, and be involved with worldy things. Children are not aware of this ultimate reality, they are just in a pure state of being simply because they are children and their minds are ready for learning. It is up to the parents & teachers to teach and enforce this - and the children must accept this as their truth as well, otherwise, children will grow up and be IN the world. Most adults cannot even grasp this concept, so how can it be taught?? Sorry folks, this is barely happening in today's world. I'm speaking from a homeschool perceptive here and is why I do it.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-08-08 10:37 AM
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| cyndi:
that is what i said. Children are in the world, and not of the world. Christ said that we are to be in the world, but not of the world. I agree, it's about attachment. I read the paragraph that you quoted twice, and that's what i said.
also, to me, being in a simple, pure state of being is being in ultimate reality. buddha was in a simple, pure state of being. christ taught that we must approach the kingdom of god as little children, with a simple, pure state of being open for learning. this is the state of openness that is deeply present in and aware of ultimate reality (which is another term for God that i use, among others) such that they can be in the world but not of the world. Meaning, fully present here, but nonattached.
it's amazing how christianity and buddhism/vedanta/hinduism overlap.
(i hope to homeschool too.)
Edited by zoebird 2005-08-08 10:45 AM
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| you know what, i think the teaching of in the world and not of it came from paul--to be specific. divinely inspired, of course, but not a direct teaching from christ. i'm going to look it up for certain. |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-08-08 10:47 AM
you know what, i think the teaching of in the world and not of it came from paul--to be specific. divinely inspired, of course, but not a direct teaching from christ. i'm going to look it up for certain.
What difference does it make who said what?? Its a universal truth and doesn't matter. Besides, Christ transmitted it to Paul, therefore it came from Christ!!!!
All Christianity and Catholism is, are diluted versions of Hinduism and Buddhism - they do not overlap. They left out the important facts so that they could control their flocks...which is why the world is so screwed up right now! |
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| i completely disagree regarding your assertion of christianity as compared to eastern traditions. your attitude about christianity/catholicism is of the same ilk as the woman who is providing a 'christian alternative' to yoga because of the 'dangers' of yoga--you're disparaging christianity as she is disparaging the tradition of yoga. i find it really sad.
i think it's important to note the author or origin of it within it's context. i agree that it's a universal truth--and that many people other than christian or jewish or muslim have said the statement. but in it's context in the scripture, the origin is important. I looked it up and it is paul, specifically, who wrote it. it doesn't change it's importance, it simply is more clear as to it's origin in the christian scriptures.
Edited by zoebird 2005-08-08 12:18 PM
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You think what you like and be sad...but that is not true. If you were to dig a little deeper and go back into the history of mankind, you will see for yourself. I think you are being very naive. Don't compare me to someone else, you don't know me Zoebird, you only think you do from a small amount of typed conversation. Get the facts straight before you start hurling accusations like that girlfriend. |
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| ok, here are the facts:
this is a direct quote taken from the article that you posted that is claimed by willis:
"From experience I can say that yoga is a dangerous practice for the Christian and leads
seekers away from God rather than to him.
and you wrote:
All Christianity and Catholism is, are diluted versions of Hinduism and Buddhism - they do not overlap. They left out the important facts so that they could control their flocks...which is why the world is so screwed up right now!
YOu are saying that christiantity is basicly not as good as hinduism and buddhism, that they are used as control mechanisms and thereby aren't real or valid faith prctices which cannot lead a person to God and is also entirely responsible for why the world is screwed up.
They are the same sentiment. You can believe whta you want. But those are the facts. Both are a sentiment of xenophobia and exclusivity.
I have studied the facts regardign the origins of christianity, the crossovers and influences of eastern ideas over the religion (did you not even read my post about how the term christ originates in the term krishna?). I'm not as naive as you might think. I'm also not uneducated.
i also don't have the ego to tell someone that their spirituality is wrong, that it leads them and others away from God, that it leads them away from truth, that it gets facts or ideas wrong, and therefore is responsbile for the world being screwed up.
Edited by zoebird 2005-08-08 12:47 PM
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
This is your perception of my words and you have twisted them to seek some kind of issue with me regarding Christianity, almost as if you are trying to convince me or validate your religion or belief. I am entitled to my opinion, especially when it comes to the Christian vs. Eastern Philosophies, as I too have studied them in depth, I also live and pratice the culture. You do not know what your talking about it.
I NEVER said that someone else's spirituality is wrong, I would be the last person to say that. I did however say that Christianity, Catholism and the events that are happening in the world right now are screwed up, all in the name of God! Just take a good look at our GWB and all his Christian followers. Go read the horror stories about the new pope, he's a creep. As for the outcome of this event, I have no attachments to it and I'm not dwelling in it. But, as an observer, I can certainly see the problems and conflicts. That is not EGO. If you want to view it as such, that would be your problem, not mine. It's not your place to measure my EGO. My EGO is in check thank you very much.
Nor did I say that Hinduism & Buddhism is better than Christianity..I said that Christianity and Catholism were diluted versions of the two and that the leaders of the church left out important facts so that they could control the human race -which is where we are right now...no one is thinking for themselves, they rely on their church, their media, their president, their government to live. Good grief! It's kind of hard to practice yoga wouldn't you think if a person is trained in not being able to think for himself, which is basically about 70% of the human population and getting stronger every day?? No intuitive incentives here, God forbid. Then there are the other few that are seeking the dharma!!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-08-08 1:21 PM
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| i don't see how i'm twisting your words. Your words say that christianity is invalid, particularly as compared to hinduism and buddhism. your words say that christianity is the cause of the problems today.
they do not say that certain christian ideas or groups are problematic and are leading to certain problems within our mordern culture or world. They do not say that GWB is responsible for this or that the new pope is responsible for that.
i say that some christians get it wrong, that some leaders get it wrong, and that some people use god as an excuse. The hindu fundamentalist/extremists in india do no different--and they are just as violent. Yet, i dont' blame hinduism for these problems, simply the extremists. You took a few examples of individuals--who are the minority in christianity (those of GWB's type of christian) and then extract that to the whole of christianity getting it wrong, and causing the world's problems.
one can observe and speak clearly. obviously, you didn't. if you don't believe that christianity is perse invalid, then don't say so. i wasn't twisting your words. i read what you wrote and responded. i'm not upset, angry, or anything else. I find it sad that people hold such ideas that their religion or belief is more valid or important than someone elses. I can certainly see where people let their beliefs go awry--and if i feel so compelled, i'll bring it up. generally speaking, i leave it between the individual and God. It's not my place to chastize or correct someone. But, i find the ideas that Willis holds regarding yoga to be sad. Similarly, i hold your idea of christianity--as you stated it and i quoted it--to be sad.
I certainly don't need my faith practice validated. Every day, someone like you or dale or the woman in the article, or some buddhist or some pagan or whomever else feels the strong need to criticize my practice, to correct me, to chastize me. While i'm willing to read their ideas, hear their complaints regarding my faith practice, and even reflect on them to determine their validity, i have often discovered that i'm doing just fine and i am happy with how i practice and with what i believe. I love to study religion and spirituality--to compare religions and learn from them. This is why i study scriptures from various religions. This is why i spend my time with various religious teachers (mostly hindu and jain, vedanta, buddhist, and catholic). This is why i practice yoga, meditation, contemplative prayer, confession, etc.
i'm happy with where i am. i'm happy to share what i believe with others. I'm happy to let others have their beliefs and share them with me--even those like GWB, with whom i may disagree. but i don't blame the whole religion for one powerful man's decisions. |
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| Cyndi - I think the term "diluted" infers that something is "lesser-than" what it came from. I also find "you don't know what you are talking about" makes people feel they are being attacked.
I think we can all agree that extremism is dangerous but these conversations show how quickly reasonable people trying to have a reasonable discussion can go astray. Can we leave it at that or at least try to keep the conversation on an even keel?
On a lighter note, since GWB is in the thread now, there was an article in our paper this weekend about a man who, as a child, knew Hitler. He said, "When people talk about GWB being like Hitler, I have to disagree. At least Hitler could speak the language."  |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2005-08-08 8:26 PM
I think we can all agree that extremism is dangerous but these conversations show how quickly reasonable people trying to have a reasonable discussion can go astray. Can we leave it at that or at least try to keep the conversation on an even keel?
So another words, you want me to speak from a place that has the *tourist* approval?? That would take away from this interesting discussion which we know already has a tendency to bring on the heat, now would it not?? Your idea of an even keel might be different from mine and the others. Also, your idea of going astray could also be different as well. In either case, then that would be a form of control now would it not?? Almost like the church itself and heaven forbid anyone disagree with that, right? Just an observation,  in good faith and an on even keel,  |
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| It's definitely funnier to read if everyone continues to use inflammatory language - when you post something that comes across nasty, I just cringe and can't wait to read the angry responses. We're not chatting in person, so a friendly tone and a pat on the shoulder is non-existent here. No amount of smiley faces or LOL's actually soften a phrase like we think it will. I've been guilty of this plenty of times, and I've certainly been hurt and offended by the way people respond at times.
Just heard GWB on the radio today discussing the new NUCULAR energy bill, where he said the word over and over and over. You'd think by this time an advisor would have pulled him aside and said "Sir, the word is NU-CLE-AR." |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I know what you mean Jean, just like Zoebird saying that she was sad about my comments and comparing me to someone else, made me feel uncomfortable and a little disturbed, but yet at the same time, what I was trying to convey was totally misperceived by someone who put their perceptions into what I was saying, and then of course one thing led to another and I had to say it, "You don't know what your talking about", because in my mind, her perception was wrong about me and she misunderstood my words. Oh good grief Charlie Brown!
Anyway, as far as this topic goes, I really don't want to have this Christian discussion and I'm going to try to refrain from getting too involved, because this is my experience with Christians and Catholics and I really don't like it. I have to deal with this within my family all the time and fortunately for me, I live in the mountains and stay away from this as much as possible. I am not placing myself higher or lower, or better than, I just think that these kinds of misunderstandings are difficult when your dealing with these certain kinds of people. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone by my statements or opinions. Resume - Discuss.
GWB needs to learn how to pronounce Americans...that accent makes me cringe when I hear him, |
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| I'll probably regret saying this, but... Just for the record - Catholics ARE Christians. I don't know why I keep hearing this lately... but just in this thread alone, several people have said "Christians and Catholics" or "Catholics and Christians". I don't understand the separation there... you might say Catholics are the original Christians. Just FYI! Namaste, Echo |
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| Maybe it should just be referred to as "Catholics and Protestants" to refer to organized Christian religion. Not sure how non-Christians feel about UNorganized Christian religion - that may be fodder for another thread all together! |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Empress Echo - 2005-08-08 10:29 PM
I'll probably regret saying this, but... Just for the record - Catholics ARE Christians. I don't know why I keep hearing this lately... but just in this thread alone, several people have said "Christians and Catholics" or "Catholics and Christians". I don't understand the separation there... you might say Catholics are the original Christians. Just FYI! Namaste, Echo
Well, from my part of the country and the way my Daddy *tried his darndest* to raise me as Southern Baptist, that simply ain't true. Catholics in the Southern Baptist eyes are demonic and evil. After being married for just a brief time to a Catholic, they didn't have very high opinions about Baptist, Methodist, Buddhist, Hindu or anyone else for that matter. Oh well, from what you are saying Echo, they must be finally evolving. |
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| Cyndi - you certainly don't need my approval to post what you think. I pointed out a couple of the phrases that I thought might be problematic hoping to keep the conversation going without getting out of hand. As Jean says, it is highly entertaining when things get heated, but "You said this", "No I didn't, I said this," "No, that's wrong, I said this and YOU said that" is not scintillating debate. I can hear it on the playground at work.
The Catholic/Christian things is a good point. I think the southern US is probably the only place taht distinction is made in that way. Weird and sad.
One thing that always comes to my mind during these discussions is that it becomes clear that NO world belief system has got it exactly "right." Every group, sect and schismatic off-shoot has war, poverty, starvation, violence, crime, disagreement, power struggles etc. It sounds like the Tibetans were close to having it all but their focus on the internal and spiritual worlds and isolationist politics led them to be out of touch with reality and the Chinese invaded. It is the kind of thing that makes people like me uncomfortable with organised religions. If reasonable, intelligent, well-read people can disagree so vehemently on little points and semantics, what hope is there for any true meeting of the minds or spirits? If every religion has the US vs. THEM attitude, we will always be separate and never be able to work together to build a world many of the religions claim to want. Sad. |
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Promoting a Christian Alternat
