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Promoting a Christian Alternat
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tourist
Posted 2005-08-12 8:02 PM (#29706 - in reply to #29679)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte



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fifi - I think you are ok to go to church when you know there are repugnant acts done by some individuals because you are ok with belonging to the human race even though there are repugnant acts done by some individuals, living in your country, state, city, etc. The choice of opting out of some fo those is there but .... I think the line for me would come about when I found that the very church or parish or whatever that I belonged to had been knowingly harbouring and protecting those individuals. It would be similar in a work place or other social group. If I found my boss was hiding the fact that a co-worker was a pedophile or a drug dealer or whatever, I would feel compelled to leave. But in spite of the fact that I know there probably are some in my field, does not make me want to leave that field. In my case, it is child care and we screen pretty carefully, but in reality, well, it us bound to happen. And as a yoga teacher as well. We have all heard the scandals and it just makes me personally feel more obligated to act ethically in all ways to support the profession of yoga teaching and to help people understand that, although it does happen, it is NOT the norm.
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Posted 2005-08-12 10:24 PM (#29714 - in reply to #29706)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


Amen Tourist, I totally agree with you. We are all human and thankfully, God knows our heart.

Dale, thanks for all of the enlightment of the Christian faith and Cindy, I enjoy reading about the Buddist's faith. I have a few patient's that have the wooden beads. One wears them on his wrist and is Buddist and the other gentleman has them on a leather string and plays with them while I clean his teeth.

Both of these men got the beads in Viet Nam, the latter man is not Buddist, but said if he was not Catholic, he would be Buddist because he respected it so much. Interesting! The beads were given to these guys by the chaplin.
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elson
Posted 2005-08-13 3:54 AM (#29724 - in reply to #29679)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


I only write on the internet, or for reading in church. I have learned from really skilled and gifted theologians, and I don't see myself having anything to add to their work...

As for the pedafiles in the RCC, I reckon a sociopath is a sociopath, no matter where they are hiding out. Folks who have been accused should be investigated, and if indited, brought to trial. If found guilty, they should be punished according to the law of the land. Anyone found guilty of acting as an accessory should also be punished accordingly. Their being priests or bishops or whatever should have no bearing on the matter.

In theological terms, they have broken the government's law, and now must answer to the government.

I don't know what God's going to do to them, but it isn't going to be pretty...

>> I just want to know if I'm a hypocrite if I go to Church even though I totally disdain the repugnant behavior of relocating deviant criminals in Catholic parishes.

Good question! Do you respect the moral authority of the Catholic Church? Because I don't think that this is really about perverts in the Church per se. I think that the Catholic Church has taught you to have faith in it, instead of in God. And now the Church has broken faith by these horrible sins.

Now would be a good time to figure out who you do trust. If you still trust God, then you now have to decide who speaks for God. If you still believe that the Catholic Church speaks for God, then you will forgive them their sins, and come to a new & wiser relationship with the Church.

If you find that you no longer trust the Catholic Church to speak for God, then we can talk about that in another post... :-)

Dale
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*Fifi*
Posted 2005-08-13 12:01 PM (#29742 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


Dale,

You hit the nail on the head. And the answer is no. No way can an institution come inbetween my relationship with God. I can't believe the epiphany I'm having on the internet with people I've never met. I mean I've thought of this since I was a kid! And now, typing on the computer 30-some years later I get it? How slow am I?

Sorry to be a thread hog! Thanks for everyone's reponses. I'd like to continue this topic but I'm feeling like I'm making this all about me. So, I'll sign off for now. Please know I appreciate everyone's input - Cyndi, Tourist, Zoe...Thank! fifi
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tourist
Posted 2005-08-13 12:51 PM (#29744 - in reply to #29742)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte



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fifi - it is great, isn't it? A worldwide think tank. I am sure we could solve some of the world's problems if we all tried a bit harder

It has been nip and tuck whether this thread was kept alive or not. Congrats to all for keeping it sane and civil
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Posted 2005-08-13 3:26 PM (#29755 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


i have to agree with what the others wrote--particularly tourist and dale--regarding the situation of priests or other religious leaders doing horrible things or unlawful things.

it certainly does inspire me to try and do better. i feel very comfortable in the catholic church because it seems to connect to a higher reality and teach people how to connect to that themselves. The wonderful quote about testing things that was stated by the Buddha and placed on here by Cyndi was what i was taught throughout my christian education as a catholic. I was taught not to put my faith in the church, but to put my faith in God--and use the spiritual disciplines to gain wisdom, discernment, etc, and develop a relationship with God.

my husband, on the other hand, says that there are many things in the catholic church with which he does not agree--for him, too many things. He believes that it's probably the closest as far as 'getting the ideas right' and teaching the spiritual disciplines and personal responsibility aspects, but he simply doesn't agree with enough of the social ideologies as he would like in order to become a member.

since i am a member, i feel that if there is something in the church that i don't like, it's my responsibility to work within the church and change it. There's an organization that wants homosexuals and their relationships recognized--the organization is called Dignity. There's an organization who works for women priests--Daughters of Sarah. There's an organization for just about every social injustice that people see in or by the church--groups working for change to be a true "Bride of Christ" (which, as Dale mentioned, refers to the whole body of the 'church'--meaning all christians regardless of denominations).

to me, i don't need my husband to be a member. he needs to follow his own path--and that's ok by me. I understand that he doesn't want to join a club that he'll then have to work to change. It doesn't make sense. But it does make sense to him that i would be in the church and working to change it for the better. One of the groups that i work with is Corpus Christi--which is an organization that fights the death penalty throughout the world. This organization was part of the reason that the ammendments to the chatechism in 1997 included a statement regarding the death penalty--that the catholic church no longer supported it! This is now officially part of the doctrine, thanks to the work of individuals like Sister Prejean and groups like Corpus Christi.

So, we all find a place. And some of us aren't meant for the changing work, either. It is enough for us to go there for spiritual and personal nourishment--find the food for the soul that is there--and leave the rest of it in God's hands. And that's ok too. it's just as important.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2005-08-13 11:26 PM (#29769 - in reply to #29637)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte



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elson - 2005-08-12 3:29 AM

But I find magic a fascinating topic, and have thought about it a bit. Interestingly, the bible speaks often of magics, especially divination, poisoning, demonic partnerships and possession, &such. It does not speak of elemental magic, or things which primitive cultures would call magic but which we call science, or of superstitions. That is an important distinction.

If a thing that primitives might call magic is actually a technology, then the bible is silent concerning that practice. Acupuncture might fall into that category at the moment, as might particle theory. If it is a superstition, the bible calls that person a fool, and suggest ways for him to gain wisdom.

What the bible speaks of as magic is a supernatural practice that relies on the work of an entity. For instance, attempting to control a demon/spirit/elemental/dead person and such. These practices require an interaction with the forces of darkness (in our view :-), and so are forbidden, both for our protection & the protection of those around us.

Interestingly enough, the church practices holy magic!

If magic is a practice connected to a supernatural entity, you don't get much more supernatural than God :-). So it all depends on which team you are playing on, not whe tools that you use. A good example is a Xtn who prays to God, as opposed to a satanist who performs some ritual in an attempt to get a demon to do something or other.

This is actually a pretty consistent theme in the bible - that which is good is of God, and that which is bad is often a counterfeit.

I wish I had time to figure out how to do a table in html. Here's a fake table

Godly_______________UnGodly
------------------------------------------
done with God________done with other supernatural beings
earned wealth________stolen wealth
peace with God_______drunkenness
love in marriage_______fornication
wife/husband_________prostitute
pure________________adulterated

Dale


Hi Dale,

I'm just coming into this thread, back from a nice trip, and I haven't read the
whole thing. I did want to respond to one thing in the above table (btw, you
use the html tags table, tr (row), td (for elements in columns), etc.)

When you mention "god" and "other supernatural beings", I'm immediately
drawn to the question of how god is identified (or defined) and who these
other beings are. For example, suppose that we have a whole bunch of supernatural
beings one of whom is actually god. Then I can see easily how others can
masquerade as god or offer their services in his place. But suppose instead
that the question is my religion's version of god as opposed to another
religion's version of god. How do we sort that out? And, for that matter, how
do you (or I) know that the god we follow is not, in fact, a pretender?

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elson
Posted 2005-08-14 3:12 AM (#29773 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


Fifi :-)

Well, you know, this thread was pretty much done with previous topics before you chimed in with some interesting stuff :-).

I like what tourist said about the presense of pervs in an organization not discrediting the organization unless the org tries to cover it up, and then only the folks who are doing the coverup are dirty. Very good point!

Also, as I understand it, the Vatican was prodded into action by the outcry of the faithful as much as anything else. My guess is that if the faithful had not raise holy hell about this, it would still be covered up. That leads me to think about the increasing role of lay people in the RCC. You might feel more ownership for your church if you moved more into servant leadership. Something to think about.

However, if your theology drives you out of the RCC, then you have to go. But do not leave the faith because the RCC no longer seems like the true church to you - there are alot of Protestant churches. But you might want to look for a church whose statement of faith matches your beliefs, and one that you might come to trust enough that you would trust them to teach the bible correctly.

I've had to go thru this a couple of times, and it is not fun. But my understanding of God grew past the theology of a church, and led me to conclusions that were not acceptable to that church, so I went to a church whose theology more nearly matched mine.

I'm going to start another thread that should be interesting - the role of Truth in religion, and how the Truth is detected and determined. Ought to be fun :-).
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aprilviolets
Posted 2006-11-20 4:47 AM (#69736 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


I totally embrace the idea of Christian Yoga - I feel it will help me with my faith and my body... but I suspect this woman of really trying to sell this "alternative" idea. From what I've seen, she's essentially the only one offering such an "alternative". I don't think it's really as different as she'd have us believe, anyway... This just feels very marketed, and I've found my gut is often accurate.

I'm not trying to be judgemental of her - that's just my honest impression.
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joscmt
Posted 2006-12-02 7:32 AM (#70812 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


I'm coming in really late in the game.. both in this thread and in my spiritual life... I was lost for a really long time and have only in the last 2 years been working myself back in.. I tend to shy away from organized religion because I have a hard time separating the messenger from the message. There seems to be so much corruption around- with molestation, with the TV evangelists, etc.. that I have a hard time listening to the "word of God" coming out of thier mouths. Now, that's not to say I will always feel like that.. but now, for me, I have to listen to the message in my own heart and not rely on messengers I don't yet trust....
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Kym
Posted 2007-01-04 1:15 AM (#72785 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


Bay Guy,
I used to question who was right, like I think you're saying. I was on the brink of Christianity, and wanted to believe, and could feel God trying to get me, but I was fighting it. I read a book called The 23rd Paslm, and that was it. I was a believer. Then, and this is the book I recommend for you, I read The Case for Christ. It explained to my satisfaction (not that God needs me to be satisfied for Him to be real!) that Christ is the one and only path to God.

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I came online to ask a question after reading Gita, and read this thread to see if it was answered. An hour later, it's not here and I'm too tired to keep reading other threads. So, off to make a new post.
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osutuffy
Posted 2007-02-04 3:44 PM (#76338 - in reply to #28046)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


tourist - 2005-07-24 12:30 PM

Hi nath - that explanation works for those with a liberal view of religion and spirituality but does not work at all for the "hardliners." There are also some very specific theological arguements I've read by those with far more education that I have that show that for many people, doing yoga for more than physical excercise just is not in line with their beliefs. And that is ok, I think. I find it sad though, that the ultra conservatives feel they need an "alternative" practice (which looks pretty much exactly like the non-alternative as I see it ) because it separates and divides people and communities when we really need a lot less separateness and more togetherness.


Her wanting to create her alternative reminds me of Christian holidays masking pagan holidays. She is taking something she considers evil and masking it with her own version. I came across her article when I was looking for oppinions on religion and yoga. It gave me a headache. Surprised she is not out there telling Christian women to stop wearing men's clothes.
Not doing yoga because it started with another religion is like not eating french fries because they have the word french in them so they must be for french people only. Many religions have ways of worshipping that are similar to others, why does the practice of yoga have to be different? As you said about seperating and as I posted elsewhere, I think yoga is one more way to help bring us together as a people.
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Arjun
Posted 2007-02-15 9:30 PM (#77779 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


The word Hinduism is just a synonym for Yoga. The word Hinduism is not found in the "Hindu" religion or in any vedic texts. In fact there is no such thing as the Hindu religion. The word Hindu comes from the river Sindhu . The Persians or Arabs called the people who lived in India "Hindus" as in their language "S" becomes "H" for instance in Persian the Asura of Indian Vedic mythology became the Ahura of Persian mythology. So the Sindhus or river people were called Hindus, this is because their cities were almost exclusively around the great rivers Sarasvati, Indus or Ganges. It were the British who started calling the religion of these people as "Hinduism". Out of the different types of yoga i.e. Hatha Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti yoga, Karma Yoga etc. Bhakti Yoga is what most of the people in India follow. This is what the British called "Hinduism". As a matter of fact there is no religion called Hinduism, its just a British term for the various religions based on the ancient Yoga Texts and Vedas. Yoga is the religion of Hindus. “Sadhana” involving chanting of mantras and praying to a diety is part of the Bhakti Yoga system & is not a cult activity. A majority of Hindus almost 85% of Hindus follow this as their religious or yoga practice. Yoga is a religion, Hatha Yoga requires the practise of Asanas or meditative techniques and is just one aspect of the Yoga system or religion.

So anyone who's practising yoga is indeed practising Hinduism
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Bay Guy
Posted 2007-03-05 9:31 PM (#79291 - in reply to #72785)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat



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Kym - 2007-01-04 1:15 AM Bay Guy, I used to question who was right, like I think you're saying. I was on the brink of Christianity, and wanted to believe, and could feel God trying to get me, but I was fighting it. I read a book called The 23rd Paslm, and that was it. I was a believer. Then, and this is the book I recommend for you, I read The Case for Christ. It explained to my satisfaction (not that God needs me to be satisfied for Him to be real!) that Christ is the one and only path to God. I have enjoyed reading this thread. I came online to ask a question after reading Gita, and read this thread to see if it was answered. An hour later, it's not here and I'm too tired to keep reading other threads. So, off to make a new post.

Hi Kym,

Thanks for the recommendation. I have spent a good deal of thought on the general question of Christ, and while I find much good in his teachings, I find that I understand god better as a nondual concept, something within myself and everyone else, rather than some guy with a rule book.  If I think of others, as I look out for myself and my family, the rules become pretty evident without my having to worry about heavens and hells (those, I suppose, will find me without my having to plan ahead!).

If I do run across the book you mention, I will certainly look at it carefully.

Om Namah Sivaya

.. bg

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dmbones
Posted 2007-03-08 4:43 PM (#79620 - in reply to #79291)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


Greetings friends,

This is a late post for this thread, but it reminds me of a little thought experiment I did a few years ago. I went to each of the world's major religions and used their internal search engines to research their Writings on the word "breath." Guess what? They all said pretty much the same thing: what their Prophest brought to humanity was the gift of breath.

The pons/medulla, a thickening at the top of the spinal cord before it enters the brain, transmits a regular nerve signal to the respiratory center which causes us to inhale. We don't know where that nerve impulse comes from, although we know that it responds to internal conditions of the blood. You can be completely brain-dead (no cerebral cortex function), and still keep breathing as a result of this little nerve impulse form the medulla. Remember Terry Schiavo? We are being breathed, regardless of our religious beliefs.

Michael

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Bay Guy
Posted 2007-03-08 9:55 PM (#79637 - in reply to #79620)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat



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I don't know whether I'd completely agree with all the big religions, but it's certainly true that breath is ... autonomic? automatic... there is a really powerful passage on breath in the Upanishads. Perhaps I'll post it when I get a chance.

Most religions have in them some common themes about morality and survival issues -- don't kill people, don't steal, don't screw your neighbor's wife, take care of your body, etc etc.  It's all pretty basic stuff about maintaining a civil society.  Why is it in religion?  Maybe the best way to get folks to observe these basic behaviors (if they won't just do so) is to convince them that there's some big omniscient god in the background who will ruin them or send them to Hell (or both) if they don't.  Man creates religion to enforce social policy.

... bg

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dmbones
Posted 2007-03-09 12:32 AM (#79653 - in reply to #79637)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


Hi Bay,

Any relation to Buddy?

Michael
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-03-09 8:34 AM (#79674 - in reply to #79637)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


Bay Guy - 2007-03-08 9:55 PM

I don't know whether I'd completely agree with all the big religions, but it's certainly true that breath is ... autonomic? automatic... there is a really powerful passage on breath in the Upanishads. Perhaps I'll post it when I get a chance.

Most religions have in them some common themes about morality and survival issues -- don't kill people, don't steal, don't screw your neighbor's wife, take care of your body, etc etc. It's all pretty basic stuff about maintaining a civil society. Why is it in religion? Maybe the best way to get folks to observe these basic behaviors (if they won't just do so) is to convince them that there's some big omniscient god in the background who will ruin them or send them to Hell (or both) if they don't. Man creates religion to enforce social policy.

... bg



Yes Dear BG: Religaire means to bind, 'bind with values' so that the society can function smoothly. That is what the religion is all about. And, the Philosophy is another matter. In Indian Philosophy, there are two types of scriptures: called Dharamashastra (example: manusmriti) and Shastra (example: patanjali yoga sutras). The first one deals with rules to be followed by society and can be called as what is known as Hinduism today. The second one is what gives personal practice that leads to spiritual liberation, which you seem to like. Of course, there is some overlap. That means in Puranas you will find Yoga. And, in some Yoga Texts you shall find social rules. In Patanjali, there are social rules such as Ahimsa. But, they are actually not meant for society's benefit. They are meant for yogi's own benefit.

And, it is interesting to know that NONE of the Indian Scripture use the word Hindu, invented definitely by Western Historians, to compare Indians with Christianity and such.

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OptiMystic
Posted 2007-03-09 4:11 PM (#79720 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alternat


I am very late to this party. I am a member of an Episcopal church and take the Bible not as liberal truth but as the stories of my tradition. I am definitely out on the fringe but it is a more accepted fringe these days. I attend a Centering Prayer group where we do meditation in a Christian context, but we are very open about other mystic traditions. The meditations I do are primarily learned from Yoga and Zen. The most awesome spiritual experience of my life was chanting in a Zendo on a retreat; I felt the oneness more strongly than I ever had before. I don't feel like I betrayed my faith. I deepened it.

The people who try to take the Bible literally need to look a little closer. Many people point to the quote from Jesus "No one comes to the Father except through me." as proof that Christianity is the only way. But they don't look at the context. Jesus told his disciples he was going away (the ascension) and Thomas asked how they could find him. His answer really seems to be "seek the One" and there you will also find Jesus. My interpretation of that is almost the opposite of the hard liners. I think it says that seeking the One is what it is all about and not to worry about looking for the favored teacher. Also, the Bible only mentions the judgement day one time and very plainly details what the decision is based on. It says nothing about what you believe or who you prayed to. It asks "When I was hungry did you feed me? When I was sick did you comfort me?" and so on until it wraps up with the explanation "whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me."

The message is compassion and caring., not swearing fealty to a book.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-03-09 6:02 PM (#79735 - in reply to #24740)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


Dear Optymystic: I like your statements (and, perhaps You!) Yes, it is more important to know what Jesus said than to listen to a financial institute interpreting Jesus in their light.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2007-03-14 9:35 PM (#80072 - in reply to #79735)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte



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There's lots of good stuff in the Bible, if only folks would lighten up on the hard core extrapolations and ignore the more regrettable passages. 

My favorites are Corinthians I:13, The Song of Solomon, and a few of the Red Letter passages in Luke:

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

I'm fond of the Book of Job for what it has taught me about the nature of g-d, particularly through the lens of Jung's Answer to Job.

.. bg

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tourist
Posted 2007-03-15 10:39 AM (#80113 - in reply to #79735)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte



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Ah the boards are cranky again! Sometimes you have to add a post to see what is on the next page....
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OptiMystic
Posted 2007-03-16 10:59 AM (#80235 - in reply to #80113)
Subject: RE: Promoting a Christian Alte


tourist - 2007-03-15 10:39 AM
Ah the boards are cranky again! Sometimes you have to add a post to see what is on the next page....


I ran into that problem the other night. It turns out that if you switch from Flat to Threaded view of the topic, you can see the single post on the new page. Kind of a pain, but it works.

On the original topic, here is an interesting Wiki article about how the Bible was written and assembled. As I said earlier, it has the stories of my tradition and I treat it with reverence and respect. It has many great teachings about compassion and kindness toward others. But I don't take it entirely literally. There are several contradictions that make that nearly impossible. Some hard liners offer explanations about how to interpret some things differently to resolve the contradictions which undermines their whole argument of taking it literally without applying your own interpretations.

Here is an interesting tidbit from a Washington Post article:
In a look at pastoral pay, including housing, the National Association of Church Business Administration found the average annual salary to be $91,200. The low side in the survey was $13,700 a year, and the high was $249,600.
As a member of a protestant Church in the US, I have to say that money is probably the single largest thing we are openly hypocritical about. On average, we pay our pastors roughly twice the median household income in the US. We ignore the admonition on giving in open view of others and pass the plate. And what happens with the money in the plate? I will pick on my own religion, the Episcopal Church. If you read this church's page on outreach they brag that their outreach budget of 6.2% is almost double the average! We had an associate rector deliver an impassioned sermon about that one year. I noticed he had a cake pan on the pulpit and was pleasantly surprised to find out its purpose. He burned the proposed budget, talked about Jesus taking a whip to the money changers at the temple and asked us to guess how he might treat us. The budget passed and he left to head a nearby mission which went broke within a few years because he gave away every dime he could. God bless him! Anyway, I feel pretty guilty about the state of affairs of American religion. And it really annoys me when I see high paid pastors in ornate churches thumping the Bible and saying you are headed for eternal ****ation if you don't follow every rule (as interpreted by that Church;s leaders) to the letter.

Edited by OptiMystic 2007-03-16 11:00 AM
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