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| If I had just said, "eat more fruits and vegetables." I would get lots of Hallelujahs! But if I say, follow the Zone and get 40% of your daily calories from fruits and vegetables in an exact proportion to the amount of lean proteins and good fats in your diet, then I get "boo science" and "boo fad diets!"
People put up their guard as soon as they read the words "Diet" and "Zone" and "Dr." and "Book." All they see is "fad" and "low carb" and "junk science."
I haven't said, "don't be vegetarian," or "stop eating all carbs," or "your diet sucks." I'm just saying that maybe we should consider how much of everything we are eating. Everyone talks in very subjective terms and says you should eat "more" of this and "less" of that. That's good, but it could be better. How much protein and carbs and fats should you eat? Very few people have a good answer. I found a good answer to that question which appears to work so I am using that as my guide.
It's obvious from the amount of fat people in the world and on this board that there is not enough time spent figuring out how much we should be eating. People offer great advice about what to eat and what not to eat. I've offered a source for very specific guidelines on HOW MUCH to eat. If you read "Enter the Zone" by Dr. Sears you can figure out how much you should be eating everyday at every meal. You can keep guessing. I see a lot of people that eat "healthy" foods and are in horrible shape. Or you can take control of your diet and eating habits and start living and eating mindfully.
It's a path, it's a choice. No one says you have to practice yoga, but you do and you see the benefits. If we practiced some yoga eating habits we would see the benefits too. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Yogaguy,
I don't understand why you think you have to convince me that you are right! I'm not trying to compete with you and I don't totally discredit your zone diet...it's the presentation. I read your last post about altering it and how it could be adjusted...that's good. I just don't 100% believe in science. In fact, what I do believe is science and technology is going to destroy this planet one day because of the close mindedness that is associated with it. However, I have to say this, I do believe in a balance of both. We have come a long way in learning technology. My Father is a computer scientist...I respect him and what he has contributed to the cause of science. But, there have been too many mistakes and lots of suffering is happening every day because of science. When talking with someone who is so headstrong about their belief's, especially a science person, they don't want to hear a simple minded explanation..which is what I find to be rather insulting to my intelligence. If you speak with a Traditional Oriental Doctor, they have their belief's but they are so open minded to *science* and actually use some of it. To me, that is a very intelligent person. I am also from the belief that we would be in a perfect world if we balanced nature and science/technology. I like technology and I love nature and depend on it. Unfortunately, there are too many idiots in the world that only see one way - their way which is limited and not open to nature which has existed forever on this earth. As for your zone diet, I'm sure it is very good...but like everything, its not always going to be good for everybody and don't try to rob me of my knowledge of what I know to be true as well...I'm not stupid and I've had some really good results with my simple mind and my simple natural intelligence. So, please no hard feelings, I respect you...give a little too, okay? Have a blessed day!
Namaste`
Cyndi
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-18 12:30 PM
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| I'm not for or against western science, generally speaking. Western science and I can peacefully coexist, as long as we don't have to cross paths any more often than necessary. All those facts and stuff . . . what's a girl to do?
I just don't have the attention span or math skills to stick to any particular program, no matter how easy or effective it may be. I'm just not hard-wired to calculate percentages of anything, I know myself and that detracts from my general enjoyment of life. I eat what I like and I like what I eat, and I never feel guilty about any of it. I hope that's true of everyone - if you enjoy your food and feel good, then God love ya. Who cares if you're on The Zone or Weight Watchers or Atkins or Cabbage Soup or the Ghirardelli Chocolate Only diet.
Except when it comes to parties, then if everyone could just pack a lunch that would be great. At Christmas I had to plan a meal at my mom's house for the whole family. My aunt & uncle are on South Beach, my mom and grandpa can't have sodium, cousin is allergic to mushrooms, and my mom announced that the central themes of the meal must include turkey and shrimp. Also that it must be "Christmassy." I decided another central theme would be "lots of wine." |
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| JeansYoga - I love your attitude and outlook on life! I bet you're a fun girl to hang with  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Oh Jean, I hear you on that one. What happened to the simple life??? I hope and pray that people in the world can get back to nature, relax and enjoy life...it doesn't have to be this complicated. If you really want a taste of YOGA...MEDITATION...come to my house in the mountains...you would go crazy with boredom - the earth is so silent here. Me, I totally love it and could stay at my house for weeks and never crank my car!!! I dread my trip to the city today because when I get there it will be so nice and fun at first...I'll stay there for a while and notice all the frenzied people who can't keep up with themselves and their dramas...counting their food calories in the grocery store as they are being impatient with their children - all in the name of science/technology. Then, I'll hurry up and get back home out of the rat race -back to peace, back to nature!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-18 12:57 PM
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| Yoga Guy, I've read some of the Zone books and I took away from it what worked for me. There was way too much planning for me, and I do plan out my meals as it is! I agree that about not eating too much carbs and too much fat though. I think that it is a good educational tool to read Dr Sears books, but you have to modify the diet to fit your own lifestyle....even if it means not following it exactly.
P.S. My husband and I love the Zone Bars, they are yummy!
Edited by Gracie 2005-03-18 12:40 PM
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| Like Neel said in another post - I must be casual, for I am the Jean of Yoga! 
Cyndi, your home sounds like paradise! I am sure I'd love it!
I do think of all the "diets with names", The Zone and Weight Watchers seem to be quite logical and sound, in a world full of really scary sounding diets. I have friends who enjoy them very much and find them to be effective and healthy, which is great! I just can't follow them, I gotta be me. A lot of my friends are totally crazy for Curves, and I'm not going there either even though I think they've got a good concept. I'm just bitter because they don't want any yoga classes! 
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-18 12:27 PM
Yogaguy,
I don't understand why you think you have to convince me that you are right! I'm not trying to compete with you and I don't totally discredit your zone diet...it's the presentation. I read your last post about altering it and how it could be adjusted...that's good. I just don't 100% believe in science. In fact, what I do believe is science and technology is going to destroy this planet one day because of the close mindedness that is associated with it. However, I have to say this, I do believe in a balance of both. We have come a long way in learning technology. My Father is a computer scientist...I respect him and what he has contributed to the cause of science. But, there have been too many mistakes and lots of suffering is happening every day because of science. When talking with someone who is so headstrong about their belief's, especially a science person, they don't want to hear a simple minded explanation..which is what I find to be rather insulting to my intelligence. If you speak with a Traditional Oriental Doctor, they have their belief's but they are so open minded to *science* and actually use some of it. To me, that is a very intelligent person. I am also from the belief that we would be in a perfect world if we balanced nature and science/technology. I like technology and I love nature and depend on it. Unfortunately, there are too many idiots in the world that only see one way - their way which is limited and not open to nature which has existed forever on this earth. As for your zone diet, I'm sure it is very good...but like everything, its not always going to be good for everybody and don't try to rob me of my knowledge of what I know to be true as well...I'm not stupid and I've had some really good results with my simple mind and my simple natural intelligence. So, please no hard feelings, I respect you...give a little too, okay? Have a blessed day!
Namaste`
Cyndi
Cyndi
First, I'm a lawyer, so I'm sorry if I sound confrontational and adversarial. I'm trying to debate. You're entitled to and justified in all your beliefs. I'm just saying, don't be quick to condemn something you don't know about. For example, lumping the Zone in the low carb diet group. Not your fault cuz the media does this constantly. Also you said, 30% sounds like not enough protein. If you have never really measured your daily protein, carb & fat intake with a scale, you'd be surprised how much 40/30/30 is. You get a lot of protein. If you were to try eating a simple Zone meal of 4 egg whites, 2 apples and 12 almonds, you would feel surprisingly full and have plenty of protein. (That's a really flavorless example--you can try a tastier meal if you want).
Second, I am not a total science guy. I am also a yoga teacher and martial arts instructor. I am NOT a fan of western medicine for the most part. I am fan of those things that work and are good for you. I take from column A and from Column B. The "I just do what feels good/right" diet doesn't work for most people. Sometimes people need a little help and guidance. I offered a guideline, a real plan with real numbers to follow. Telling people to listen to their bodies doesn't work when their bodies tell them to eat cake and pizza and drink soda. I'm just here to help. You don't have to follow it.
Third, science is going to destroy the world rant is great. But doesn't help solve the problem of how much to eat. I agree mindless behavior will destroy the world, but don't know if it necessarily is a function of science and technology. Furthermore, where do you draw the line? Obviously, not at using the internet.  Will you go back to some of the first scientists: the neolithic farmers. When hunters and gatherers were roaming the earth, the "smart" science types started farming and using "technology" to grow grains. Cordain's work points to that technological "breakthrough" as to the start of our decline into disease. So I am not disputing you, just taking it a step further.
Finally, I am not trying to rob you of what you know. I am trying to clarify what you know and what I know. How many carbs are too many? How much protein is too much? Do you KNOW. Do you think you know? Are you guessing? I don't KNOW. But I have a guideline to follow. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. So far I like it and it works. Will I tweek it. Maybe, but I have to give it a fair shot first before I dismiss it or tweek it. After a couple months maybe I will reevaluate my position. But for now I have a plan. I'm offering it up for inspection and debate.
You have your plan and I have mine. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I don't know Jean, I think one day Curves will change their mind and offer Yoga. Crunch has Yoga in their clubs. My husband says the Yoga instructors there are a joke!! So who knows, the trend is catching on..even up here in the mountains they like Yoga!! Its funny if you say Buddhist here they look at you strange...but if you say Yoga, they say Oh yea!
Yoga guy, I don't mind the debate...they do this all the time in Tibet. You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks. Fortunately, my Tibetan is not all that great..I would say constantly Cheze, which means what did you say?? They would have to stop their debating and explain it to me. Debating is healthy, just as long as it is debating and nothing else. I won't take it personally...you don't either okay! Have fun in Costa Rica...I wish I were going too!! Take care,
Cyndi |
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| Gracie - 2005-03-18 12:38 PM
Yoga Guy, I've read some of the Zone books and I took away from it what worked for me. There was way too much planning for me, and I do plan out my meals as it is! I agree that about not eating too much carbs and too much fat though. I think that it is a good educational tool to read Dr Sears books, but you have to modify the diet to fit your own lifestyle....even if it means not following it exactly.
P.S. My husband and I love the Zone Bars, they are yummy!
The sad part about the Zone is that it is a TOTAL PAIN IN THE A$$ to follow. It is very much like doing the hardest yoga practice of your life 5 times a day. It requires attention to detail and being meticulous in how you measure your foods. Just like focusing on your alignment, bandhas, breathing and drishti. Since I work 12 or more hours a day and eat almost all my meals out, I find it especially hard to stick with it. But it is worth the effort and one Zone meal is better than none. Just like practicing yoga, it's better to practice a little every day than a lot all at once. So even if I stay in the zone during the day and slip at dinner, I feel way better than if I ate like cr@p all day. If If I manage to go 2 or 3 days in the Zone, I'm flying high.
From my experience the quality of the results in dieting and in yoga are equal to the quality of the effort. If you are not exact in your poses and breathing you do not get the same benefits. If you are not exact in your measuring and eating you do not get the same results.
Jean: if you were to apply your devil may care eating habits to your yoga practice, you probably wouldn't be as good a yogi. If your students turned to you when you told them about proper alignment and said, "well I don't feel like it and I feel better like this" you would probably have a talk with them about the benefits of proper alignment and form.
Yet we (cuz I'm guilt of this too) feel that taking the effort to align our diet is somehow less important. Whether it is aligning it to ayurveda or the zone. Why is that? Shouldn't we as yogis and yoga teachers be as exact in our diet as in our practice? We react so strongly when we see people kicking up into headstands or turning their knees in funny ways and even cringe when we think about smoking. However if we see a sugar filled cake or a loaf of bread we'll gladly devour it.
I think it is because food, more than anything else is tied to our hormones and our emotions-- much more than yoga and chakras and any other physical practice. I think the more we understand that the more we can use that to our advantage to control our emotions and become more calm. The more mindful we become of our emotions. Isn't that what walking the path is about? Don't we all owe it to ourselves to try to be more exact and more in control of how we eat and what we eat and how much we eat?
Is the practice of yoga just about being more flexible or is it something more? |
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| Here is an excerpt from "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" by Daniel P. Reid. He's a westerner who's been living in Taiwan for a couple of decades studying from Taoist masters.
"Grains have been the mainstay of the human diet for only 6,000 or 7,000 years, and thus the Taoist sages of ancient China recognized them as relative newcomers to the human diet with deleterious effects on human health and longevity. Throughout the ancient Taoist literature on health and longevity we find the term bi-gu (avoid grains) cropping up over and over....the fact that for the past several thousand years the traditional Chinese diet has consisted of 80-90% grains simply reflects the requirements of over-population. Taoists who avoid grains live much healthier and longer lives than the general populace..." |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-18 1:47 PM
I don't know Jean, I think one day Curves will change their mind and offer Yoga. Crunch has Yoga in their clubs. My husband says the Yoga instructors there are a joke!! So who knows, the trend is catching on..even up here in the mountains they like Yoga!! Its funny if you say Buddhist here they look at you strange...but if you say Yoga, they say Oh yea!
Yoga guy, I don't mind the debate...they do this all the time in Tibet. You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks. Fortunately, my Tibetan is not all that great..I would say constantly Cheze, which means what did you say?? They would have to stop their debating and explain it to me. Debating is healthy, just as long as it is debating and nothing else. I won't take it personally...you don't either okay! Have fun in Costa Rica...I wish I were going too!! Take care,
Cyndi
Well I teach yoga at Crunch so I don't know how I should take that. I guess your hubby is going to have to come to my class one night and then we can go out for rice & dal afterwards.
PS - Crunch has had yoga in their clubs since they started which predates Curves by several years.
PPS - Curves sucks.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-03-18 2:14 PM
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| YogaGuy: Not really looking for diet advice, but thanks for the scolding. Just because I don't weigh and calculate the micronutrient percentage of everything I put in my mouth doesn't mean that I'm shoveling Spam and Wonder Bread sandwiches in my mouth all day. I do actually LIKE vegetables, you know!
And I don't get too strict with my students either - I don't let them hurt themselves, but everyone's body is different so no, I don't force them into alignments that aren't comfortable for them yet. That scares away a lot of beginners. I'm sure you'll find something dreadfully wrong with that too, so I'll hold out my hand now for you to slap. |
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| Cyndi wrote:
"You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks."
OMG! I'm pretty sure if that happened to me, only one person would be left alive at the end of that trip....posssibly not though--I might have to use the last of the 6 bullets on myself.
Kind of a Non sequitor--in Alaska, when cityslickers come up to bear hunt, the Alaskan gun shops have signs that read: "Bear Hunters: Gun sights filed off for free." When the new folks ask, why, the response is, "So it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves the barrel up your a$$." |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-03-18 3:52 PM
YogaGuy: Not really looking for diet advice, but thanks for the scolding. Just because I don't weigh and calculate the micronutrient percentage of everything I put in my mouth doesn't mean that I'm shoveling Spam and Wonder Bread sandwiches in my mouth all day. I do actually LIKE vegetables, you know!
And I don't get too strict with my students either - I don't let them hurt themselves, but everyone's body is different so no, I don't force them into alignments that aren't comfortable for them yet. That scares away a lot of beginners. I'm sure you'll find something dreadfully wrong with that too, so I'll hold out my hand now for you to slap.
Not trying to scold, Jean. Just food for thought. You go ahead with your casual self! Despite my ranting, I am really not that an@l. Although I try to be mindful. I don't force my students to do anything. But I do make lots of suggestions.
I think alignment and form are important. I think breathing and bandhas are important. I think mindfulness is important. Teaching for me is a balance of toughness and compassion. Moving deeper into the practice is about finding your edge and your limits. I think my job is very much about helping people find that edge in their practice. Not by force, but through discipline and compassion. I don't think I'm the only teacher to think this way. I could swear that Erich Schiffman talks about it too.
It's easy to let yourself and your students get away with stuff, but easy is not what it's all about. We all do it. But that doesn't make it right. That is not the Practice. The Practice is doing the impossible, the boring, the difficult stuff every day and transforming it into the easy stuff. That is where we develop and get stronger, better, more enlightened. The first few times you tell people to press their palms together overhead they balk and cheat and get tired after 2 breaths. However, through practice, their palms meet gracefully, the elbows straighten and the shoulders relax away from the ears and they hold the position through many deep ujjayi breaths. Things get learned and re-learned constantly in yoga. It's all about continued practice and attention to the details: bandhas, breath, alignment.
I don't make my students do anything, but I ask them to try and be mindful and practice patiently and expect that through practice the difficult will become easy and the impossible will become difficult.
Apparently, Cyndi and her husband think that this makes me a joke. So to each their own.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-03-18 5:10 PM
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| YogaGuy - 2005-03-19 4:05 AM
Here is an excerpt from "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" by Daniel P. Reid. He's a westerner who's been living in Taiwan for a couple of decades studying from Taoist masters.
"Grains have been the mainstay of the human diet for only 6,000 or 7,000 years, and thus the Taoist sages of ancient China recognized them as relative newcomers to the human diet with deleterious effects on human health and longevity. Throughout the ancient Taoist literature on health and longevity we find the term bi-gu (avoid grains) cropping up over and over....the fact that for the past several thousand years the traditional Chinese diet has consisted of 80-90% grains simply reflects the requirements of over-population. Taoists who avoid grains live much healthier and longer lives than the general populace..."
keith! i am reading this book right now - i love it.
if you forget the label "the zone" and just eat 40/30/30 you will see that it does work.
for anyone who wants to take the guess work out of their daily intake - try this:
http://www.fitday.com/
i have found it really helps me to eat enough calories, tells me when i am lacking nutrients and gives me the option of customizing foods that i eat that may not be on standard lists (this is important for me since i dont live in north america). i am eating a lot better (for me, that means eating enough protein and enough calories) since i started using it.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Sorry Keith,
I didn't know you worked for Crunch....otherwise, I would of held that tidbit back. I was referring to another location, not yours..I am sure you are a fine Yoga Instructor:~)
Bruce, about the monks and my roadtrip....it was the funnest trip I ever had for me and my daughter. When you are around Tibetans and they debate, they don't get upset and fight with each other by hurling insults, they mutually respect each other's opinion and then they drink chai together afterwards like brothers. It's an incredible experience of watching them peacefully demonstrate and its a lost art.
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| wow, thank you easternsun! great site. |
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| That is a neat site Easternsun! I've been looking for something like that. I used to belong to ishape.com, but it costs too much and I wasn't using enough of the features (they pre-plan your menus, so you have to delete them every day and enter your own food). It is always interesting to see how everything measures up! Does it have an "antagonizing" feature if you're not in the Zone, like this website seems to have?
I don't know how Crunch works, because we don't have one out here in Michigan. We have more Curves than we have stop signs though! Curves is a franchise, so some of the owners are more laid-back than others - some of them have yoga classes and let you bring your dog and everything. Others are real strict about following the Curves plan and that's all, with no variation. Our local Curves takes their business more seriously than NASA, so yoga teachers are NOT welcome! And yes, that does suck!  |
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| I have to put in my two cents in this thread. I've been a vegetarian for five years. I've eaten vegan for more than a year at a time although I don't like to label myself that way anymore.
I have a friend who is a nutritionist for olympic athletes and she can't stand any of the high protein low-carb diets. She says that they will kill you in the long run as they are really hard on the kidneys.
I am a journalist and I have a friend (another journalist) who wrote an article on the high-protein fad. She has a friend who has been on the high-protein diet for a couple of years. Yes, she has lost a lot of weight but she is also weak and sick all the time. She won't go off it now because her self-esteem is higher as a thin woman than as a healthy one. Such is society today.
Eating complementary proteins is an excellent way to go and most vegans get more than enough protein without ever thinking about. Real concerns being a vegan are more along the lines of B12, Iron and Calcium.
If you eat two pieces of grainy toast with a nut butter (peanut, cashew...) you are getting more than enough of all your different amino acids. And recent studies suggest that you don't need to get all of your amino acids in one meal but throughout the day.
Eating whole grains like brown rice are extremely good for the body. Not only that but they are filling and you are bond to eat less as you won't feel hungry as quickly.
This is a great article on vegan nutrition. http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html
I hope that helps. |
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Sources of protein for vegans
