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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
Thanks for the information on Salem & apostasy. While I really had not thought
of this aspect of that history, it seems certain that no Protestant group today would
be willing to sanction whatever doctrines led to witch hunting --- suggesting that today's
reading would always assert apostasy on some level? Anyway, it seems very clear that
they had not followed literally Christ's statements in the Book of John!! ........ 8:7
But this is really quite interesting and leads to more questions. Are all the acts of
violence conducted in the name of religion (christian religion, in this case) necessarily
connected to a misapplication of religious doctrine? Were all Protestant witch hunts
associated with apostasy?
And more, but I have to get to work!
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| >>...Christ alone is my path.<<
Jeri, I'm not certain how to explain this, but I admire your convictions and your expression thereof, while you take what you want in yoga in this case, and leave the rest. (That Al-Anon aphromism covers so much! ) As I've opined previously, I find something wonderful about people who have such confidence. I read something in a book explaining and discussing Wicca that has always stuck with me. It said that a true Wicca doesn't believe, s/he knows. I think the same could be said of any faith and it is beautiful to see.
A question.
Since the purpose of asana is (this might come as a surprise to many) not stretching, but rather stilling the body and mind in preparation for meditation, which in turn is to bring us closer to the Divine, how does this aspect of asana not fit into the spiritual aspect of your life?
Not excluding, of course, the fact that it already fits into the health maintenance aspect of your life.
Just curious. For those who jump (all over me) to conclusions about what I mean (rather than asking), this is just a question, not a judgement.
Christine |
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| My comments:
Yoga has been and continues to be a wonderful way to find relief from my curvy spine. But that's all it is to me. If adherents of a spiritual path in yoga tell me that I need to participate in the spiritual side of it, I just say , "No I don't. Christ alone is my sufficiency" And if Pat Robertson tells me I'm in sin for doing yoga, I'd just say, "No I'm not. Christ alone is my sufficiency." Same answer for either side of the question, because it's just exercise to me.
Jeri
===> No adherents of spiritual path in Yoga are telling you that you need to do anything. (My statement is : You can never avoid Yoga if you are on a spiritual path.) In the same way, NO adherents of Christianity should tell others that others should seek Christ, which they Do. And, that is the exact problem.
===> Now, what you call use of Yoga for curvy spine or for exercise is called HathaYoga and this is not a question of belief or interpretation, that is exactly how it is stated in multipler resources, similar to the Bible for Christtianity you quoted. There are other parts in Yoga Called as Rajayoga, whichh is the science of meditation, etc. So, for example, you can not use (except in another context, which I am not going to expound on just now) Rajayoga for your curvy spine. In the same way, the belief in Christ is NOT giving some of the Yogis which they are looking for. This must be accepted using your own logic system.
===> Now, with no offese to you, and with all reverence to the Yogi Christ (in my definition), your statements that Yoga is only an exercise and nothing else for you is like saying 'I use Bible only as my pillow while sleeping, and that is all that is in Bible for me. Because, I use it only that way.".
Respected Yoga Dacner's question related to Asana: See above post.
===> The Asana in Hathayoga is NOT same as in Rajayoga. In Rajayoga it means a steady and comfortable pose to be used for Meditation. In Hathayoga it means the various Yoga Poses which are meant for Body-Mind training, which are mostly related to health and somewhat getting a hold of mind.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| I must say that it is refreshing to see such an apparently civil and knowledgable discussion of religion. I say apparently because I have so little knowledge myself, I honestly don't follow it all, but it sounds like you folks know what you are talking about
It seems to me that a lot of problems with religion occur, like the Salem witch hunts as an extreme example, because of individuals not having a full understanding of their own religion. Especially those raised in "church-going" but not deeply religious homes seem to accept a very narrow and rote set of rules rather than a deeper understanding of the philosophical basis of those rules and how to apply them to their own thinking and beliefs. A funny example - when my kids were little, we were driving somewhere and I had a coffee or juice or something that I was drinking. One of them told me very solemnly that I was not supposed to drink and drive There are seemingly a lot of otherwise intelligent adults in the world who apply the teachings of their churches in an equally childlike manner. I work with two people who are both strong Catholics. One said that she absolutely couldn't do something of other with her wedding ring because it was "blessed in church by the priest." The other one, who understands her religion better just scoffed and said "no problem - I could bless your ring. Anybody could bless your ring and it would be just as valid as the priest doing it." The look of shock on the first person's face was really something!
Similarly, the whole right to life thing that is going on right now causes discussion about what is really Catholic and what isn't. My knowledgable co-worker says that Catholics as a group, would not believe in prolonging life the way it is being done in the famous case. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Pope.
Sorry to veer off the topic. I just want to say again how well this is being handled. Good to be able to discuss and learn without craziness. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| >>You can never avoid Yoga if you are on a spiritual path<<
Neel, would you also be able to say that all yogis practice Christianity because the yamas and niyamas instruct us to behave in ways that are similar to the teachings of Christ? |
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| To All- Yes, Christians can practice yoga and we all agree on that. When I taught yoga in West Texas, I was called a New Ager, etc. for practicing yoga (really narrow-minded people live in my hometown). I always told my class to keep their mind open to new ideas relating to yoga, nothing to do with religion. That is up to them. I had Buddists, Christians and Muslims in my class. If anyone had a problem with the sign of OM, they did not have to participate or I would remind them that the hospital up the street that owned this Health Club has a beautiful chapel with a stained glass window that has the symbol OM engraved on it!
If you are comfortable with your faith as I am with mine, I respect others faiths and learn from them. I have visited Buddist Temples in Hong Kong, Muslim Mosques in Egypt and Catholic churches in Europe etc. and have become more open minded and respectful of others faiths. I am a Protestant and have listened to the Southern Baptists slam the Catholics, etc. , so I am a non Denominational, Christian.
I see patients from all over here in SAT that enlighten me about their customs, etc. How cool! I feel so fortunate that I can clean their teeth and talk to them at the same time. We all should be open minded and learn from one another when it comes to religion and philosphy.
Namaste2  |
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| I want to be really careful here - these are precisely the things that fundamentalists love to fly off the handle over, believe me! Some clarification is needed: Ps 46:10 -
"Be still, and know that I am God! (emphsis added) I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth."
Mt 6:22, 23 -"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! A popular commentary reads: The light--the lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single--simple, clear. As applied to the outward eye, this means general soundness; particularly, not looking two ways. Here, as also in classical Greek, it is used figuratively to denote the simplicity of the mind's eye, singleness of purpose, looking right at its object, as opposed to having two ends in view. Can Christians Practice Yoga? Sure, why not! (Hatha) Yoga has done for me what I would never find in Christianity. I think we're all (including, perhaps most of all Pat Robertson and all his ilk) kind of missing the whole point. Before I make too much of a fool of myself or go off on some tangent, I'll offer this thought:
"If our God is so fragile that He or She is threatened by new names then we ought to look at that." In fact, to him, true idolatry (worship of a God other than that of your religion) has nothing to do with labels: "How much idolatry are we committing in terms of money or power or fame or cars or big homes or stock or family? I think it's a very narrow thing to define idolatry just in terms of alternative names for divinity. The fact is that the real idols that we fall into—not just as individuals, but as a culture—are the things that are really killing our soul." |
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| jeriwho - 2005-03-30 5:06 AM
kulkarnn - 2005-03-29 9:51 AM
1. Yes, Christians can practice Yoga. Because Jesus Christ himself did so, and that is NOT metaphorically, he actually practiced Yoga, with that particular word in it.
No He didn't, not according to the Bible anyway.
***When you say not according to the bible, do you mean there is no mention of him practicing? Or does it distinctly point out that he did not practice yoga? Again, whatever the source, it was in fact written by man, therefore fallible.
2. Yes, Christians are practicing yoga, for example, many bulletin board members are christians and practicing yoga for long time. Can one particular Christian say that the others are NOT christians for that matter?
Of course we can. I certainly do. I just use it as a form of exercise. But my faith and confidence are in Christ and Christ alone.
3. And, even those who are not actually doing any Yoga Practice, but are participating on this bulletin board are practicing Yoga. Because, this is a Yoga based Bulletin Board. And, they are interested in knowing Yoga Related things. So, they are practicing Yoga.
Well, then it's how you would define "practicing yoga". Reading a bulletin board is NOT something I would include in the practice of yoga, but it's pretty clear that I live under a very Western, almost Aristotelian view of reality (viewing the quality of reality as made up of hard and fast distinctions ). I actually believe that doing one thing is not the same thing at all as doing something else.
***Yoga is not simply asana practice, or we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. My understanding is that any action seeking to expand the mind outside of the current realm of experience in an effort to form a connection with the divine (whatever/whoever that may be ) is yoga. So that is what we're doing here on the board.
Yoga is a base of human life, and there is no way to avoid it. Anybody, practicing any good thing, is practicing Yoga. In terms of timeframe all well known religions are but recent entities.
Hmm, well, that gets back to such a broad defintion that you make your term mean every possible thing. But if you want to define yoga that way, that's cool---for you.
**See my response to the above statement. |
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| tourist - 2005-03-30 9:55 AM
It seems to me that a lot of problems with religion occur, like the Salem witch hunts as an extreme example, because of individuals not having a full understanding of their own religion.
Extremely observant! My way of saying it is that when faith relies on the feelings of the current moment as its authority rather than doctrine for its authority, then it becomes fanatical and dangerous.
But you said it better!
Jeri |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-03-30 7:23 AM
Were all Protestant witch hunts associated with apostasy?
I don't know of any other Protestant witch hunts, not for literal witches. But if you will let me draw an analogy to modern times: when a bunch of alleged "Christians" blow up an abortion clinic or lynch some poor young man for homosexuality, yes, that is the result of apostasy from the doctrines of Christianity. Such behavior is a clear departure from the doctrines of the sovereignty of God taught in the Bible and from the knowledge of Christ and His commands not to live by the sword. It's written in the book of James: "The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." The Book of Romans devotes a couple passages to being in subjection to civil law. Christ Himself said that we must render to Caeser that which is his, and showed by the image of Caeser on the coin that Caeser had a right to coin money and therefore had a right to collect it. So we are not to be vigilantes, and our respect of civil authority reflects our understanding that God is in ultimate control. So when people who profess to be Christians willfully and with premeditation carry out vigilante actions, they demonstrate a rejection of some very basic and very clear doctrinal knowledge.
Hope that helps!
Jeri |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-03-30 8:57 AM
Now, with no offese to you, and with all reverence to the Yogi Christ (in my definition), your statements that Yoga is only an exercise and nothing else for you is like saying 'I use Bible only as my pillow while sleeping, and that is all that is in Bible for me. Because, I use it only that way.".
Thank you kulkarnn, and I am not offended. In fact, I would agree with you. If you use the Bible only as a pillow then it would be ridiculous for me to think it has had any other influence on you than a pillow would have. To you, it is just a pillow.
Jeri |
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| ajlewis - 2005-03-30 10:42 AM
"If our God is so fragile that He or She is threatened by new names then we ought to look at that." In fact, to him, true idolatry (worship of a God other than that of your religion) has nothing to do with labels: "How much idolatry are we committing in terms of money or power or fame or cars or big homes or stock or family? I think it's a very narrow thing to define idolatry just in terms of alternative names for divinity. The fact is that the real idols that we fall into—not just as individuals, but as a culture—are the things that are really killing our soul."
I think we are trying to define terms and examine what has actually been written in which Scriptures and what has not been written in those Scriptures. I really doubt that the documents of *any* religion are shaken by an in-depth discussion of how different people define theological terms and how they view history.
I think we are all agreeing that we have very different views, and we're describing them and asking questions and explaining them.
Jeri |
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| A man walked into the Women's Department of Macy's in New York City. He told the sales lady, "I would like a Baptist bra for my wife, size 36B". With a quizzical look, the saleslady asked, "What kind of bra?" He repeated, "A Baptist bra. She said to tell you that she wanted a Baptist bra and that you would know what she wanted. "Ah, now I remember," said the sales lady, "we don't get as many requests for Them as we used to. Mostly our customers lately want the Catholic bra or the Salvation Army bra, or the Presbyterian type". Confused and a little flustered, the man asked, "So what are the differences?" The lady responded, "Well, it's really quite simple. The Catholic type supports the masses, the Salvation Army lifts up the fallen, the Presbyterian type keeps them staunch and upright." He mused at that for a moment and then asked, "So, what is the Baptist type for?" "They", she replied, "make mountains out of molehills". |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Ho!!!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | jeriwho - 2005-03-30 12:49 PM
Bay Guy - 2005-03-30 7:23 AM
Were all Protestant witch hunts associated with apostasy?
I don't know of any other Protestant witch hunts, not for literal witches. But if you will let me draw an analogy to modern times: when a bunch of alleged "Christians" blow up an abortion clinic or lynch some poor young man for homosexuality, yes, that is the result of apostasy from the doctrines of Christianity. Such behavior is a clear departure from the doctrines of the sovereignty of God taught in the Bible and from the knowledge of Christ and His commands not to live by the sword. It's written in the book of James: "The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." The Book of Romans devotes a couple passages to being in subjection to civil law. Christ Himself said that we must render to Caeser that which is his, and showed by the image of Caeser on the coin that Caeser had a right to coin money and therefore had a right to collect it. So we are not to be vigilantes, and our respect of civil authority reflects our understanding that God is in ultimate control. So when people who profess to be Christians willfully and with premeditation carry out vigilante actions, they demonstrate a rejection of some very basic and very clear doctrinal knowledge.
Hope that helps!
Jeri
Okay, here a site that lists about 800 people executed for witchcraft. The dates and
locations show many to be in post-reformation Germany and England (etc) so presumably
quite a few were done under protestant authority. I don't have details, of course, and
it's very likely that some of these used the bible or the church only as a prop in
settling personal accounts of one form or another.
http://www.illusions.com/burning/
There's lots more that's been written on this topic, especially from a feminist point of view.
Maybe this also raises the $64 dollar question: Is the death penalty either moral or
sanctionable under religious authority. My own reading of the Bhagavad Gita and
the Yoga Sutras is that neither would ever allow such "legal" action. My personal
interpretation of the New Testament is similar. The Old Testament,
in constrast, seems pretty comfortable with that kind of thing.
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| Well, one problem I see right off is that the documentation includes charges to which "witchcraft" has been affixed, like a stamp of approval. Anne Bolyn was charged with adultery as the first charge, and then witchcraft was added to certify that she would die (May 19, 1536). The practice of affixing the charge of witchcraft to a person to make sure they would be condemned when the real charge was something else was not unknown.
Anne Askew also appears on the list. You'll find her written in FOXE'S BOOK OF MARTYRS as an outstanding Christian woman who actually argued Sir Thomas Moore to a standstill on Christian doctrine. He was so furious with her that he wracked her with his hands, himself, and stood right at the pyre when she was burned. Nobody really thought she practiced witchcraft. The charge was added as an insult to her and a certification that she was worthy of death---an added charge to make her seem all the more wicked to onlookers.
Anybody who ran afoul of the established church (the papacy or Henry's version of the CHurch of England) during Henry's reign or during the reign of James and Charles and then Bonny Prince Charles on doctrinal grounds (and remember, Charles II killed hundreds of people for "covenantism") could have the appendix of "witchcraft" applied to their charges. But the real charge was refusal to submit to the state church, which was the church that made the King of England the religous authority for the realm.
I can't answer for the German side of the question. DUring Martin Luther's lifetime and aftrerward, Germany still had a lot of very powerful princes and barons of different faiths. But the list from England looks pretty bogus to me.
I'm sure there WERE women put to death explicitly for witchcraft, but there were no witch hunts, not like what you saw in Salem. Hunting out religious dissenters was the prime quest of the courts during the reigns of Henry VIII, his daughter Mary, and then James I, Charles I, and Charles II and James II. These were men/women who were trying to ram the English people back to some form of the papacy (although usually under the headship of the British king, not the pope).
To affront the king's authority in religious matters brought with it charges of heresy; and then "witchcraft" was affixed to the charges.
The Puritan Interegnum saw about 2 dozen women condemned for witchcraft all told, which is bad, but is certainly a drop from the papist and Anglican kings. The Puritans were still coming out of a culture that viewed witchcraft as a real threat, and I would say it's to the credit of strict Puritan law and its demand for evidence that the mortality rate dropped so sharply.
Jeri |
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| YogaDancer - 2005-03-30 7:57 AM
Since the purpose of asana is (this might come as a surprise to many) not stretching, but rather stilling the body and mind in preparation for meditation, which in turn is to bring us closer to the Divine, how does this aspect of asana not fit into the spiritual aspect of your life?
Not excluding, of course, the fact that it already fits into the health maintenance aspect of your life.
Thank you for your kind words. When you say asana, do you mean savasana? We actually have something similar to savasana in martial arts. The Japanese called it mok-suk, although it is not done in the prone position but rather seated on the knees, Japanese style. We martial artists believe that instant action snaps from knowledge, not tension, and so the quieting of the mind is essential to our practice, and at the end of class we perform the mok-suk to still ourselves and return to a steady state of mind.
You're the first person, even in yoga, to equate this with union to the Divine or preparation for meditation to me. I have always viewed savasana/mok-suk as returning to the steady state of awareness and receptivity that is essential for awareness of life around me.
Because I believe that Christ has brought me into union with Him, I've never expected any posture or position or mindset will give me that which I already have: intimate union with my God and the consolation of His presence. He's done that on my behalf.
If by asana you mean all the postures, no I never knew that either. I just do them as stretches. After class, I'm not at all inclined to meditate. I go home and either kick for a few minutes or go straight to a hot shower and then dinner and an episode of the Simpsons. I'm not trying to be disrespectful for people who meditate. But I've never felt an inclination to meditate or even be still after yoga.
Remember, I come from martial arts with a lot of jumping, kicking, and yelling. Sometimes yoga is so quieting that after class I want to make some noise, laugh out loud, or just be more active.
Jeri |
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| First, when you mention the witch hunts and Anne Askew, keep in mind that this is also a perfect example of the gender repression women have lived with throughout history. If you've never read Jung's coffee table book Witches you might pick it up. It's a psychological study on the "power" women have over men, particularly in sexual areas. Greatly simplified, the lure or arousal men felt God-knows-when ago was unexplainable, therefore frightening, therefore it must be magic. Similar to the fright and mystery menstruation caused.
Anyway, consider how "inappropriate" it was for women to have a brain, let alone use it and out-lecture a man. Consider that other male appendage, the Ego. No wonder he used his own civil (calling it secular) authority to dominate and reclaim his power. She might have well have Bobbit-ed him.
So this is yet another issue within the very male dominated church to consider.
Jeri, as far as asana, it loosely means "good seat." It's come to mean posture as related to yoga stretching. As you continue practicing yoga, you'll probably come across someone who knows the original purpose of this stretching, or asana, which is as I stated.
In my book, whatever reason someone does yoga is a good enough reason. I note that after your practice, you might not sit and meditate, but you do things that soothe and quiet before heading out (perhaps in celebration of good company) to dine. Even kicking is a focused activity!
Have you ever considered sitting for the meditation and simply using those moments to pray? Perhaps in gratitude, as you've stated, for your Savior bringing yoga into your good life? See, we don't have to do things the way someone else wants us to. That embodies that evil word "should" the use of which should cause one to be burned at the stake. Ok, maybe just poked with a sharp stick. Anyway, yoga is your practice, just as Christianity is your faith. Take those precious few quiet minutes and put them together?
I offer this simply because I couldn't sit still if you paid me. Both Svanasana and mediation are so difficult for me that I'd rather clean toilets. My own practice is Ashtanga, which is also jumping, moving, breathing, and stretching. I really try to sit a bit and at least clear my monkey mind, if not consider the blessings in my own life. Anyway, I don't think it could do anything but enhance anyone's moment with their version of the Divine.
Just thoughts.
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| Backing up again-
In yoga, devotion is an important aspect of the overall set of practices. One may hold as one's object of worship and devotion the "face of God" to which one feels attracted, with which there is identification. Therefore if one wishes to project devotion toward Jesus, then that is perfectly appropriate.
Christianity has it's own meditation and ascetic traditions [would LOVE to hear about these if anyone knows?]. However, one can also practice Hatha yoga [or Raja yoga, etc...] with Christ as one's focus of devotion, and even use a favorite Christian phrase, prayer or saying as a mantra [to focus the mind].
elson - 2005-03-14 4:26 PM
I know several Xtns (& myself) who practice various styles or forms of yoga. To the extent that it can be practiced aside from Budhism, asana has no more religious significance than running. Likewise, pranayama.
That which is called yama is understood in a different way by the Xtn, although there is certainly nothing wrong with truthfulness, nonstealing, noncoveting, and such. Concentration and meditation are wonderful things, but of course there are more & less beneficial things to concentrate & meditate on, in Budhism as well as in Xtniaty.
Yoga and Buddhism aren't strictly equivalent. Although there are technical similarities, the main difference is that Buddhism is [strictly speaking] atheistic, and yoga is not. Meaning in Buddhism meditation on or devotional worship of divine beings is not practiced.
Yes there are more or less beneficial things to meditate on in yoga. Your chosen focus need only be agreeable and appropriate. A great master, teacher, saviour, etc... IS.
elson - 2005-03-14 4:26 PM
Samadhi makes a kind of sense to Xtn mystics, but this is difficult to explain.
Would be delighted if someone were to attempt this!
elson - 2005-03-14 4:26 PM
There irreconcilable differences between Xtniaty and all other religions, and any attempt to shoehorn Jesus or His teachings into a Budhist (or any other religion) mold will fail miserably. What Xtns must avoid while practicing yoga is the worship of anything except the Father. Since worship is primarily a matter of intention (in yogic terms :-), not outward actions, this is not difficult to achieve.
Hope I'm not flogging a dead pony here, but in my view, those differences are self-imposed. The point is rather to integrate your devotion and worship of your spiritual ideal(s) into your other yoga practices.
Try it, you'll like it!  |
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| Thank you for the thought-provoking words Christine. Now, keep in mind that Anne Askew suffered among men for all their beliefs in Justification by Faith in Christ. (And yes, witchcraft was often attached to the charges against the men as well, probably not as often as the women, but they got saddled with it. When former Roman Catholic priests (who had converted to favor of the Protestant Reformation) were defrocked prior to being burned during the persecutions under "Bloody Mary," they were forced to wear Satanic caricatures of their priestly garments. The idea was that they were practicing witchcraft---that era's view of witchcraft---and they were humiliated accordingly. Witchcraft was not exclusively charged to women, especially during persecutions of the early Protestants.
We know about Anne Askew, and Anne Boleyn, and scores of others, because men thought so highly of them that they painstakingly backtracked through court documents to compile the accounts of their trials, their interrogations (during which many were tortured), and their profoundly scholarly and faithful ability to declare their faith and argue prelates to a standstill. John Foxe was a man, and we owe his careful catalogue a debt for preserving these documents.
I do not doubt that Anne Askew did in some way emasculate Sir Thomas Moore when she refused to knuckle under. But that doesn't mean that all men are so ego driven as he, nor that men in her same position held their ground less faithfully. Men and women alike suffered during the persecutions, and all manner of evil and loathesome accusations were leveled against them that were untrue and unjust, when their only crimes were refusing to believe in the Eucharist or the sacrosanctity of an externally visible church.
As for prayer, thank you. It's always a good time to pray, so I wouldn't object to prayer at the time you suggested. Like so many Christians, I imitate David's habit and have fellowship with the Lord morning and evening: upon rising and just before retiring. And of course many small prayers go to Him during the day. Of course there have been times in Savasana at the end of class when I do thank Him that He's provided this yoga for me to help regain my flexibility. Or when I'm folding all my laundry from five days a week of practice I remember to thank Him that I'm able to work out again. It feels good to fold clothes that I thought I might never use again.
Because I, like you, have a hard time keeping still, I often use hymns and singing to help me pray. I use the doctrinal hymns that many people grew up with, not the Christian contemporary stuff. I sing with the CDs (off in a room by myself) and that seems to stir my spirit better to pray.
Thank you for the thought-provoking post! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | jeriwho - 2005-03-30 7:31 PM
Like so many Christians, I imitate David's habit and have fellowship with the Lord morning and evening: upon rising and just before retiring. And of course many small prayers go to Him during the day. Of course there have been times in Savasana at the end of class when I do thank Him that He's provided this yoga for me to help regain my flexibility.
You sound very much like me with "Om nama Sivaya", which starts and ends my practice
of yoga. I thank Siva for yoga whenever I go the mat -- and often while I am on it.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | As a note to all reading this, we've noticed in the past that threads
are automatically frozen at about 8 pages, which we are approaching
on this one.
We can blame Brother Bruce just for laughs. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Sivaram,
you said:
Yoga and Buddhism aren't strictly equivalent. Although there are technical similarities, the main difference is that Buddhism is [strictly speaking] atheistic, and yoga is not. Meaning in Buddhism meditation on or devotional worship of divine beings is not practiced.
I just wanted to add that Tibetan Buddhism has Dieties...all kinds. When I became introduced to Hinduism by my Husband, we found similarities within those dieties and the way they are practiced and worshipped is also similar. Even my Tibetan Guru has commented about this compared to Hinduism. The Dalai Lama also has talked about this. They just say that in order to do a good practice, you need to select one path and stay on it. So, having that said, you are right about Buddhism being atheistic, but if you really think about it, so is Hinduism - I'm sure someone will come along and clarify this better. The priests at the South Indian temple that I go to clearly state that the dieties are only used as visual aids and this is the same concept with Buddhism as well. So, if the dieties are visual aids, and God is in everything...or in the case of Buddha, everyone has Buddha nature, then to put a lable on it and say atheistic would be incorrect too. I really feel that Jesus Christ tried to teach this concept as well, but the minds receiving the information got it all mixed up and taught that God is a seperate entity and that we are not part of that entity. I really, really believe that Jesus Christs' teachings have been totally scattered and altered by higher authorities for control over human beings..its such a waste when you think about all he endured to help mankind for that time period. But the good news is that we are here and we are practicing the dharma, whether it be Christian, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever. The teachings are basically the same, the people practicing the teachings are what is not the same and I haven't met very many truly dedicated, Christian Bodhisattva's in over 20 years. I see them from time to time in the form of little old lady's who still abide by the code. I just wish that these people would truly live the way Jesus taught, not talk about it on Sunday mornings, but truly live and act the way Jesus taught. Of course, this is probably a common thing amoung all religions and why there is so much conflict. Oh well.
BTW, I would not want to be a witch...I do like witches. Witches are not nice, they play games with people and they are mean. In Nepal they do special poojas for houses with witches, you do not want witches to be around you, they are trouble makers. As for the ones who got burned here in America, most of them were not witches like the true sense of a witch. |
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| My comments:
Jeri: Thanks for acceptance.
Tourist: You said: Neel, would you also be able to say that all yogis practice Christianity because the yamas and niyamas instruct us to behave in ways that are similar to the teachings of Christ?
===> Dear Tourist, I do not know what is meant by practiciing Christianity exactly means. I mean what I know about its practice, I shall NOT call it so. For example, when you see above statements in the bulletin board, and on TV, and elsewhere, I will not call yama and niyama as Christianity. But, since you are most sincere Yoga person and also possibly interested in Philosophy, like Brother bay guy, and sometimes (!!!) Big Brother Bruce, let me give you the real logic below:
yama and niyamas come from Vedic Times which is 10s of thousands of years old, and which Patanjali put into his sutras very recently in around 300 b.c. All the facets of yama and niyam in Buddhism, which is before Patanjali comes directly from Vedic Literature ( I must make this statement, there is NO single addition of knowledge or realization in Buddhism which is NOT in Vedas. In fact there can not be in any thing after Vedas. This will be a very big topic for later date.). Now, Patanjali Sutras says.. xxx yamah, xxxxetc. and then
jaatideshakaalasamayaavachchinnaaH saarvabhaumaa mahaavratam. that is in real Yoga yama and niyama cross the boundaries of jaati - birth (in animal species, and in humans, qualities of brahmin, vaishya, etc.), kaala - time, samaya - occassion, anavachchinaa - crossing the boundaries.
Due to the above statements, it will be impossible to call yamas and niyamas as Christianity, which is a particular faith. Now, the problem in your question arises from the assumption that Yoga and Christianity are two different things. Your assumption is wrong in Philosophical context, because the core of any spiritual teaching is always the same. Thus, yama and niyama in Yoga may be identical that in Christianity or Christ's teaching. But, due to this fact, Christ becomes Yogi (which he also physicall was, not only philosophically). But, Yogi does not become Christian.
If your assumption is considered correct, that means there is something in Christianity, which defies Yoga (which is true in certain Christian's minds, as you know.) Then, Christianity becomes a limited and wrong view, which I am NOT saying it is wrong. But, it will be wrong if this assumption were to be correct.
So, whether your assumption is incorrect or correct, Yoga precedes the Christianity, Christ was a Yogi, Christinaity instructions match with Yoga yama and niyama, and Yoga can not be avoided on a spiritual path.
NOTE: when I say your assumption, I am not focussed on 'you', I mean jjust the assumption or statement that 'YOGA and Christianity' are two different things.
Now, due to the nature of things, the above logic is valid for 'Buddhism', "Islam", Judaism. As an additional note, I want to tell you one true information, which might surprise you. The world famous Philosopher Aristotle, requested Alexander the Great who invaded India during his conquest of the world, to bring the copy of Shrimad Bhagavadgita (also a summary of Upanishads, which is Vedanta) to Greek as the most authoritative text of Philosophy at that time.
Peace and Love
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| jeriwho - 2005-03-31 8:31 AM
As for prayer, thank you. It's always a good time to pray, so I wouldn't object to prayer at the time you suggested. Like so many Christians, I imitate David's habit and have fellowship with the Lord morning and evening: upon rising and just before retiring. And of course many small prayers go to Him during the day. Of course there have been times in Savasana at the end of class when I do thank Him that He's provided this yoga for me to help regain my flexibility. Or when I'm folding all my laundry from five days a week of practice I remember to thank Him that I'm able to work out again. It feels good to fold clothes that I thought I might never use again.
Very nice, Jeri. That's really the essence of it.
Whew, long row to hoe. 
Happy trails... |
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Can Christians Practice Yoga?
