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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | I'm responding to posts from the Meditation forum...
Cyndi or HotYogi wrote:
I recently saw a TV program (I think it was Pat Robert's channel) where they were having a "panel discussion" on various religions and one of the panelists with real impressive credentials (I think he had a PhD in divinity from a leading university) said that the chanting of Om activates demons and propitiates Satan. I think I switched the channel at that moment.
Cyndi is Rolling on the Floor....
No wonder my Baptist Father and Brother is having such a hard time dealing with my Hindu husband...is that what they are saying these days???? I'll be sure NOT to wear my Om necklace in front of them...they might freak out and start chanting Bible scriptures to me. I started to go visit my Father after I visited the Temple yesterday...I guess all that Tika on my head would have made them pass out...geez, what will they think of next. I guess they'll be saying the anti-christ is from India or something wierd like that.
I find this totally scary! But it's coming from the same general place as the
attack on Teletubby Tinky Winky and now SpongeBob SquarePants. These folks
aren't just paranoid, they are cultural terrorists.
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-02-28 8:57 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Beyond scary, BG   I respect people having an honest questioning or even skepticism about chanting om and have no problem with people opting out of chanting etc. but fear mongering is just not acceptable. People really need to understand the difference between theology and superstition and not let their so-called leaders get away with this sort of stuff. |
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| I have a friend who asked the minister of the Baptist church across the road from her if she could use the church hall to hold yoga classes.....She was turned down unfortunately(surprise surprise)....I think it is so sad and so ignorant. It seems some people think that yoga is a religion. It is a philosophy and the religions of people who wish to practice should not be an issue.
Namaste and Om Shanti
Laura |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Bad Guy wrote: (sorry I like to say Bad, its looks like proper english, heehee:~) I find this totally scary! But it's coming from the same general place as the attack on Teletubby Tinky Winky and now SpongeBob SquarePants. These folks aren't just paranoid, they are cultural terrorists. and Cyndi is trembling: You should try living with a person like this for all of your childhood years...talk about oppression and torture. I can certainly relate to the Tibetans and what they had to endure...some of us Americans have endured growing up in that environment too, just on a subtle level. Speaking of the general place and where this comes from......I asked my Father when he voted for GWB his main reason why?? He explained to me that GWB was protecting our country and he did not want to see the UN control us and that he was the only one that had the guts to go after terrorism. That paranoia you mentioned...hmm. I don't really want to start a debate about GWB, because we all know about it, but it is interesting that this fear is what is leading our country. It gives me the creeps sometimes to be around some of my family with this mentality and they are soooo happy right now.
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| Just in case you have a doubt about Pat Robertson's quote. Here's a related one.
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/BringItOn/health-index.asp
Shortened.
Q Do you think it's OK for a Christian to practice Pilates techniques?
A. Pat Robertson
I see nothing wrong with doing Pilates. It has to do with stretching and very interesting exercises. Some of these yoga teachers come with their little chants and little bowls and towels and all of this stuff that goes along with yoga, including special spiritual breathing exercises. . . . but it doesn't seem to have any spiritual connotations. 
Wonder what Patricia Walden from Boston who how runs her yoga studios out of several churches would think of that.
Or the minister and his wife in my neighborhood who atend classes weekly. 
It seems that this comment embodies a logical fallacy called a strawman. Just discuss a small part of a complex issue then destroy it.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-28 8:01 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Cyndi - 2005-02-28 7:14 PM
Bad Guy wrote: (sorry I like to say Bad, its looks like proper english, heehee:~)
I am not Bad. I am Bay.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | MrD - 2005-02-28 7:46 PM
Just in case you have a doubt about Pat Robertson's quote. Here's a related one.
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/BringItOn/health-index.asp
Shortened.
Q Do you think it's OK for a Christian to practice Pilates techniques?
A. Pat Robertson
I see nothing wrong with doing Pilates. It has to do with stretching and very interesting exercises. Some of these yoga teachers come with their little chants and little bowls and towels and all of this stuff that goes along with yoga, including special spiritual breathing exercises. . . . but it doesn't seem to have any spiritual connotations.
Wonder what Patricia Walden from Boston who how runs her yoga studios out of several churches would think of that.
Or the minister and his wife in my neighborhood who atend classes weekly.
It seems that this comment embodies a logical fallacy called a strawman. Just discuss a small part of a complex issue then destroy it.
You should look up what he said about Hinduism in 1995....this is one scary evil man.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, curious minds would like to know what he said...So, what did Pat say about Hinduism? Do u have a reference, I really am serious. I haven't heard to much about stuff like this - I live in a strange area where people are mostly Christian and a few of those white supremest people - which is like something from the x-files - calling Mulder & Scully. I wonder what they must be thinking when they see my house that is lined with Prayer Flags and Buddha statutes everywhere. Once my step-Father who's a native, told me he was worried that someone would burn my house down. Thank goodness these people around here stay loaded on their moonshine and probably think its a barbeque joint on top of a mountain, LOL!! Don't worry Bay, I have always wanted to say that to you...it is the first thing that comes to my mind..like oh its that Bad Guy who mispelled his name:~)
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-28 10:10 PM
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| I recently re-watched a TV programme here (made in the US) which discussed why gun crime is so high in the states even when compared with other countries where it is legal to have arms, such as Canada. After much debate and conversation with folk on both sides of the debate, the commentator came to the conclusion that it is the culture of fear prevalent in US society which drives this issue. I find it very interesting, and not a little scary, to see the same conclusion being made here.
Other countries also suffer terrorist attack and extensive criticism by those perporting to be fighting some form of Western Imperialist conspiracy but don't develop social paranoia because of it, so I guess my next question should be why the fear?
Fiona |
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| The reason I wanted to address this topic is because here in Singapore I'm actually hearing these things second hand, ie from the church-goers who're hearing it from their ministers.
I've been thinking about doing a workshop or class on yoga for Christians, incorporating Christian aesthetics and materials, or at least trying to dialog with them on some level to try and alleviate their misconceptions.
However, I don't think the evangelicals or fundamentalists would be willing to go there, and in any case, I really don't see proseletizing or converting people as the function of a yoga teacher.
It's the potential students on the fence who I'm interested in reaching the most. The true-belivers won't come near yoga anyway. I don't wish to criticize or judge them as that's not really good for ourselves, either. I think best to just let them be.
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| Q Do you think it's OK for a Christian to practice Pilates techniques?
A. Pat Robertson
I see nothing wrong with doing Pilates. It has to do with stretching and very interesting exercises. Some of these yoga teachers come with their little chants and little bowls and towels and all of this stuff that goes along with yoga, including special spiritual breathing exercises. . . . but it doesn't seem to have any spiritual connotations.
I believe it was Ghandi who said:
First they laugh at you
Then they ignore you
Then they fight you
Then you win.
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| Attached is Pat Robert's take on hinduism in 1995 that was mentione by Bay Guy.
July 1995
Using TV, Christian Pat Robertson Denounces Hinduism as "Demonic"
Evangelist Opposes Freedom of Religion, Says It's Time To Convert India and Wants to Keep Hinduism Out of US
By Valli J. Rajan, Pennsylvania
It's not that unusual for Pat Robertson's daily Christian TV show, the "700 Club," to portray other religions in less than a complimentary light. Jews, Muslims and occasionally Hindus are singled out for a scathing recounting of their spiritual errors. Still, I was shocked to see Robertson on his March 23th show label Hinduism as "demonic" and advocate keeping Hindus out of America. My concerns intensified when President Clinton later implicated hateful talk in the fatal Oklahoma City bombing.
Robertson was already a well-known figure in the conservative Christian community when his 1988 bid for the US presidency shot him into national attention and effectively anointed him leader of the Christian right wing. Talented and industrious, he is head or founder of numerous organizations, including a 1,400 student university. His political action group, the 1.4-million-member Christian Coalition, has decided influence in a new Republican-controlled Congress.
Christian evangelists regularly slander Hinduism with little impact beyond their own flock [see Hinduism Today, February, 1989]. But when a national figure like Robertson does it on a widely-watched TV program, that's different.
The March 23rd episode details Robertson's conversion of some Hindu people of Rajahmundry in Andhra Pradesh, India, to the Christian religion. In the course of the show, Robertson makes shameful, unChristian accusations against the Hindu faith, the world's oldest religion. When contacted, Mr. Robertson's office told us he was "unavailable for comment."
To begin, Robertson's experiences in Rajahmundry are described by a narrator. The scene is of a poverty-stricken people, bathing in the river at the head of which rests a statue of Lord Siva. Water is pouring out of Siva's head and a snake is wrapped around his head as well. Robertson and his son are found in the midst of the scene, observing and mocking the early morning prayers of Hindus. As they witness the scene, they make incorrect reference to the river as "Siva's sperm," and claim that the people "were supposed to wash away their sins in the sperm of the God."
Robertson goes on to characterize Hinduism as having evil tendencies toward random spiritual worship and polytheism. Mr. Robertson's son and fellow evangelist, Gordon, stated disparagingly, "Whenever [Hindus] feel any sort of inspiration, whether it's by a river or under a tree, on top of a hill, they figure that some God or spirit is responsible for that. And so they'll worship that tree, they'll worship that hill or they'll worship anything." What was even more regrettable was Robertson's assertion of some connection between idol worship and the poverty in India. Robertson does not deny his son's claim that "Wherever you find this type of idolatry, you'll find a grinding poverty. The land has been cursed."
But if the argument of poverty as the curse of India is not enough for the American audience of "The 700 Club," they next hear Hinduism boldly labeled "demonic." Robertson says, "Siva [is] the God of Destruction, and his consort, the Goddess of death [Kali]-that black, ugly statue there with all those fierce eyes." He then suggests that the evil tendencies of death and destruction can be found in those who worship the deities: "I mean these people are out to kill other human beings in the name of their God." They mention in support of this conclusion the Aum Shinrikyo sect in Japan. This eccentric Buddhist-based organization was likely responsible for subway gas attacks in Tokyo earlier this year. Their icons, unfortunately, included Siva-sure proof, goes the Robertson thinking, of demons at work.
"Although Hinduism admits that different beings and entities can perform what we might consider evil acts," corrects Dr. Arvind Sharma, Birks Professor of Comparative Religion at McGill University, Toronto, "there does not seem to be a single entity such as the Christian devil in Hinduism." And since there is no practice of evil or concept of the devil in Hinduism, "To call Hinduism demonic," concludes Dr. Sharma, "is really demonic."
By accusing Hinduism of being demonic, Robertson is merely reinforcing the age-old stereotype that has been placed on the Indian culture by the West. "That's been standard operating procedure missionaries have used ever since they invaded India in the 19th century," explains Dr. Gordon Melton, Director of the Institute for the Study of American Religions. "In approaching Eastern religions and African religions, it has been the stance of most conservative Christians that the deities of those religions are, in fact, personified demons. And that perspective goes back to the Jewish encounter with the Caananite culture a millennia ago as described in the Bible."
Dr. Kusumita Pedersen, Director for the Project on Human Rights and Religion, similarly observes that Robertson has employed "almost every negative image and cliché that has been used about Hinduism since the 18th century."
As the show unfolds, we finally we arrive at the real intention of Robertson's missionary trip to India: to convert Hindus to the Christian faith. A narrator describes the scene of the conversion in which thousands of Hindus were "set free from a lifetime of fear and demonic oppression. The scene was overwhelming." Actually, the scene is oddly over dramatic. Why would thousands of people in a split second throw away their entire way of life that has been passed down over the centuries, because of a brief speech given by a stranger from another country? Although Robertson mentions the naturally deep devotion of the Hindus, he apparently fails to appreciate that any religious preacher in India gets the same reception, whether Christian, Hindu, Jain, Sikh or Buddhist-though it does help to be white, American, famous and rich.
It is also apparent he was frustrated with the Hindu ability to just absorb one more God. "I preached to them the second commandment about idolatry. You know, `They shall hold no other Gods before me,' and number two, `You shall not fall down or make any idols of anything.' Many people accept Christ, but they still go with those processions down to those riverbanks. We followed along with the crowd and I said, `You've got to give that up.'"
Political Agenda
The program used common stereotypes of Hinduism (as well of as other prominent non-Christian religions in America) to create fear among the American people of non-Christian religions. What is the purpose behind those tactics?
Judging from Michael Little's, President of the Christian Broadcasting Network comments on the show-"There are so many opportunities for us to take programs which will reach the people of India," and "Help us carry the light to a nation in darkness"-it is obvious that one strategy of "The 700 Club" is to gain support and money. "Give us a hand on this [India]," pleads Robertson at one point, "because it's a big one." But that is just part of the plan.
Robertson's true thinking is revealed in his 1991 book The New World Order. That novel discloses a secret plan being followed by the present political leaders of the world. Robertson labels that plan the "New World Order," which he sees as the formation of a one world government, one police force, one judicial system, and one economic market. Robertson claims that in this "new world government no one could speak out against the beliefs of a Muslim, a Hindu, or an animist. What we know as the freedom of religion would be taken away, and Christians would be muzzled."
But Robertson has a vision of another future, one is which "God sweeps away the pretense of the satanic and man-made counterfeits and announces His New World Order, and His anointed leader, Jesus the Messiah."
Robertson stated in The New World Order: "The media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'"
Mr. David Cantor, Senior Research Analyst of the Anti-Defamation League, points out that such "religious tests for office are unconstitutional. It's not just a purely a religious statement. It's a political statement."
The Human Rights Issue
"In the discussion of human rights, there are different positions on the right to free speech or freedom of expression. The extreme position, that is sometimes called the `American position,' is total freedom of speech," explains Dr. Pedersen. "As Americans, we believe that even the most offensive and the most incendiary statements should be allowed in the name of freedom of expression, because once you start to legally restrict the freedom of speech, you are on a slippery slope of restricting all kinds of speech on different political or ideological ground."
Dr. Pedersen feels that such anti-Hindu statements may refer back to the 1920s, at a time when the Ku Klux Klan (a Christian white-supremacist group advocating violence against Black Americans) was on the rise, and the national belief was that all Americans must be Christians. During the 1920s, immigration laws prevented European immigrants from entering the United States. Eventually Europeans were allowed to immigrate and by 1965 Hindus were included in immigrant quotas.
However, in the 1990s, some feel that the multicultural immigration has caused a backlash in American society in the form of racial discrimination between various cultural groups. In the wake of such discontent, Peter Brimelow has recently written a book called Alien Nation which attacks multiculturalism and its negative effects on American society. Something must be done, Brimelow advocates, to prevent white people from becoming a minority in America.
"What Robertson is really saying is that Hindus shouldn't be allowed to come to the United States," evaluates Dr. Pedersen. "All of the Hindu engineers, doctors and computer experts who are living here should go home. This is a very big statement that he has made."
Even Christians are concerned with Robertson's manner of preaching Christianity. Sister Mary Elizabeth Moore, a Professor at Claremount's School of Theology, feels that Robertson may be overstepping his boundaries as a Christian. "I have been very distressed that Pat Robertson and others like him have used the gospel to preach condemnation of others, to judge harshly, to demonize people in other faiths and to demonize some Christians with whom they don't just happen to agree," expresses Sister Moore. "I think that's absolutely counter to the gospel of Jesus Christ."
Hinduism is not the only religion under Robertson's extremist attack; The New World Order is filled with anti-Semitism. However, Ms. Nancy Israel of the American Jewish Committee, notes that Robertson is slowly transforming. "He's being very careful now," observes Ms. Israel, who is from the Pittsburgh chapter of the American Jewish Committee. "Up until now he's been able to say what he wanted to say, and I think that those people who don't watch `The 700 Club' and don't read his materials have no idea what he's saying. He's been forced to back off because of this public spotlight and because he's decided to make the Christian Coalition a more mainstream organization."
Sri Anutama Das, Director of Communications at ISKCON feels that Robertson's actions should send a message to devotees of Hinduism. "It's unfortunate that such an influential religious and Christian leader as Pat Robertson demonstrates disdain for the world's oldest religious culture. As a Vaishnava, I see his emphasis in trying to spread Christianity in India, specifically among Hindus, as a reminder of the need for all of us to delve deeply into our own faith's traditions," notes Anutama, who is from ISKCON's branch in Rockland, Maryland. "As Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, `Raja Vija, Raja Guyam.' This knowledge of the soul, of Sanatana Dharma, is the highest spiritual knowledge. However, if we do not educate ourselves and our children and abide by the teachings, materialists will find us easy targets for conversion."
What Should We Do?
It is true that if our Hindu faith is challenged, perhaps we will become more aware of its teachings, as suggested by Anutama. If that is so, we can view the "700 Club" attack on Hinduism as a blessing in disguise. "I would say that anytime we see the extreme of a religious community, we see warning signals that need to be taken seriously," agrees Sister Moore. "Those signals usually reveal something of the larger religion, something of the possibility of distortions that people need to worry about. These distortions can stir other people who have more whole views of the religion to express and live their faith more fully."
We should use this opportunity to profess and understand our Hindu faith more fully. We as Hindus need to respond to and erase Western stereotypes and hate speeches against our religion. There are many ways to accomplish that.
We can articulate our complaints through letters, phone calls and petitions to the government offices, such as the Justice Department Hate Crimes Division. The Indian government could express its concern, as it did for Hindus in South Africa for years. And we can bring such statements into the light of public discussion by filing complaints with the Anti-Defamation League.
The Anti-Defamation League was established in 1913 by B'nai B'rith, a Jewish service organization. The League and its parent organization defend human rights, promote intercultural relations, provide for the religious and cultural needs of Jewish college students, sponsor Jewish education among adults and youth groups and carry on a broad program of community service and welfare. They confer with governments and the UN on civil rights, immigration, abuses of freedom by totalitarian states, the position of Israel and problems affecting Jews throughout the world.
Dr. Pedersen feels that perhaps we can form our own protection league: "I recommend the formation of a Hindu anti-defamation program which will monitor these kinds of statements in the press and the media, and will gather accurate information and will speak out when something should be protested." In that way, perhaps the entire Hindu public will be constantly made aware of any false allegations made against our religion, and efforts to respond can be coordinated.
Dr. Jayaraman, executive director of Bharat Vidya Bhavan in New York, feels that the way to dispel Hindu stereotypes is to teach the common American man about our religion. "Indian philosophy should be taught methodically, either in the school system or by speakers prepared to go around the country to talk just like these missionaries," suggests Dr. Jayaraman. "In every city, in every state they should have such speakers, powerful speakers who can say with authority, `This is Hinduism. What you are saying is wrong.'" Dr. Jayaraman also suggests that small books discussing true Hindu philosophy be freely distributed to the public.
But the main way to break down anti-Hindu sentiments is by educating our children and ourselves more about Hinduism. Such understanding will place us in a better position to combat ignorant statements.
"Because Hindus take a generous view of other religions, they think that others will take a generous view of theirs," observes Dr. Sharma. "And even when others attack them, because of their basic nature, they don't take it to heart."
According to Dr. Pedersen, comments such as Robertson's, should be taken seriously. During the annual dinner given by Human Rights Watch, an international panel monitored by Peter Jennings discussed whether hate speech should be restricted or banned. "The next step after this truly disgusting defamation [of Robertson's] is what these human right activists on the panel call `the speech of instigation,'" recounted Dr. Pedersen. The `speech of instigation' is a build-up for murder and genocide. It happened in Rwanda. The press and media started to build up a rhetoric that so and so should be killed. After that went on for some months, so and so started getting killed. There is a line to be drawn somewhere on free speech, but we as Americans just don't know quite where yet."
Keeping that in mind, perhaps we should turn our thoughts to the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building. After the bombing, President Clinton spoke out against hate speeches, making a clear connection between hate speeches, propaganda and the bombing. The seeds of hate may blossom into the weeds of violence. Therefore, it is important that we take early and strong action against ignorant and hateful comments such as those made by Robertson. If we don't, we will one day face more than Mr. Robertson's hateful words.
Complaints may be made directly to the U.S. Department of Justice, Hate Crimes Division, Tenth and Constitution Ave. NW, Washington, D.C., 20530. Fax: 202-514-4371.
Letters can also be directed to Mr. Pat Robertson, CBN, 977 Centerville Turnpike, Virginia Beach, Virginia, 23463-0001.
Of Indian ancestry, correspondent Valli Guruswamy Julie Rajan is a prolific freelance writer living in Pennsylvania with her husband. She is writing a non-fiction book on gender-based double standards in Hindu society and is interested in the betterment of women and minorities.
Sidebar: What He Said About Hindus
Excerpts from the March 23rd broadcast of the 700 Club:
Robertson: "India is not what you normally think of anymore. In the last five years, it's burst into the 20th century with modern technology, capitalism and, especially, television. They're breaking free from the old, and they're moving into the Western culture. But what that leaves is a spiritual vacuum. And yet there seems, finally in India, an opening to the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout this whole land. There is a huge population of teen-agers. These people are not locked into the old ways. They're looking for something new and better."
Cohost: "You know, Pat, we've seen in other countries where there's a certain period of vulnerability, or spiritual vulnerability. Now's the time to use the media to talk to them about what their future could really be like."
Robertson: "They have thousands and thousands of earth stations picking up satellites. It's a window of opportunity [for Christian TV programs]. Of all of India's problems, one stands out from the rest. That problem is idol worship. It is said there are hundreds of millions of Hindu deities. All this has put a nation in bondage to spiritual forces that have deceived many for thousands of years."
Gordon Robertson (his son): "Wherever you find this type of idolatry, you'll find a grinding poverty. The land has been cursed. The Bible talks in terms of the land being cursed on behalf of what the inhabitants have done to it. You erect all these idols under every green tree, on top of every hill, you're going to curse your land. And the oppression, we see it in evidence."
CBN Reporter: "[At the religious services Robertson conducted in India] they came, by the hundreds, even thousands, to a makeshift altar to confess their faith in Christ and receive a touch from heaven, and be set free from a lifetime of fear and demonic oppression.
Robertson: "I [told] them to renounce idolatry, but many people accept Christ and still go with those processions [of Hindu deities]."
Cohost: "You said there's a connection between the New Age, as it is in America, and Hinduism."
Robertson: "It's the same thing. You see, the whole concept of Hindus is based on karma; that people have a karma attached to them when they are born, and they go through a cycle of life and they come back in the next world as something else. So the whole thought of reincarnation is karma-you come back as a cow, a pig, a goat, a dog, a snake or an untouchable. We're importing Hinduism into America. The whole thought of your karma, of meditation, of the fact that there's no end of life and there's this endless wheel of life, this is all Hinduism. Chanting too. Many of those chants are to Hindu Gods-Vishnu, Hare Krishna. The origin of it is all demonic. We can't let that stuff come into America. We've got the best defense, if you will-a good offense."
Sidebar: The Robertson Empire
The promotional literature provided Hinduism Today by the Robertson ministries details the extensive empire Pat Robertson has developed over 25 years of ministry. It is really an admirable accomplishment, tarnished only by the kind of religious bigotry demonstrated in the March 23rd program [see sidebar left]. Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network is the world's largest television ministry, with programs airing across the United States and in 70 countries. He also has interests in non-religious family-oriented television, specifically the cable Family Channel. In 1978 he founded the Operation Blessing International Relief and Development Corporation which since 1978 has distributed aid worth US$440 million to 114 million people in 72 countries. He's written nine books, one of which was a best seller and number one religious book in America in 1984. In 1992 Robertson was selected by Newsweek magazine as one of America's "100 Cultural Elite." Robertson also founded the American Center for Law and Justice to pursue a Christian agenda in the courts by providing free legal advice and representation in important precedent-setting cases. His Regent University [photo above] is an accredited graduate school offering degrees in communication, education, counseling, business, divinity, public policy and law.
Robertson ventured out of the strictly religious field in 1987 when he resigned his ordination as a Southern Baptist minister to run for president of the United States. As part of this effort, the Christian Coalition was formed, a "national grassroots citizen action organization" to work for "pro-family legislation and family-friendly public policy on national, state and local levels." Both are represented on the World Wide Web: Robertson at http://the700 club.org//cbn/cbn.html and The Coalition at http://cc.org. Robertson and the Coalition are probably the single most effective Christian voice in American politics today, as demonstrated by their recent demands to Congress for a "Contract with the American Family," including "voluntary [ie, Christian] prayer in public schools"-something presently forbidden by law. One reaction to this contract came from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "It's a sad day in American politics when a TV preacher's political front group dictates the agenda for the United States Congress," said Barry Lynn, the organization's executive director. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I found Robertson's comments so offensive that I didn't want
to post even excerpt...the only way I can see him as other than
truly malicious is to assume that his stuff comes come from a deep
and unreflective ignorance...and even that is hard for me.
There's a bumper sticker I saw once: Fundamentalism Stops a Thinking Mind.
I wonder, however, whether fundamentalism is in fact the face of evil. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I don't know Bay Guy I think these type of people are just in plain denial....of LIFE!! The Pat Roberts of the world like to go around preaching and spouting off, but do they actually teach anything to their flock?? I say NO! After being brought up in that Christian environment, when I got older I was clueless as to how life was and what my responsibility was in this world was and my part in it. To comment about karma and the wheel of life so casually and make lite of it is simple ignorance - even if you don't believe in karma, there are other ways of getting your point across, problem is these people don't have an answer, they have no point. This religion is so scary to me because it has this dreary end - either heaven or hell depending on which one God thinks you should be in and you don't have a way of measuring yourself because they don't have many tools to practice their faith with and did you know you are a sinner?? What is with that?? I mean like, do these people ever think to ask the most important questions like Who am I? How did I get here?? I think its just a way of keeping them controlled and to not have any resposibility for their negative bahaviors and actions that keep them in that state of Samasara - to me that is a strong indication of pure EVIL if there is such a thing. Talk about destruction of the planet....how many churches are here in the US??? and how many trees and forest did they chop down for their parking lots. Thank you Hot Yogi for posting that, I had no idea about these things as I try to stay clear of politics. I read some things in Hinduism today but did not know that it was that crazy. I knew about the situation in India and the conversions that were taking place with young children - I found it to be so heartbreaking because they were being used and bribed with modern conveniences. Don't you remember how in America they always lured children in with candy and toys. At least now I know what my family thinks when they're around me and my husband. My Father tried to convert me as child and gave up....I don't think he would try again, but I'm sure he has me in his prayer box, which is good, I need all I can get and in Hindu culture, your parents are the God's! That is the BEST type of Blessing anyone can receive - even if they don't have a clue, I just try to remain neutral so that I don't upset my Father in a bad way, which I feel is real important when dealing with this delicate situation of family..cause that's karma too and I love my parents! Wonder what Pat R. would think about that? Having said all that....Being a Hindu, the interesting thing of all is that my Christian Father really has never expressed anything negative towards me and sometimes I think he really has some kind of deep respect towards my NON-Violent attitude. How can anyone really argue with the HH Dalai Lama - I always use him for a reference when I talk about things with my Dad. Like during our conversations, we basically agree on the important issues about family life and moral issues. When he starts to talk about negative things, I always revert the conversation back to a positive tone and sometimes I think it diffuses him and he sees my perspective and likes my viewpoint because we can find the mutual ground which is everyone really would like to have peace and be in a peaceful world without suffering. So, as Ghandi would say, "be the change you want the world to be". I like to say that if we continue to set an example and just be ourselves, eventually the world will take notice and hatred and violence cannot win - even though it looks hopeless, these kinds of people will f**k up somehow they always do:~) even GWB's days a comin` Soo, how this post can relate to yoga and christianity?? I think it can work, but if you want to be successful at it, you have to close one eye and have alot of understanding about Christianity itself and how you can apply Yoga to it. Not saying Close one eye and live a lie, just close one eye and find the positive - which is extremely challenging. You could always play a nice version of "Amazing Grace" during Savasana - wonder how Bruce would like that, LOL!! Actually, I love that song. I played Cecilia's version at my Mother's funeral - I used a Unity minister to perform the service....my sister loved it but made fun of the whales in the background:~) Her Christian family loved the service and contacted the minister later to get the CD - they didn't know I selected it:~)
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-01 4:48 PM
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| Cyndi wrote: I don't know Bay Guy I think these type of people are just in plain denial....of LIFE!!
I agree with this sentiment. I think a lot of the 'conservative' viewpoint is to narrow, exclude, or deny what seems to me to be natural biological variation and diversity, in favor of some idealized "right" kind of life/living. (And it's truly incongruous to me, that these same people that worship omnipotent, eternal, limitless God like to place restrictions on what God's world and creatures should be like.) As a Christian, I don't see why yoga should be off-limits in any way, and I think any idea that it should be is silly. But then, I'm also gay, and there's certainly plenty of Christians that don't think I should be practicing Christianity either. But there are also many, many Christians that I'm sure don't have the slightest problem with yoga (or gay Christians). It's just that, like there are all kinds of people, there are also all kinds of Christians (over 900 varieties of Protestantism alone); and those that want narrow interpretations would probably deny that, and say there's just one kind, the 'right' kind, whatever that is.
I do hope it's ok to be gay and practice yoga?! |
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| I am a hindu who belives in bible teachings and Christ teachings. Pat Robertson statement are anti christians as Christ said, " Judge not lest you be judged" Christ was about love and he tought yoga to his direct desciples. He procaimed, : Kingdome of God is within you.
Yoga is the science to find the kingdome of God. There are many references to yoga in new Gospel but they are not understoood.
Some statement that refer to yoga are
" When thy Eye is single, your body will be full of light" ( talks about third eye)
" Be still and you will know that you are God"
Son of God is the name given to self realized Yogi who has become one with God. Jesus said that he is not the only son of God but he gave power to all to become son of God. Anyone who follows yoga teachings can become one with christ and claim to be son of God or self realized.
The four wise men who came at birth of jesus were from India and they knew by yoga that jesus was born. Pat robertson can not chagne bible to say that the four wise men came from west. The fact that wise men predate Christ in east, illustrates that God knowledge was already in East before Christ was sent to west.
If you read christ teachings( separate it from other writings, you will not find contradiction with hindu dharma). In fact Christ, lived in India from age 13 to 30. There is no mention of christ during this age in bible but it is mentioned in Kashmir area in buddhist books about ISA.
Christians who are against christ techings( of love) are against christ himself. We need to remember that hindus also forgot their true religion of yoga and got lost in outward superstitions. Shiva is yogi with third eye open, his snakes represent lust and Shiva had control over body temptations( lust) and those who do not know what snakes represent, will name them demon. I think hindu should read their religion symbols signifcance so they know What Shiva means and what Brhama means.
I specially like Shiva because he is true Yogi. Ganga reprsents the mother nature and Yogi can understand how nature comes from heaven to earth. That is why Ganga is on Shiva's head. He also said to burn Kama as Yogi burns his sexual desires in yoga and meditations.
Christ was teaching meditation when he stated kingdome of God is within you. Now, lookaround and see how many christians go within to find kingdome of God. Trying to convert people will not lead to kingdome of God as it is not out there but within. Those who try to find God outside will not find the kingdome of God.
Yoga and meditation is thus one with Christ teachings.( there is full book on this subject). Christians can do yoga and yes gays and lesbians too. Christ will not judge any person with their sexual orientation.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | MichaelJ - 2005-03-03 3:55 PM
I do hope it's ok to be gay and practice yoga?!
If it isn't, a lot of my friends are going to Hell. 
I was really amused by a photo that ran in the NY Times
after Massachusetts legalized gay marriage. It showed
two men, one white and the other black, being married
by a woman priest. I can only imagine the reaction of
the 700 Club to that one!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | nathss - 2005-03-03 5:26 PM
Christians who are against christ techings( of love) are against christ himself. We need to remember that hindus also forgot their true religion of yoga and got lost in outward superstitions. Shiva is yogi with third eye open, his snakes represent lust and Shiva had control over body temptations( lust) and those who do not know what snakes represent, will name them demon. I think hindu should read their religion symbols signifcance so they know What Shiva means and what Brhama means.
I specially like Shiva because he is true Yogi. Ganga reprsents the mother nature and Yogi can understand how nature comes from heaven to earth. That is why Ganga is on Shiva's head. He also said to burn Kama as Yogi burns his sexual desires in yoga and meditations.
Christ was teaching meditation when he stated kingdome of God is within you. Now, lookaround and see how many christians go within to find kingdome of God. Trying to convert people will not lead to kingdome of God as it is not out there but within. Those who try to find God outside will not find the kingdome of God.
Yoga and meditation is thus one with Christ teachings.( there is full book on this subject). Christians can do yoga and yes gays and lesbians too. Christ will not judge any person with their sexual orientation.
Nathss ---
Thank you for posting this. I agree with all of it.
Bay Guy
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Nathss, Thanks for sharing that! As an American brought up in a Christian homelife, your story about Jesus Christ is NOT the same one I heard when I was a child....if I did, I would have been in heaven hearing about Indians and Tibetans and how they observed Jesus' enlightenment like Buddha and so on. Can you imagine the story books for children? Most Christians in the US deleted the India and Tibet part because they needed to have control over their church members. Did you ever see the movie "Stigmata". They leave so much out because they don't want people to think for themselves and they are afraid of losing their jobs. I'm not for gay or nor against it. I am so neutral because I really don't understand it and have never met that many gay people. How can I judge something that I don't really know about and understand. We are all human and we have to respect each other. The gays that I did know seem to be more open minded and I think that is what is so important in our world today. I did see a movie this summer called "Angels in America" - I loved it and thought that it was funny at the local Ingles Market here in the Bible belt, they almost put x rated stickers on it and told everyone is was elicit and adult material....like watching T.V. these days was worse than this movie, LOL!! So, who cares if your gay and doing yoga...open up a gay yoga studio, why not? Can I come too? |
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| Michael J - As a Christian, I don't see why yoga should be off-limits in any way, and I think any idea that it should be is silly. But then, I'm also gay, and there's certainly plenty of Christians that don't think I should be practicing Christianity either. But there are also many, many Christians that I'm sure don't have the slightest problem with yoga (or gay Christians).
Yes! Let us not forget there are Liberal Chirstians out there too! I don't see anything wrong with Christians practicing yoga, being gay, listening to metal, reading Harry Potter, or watching Lord of the Rings! Some of the Pat Robertson's out there can really give the *good Christians* a bad name. I can't see a "real" Christian (for lack of a better term) putting down anyone's religion or putting anyone down for x, y or z period.
The things Pat Robertson is quoted saying are SHoCKiNG!  I hope that he doesn't taint the views of people leading them to believe all Christians are like that (ignorant and disrespectful of other religions, etc.).
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| P.s.
Great post nathss!
Cyndi -
I'm not for gay or nor against it. I am so neutral because I really don't understand it and have never met that many gay people. How can I judge something that I don't really know about and understand. We are all human and we have to respect each other.
I'm not gay, but I have a gay relative, so I always defend her and her rights. I wish everyone would have your open mind! You stated it very well when you said "How can I judge something that I don't really know about and understand." Too bad more people do not think that way.
Edited by Dragon 2005-03-03 11:16 PM
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| Yall are great! Thanks for all the friendly posts. Maybe someday I will open a gay yoga studio! How funny. We could put on Village People signing YMCA when we do ardha chandrasana with padahastasana.
Cyndi I'd love to meet you someday, you sound very cool.
I would like to ask, what is this about Jesus living in India? I've never heard of this. I thought there was no record of his life prior to his ministries, ie, as told in the gospels. |
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| "In the language of the early Christians the mysteries were those religious teachings that were carefully guarded from the knowledge of the profane. An example is the Secret Gospel of Mark, which was preserved from profane view in Alexandria, and is now known only through chance references in a letter of Clement of Alexandria. The "sayings" Gospel of Thomas expresses mysteries that were confided by Jesus to Thomas alone, according to the manuscript, and the traditions of early Christian Gnosticism were based on esoteric information available only to disciples. Though these traditions were marginalized by mainstream Pauline Christianity and eventually declared "heretical", it has been suggested that Christianity had its origin in a mystery of initiates. According to this view, Christianity began as a Jewish adaptation of Greek mystery religion, and that Paul drew organized Christianity in another, more public, Hellenized direction, ultimately more acceptable to mainstream Roman culture."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_religion |
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| MichaelJ wrote
"would like to ask, what is this about Jesus living in India? I've never heard of this. I thought there was no record of his life prior to his ministries, ie, as told in the gospels"
Jesus lived in India is written by Holger Kersten.
www.holgerkersten.com
He referred Nicolai Notovitch , a Russian Historian who went to Kashmir and saw Buddhist book about Jesus.
Shambhu Nath
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| http://www.spinninglobe.net/jesusinindia.htm
This link has more details about Jesus lived in India.
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Can Christians Practice Yoga?
