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| zoebird-
I have to say that I feel the same way. I am not sold on Bikram, but I am not against it either. My experience with yoga has been mostly with books and writing my own sequences from the books. I like rotating postures in and out so that I can learn new ones every once in a while. So, to go to Bikram classes has been a whole new experience for me - from the fixed set of postures to the heat to the way that many teachers conduct class (sometimes with a "you have three seconds to go, kick out" attitude). I can't say that I have a problem with these things though - I'll have to find out for myself. I do feel it necessary to really watch myself so that I don't get injured. Different teachers point out different things about form and how things are supposed to feel. Somtimes I agree and sometimes I am not so sure. But I still have so much to learn that I can't begin to judge at this point.
I think it's great that you encourage students to try other styles of yoga for themselves. I intend to do that - I think I am going to check out an ashtanga class this weekend.
Sorry this went off the initial topic, but it seems that the locking knee/elbow debate evolves into this sort of discussion. |
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| i think it is very important to take care of oneself in a yoga class. i often use the mantra throughout class "be yourself, do only what works for you using appropriate modifications." i teach postures as a series of modifications, try this. if you want to go deeper, try this. if you want to go further, try this. if this still feels comfortable or you want more of a challenge, try this. followed by 'choose your own adventure, you don't have to be anyone but yourself!' this empowers students to engage at their level on that day, and i even demonstrate (when i take classes where my own clients will be present) that i also have days where i do heavily modified poses, and some days, i just do all modified poses because that's what is working for me! this gives them the freedom to simply try their best and not worry about 'how far' or 'how well' they can 'do yoga.' because doing yoga is about being yourself, being present with your reality in that moment.
i have been in bikram classes where this aspect has been emphasized. in general, these bikram teachers were experienced in yoga before they came to bikram. many of them were trained in other styles of yoga before they recieved their bikram training. and even still, many of them teach different styles, including bikram, throughout the week. In this way, the totality of their yoga experience--on their own, in other styles, and in bikram--informs the teaching in those classes.
these bikram classes are, for me, very enjoyable. a bit hotter than i prefer, but i do love a good sauna every once in a while!  the reason is that the teachers usually recognize my practice and my areas where i'm backing off or working. they'll give applicable direction or options or assists that are subtle and 'on point' rather than sticking to a script. Perhaps these are just 'good teachers' who also teach bikram yoga. perhaps these are good bikram teachers and that's what bikram is supposed to be at it's best. i do not know.
i think bikram style has a lot to offer it's students. there are many elements of the sequence that i like, and when i apply my prefered alignment techniques (iyengar/krishnamacharya), i found the postures to be very engaging on multiple levels. |
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Expert Yogi
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| catherine - 2005-07-22 6:39 PM
I still have so much to learn that I can't begin to judge at this point.
Catherine - you wise, wise woman! Knowing how much you don't know is a sign of a real yogi  And after you practice for a while and do some more classes in different styles, you'll feel like you know even less. Join the club  |
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| I am fairly new (3 months in) to the practice (Bikram). I had knee surgery in february with a promise of running 6 weeks after the surgery. My knee did not heal as promised. I was told that I could not do any exercises other then swimming and yoga. When I heard the term "locking your knee" I gasped loudly in class and tears came to my eyes. I was corrected that I needed to pull through my quads and "lift up" through the leg. What I have found, thankfully, is that I have made my quads stonger along with my hamstrings which in turn has protected my knee. I used to hyper extend, believing this is what you had to do 
Anway, I have found this practice, for me, to be wonderful is so many ways. I have my moments though of trying to get myself to class, thus joining this forum, looking for some motivation from you guys |
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Expert Yogi
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| Welcome Elizabeth - sounds like you have a good teacher there! A lot of us hyperextend even though it isn't as visible as it is with some people. It is hard work to engage the quads properly but worth it. |
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| Agreed!!!! I cannot even begin to tell you how sore my thighs and buttox have been these past few weeks. I feel as though I am walking with 200 pound logs instead of legs... Any suggestions on how to ease the soreness? (excuse the bad spelling, not one of my virtues  ) |
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| Oh, for God's sake!
Why do you think God invented Advil?
C. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | God didn't invent Advil...weak minded humans did.
Some of us like to use natural methods... |
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| Knock yourself out.
If that person knew a natural method, don't you think that person would probably be using it? Or perhaps that person is and ... it's obviously not working?
And some people call me judgemental.
"weak-minded humans?" Tell that to someone crippled with migraines, endometriosis, rheumatoid arthritis or a lot of other conditions that so-called "natural" methods can't seem to effect.
Geeze.
As I would not bark back at a dog, I guess I'm silly to waste my time arguing with foolish people.... |
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| If it's the back of the legs that are aching, try a standing forward bend when you first get up (I use the one where you bend forward, clasp your elbows, and then hang). This seems to work for me when I've got the over-done-yoga-conditioning routine aches any way
Fee |
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Expert Yogi
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| Gooooood morning Christine!  Always nice to see your shining face.  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You know what?? For someone who claims to be such an expert in Yoga...the object is to rid your body of toxins and use natural means...such as Yoga postures can cure and get rid of headaches.
Why not direct a person to a Yoga Posture that will do just that instead of blasting them with aspirin that is only going to cover up the headache or aching pain temporarily. I say go to the root of the problem, eliminate that...cause you will have to eventually now won't you??
For persons with endometriosis and all those other things you mentioned, that are under an MD's care with no choice, of course the MD is going to use his powerful method of PILLS. There are other choices...healthier ones.
I'm not going to even touch my comment about weak minded humans....we all have to deal with that on some kind of level...it wasn't a judgement!!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-07-27 10:14 AM
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| Although I apprecaite the compliment, I've never claimed to be "an expert in yoga."
To each her own. Perhaps I should have suggested Willow Bark Tea ... from which asprin is made.
Sorry. I don't have an pretentions and frankly feel that sometimes there's a reason God gave man the ability to make certain drugs. Such as pain killers, anesthesia, antibiotics, adrenalin and antihistamines, etc.
Last time I checked, I'm entitled to that opinion and the use thereof, as are others, without being jumped on for choosing relief. There is a middle road, Cyndi.
C. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Ohhh, I am so hesitant to jump into this but feel I have to 
The space between the "all naturals" and the "anything that works" people is pretty large. I think the middle ground is probably big enough to drive a truck through - or lead and elephant if we are being that way (although they say cows produce methane gas so I'm SURE your average elephant contributes mightly to the destruction of the ozone as well....) and there is some wiggle-room for perhaps?
I cannot speak for TCM, but the naturopaths I have been to all seem to have a "pill for every ill" attitude every bit as much as my MD does. The difference is that that compound I was told to take for allergies is not regulated nearly as well as the antihistmines on the drugstore shelf, has never been tested and is a distillation of a tiny part of a plant that probably is grown in an area where native crops have been abandoned in favour of something they can sell to the west. Oh yes, it also had the same side effects. And it cost a freakin' fortune.
So I fall somewhat to the side of whatever works. For me that is unfortunately meaning I start with 6 pills a day. They keep my stomach acid from eating my esophagus away. When MD suggested prozac for PMS, I went the other way - fast! Instead of another pill every day of the month, I get a little St. John's wort and use it as needed - when chocolate isn't doing the trick And I do yoga. And it helps.
I was glad for the chemo and steroids that kept my mother alive for an extra two years. Maybe she wouldn't have had the cancer if she hadn't smoked, hadn't kept those secrets all those years, hadn't eaten meat, had practiced yoga and taken herbal everything. But she didn't. So I was glad for the nasty drugs.
It is a big, big subject and this is a complex world. It is not black and white and one size never did fit all. OK - that's it for me for now.... |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Tourist and Yoga Dancer,
I still don't get your point. Since this forum is about yoga, and bettering ourselves, and most people on this forum I am quite sure are looking for a more natural approach to healing themselves, vs.. taking pain pills. For God's sake, you have this wonderful web site promoting the Yoga asana's and yet you turn around and give advise for the opposite of what your representing.
My point is that, since there are so many alternatives to pain pills, and there are YOGA Asana's that can eleviate pain, why would we want to cover up our minor ailment, why not get rid of for good - Naturally!!
Sure, if you get to a point in your life where there is absolutely nothing you can do and you have exhausted everything, take a friggin pill. But, if its because you did Yoga for a day and your sore, get over it, get back on your mat and do some more. That's all I'm saying.
Tourist, I'm not one of those holistic people, I practice TCM. Soo, when I get a headache, I go to the source which is usually caused by excessive heat in my body caused from my liver. My TCMD doctor does his magical work with needles to stimulate that meridian, therefore, I have no more headache, and not only that, I've cleared the stagnant energy that was causing the headache to begin with. If I just took a pain pill, I would be sitting here today, 3 weeks later with a f**ing headache...no thank you!! Bikram is great too for the headache issue, but then we would have to start talking about headaches and what causes them and that could be very complicated.
Yogadancer, will you please keep those little darts inside your flower,
Ciao,
Cyndi |
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| Sorry guys but I think you're both missing the point..... the questioner can make up their own mind if they want to go natural or not, they'd just appreciate some suggestions as to what to do to reduce the aching!
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2005-07-28 9:33 AM
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Your absolutely right Fee. |
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| You're actually projecting quite a bit onto many things, including the purpose of my site.
If you were to read the FAQs or ever ask me, the reason I began that site was to facilitate a previous yoga board (which Tourist and I monitored and has since been incorporated into iVillage).
It's hard to discuss "that asana where you sit and wrap your arms around your legs and look up" whereas if someone could find a photo of the asana to which they wanted to refer, it would eliminate a lot of guesswork and potentially harmful instruction.
I have never and do not make any claims as to yoga's effectiveness as any type of cure, pain killer, or life enrichment, let alone path to enlightenment, better humanity, nor a more (somehow) pure or natural way of life. It is simply a reference site. If you found more it in, as you evidently have in what you believe yoga and those who practice asana should be, it's total projection on your part. However, if it makes you happy and somehow enriches your life? Knock your bad self out.
I'm not digging at you when I say it's very naive and in such, quite judgemental to insist that because someone practices asana, they should not avail themselves of medical advancements. Particularly acting under the assumption that people want what you desire out of a yoga practice. I happen to practice yoga simply for the fact that it brings me joy, further, simply because it feels good. And even here, becoming more basic, on a totally physical level. I don't and cannot claim mental clarity, peace, acceptance, nor even patience. And frankly, I don't care. I also happen to know quite a few people who practice for the same reasons, although few have the testicles to actually say it out loud in a yoga community.
Perhaps, which we don't know in this case, arnica and hot baths have not done the trick. This person could also be overtraining and creating miniscule muscle tears, which are causing swelling and this achy pain.
Natural does not always equal better (or safe!). It would be wonderful if it actually did!
So if something natural works for this poor soul, great. If not? Pop an advil and you'll feel better in 15 minutes.
Christine
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| as to the leg soreness, i would recommend a combination of things. First, do some self massage. massage the leg muscle. if you can get someone else to do it for you (significant other, perhaps), then i recommend having them massage your legs. Second, do a few poses throughout the day to stretch the area. a forward bend is a great idea (mentioned above), as is doing a quadricep stretch and a calf stretch. western-style stretches work, as long as the knee alignment is right (keep the knees together as you lift your heel toward your hip bone). THis should help reduce soreness.
also, drink plenty of fluids. sometimes, it's an electrolyte imbalance that causes excessive soreness--and this is particularly common after hot classes (and i don't just mean external temp adding to the heat, any class where you sweat a lot, you'll need to replenish your fluids). I recommend watermelon juice or coconut water. Both of these are excellent electrolyte replenishers. You could also use gatoraide, emergen-C, or 'smart water' brand water (which has electrolytes).
getting adequate amounts of appropriate types of fat will also be very helpful. A balance of omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids is important in cell repair. monounsaturated fat and saturated fat in appropriate amounts (think olive oil) are also great for cell repair and for circulation, which will help move the lactic acid out of the muscle.
Getting adequate rest is also important. 7-9 hours of sleep will help with muscle recovery and repair. this allows the body to integrate the muscle changes.
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as to head aches, finding the origin causes is important. generally, i don't get head aches, and when i do i use a combination of massage and aroma therapy. this seems to work well for me, as well as rest. i've never had a migraine though.
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as to the issue of western v eastern medicine--i'm all for the use of alternatives. I believe that people should explore and deeply contemplate their health choices before choosing a route. alternatives should be considered, and if they don't function, then there is no harm in using western medicine. here's the illustration:
Susun Weed, herbalist and healer, wrote about the wise woman tradition's six steps of healing.
0. Do nothing.
Weed describes this as the "vital, invisible step." She explains " This is not 'don't do anything.' You must actively do nothing." Essentially, step 0 is about taking time for yourself. iF, for example, you've got menstrual cramps, unplug your phone and your TV and go to sleep. If your cramps worsen or are accute, go to step 1. Meditation and sleeping in complete darkness are also included in this step.
1. Collect Information
Charting fertility, writing down questions and observations, talking with friends and health care pracititioners, reading books, and searching the internet are part of this step. Observation and contemplation are imperative here to determine what the problem is, what it's origins may be, as well as what possibilities are out there in regards to the problem--so that one can proceed accordingly.
2. Engage the Energy
Notice what emotions come up around the problem. Attend to your dreams, write out a conversation between the problem and you. find out what it wants. find out what you want from it.
when the process comes to the fore, take a bath and relax. try a homeopathic remedty. pick one remedey rfom step 2 and set a time limit for working with it. Weed says it's vital to set time limits for every step. If the problem worsens or are very acute, try another step 2 remedy, or go on to step 3.
step 2 can also mean simple things like giving thanks for your life, for the food and water that sustain you, for your parents and grandparents who gave you life, for your family and friends. Give thanks for your interest in your own wellness. A spirit of thankfulness--or lack of it--can make or break your day.
3. Nourish and Tonify
Feed yourself well. Replace processed, sugary, fast foods and drinks with freshly made, nutrient rich meals. Prepare herbal infusions to give yourselve high levels o fminerals and vitamins; nourish and tonify your body. participate in regular physical activity (such as yoga). grow some of your own food. go for a walk. If the problem is not better or worsens, add another aspect to step 3 or move on to step 4.
4. Sedate and Stimulate
Acupuncture, chiropractice, swedish massage and most herbal tinctures fall into this category. weed caustions that 'there is always risk of developing dependience on step 4 rememdies be arare fo the frequence, dosage and duration of your treatments--and your time limits." If the problem worsens or is not relieved within your time limit, go to step 5 a or b.
5. a. Use Supplements
In this step, Weed includes all concentrated, extracted and synthesized substances, including cof liver oil, vitamin and minteral supplements, standardised perhaps tinctures and all herbs in capsules.
5. b. Use Drugs
Over the counter and prescription drugs, as well as all hormonal medications (including progesterone creams) are included in this step.
6. Break and Enter
besudes surgery, weed includes psychotropic drugs, 'fear-inspiring language' shots and diagnostic tests as part of step 6.
Weed further explains: " when you do nothing, collect information, engage the energy, and nourissh and tonify (0-3), then funciotion and joy increase, you build health. true healing takes place in these early steps. whether your problem is chronic or acute, steps 0-3 (along with realistic expectations of the time healing takes) are worthy of your attention.
Although the impluse in our culture is to jump to step 4 or 5, each step up in creases the possbility of sever side effects. while healing can and does take place with the aid of drugs and surgery, once you get to step 5, you can damage or destroy health. drugs might get rid of the problem, but they don't address the cause or nourish the body. Drugs mask sumptoms. Even common, over the counter drugs like aspirin can injure health. In the Wide Woman Tradition, symptoms are not enemies to be destroyed, but charished messengers who encourage us to take good care of ourselves."
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the thing that i think is important about this is a methodology. It may not be necessary to get TCM to manage a simple head ache when an eye pillow and rest will do. It may be necessary to get a hysterectomy if there is no other treatment for severe uterine fibroids. But, the individual person should at least consider the stages of healing
many people in our culture automatically turn to drugs in order to solve problems without doing the first two steps at least (nothing, gather information). after doing those steps, steps 2 and 3 may not be something one wants to engage. They may want to go to step 4 (herbalist, TCM, chiropractor) or just go to step 5 (sunrider's stuff, for example, or taking advil). In my experience, people go from pain symptoms to step 5 without doing any of the pre-work. i think the self examination process is most important. and from that, an individual will make an appropriate, educated decision as to how to proceed with their health.
(the six stages of healing part was taking from Garden of Fertility by Katie Singer, using the materials from Susun Weeds "Wise Woman Herbal for the Child Bearing Year" which i just got in the mail yesterday!) |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Very interesting, zoebird! One important thing I see there is that more natural remedies take time and today's world sure does not give us much of that - western or otherwise. So people do turn to whatever is going to work fast, which is sometimes ok but often not.
If I can steer this conversation a bit away from the topic (oh! I see it already has been steered away from half locust! ) I have been thinking about vacations because many of my friends have already had theirs and I am *patiently* waiting for mine to come around on the old calendar. People are so obsessed with going somewhere and doing stuff and being more busy than they are during their work life! Everybody jokes about coming back to work for a rest, don't they?
When I was a kid people took their time off work and went to the beach in their own town. Granted, we had NO money but even the families I knew who seemed "rich" to me did not do the equivalent of a trip to Disneyland every year. Summer holidays were a time when the kids climbed trees and the parents sat in the backyard with their feet in the wading pool and had a few beers after they spent some time in the garden. Seems to me this fast culture has removed a LOT of that good stuff... 
Oh yes - and zoebird, I like your suggestions about doing poses through the day etc. to relieve aches. This may be one weakness (dare I say this????  checking my code of ethics and wording this carefully...) of the yoga systems that teach a set sequence and don't encourage home practice. When each pose is taught separately and the benefits are described, it is easier for a student to take that information with them and use it wisely in their day to day life. Yes, it does take a newer student time to assimilate this knowledge but if self-practice is encouraged, students do take it in and many start to use it right away. A lot of my students tell me they use one or two poses right from Day 1. |
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| the pace of our culture, to me, is part of the problem. everyone wants results now and fast.
i decided to do the personal training with that guy, and i explained to him that yoga is a life-long practice. if he does his yoga every day (to help with his back problem), he will see a great deal of reduced pain for the day, and after a few weeks, be basicly pain free. but if he stops, it's likely that the pain will come back. He thought that one or two yoga sessions would "do the trick!" and i said "it takes more than two weight training sessions to look like Arnold, doesn't it? and you have to work to maintain it, right? yoga is the same." now he knows he's 'in for it.' as he put it. LOL
i think that part of the reason why people are so sick is because we are culturally running ourselves ragged. Fast food, fast track on the job, working overtime, working more than one job, vacations that are taxing--these things are rough on our systems. We're not going a normal pace anymore, and because of that we're not able to care for ourselves.
Cyndi mentioned when she spoke about her cat that living in the mountains and taking that time was deeply healing. I know that this is the case. My husband and I take the time as often as possible to watch the sun set together. Sometimes, i teach during sun set, but doing this small act, engaging with nature in the process, is a deeply healing act--and it slows us down. People around us think that we're nuts!
I think this really speaks to that first step of healing. The necessity of taking time to rest (think, And on the seventh day, He rested) cannot be underestimated. The understanding that healing may take time--a few weeks, a few months, even a few years--is hard for many people to understand because 'we dont have time for that--this is faster' even though it may cause more damage than good.
This isn't to say that there isn't a time and place for western medicine--there certainly is a time and place for it. But when, where, and how long one should endure it--these are big questions. I learned a great deal while working in the oncology and pediatric oncology wards at a hospital. My job there was pastoral care support worker. I went with the other pastoral care workers to aid people emotionally during their stay. Many people, including children, decided that western medicine time was through--and many went home to die. It was a powerful expression of both life and death, the power of love as an aspect of deep healing, even if physical healing wasn't in the cards. It was life affirming on so many levels. Similarly, there were those who were hospitalized for treatment who overcame their cancers and walked out of the place filled with joy and healing--also very life affirming. I was/am blessed to work in such environments. |
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| One of the reasons I enjoy Sivananda is because I can tailor my practise to my mood / strength, so long as it includes each type of asana
Fee |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
Something really interesting here. The other day when I ran over my cat. I knew intuitively that there was no hope for my cat and that he was going to die. It was funny, because I had this self-doubt BS creep up and say, well you could jump in your car and rush this animal to the vet and pay lots of $$ for them to tell you the same thing you already know, then they would inject him with a chemical that would put him to sleep and so on.
My decision that day came when I called the vet and they were closed for a late lunch. Then I tried again, and the Doc was not available. That was my sign. So, I just did a natural thing, I let my cat die in peace, I let him experience his death all the way to the very end, naturally, connected to the earth and me and my daughter right by his side to the end. It was a very unique and natural experience all around. I'm so happy that I did not do the panic thing and rush him into a vets office to have this experience. Also, as I was sitting on my driveway, listening to the birds and the quiteness and stillness, I realized this was absolutely the best way. I hope that when I die, I'm not is some stupid hospital, take me to the earth and let me hear earth sounds when I go. Not only that, my daughter got to experience this too. She would not come near Bison due to fear. I told her that he was dying and to please come and comfort him and say goodbye. At first she would not, but then she came over during the last hour and we sat there together with him. That was so cool because I was able to turn a negative experience into a positive one. That could not have happened in a vets office. That evening we did pooja and we did a Hindu burial ceremony which was really sweet.
Then, yesterday after the burial, I went and had a 2-hour private yoga session. That is a true healing process!! No pain pills here, sure I had a friggin headache from all my crying and intensity, but I don't now. Imagine that??? |
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| contemplating death--the deaths of others and my own--is a process that i find deeply rewarding. I actually have many elements (in my living will, for example) that relates to the sort of care that i don't want if all hope for survival is lost--where i want to die and so on. basicly, things are already taken care of in that regard, and i'm only 29!
i think on the death of my october j rabbit. while i know that he will live a long while yet, he is 8 yrs old. many rabbits die at this age, and usually rabbits go quickly, and at this age, while 'dancing.' they joyously skip about and have brain hemmorages. we have changed october j's nutrition to help prevent these problems (as well as others such as cancer, eye problems, bone density problems, etc).
but, i look to that rabbit and know that death will come to him, eventually, and i will be there to witness that process. if he suffers, i think it would be best to have him euthanized--particularly if he asks for it--and i will be there for that process. I had a cat growing up--she was my best friend--and when she was put to sleep, my parents made the appointment without me and didn't tell me. I was so angry! i had promised my Tiger that when her time came, i would be there with her. My parents said that they didn't tell me because they "knew i needed to study." which was total BS, because i never studied after 5 anyway, and this was my CAT who had been my best friend for 14 years or something. Dammit! i was going to be there. Not being that brought me a great deal of grief. And here i am, 6 years later, still very angry that my parents were so stupid towards me about it.
it is so important to take the time to grieve for any loved one, and you are so lucky that you were able to have such a good experience with bison's passing. it was honorable and dignified and i think that's what our companions want in their later lives. They know that we live longer, that is our way with them. Very few outlive us (certain kinds of parrots) and for those who do, not being with their loved ones at death is very difficult. I remember a parrot who was not at his life-long friend's passing (human friend was in the hospital), and that parrot was very agitated. I spent weeks with him, talking to him about his friend and grieving with the bird. After this time, he was able to be placed with another family (he was a very old bird), and he did well until his own passing. I was there when he was euthanized, because the family always called on me when the bird was agitated. He was a wonderful creature who lived and died with great dignity.
it is amazing what the world has to offer us when we take the time to tune in and listen to the lessons. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Parrots outliving their owners. I got one of those too! Yardbird is 38 years old. I hope she doesn't out live me cause no one will be able to put up with her, she really is an a&&hole to other people, course you can't blame her for being yanked out of the rainforest by a man with a stick, |
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Half Locust and hyper extended arms
