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| I see the locked out knee issue being discussed. What about the elbows? Hyper extended elbows? In the past I have brought this up to students but it turned out to be beyond their ability to explore. I have shown maybe 100 students and maybe two have balanced there arm in function and I have not seen the structure come into balance yet. I bring this up, because I feel that half locust plays into hyper extending the elbows. In my own practice I have been aware of this and made the adjustment of intent to bring my arms into better balance. I would teach about arm balance when we raise are arms half way up ( Several postures) but it could not sink in. A hyper extended arm rotates as it hyper extends causing the neck to hold. A balanced arm uses the romboids more and does not rotate. A little different thing happens in the Half Locust. It is "supposed" to have the benefit of strengthening the upper back which the romboids is a part of. I find if a person works hard at flattening their hands onto the floor or even the wrist the elbows are doomed to hyper extend and the arm over twists. In an "ideal" (that is what this post is for???)half locust there will be a rotation of the arm but it originates from the shoulder not over focused in the elbow. The lower arm can also twist ( as in wrist) with out the elbow rotating and this feel fine if not great (very intense though). So shoulder and wrist can rotate but elbow needs to keep a straight line between the two. Anything beyond straight is either bent (thats fine) or hyper extended(bad). Sorry for the language folks. This is a complicated dynamic I am trying to express. If a person hyper extends the elbow I see the neck hold instead of the romboids strenghtening. Arm, shoulder, and neck balancing is a advanced topic primarily I feel because the upper back channels for pure cosmic energy is closed due to the battles taking over in the lower chakras for the vast majority of people on the planet. I am also finding men have a advantage at arm balance because our structure in the arms is better balanced in general than women. Talking to much! Your turn. |
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| Actually, very well described. The one thing you either neglected to mention or aren't considering is the carrying angle. This is usually greater in women, making it look like they are or cannot straighten their arms in many asanas. It's just the way it is.
I don't happen to think half shalabasana is necessarily a healthy pose. Particularly for beginners. This is no surprise, since I don't think Bikram is for beginners.
I think perhaps, though, you're looking for a modification? If this pose is forcing the hyper extension you see, have them go up on their fists until their elbows open up. Putting body weight on the elbow joint, when frequently people are too tight to extend their arms fully in the first place? GEEZE! We wouldn't ask them to do that in a forward bend, would we? Why on these delicate elbows?
Theoretically, if the arms with the elbow joint down are flat on the ground, they cannot hyper extend because there is no place for the joint to bend into the floor. This does not take into account the fullness of the biceps and lower arm development. Like knees, hyper extension is possible, even if the heels are on the floor (paschimottanasana) or standing, with something looking "straight." Your observation of the back, neck and shoulder muscles is astute, because that is exactly what is happening. It's pretty impossible to ask someone to "microbend" their elbows in this position, but this is what needs to happen. To get that, they need to be putting weight strongly into their finger PADS. Not heel of the hand, but pads. Pressure there can force a teeeeeeeeensy bend into the elbows, even with body weight on them. Try it and see. Now getting a student to hold and remember that, even in the name of joint safety and avoiding injury? Good luck with beginners.
Note that this asana, done in this hand position, also compromises the collar bone insertion into the sternum. It is possible to move those tiniest of upper ribs out of place, which can be painful and is frequenly misdiagnosed. Rolling the shoulders in like that is nah-sty. Kurmasana, when one is not open enough in the hips or upper back to do it properly, does the same thing. That's not Bikram Kurmasana, though. It's the other one.
I digress and got on a rant. Sorry! I hope this gives you some ideas.
Christine |
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| Sounds like they are going to far into the pose. Too good is no good. Have you tried having them back off thier intesity in the pose to keep the proper alignment? Perhaps these people need to lift some wieghts to strengthen the area to prevent the hyper extention. Joints should never be locked or hyperextended in to any of the asanas. Long term effects are bad. |
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| This how I queue the third part of half locust which is what I am concerned about, because of the amount of weight that is involved . "Arms underneath the body , palms facing down" Some are already in hyper extention mode and they are not doing anything yet, as in the structure its self is set in hyper extension. If you look at the inside of the elbow (funny bone) it will be sticking out past a straight line between the shoulder and wrist. Also the lateral aspect of the elbow is tight still. So you have medial part of the elbow hyperextending and the lateral aspect staying tight. Next " Legs together , bring both legs up and breath, allow the weight to flow as you breath, Work with the grounding in the front of the hips as you lengthen through the legs". This is for beginners there is more once they process this. So my concern is that for people who's structure has the elbow hyper extending, is this a good posture to do with all that weight on the arms? And as far as going to far, there is no way people that hyperextend their arms in their natural state can not go to far with all that weight, they already go to far without the posture. The forces of gravity are against them. To far in this posture would be someone trying to lift their legs high and forcefully to avoid their breath and the forearms.
Edited by innerline 2004-08-27 8:05 PM
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| As you've described, I would say no.
It's hard to get the finer points of an asana into a beginner (so why is this in Bikram's beginning series?!) so I would tend to ask them to change their hand position until they're strong enough to lift themselves off their arms. That is, if they don't crap out their lumbar spine or their top 1st and 2nd ribs first.
Once they're not so much of a beginner, you can talk to them about hands flat again, and putting weight into the pads and heel of the hand, almost a miniature cupping action to force a microbend into those sad elbows.
Essentially, if they can't get their hip bones off their hands? I wouldn't ask them to use the hands/arms/shoulders in this manner.
But that is my opinion, and why I don't teach Bikram. You've displayed a deeper-than-normal knowledge than most Bikram teachers, of the biomechanics of the arm. I think you know in your heart you shouldn't be teaching this position to these people who are potentially damaging such a fragile joint as the elbow. What's in your heart, not necessarily in the doctrine?
Christine |
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| Thanks Christine, I feel this would take a mini workshop to help people with. I feel it would rattle alot of people. I blow up or pop enough pictures for students. I have tried in the past and it was a foreign subject to most. I believe because the patterns set in the arms start happening earlier, before we walk, so it is hard to make it a object of attention when it is closer to the sense of physical self. Like asking for food, a pickup, some love when we were a baby. Closer to the head. I will point it out to specific people when I see it as a major issue. With you on the Bikram not a beginner class. One benifit though is that it does bring the addictive personalities into the yoga community. Lets just hope they have the bodies to handle the self hate that many come to play out, most do. |
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| Bringing this post back up from the past for the recent post on half locust. Kinda technical. This posture can play into the imbalances in the arms very easily.
I still teach it. I make an emphasis on activating the wrists so the elbows don't give in to the pressures of gravity. Palms facing up is a good modification, but it disables the shoulders some what. So the focus when the palms are facing up is not to lift the legs off the arms, cuase it would screw with the neck if done to extrinsically ( forcefully, not from the core), but to open the outside of the elbow ( lateral). Then when lateral elbow is open to return to palms down without collapsing into the medial aspect of the elbow. Ephasis is on the channel that the thumb makes at the base of the palm. Romboids will strenghten and the legs and hips can start to come off the arms. I still think this is not a begginer posture. Go very slow. |
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| Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram? If you read bikram beginning yoga book, listen to the instructors and your body you shouldn't get hurt, even if your elbows or knees are locked. I've been doing bikram for a year and i've never experience an injury. Also, make sure you get enough rest days in between sessions. I wouldn't do yoga for five days straight. Finally, use proper alignment, form, and remember to breathe. |
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| seandre - 2005-07-20 8:36 AM
Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram? If you read bikram beginning yoga book, listen to the instructors and your body you shouldn't get hurt, even if your elbows or knees are locked. I've been doing bikram for a year and i've never experience an injury. Also, make sure you get enough rest days in between sessions. I wouldn't do yoga for five days straight. Finally, use proper alignment, form, and remember to breathe.
I wonder what YOU mean by proper alignment and form? Kinda relative statement. Or do you mean follow what it says in the book? That would be a sad statement for me. Like, just believe in the bible and you will be OK. I wish it was that simple.
Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram?
Because their are many mis-alignment that teachers are promoting. Poor understanding of wholistic practice from teachers. Like practically no awareness (unless studied outside Bikram TT)of core dynamics. Meaning the teachers are promoting yoga be done in a parts outlook, instead of from the wholistic outlook.
Hey, we do not know what we don't know. And the more you know the more your aware of what you don't know. And the more you know the more you can see what someone else is not aware of.
seandre, you seem happy with where your at. For others it can be difficult to honor what is happening in the moment. For me as a teacher I work on finding ways that people can feel like they can work with themselves. Not ," just do it this way and you will be OK". Cause it might not work and then what do you offer people, "push through the pain" like Bikram teaches.  |
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| bikram wouldn't have such a large following if numerous students were getting hurt. You won't get hurt if you follow the directions and stop trying to develop your own technique. Form means going into and out of a posture. Alignment means how your body is align while performing the asanas. By the way, students get hurt in other yoga forms. |
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| In my opinion, this is a bunch of hoo-ha from someone who knows no differently. This is like Ashtanga practitioners saying Ashtanga is the only way and anyone who doesn't practice this form (or gets hurt) isn't doing yoga, is weak, lazy, or unable to hang. Hoo-ha.
Human bodies are different. Everyone's alignment, although in theory the same, is not. Life, injury, habit, tension, and many other factors can change what is an optimal alignment for any given human being's body.
As far as >>stop trying to develop your own technique"? So many newbies unfortunately end up in Bikram first, that they wouldn't know a technique if it bit them on the butt. They're doing what they can, often with very little (knowledgable) teacher input, and they push far too hard.
The former is hardly unique to Bikram, but to actually promote cookie-cutter yoga is just plain stupid. If a teacher were telling you this, I'd advise getting the heck outta Dodge and finding a teacher who knew his/her ears from the elbows.
(Note: You cannot use the word you're defining in the defination. Alignment means how something is lined lined up in relation to subsequent componants.)
The questions regarding elbow hyper-exension are valid and good ones. Not everyone's elbows will bend/straighten to the degree demanded by one's own body weight pressing on them. It depends on the joint, the ligaments (which do not stretch, only loosen -- BAD!!!) and the carrying angle. If you're not familiar with the latter, do a little research.
The only wrong in yoga is the risk of injury, either immediate or through repetative stress. A knowledgable teacher can spot that potential.
And Bikram obviously does have a large following, and the injuries reported are not fantasies. But neither are those in Ashtanga, Sivananda, Anusara, and so on. Blind faith, however, will cause more and more injuries than someone actually paying attention to what their body can do at any given time, and NOT trying to push it!
Seandre, get more exposure and stop taking one person's generalities as the .. Bible.
Christine
seandre - 2005-07-20 11:35 PM
bikram wouldn't have such a large following if numerous students were getting hurt. You won't get hurt if you follow the directions and stop trying to develop your own technique. Form means going into and out of a posture. Alignment means how your body is align while performing the asanas. By the way, students get hurt in other yoga forms. |
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| i think that one thing that clouds the issue is language.
when i took more than a couple bikram classes, i kept hearing the same cue over and over 'lock your knees" and 'lock out your elbows' and so on. To me, 'lock out' means 'hyperextend' as opposed to 'lifting the kneecaps and maintaining strength in the quadriceps.' i think this is one reason why people get injured.
also, people do get injured in any number of styles of yoga. it is often a combination of factors--factors that may include the method of teaching (the language a teacher uses and miscommunications therein). i know that, being experienced, there are a lot of ways of saying the same thing, but in any class, i'm going to take care of myself (i know the basic alignment from a theory standpoint). A beginner usually doesn't have this benefit.
because of the heat, and because of the encouragement to 'feel the pain' a beginner isn't likely going to feel an injury as it is occuring, and if they do, they're going to do it anyway. i wish that bikram teachers would use terms like 'discomfort' and 'work' rther than 'pain.' they are different, and the difference is important.
anyway. . . |
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| I am new here, but have been following some of these threads for a few weeks. I have been practicing yoga for several years at home (teaching myself from books and dvd's occasionally). I started Bikram classes almost a month ago because I felt the need for more instruction to avoid injury. I don't want to bash Bikram because I feel that I get some really good things out of it. But, I was hyper extending my knees (and now I'll have to watch the elbows too). I discussed it with a teacher who gave me good advice on how to lock my knees without hyper extending. I wish it had been made a bigger deal from the beginning because I have started having knee problems again and will have to take it easy until they get better - I had knee problems from running earlier this year.
I am glad I found this forum because I probably would have kept hyper extending for a while longer. I think that the information provided in these types of threads is really helpful and just wanted to say thanks. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Welcome catherine! I am glad you found someone to help you learn alignment and keep your body healthy  As Christine says, we all have misalignments and weird things that we do withour bodies and it makes a lot of sense to do what we can to correct those. Over extending a knee or twisitng a shoulder repetitively is like driving your car with poor wheel alignment - at first you don't notice it, then things get bumpy, eventually it gets really hard to drive and when you finally get it to the mechanic you find out that you have done all kinds of damage that could have been prevented if you spent that little time and money to get the wheel alignment fixed a long time ago! Good luck with your yoga and keep posting  |
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| I would gladly pay $20.00 per class taught by either YogaDancer or Innerline. Their kind of experience is worth it. (Yes, I know, this has nothing to do with the original post)
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Expert Yogi
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| Hey - what am I? Chopped liver??  OK, I don't teach Bikram...but neither does YogaDancer. She barely admits to being the fabulous multi-talented teacher she is  |
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| I meant to say YogaDancer, Innerline AND Tourist AND Bruce (especially Bruce ) |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yes! Yeah Bruce! I think we all have to get together somehow and celebrate when he grads from teacher school |
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| You won't get injured if you lock your knees the proper way. The order of the 26 asanas will prevent injuries. Remember that each asanas leads into the next. I have taken other yoga style that go from downdog into a headstand, therefore, increasing the risk of injury. Also, the postures in a bikram beginning class is very easy compared to beginning postures in other yoga styles. You're risking injury if you don't lock your knees in the standing head to knee, standing bow or the balancing stick. Tourist I think bikram have alot more experience than you. Bikram yoga sells itself. |
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| seandre: We all understand your a beleiver in Bikram. Just follow what it says and you will be fine. I am glad it works for you. Some in their experience have found it doesn't. This statement "You're risking injury if you don't lock your knees in the standing head to knee, standing bow or the balancing stick." sounds like you have alot of fear around this. Have you tried not locking your knee to see what could happen or do you just have fear of it. "Bikram yoga sells itself" you do sound like a missionary. This is the right way and if you don't you will go to hell. Your sold. I wonder if you sold your own ability to find out for yourself. |
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| No, I have lost that ability. Once you take a Bikram yoga class, you will never stop. Everything makes sense. If you don't lock your knees in the asanas I mentioned, you will injure yourself because your foundation is not properly balance. How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked? Your whole upper body, especially the hips, will not be properly aligned. There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked. How can you do the locust if your elbows are not locked? Is there anything you agree with when it comes to Bikram style of yoga? |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | seandre - 2005-07-22 4:37 PM
Once you take a Bikram yoga class, you will never stop.
Guess I'm the exception that proves your "rule" . . . I'm a Bikram certified instructor and I no longer teach or practice Bikram yoga. I have stopped.
"If you don't lock your knees in the asanas I mentioned, you will injure yourself because your foundation is not properly balance. How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked? Your whole upper body, especially the hips, will not be properly aligned. There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked."
I have frequently practiced Standing Head to Knee with a microbend in my knee. It did not lead to injury. I have also practiced Balancing Stick with the same microbend. I think that it is far easier to align your hips (which I don't think are part of the upper body) if you do slightly bend the standing knee, then work on straightening the leg.
How is there more pressure on your knee when it's not locked??  |
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| seandre: I hear you passion for Bikram's. Thats great. You have followed the practice the best you can with the info that has been given to you. I do not see any of you're confusion as something that is your fault. This subject of alignment and foundation is critical to successful practice. I will do my best I can to explain these on a forum. It is much easier if I could guide you in a class so you can feel it for yourself. Some bakground info is needed to express this clearly, so stay with me.
We have active and passive elements in our bodies. Phasic and postural muscles as an example. Postural muscles respond to how gravity flows through the body.The musle do not tire very easily. Phasic muscle are the ones we activate to make big movements. Postural muscles are deep aroung the bones and phasic are more superficial. Balance is a relative notion. Their is a movement toward greater balance, a more inclusive, wholistic; not a static perfect state. If the balance is being comprimised then the phasic muscles will HAVE TO get involved to keep the current integrity of the body intact. Balance would be the most effiecient use of the body at the time that would as much as possible evenly distribute our chi and weight through out the body. Effiecency= ease, nothing working to hard at the expense of something else. Even distribution of weight in the foot reflects this up through the rest of the body. So the foundation physically starts in the foot. So the foot is like a mirror for the rest of the body. If the knee or anything else is not working with the foundation then struggle is all thats left to feel like your doing something.
Knee over the ankle, not heel, is the alignment to even have a chance to get balance in the foot, that does not comprimise another area. Our weight is too great for the phasic muscles to handle on their own. The postural (inner) muscles need to do the work and the only way they can do it is if the knee is over the ankle. Phasic muscle supporting the postural, not the other way around, where the phasic are squeezing the life out of the inner aspect. What happens for people normally when the knee is over the ankle, in forehead to knee, is that the hip will be behind the knee. The challenge is to see if the hip can get over the knee with the knee over the ankle with out pullin from somewhere in the body. It needs to come from the core and its relationship through the foot into the core of the earth. Thats the practice. Their no quick way to force it because the "force it" shows up in the phasic muscle and phasic muscle when over emphasised can only pull from somewhere else. If in a diligent practice the core is honored then the person expands through the whole posture instead of contract one area to get a desired result.
To answer your question "How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked?". Locked normally means one is using their muscles to the point where the ligaments in the back of the knee HAVE TO get involved. Ligaments get involved like that, only when the bodies integrity is being comprimised, not a good sign. When a good balance is reached in the leg the quads would naturally on their own engage to support the inside , not squeeze it out. To answer your question, alignment is not something you do but something that you let reveal itself as something more supportive.
"There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked." Afraid your body can not handle its own weight. Alignment allows for people to be able to handle their own energy responsibly instead of pushing it out of the body.
"How can you do the locust if your elbows are not locked?" This is a sign that the pressure of gravity is to much and the elbow hyper-extends. Learning to use the arm channels (postural muscles) from the core to work with the great pressure of gravity in this posture is key. Many try to fight their way through it, dangerous.
"Is there anything you agree with when it comes to Bikram style of yoga?" Yoga postures are ancient, Bikram has his teaching of it, Much I do not agree with, but yoga is a practice not a write or wrong thing. |
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| i've also taken bikram classes and i was not 'sold' on the sequence, the heat, the teacher training (that is, the teacher with whom i practiced was a new graduate, and i wasn't impressed, but then, i'm often not impressed with most new teachers, as it takes about a year for them to gain their own voice), or the calls for allignment.
to me, the term 'lock out your knee' means that the kneecap is loose, quad not engaged, knee hyper extended--this will lead to injury on any number of levels. I know that many beginners do this version of "lock out your knee' until the teacher clarifies for them during adjustment. So, it's not exactly intuitive. I think that different language may be appropriate to describe the particular desired stance.
similarly, i didn't find the sequencing better or worse than any other sequence that i've done or made on my own. i could see how someone could be injured--in any number of ways--in any number of styles, mostly out of mindfulness. i don't think bikram's is the best way.
does bikram have more experience than me? sure. does that mean tht i, as a teacher, have nothing to offer or no capacity to be critical of other teacheres, regardless of their level of experience? certainly not.
i'm smart enough to figure out what works for me, what works for my students. I also encourage my students to find out what works for themselves, to try other styles and schools, and experiment in their home practices. I think this is really what yoga is about--rather than coming to a studio for zillions of classes. It's really about developing one's own practice within one's own experience. classes are merely a springboard to start on this grand path! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| seandre - Bikram has undoubtedly much more experience that I have - no question. And as innerline points out, yoga is yoga and Bikram teaches yoga. I teach a different style and I use different alignment cues becaue a) that is what my teacher uses and the tradition of yoga is that you teach as you have been taught and b) my teacher happens to have discovered, thorough his own practice and teaching, much of the same physiological and anatomical knowledge that innerline has so beautifully written for us. I could add c) that BKS Iyengar has significantly more experience than Bikram (although no Rolls Royces, to my knowledge) but that would be childish, perhaps.
I have no doubt that many people can benefit from Bikram yoga. I have heard amazing and wonderful stories and I believe them! I cannot do Bikram yoga because of the heat - I don't like it - and because I do not have perfectly aligned legs. If I were to lock my knees as described I would injure them. I know this because, as a beginner, I did that action and paid the price. I also know that one attempt of fixed firm, heat or not, preparatory poses or not, would very likely cripple me. I cannot sit in that pose without support let alone lie down in it. For ME - it would not be a safe practice. For others with alignment issues (and to be honest, most people have them) I advise caution. Bikram is yoga - yoga is good. For those who like it and can do it without injury, as you can, I have only the very best wishes. ENJOY! |
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Half Locust and hyper extended arms
