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pilates is special yoga?
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MrD
Posted 2005-03-01 1:31 PM (#18023 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Have you taken Pilates classes Neel?
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-01 3:20 PM (#18029 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Yes Dear MrD:

1. I was hired as the first Yoga Teacher for a big Pilates Institute in Fairfax called, Orichidpagoda. It may still exist, www.orchidpagoda.com. or .org. Except me, all others were Pilates teachers, many of them. Some of them very advanced. I did attend their classes. And, they mine.

2. Currently, there are few Pilates teachers in my Yoga Class.

3. I also watched some Pilate's videos.

4. MyYoga student, and most beautiful, ballet dancer, and a certified Pilates Teacher for Equipment, a german girl gave me private sessions on the Pilates Equipment. I also taught her Yoga Class using that equipment. I did a small video with this girl once which I have. She also taught Pilates Mat.

5. Another famous lady, name xxx, gave me private class on what is called Gyrotonics.

6. I did NOT find a single thing which I could NOT get from my previous Yoga Exercises, I mean a single one from these Pilates Classes.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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throwtoy
Posted 2005-03-01 4:34 PM (#18039 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


notice i said "SOME" and did not say "YOU", just chill, dont be so defensive. sheesh Yoga is not for everybody no matter what yoga enthusiasts say and pilates is not for everybody no matter what pilates enthusiasts say. and yes i do both. both enthusiasts should work together not against each other.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-01 5:43 PM (#18045 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Dear Throwty:
I was not offended by you, so I was not defensive at all. I only made my statements which are neutral and true. I like the way you put it. On the other hand, with all love for you, I shall say:

Yoga is for everybody, in its true form. And, Pilates is also for everybody in its true form, which is a Special Yoga Form, Yoga - spirituality!!!

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-01 6:38 PM (#18047 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Neal, I'm sorry if I misread you, and my statement about not liking the Yoga/Pilates comparison was general, not directed at just you.

As far as Yoga being all-emcompassing, that's fine, for you.  I took Yoga for years and didn't get what I got out of my first Pilates class.  I'm not looking for spirituality, I have that already through nature and Pantheism.  I came to Pilates because of a very strained lower lumbar spine that years of chiropractic, physical therapy and Yoga couldn't help.  Finally a chiropractor told me to go find a Pilates class, and I've never looked back.  That was in August 1999.  I'm 48, my back feels like it did when I was a teenager....as a matter of fact, my body looks like it did when I was a teen, before two children.  So I am a total convert to Pilates.  I do, however, practice Yoga in my home and once a week at a class in my office my company offers.  Yoga is great, but it isn't the be-all and end-all for everyone.   I'm here on this Pilates forum (yes, I know this is ultimately part of yoga.com) to share, learn and help others.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-01 9:46 PM (#18055 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Dear reinbeau and throwty (sp?):

I am glad at the recovery reinbeau received from her Pilates Class and she did not get from her Yoga Class. Now, I must correct my statement as follows:


I was not offended by you, so I was not defensive at all. I only made my statements which are neutral and true. I like the way you put it. On the other hand, with all love for you, I shall say:

Yoga is for everybody, in its true form. And, Pilates is also for everybody in its true form, which is a Special Yoga Form, Yoga - spirituality!!! And, Yoga in its true form is all encompassing and for everybody.

However, Yoga Class is not always what Yoga means in a true form or as needed for a student. Thus a particular Pilates Class which is a special form of Yoga may be actually better than a particular Yoga Class which may not be a very good Yoga Class. In other words my statment about Yoga being more efficient, encompassing, etc is still valid. But, it does not apply to particular Yoga Classes and Pilates Classes.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-02 5:43 AM (#18073 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


I was discussing this with my friend and instructor last night. Joseph Pilates studied movement, he studied boxing, dancing, he was in the circus, he worked in a hospital, and he studied Yoga. He put together his repertoire from these studies. You can call it special yoga if you want, but that isn't what it is, it's Pilates.

One of the biggest differences is hyperextension.  There is quite a bit of it in Yoga, downward facing dog is hyperextension of the shoulder girdle, upward facing dog hyperextends in the opposite direction.  There is no hyperextension in Pilates, joint stabilization is very important.  Swimming, for example, is pelvic stabilization and shoulder girdle stabilization, while moving the arms and legs (withouth rocking).  The ab series of five is done with the trunk in neutral spine, and stable, while in C-curve, moving the arms and legs in their joints. 

The point is Pilates may look somewhat like Yoga, but the principals are quite different.  Not better, just different.

Neal, you love Yoga, and that's a good thing.  Enjoy your practice.


Edited by reinbeau 2005-03-02 5:50 AM
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-02 10:24 AM (#18085 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Now, dear reinbeau. You brought up the topic again. So, I am going to comment.

Yes, I agree that Joseph Pilates had movements, dance, boxing and all that background. Wherever he got his background also had some background and so on. And, so on. Now, when he formulated his Contrology Book, he mentions 36 poses, almost all of them are Yoga Poses (let us talk about the differnece in the form later), and not forms such as dancing-boxing-etc., therefore, without any doubt Pilates is based on Yoga Exercises. Also, Yoga Exercises are much older than all these you mentioned. Thus Pilates is without any doubt a special yoga.

Now, the next point is boxing-dancing-swimming- are all used for exercises but they are not actually exercises, they are more sports and exercises by the association. Whereas Pilates and Yoga are not sports, they are exercises. And, recently, they have become little bit of Art, such as Art of Yoga by Iyengar or Partner Yoga, and Yoga-etc.

Now, coming to hyper-extensions, stabilization of joints, neutrality of body parts, all these exist in Yoga as much as they do in Pilates. In Pilates they use that subset. That means Pilates is a subset of Yoga, where as Yoga encompasses hyperextension, neutrality, stabilization, etc. Therefore, I used the term Yoga in a proper sense, not only one style such as Kundalini Yoga which is a name of one recent style.

Iyengar's book has 608 or more actual pictures of him. Dharma Mitra who lives in New York has 1000+ pictures of him in different poses. And, number of Yoga Poses have been counted to more than these, probably thousands. Again, in Yoga apart from muscular body, energy body, mind, intellect, and even the Spirtiual Existence have been completely analysed, experienced and concluded. It is NOT a path on evolution. But, it is a path of conclusion.

Lastly, it is NOT that I love yoga. I also love Pilates equally. However, similar to the fact that I have two daughters, one older and stronger, and the other one younger and weaker, I must make the statement that

There is NO comparison between Pilates and Yoga as far as the efficiency, value, composition is concerned.

And, I still say 'Pilates is a special Yoga'. And, I do that with love for both of them. I can guarantee you that if Joseph Pilates meets me, he will take up to Yoga as a next step.


Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-02 5:50 PM (#18112 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Neel, we are going to have to agree to disagree.  It's obviously very important to you to believe that Pilates is special Yoga.  Whatever.  Believe as you will.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-02 11:24 PM (#18128 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


reinbeau:

1. I do not have to believe in it. Because, I know for sure it is a Special form which means it is subset, and it is mostly based on Yoga.

2. And, the above is my answer to the original question from vinny. This answer is same as before others posted their views on it.

3. My answer to her has not caused any changes to myself upward or downwards, as my answer is sure and NOT based on belief.

4. Since, there are no questions, I shall be mute.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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MrD
Posted 2005-03-08 6:46 PM (#18517 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Neil,

Now please understand that my yoga experience is only based on what I read about or see in class, but in one respect it is quite different than yoga, in my opinion. When we do yoga "ab" work it is much more static. than Pilates. Yoga goes into a position, then holds it. Pilates almost always involves constant movement. Breathing is involved in Pilates, but takes quite a few different forms. It's always been done in my class during some exercises, but not all, and never by itself. Pilates to me just feels like exercise, where yoga at times can be much more. So isn't Pilates more different than similar to yoga?
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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-08 9:20 PM (#18533 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Mr. D, you are correct, Pilates is all about movement.  It's very different than Yoga.  I've practiced both, and do understand the difference.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-08 11:34 PM (#18542 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


This is an answer to the question by MrD.

Dear MrD: I acccept what you stated as your experience in your Pilates and/or Yoga class. However, as I wrote earlier, your Yoga Class is only one kind of Yoga Class, whereas as you yourself wrote and I know for sure, Yoga is a very vast subject. Now, Pilates as you wrote is different from Yoga only because your pilates class is different from your Yoga Class. However, all the pilates ideas at the conception of Pilates came from Yoga as you can clearly see from the original works produced on this subject. For this, please again read my previous postings. So, to state what I stated earlier in differnt words:


Pilates is a special form of yoga, because it was conceptualized as a subset of Yoga, mainly Yoga - mind. And, a particular Yoga class may be different from or even worse than a particular Yoga class.

Now, the breathhing in Pilates has the same logic. And, same with movements. In Yoga there are ways to do with movements, and there are ways to do with breathing during movements, etc. For example, if you look at Ashtanga Yoga Style, you will find that they are moving quite a lot. And, also breathing while moving.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-09 6:16 AM (#18551 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


I wonder how you'd respond, Neel, if I spent my time spreading misinformation about Yoga?  I think you'd be outraged.  You're beginning to outrage me.

Pilates is NOT a special form of Yoga.  You are not doing yourself or Yoga any favors by repeating this. 

No one is disparaging Yoga.  Please stop spreding misinformation about Pilates.
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bomberpig
Posted 2005-03-09 8:20 AM (#18556 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Guys do you realise this thread has been going since June 2004 ? Why should it even matter whether pilates is a subset of yoga or not ? Unfortunately I think Vinny's original post is a bit confusing.

Just to add my two cents worth ( having done a bit of pilates in the distant past ), the movement and breathing in pilates and astanga yoga are totally different. And there were lots of things I did in pilates that I haven't done in yoga ( 3 years on/off Iyengar, 3 months of Bikram, 18 months of Astanga ) - eg rollups, the whole abdominal sequence, not to mention the reformer.

Can't people just accept that pilates is a wonderful and safe thing for people who need injury rehab, who don't need to worry about whether they are flexible/fat/as good as the next person across the mat.

Anyway this is a pilates site not a pilates vs yoga vs whatever else site.

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kulkarnn
Posted 2005-03-09 11:18 AM (#18578 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


Since reinbeau asked a question, I must reply, as I did in the past too.

If she spreads misinformation on Yoga or whatever, the first thing I shall decide is to see whether it is worth my time to correct it. If I find it is worth, I shall correct it, without bothering whether it is reinbeau who is doing or anyone else. I do not care whether a Yoga Teacher does it or even Joseph Pilates for that matter. When, I correcc that information, I shall make statements with my logic in it. Readers have choice to or not to, Read it, Accept it, Reject it. ETC.

If the above method outrages someone, I have nothing to say. The outraged is always at a loss as the rage (anger) first hurts the person who gets angry and only optionally hurts the other, who is the subject of the anger. It means the sure loser is the angry person, and optionally the subject. In this case, I am NOT at any loss.

Now, for the last poster. I did not mean Ashtanga Breathing is same as Pilates Breathing. Ashtanga was an example given to show that there exists a movement as well as breathing. This was in response to previous post.

Let me put it in another way, if that helps. If this does not help, I shall NOT post any more on this topic:

If you look at Joseph Pilates Book on Contrology, written in 1945 or so. You shall find almost 35 out of 36 poses resemble Yoga Poses. Now, this is regardless of his all other experience such as dance, circus, swimming, whatever. And, this is NOT a coincidence. And, that is why Pilates came from Yoga. And, all the differences such as absence of mental training, spirituality, chanting, ease of movements, focus on rehab, adjusting for weak persons, etc are all matter of subset.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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HotYogi
Posted 2005-03-09 11:30 AM (#18579 - in reply to #18556)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


I think this thread has outlived its purpose. This is a Pilates forum frequented by Yoga practioners and the posts will have a yoga bias.

My wife used Rainbeau's prenatal yoga DVD during pregnancy and loved it. So I believe having practiced both disciplines she probably understands the differences better than yoga practioners.

Everybody accepts that Yoga's origins come from an ancient spiritial heritage and Hatha Yoga, the physical component, is but one branch in the vast tree of yoga. Pilates' origins are clearly recent and it was developed for restorative purposes. In terms of the importance of coordination of breath and moment, called vinyasa krama in sanskrit, it has definitely drawn inspiration from yoga.

I think Neel's strong views that Pilates is a derivative of Yoga clearly come across and Rainbeau's strong views to the contrary come across too.

So can we call this a draw and retire this thread?

Namasthe

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reinbeau
Posted 2005-03-09 7:06 PM (#18600 - in reply to #7186)
Subject: RE: pilates is special yoga?


In reply to Bomberpig, this is actually a Pilates forum hosted on Yoga.com.  Most of the posters here are knowledgable and good at sharing, and many seem very knowledgable about Pilates (for this forum's purpose) but some let ego get in the way.  It's a pity.

There are other Pilates forums, [url]=http://www.pilatesconnections.com/wforum/index.php]Pilates Connections is a good one, where discussions concentrate on Pilates and the various styles practiced. 

I guess I thought it was worth trying to mitigate Neel's erroneous insistance that Pilates is special Yoga. I don't want to cause further disruption, but I have to say this:   Just because something resembles something doesn't make it the same.  Look at the Monarch butterfly, which is poisonous, and the Viceroy, which resembles it.  If a predator eats the Monarch, it'll die.  The Viceroy benefits from the resemblence, but that's it.  While they're both butterflies, they're two different kinds.  Yoga and Pilates are forms of exercise (Yoga being much more than that, but I'm simplifying for the sake of this discussion).  But they are different exercise disciplines.

And on that note I'll leave this thread.  I know Neel has to have the last word, so let him have it.
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