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| I am currently reading Bikram's book (thanks Cyndi!) but have never taken a live Bikram class. I am very curious to know, from you Bikram experts or anyone else who knows, why so much locking of the knees? I have studied other traditions and always heard the knees should be straight but soft, i.e. not locked. Does anyone know why this is?
I'm a natural hyperextender/locker when it comes to the knees, but since I started doing yoga I pay a lot more attention to this. My feet and legs are more comfortable when I don't lock, in daily situations like wearing heels at work. One of my students was in the military, and she said they learned quickly not to lock the knees because after a period of time, it would cause them to pass out!
Obviously you would not hold a pose in a Bikram class long enough to pass out (I don't think so, anyway), so that's not a real danger. But, what is the benefit to locking vs not locking? Forgive me if I'm premature in asking this and he explains it later in the book! Perhaps I should just wait until I've read the whole thing before I ask questions! |
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| Welcome to Bikram's book. Has great tone and atmosphere but terrible pictures and tecnical knowledge. This has been hashed out over and over again in past posts. Just take a look. Your intuition is right on. Lock the knee is Bikrams biggest mistake. I feel very confident in calling it a mistake. Keep following your intuition. |
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| Here's the link to the discussion that went over this issue.
http://yoga.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17514&posts=1
The simple answer is that you should always keep a microbend in the knee, howevery the photos in his book certainly don't show this in the slightest in my opinion.
I have slightly hyperextended knees myself. The Orthopedic Doctor said it wasn't a cause of my knee problems, but when I went to the physical therapists they said if I wasn't careful to never put it all the way back during exercise that I would be seeing them a lot more.
Bikram has a FAQ and has this to say about the "Locked Knee." In standing balancing postures, it is also important to keep the standing foot straight and the standing knee pointing straight ahead. If your knee bows back (hyperextension) you should bring the weight forwards towards the toes so as to engage the quadriceps muscle ("lock the knee") and lift the kneecap upwards. This action brings the leg into one line and brings true strength to the knees.
Have you gotten his sense of humor yet?
Edited by MrD 2005-04-27 6:23 PM
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| That is an interesting thread, thank you for sending me the link. I was warned that the photos showed a lot of hyperextended knees, but was surprised at how much of the writing advises you to lock the knee, and/or push it backward until it hurts. I'm still not really clear on whether he is not expressing the instructions the way he wants to, or if he knows of some benefit to locking? Not that it matters a lot, I'm just curious. I'll try it both ways and see what happens, and I'll be careful. Lupron weakened some of my cartilage so sometimes the knees don't feel so sweet.
I do find his sense of humor engaging, I can see why people like him so much. I get the feeling he's the type of person who finds it very amusing to make the "yoga community" think he is a jerk!  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | If you search this forum, you'll find the knee question over and over again
for at least the past year. It's the most common criticism of Bikram yoga.
To my eye, Bikram's book is filled with photos of hyperextended knees...
It's easy to fall into your joints if you are flexible, letting them hold your
poses without muscular effort to support the joint. You can be effortlessly
flexible. This is bad for the ligaments around the joints, which are left
on their own to support the pose. You may even find that it is harder to
keep the muscles active, and to hold that "microbend" in the joint. Over
the long run, there's going to be less strain on the ligaments if you do. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Jean, I'm glad you got the book. I still wonder sometimes if Bikram's English is what makes people confused when it comes to this Lock the Knee issue and other issues as well. I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that alot), instead of actually locking the knee. The reason I say this is because Indian people's understanding of the English language is much different from how we understand it and know it. I know, because I'm married to one. I find this with other cultures as well. So, what if it were a language barrier and we were all just taking this too literally. Oh well, that is my thoughts about it. Although, I do not lock my knee at this present time while I'm in the standing forhead knee...perhaps one day if I keep practicing I will be able to lock my knees, who knows, then I could be a model in the Bikram's book too! If I don't, I ain't gonna sweat it and I wonder how many people actually do lock their knees..and how many do that are NOT on this forum.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-04-27 10:27 PM
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| There are a few people out there that don't believe it's bad to hyperextend the knees/elbow (e.g. Paul Griley). The rationale is that for some people that is their full range of motion. Due to the shape of their bones, their joints move past 180*. Therefore, those people supposedly don't experience the posture fully unless they are at the full range of motion. As for me, my knees don't move like that so I don't really worry about it for my own practice. As for my students, I generally try to get them to ground their feet properly which makes a huge difference in standing poses. I think that a proper foundation usually solves most problems with the knees. If I have a student that is having hyperextension "issues" then I'll instruct them to microbend. If they aren't experiencing issues, then I leave them alone and address the foundation.
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| Cyndi: It could be his English if all he did was make a book and tape. He does not correct the hyperextended knee in his class and promotes it. Showing it is not a communication thing. If people were not doing what he wanted he would correct it. Just the pictures in the book shows that this is what he wants. Your statement "I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that alot), " Is a great example of what not to do. Are you joking when you said this? I have heard that from Bikram many times too. I am glad you do not lock the knee. Cause it would be damaging to the ligaments in the back of the knee. Forget about locking the knee and work more on the balance in the foot, lengthening through the whole leg straight down into the earth. Even use of the whole leg.
I think many people are locking their knees, and wouldn't be if they were on this forum. Just a guess, but I think 85% of the bikram practitioners are hyperextending their knees. How many practitioners of Bikram are their in the world? That is alot of people screwing up the nervous system, joints, etc.
Edited by innerline 2005-04-28 1:07 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | In my opinion, pushing the knee back until it hurts (!) and holding it like rocks is far worse than locking it. I don't think that is Bikram's intention. |
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| **"I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that allot), " **
Jean, borrowing a book from someone is one thing- but when getting information about bikram yoga here it's best to listen to (any/all ) the experienced teachers and long-time hot yogis who practice under a teacher. Of course you don't do any yoga *until it hurts* and *hold it like rocks*. A book is good for supplemental research- but a wise student knows a teacher is invaluable. (and certainly worth $15.) (you are a teacher, right?)
Brian said: **Cyndi your statement...Is a great example of what not to do. Are you joking when you said this?***
As I read these ridiculous posts with their inaccurate advise and non-sense ramblings I often wonder if this is a case of passive-aggressive trolling. Unfortunately, though I think it's just overall ignorance.
Jean: There is much GOOD advise about the knees and Bikram yoga on this board- if you are really curious-go check them out.
Dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 9:31 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Here's my take on the "locked" knee. It is simply a very poor way to describe the action of the knee. You can do several different types of actions that might be considered "locking" the knee - what really matters is your definition of the term "lock."
One of the key principles of yoga asana that I have been taught is that in all poses, the prime goal (if you will - again, not a perfect term...) is to create space in the body. Pushing the knee back and jamming the kneecap into the leg is shortening the front of the leg and therefore not creating space. Simple as that. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Innerline wrote:
**"I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that allot).
Innerline,
Of course I was not serious about that statement, I did not mean for you to take that literally. I was simply using those comments as an example of the way Bikram speaks English. I have never heard him say exactly those above words in relating to the Locked Knee issue. But, I have heard him use that term "hold it like rocks". The average person has to think about that and its not your usual English language. Again, I was merely trying to point out Bikram's English expression because I deal with my husband's English expression on a daily basis and you would not believe the things I have to correct for him...it's lots of work for me trying to understand him.
Dee wrote:
Jean, borrowing a book from someone is one thing- but when getting information about bikram yoga here it's best to listen to (any/all ) the experienced teachers and long-time hot yogis who practice under a teacher. Of course you don't do any yoga *until it hurts* and *hold it like rocks*. A book is good for supplemental research- but a wise student knows a teacher is invaluable. (and certainly worth $15.) (you are a teacher, right?)
and Cyndi responds:
Just because you consider yourself an experienced teacher does not necessarily mean everyone else is wrong or not correct. I'm not a "yoga" teacher, but that does not mean I'm ignorant either and I do have some experience and insight. That statement is totally out of line and not necessary. And doing Yoga until it hurts is not necessarily all bad and I agree with Bikram to some degree about this. If I hadn't pushed the posture to some degree of hurt, I would not be able to them at all. That is BS to think that Yoga is a bed of roses and you'll never feel pain.
Dee wrote again:
As I read these ridiculous posts with their inaccurate advise and non-sense ramblings I often wonder if this is a case of passive-aggressive trolling. Unfortunately, though I think it's just overall ignorance.
and Cyndi responds again:
I'm not giving advice, I'm only sharing my thoughts and experience. Rather than call me ignorant, how come you always criticize and never offer any suggestions?? Seems to me that you are the one that likes to thrive on any negativity you can find on this board that you can bash Bikram about. Why don't you deal with your Bikram issues on your own and let us have this conversation without attacking. Everyone is entitled to have a different experience when it come to the Yoga practice, and I am entitled to mine. Just because it is different from yours does not mean ignorance and I think that you are out of line. Also, just because you are a "yoga" teacher does not make you an expert either. There are some really bad teachers out there and you could be one of them for all I know.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-04-28 10:25 AM
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| Cyndi,
I not only consider myself an experienced yoga teacher, I AM an experienced Bikram Yoga teacher. I have taught Bikram Yoga/Hot Yoga full time for 5 years.
I consider myself an EXPERT in Bikram/Hot yoga and so do others. I am actually a great Bikram yoga teacher. One of the things that makes me a great teacher is my desire to grow - to learn- and to better myself. I ask questions of those who have more experience in yoga, anatomy, Hinduism and metaphysics than I do. I take their advise under consideration as part of my constant study. So I study yoga- I do yoga- I teach yoga- I eat drink and sleep yoga. I study Hinduism and I do my sadhana. Now it IS true I am not married to an Indian person- but somehow I don't think that that makes you an expert on yoga, Hinduism-"bikram-speak" or anything else for that matter except for perhaps making chai with HONEY.
I have found your impressions on Bikram yoga are really not very helpful and are quite often inaccurate. I do think you mean well, but you don't seem know enough about Bikram Yoga to know that what you are saying and how you are practicing "Bikram yoga" would likely be labeled BS by The Man himself! (no locked knee? GASP!)
Of course I offer advise and ask questions here. I don't thrive on negativity and this is not negativity. I just call BS when I see BS.
You know what they say; if you can't take the heat...
Dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 12:06 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Whatever Dee,
Your words are so intelligent and smart. Like I said, I know I'm not completely wrong about my Yoga practice and I do have *other* gurus other than Bikram. That does not make me stupid or ignorant and it does not mean that you are higher or lower than me. These are only your opinions. As for my being married to a Hindu..your right, that does not make me an expert on Yoga or Hinduism, I never made that claim. It does however, make my connection to this practice and it does take my practice to a very deep level of understanding and level...one that you do not know or understand. My background in Yoga and the Eastern Philosophy does not just begin or stop at this lifetime and my connections to it via from past lifetimes is very strong and well remembered - that I do know and has been confirmed on many different levels for me. So, for all you know, I could have been a "Master" yogi in another life and I could have been your teacher....maybe not..do you know that 100% for sure??? Next time you start spouting these types of things, you may do well to remember that our Yoga journey is not just about this life and I take that very seriously and am not attached to only the things I've learned in this one life, I do have the capacity to take my knowledge from all my previous lives and incorporate it into this one and my future ones...This is a journey for me, not a destination. That does not make me any less of a Yogi than you just because you have 5 years ahead of teaching over me.
If you think that what I say is BS, that's okay with me, really. But, you could leave out the harsh vibe that you have towards me while your in attack mode. Why not have some respect for me as a person and who I am... like you could offer your solutions with a little bit of kindness like a nice yogini would, what kind of teacher are you?? I am always open to learn anything, but the way you present yourself, I really would not want you for my teacher. This is why as a student I do not like Yoga studios and why I do not like *some* American Yoga...this is me being honest and sincere without attacking. I would rather deal with Bikram's broken English and un-clear instructions any day than have to deal with instructors such as yourself that only criticize without having much to back up what they are criticizing about. I want to learn the asana's, I don't want to know or hear about the personal feelings that people have about Bikram - period. Even if you are just a "Hot Yoga" instructor now, you still learned something from the man...you claimed it over on the other thread how much you LOVED the Bikram series and these asana's. If it were not for him, you would not be here having this conversation.
Cyndi - who really would like to have a truce and I think we are all really on the same page here
and Dee, as my sister (Didi in Hindi) I sincerely wish you peace and blessings |
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| Good heavens, ladies! In here of all places we should respect and appreciate each others differences. I'm sure if we were all in a room together face-to-face, this would be a much different conversation.
Just to clarify, yes I am a yoga teacher. Obviously not a Bikram teacher, since I don't know jack about it! I have been reading these boards and the messages posted by Bikram teachers & practitioners, and it has piqued my interest so I wanted to know more. Since I live 2 hours away from the nearest Bikram studio, its not a matter of the class fee - its the 6-hour block of time I don't have to check it out right now. This summer I should have more free time, and might be able to spare a day to experience it in person. I thought it might be nice to read up in the meantime so I'd have a better idea what to expect, and Cyndi was kind enough to loan me her book.
To get back to the subject at hand, someone (innerline?) said something about activating the quadriceps to pull the knee up . . . I wondered if that was the "lock" position instead of pushing it way back? Or, if there was some joint benefit I don't know about to pushing the knee backwards. I don't want to rely on the book pictures, that's why I asked the experts on this forum.
For me, I really do believe that yoga should never hurt, and my classes are pretty gentle to reflect that. As I was reading (the book), I thought "I think I'll probably just keep my knees straight when I do these poses" but then I started to wonder if I might be missing something, maybe Bikramites know something about knees that I don't. Lots of people know lots of things that I don't! That's what these forums are for, right? To share and learn?
Sorry, didn't mean to start a fight! |
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| Hi Jean, I am a Bikram teacher and a Rolfer. Rolfing knowledge has influenced me far more than yoga knowledge with regards to alignment and intentions in my practice. I beleive focus on the quads misses to dynamics of balance with the standing leg postures. I like to visualize it as inner and outer balance in the leg. Like two cylinders one inside the other. The extrinsic aspect of the leg, which includes the quads, is supporting the intrinsic aspect of the leg. Over focus on quads can cause the extrinsic to over squeeze the inner part. The intinsic muscle responde mostly to gravity, they are also called postural muscles. Good balance in the foot, knee over the ankle is the beginning alignment. From this the inner part of the leg around the bones gets a chance at strengthening in an evenly way. The intention is to legthen straight down into the center of the earth through the balanced foot, throught the middle of the leg. A challenging part of the posture is to get the intention through the core of the standing hip down the leg. Over time the leg will get straight, vertical with out detracting from the balance in the foot. Usually the standing hip is behind the ankle in the beginning causing the leg not to be vertical if the person gets too forceful in getting a straight leg, which takes away from the balance in the foot (primary). The inner attribute developed in the posture is patience. No way to force the leg straight, the process unfold at its own pace.
This forum is intense. Just like the heat. Hopefully it burns all that we do not need anymore.
Edited by innerline 2005-04-28 3:47 PM
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| Jean,
when you said:
"I think I'll probably just keep my knees straight when I do these poses"
you are right on target. to push the knee back all the way, what most of us consider locked, and as asked and demoed by bikram IMHO is not good for you. I DO think B's exaggerations are sometimes misunderstood- but the photos do say allot.
as a bikram yogi I know this much about the knee locking...
it is about stretching the joint- stretching the hamstring. we walk with bent knees, we sit with bent knees...we do it all with bent knees. I believe this 'straight as heck' leg is all about taking a minute or 2 to do the opposite- to straighten. IMHO- this it's about range of motion- taking time to complete the range of motion and to pay attention to teh consequences all those repetitious movements that we all constantly and unconsciously make.
this is not how it is taught. and this is not how we are taught to teach it. it is taught as it is in the book. As a long-time doer and teacher of this "pushed back knee" I have recently had some knee issues and discussed this issue on this forum just a few weeks ago. I got some great advice and have incorporated the 'micro-bend' into my own practice and the practices of my students who have knee issues, as well as correcting those who are slamming the knee back.
For example: I find i am now giving everyone the same instruction I was giving to those whose knees would naturally hyper-extend in standing head 2 knee. "Try to keep the knee straight- the leg straight. Try not to push back all the way- or relax the leg back. Hold the legs straight, engage the quads, lift the knee--- let the bones do the work of holding you up" "if you get 'Elvis Leg' of become uncomfortable in the posture, bend the knee(s) for a moment take a break,and try again."
I did not mean to imply you were not willing to go to a bikram class because of money. I was referring to some people's tendency to only rely on their own instinct as opposed to seeking the help of a qualified teacher. to mention the $$ to you was to engage your understanding in the plight of the teacher... not to accuse you of being cheap!
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| To get back to the subject at hand, someone (innerline?) said something about activating the quadriceps to pull the knee up . . . I wondered if that was the "lock" position instead of pushing it way back?
Exactly. You can safely ignore 95% of the comments in this forum about locking the knee if you concentrate on engaging the quadricep muscles fully. |
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| Elvis Leg! I never heard it referred to that way - what a great visual!
Now that explanation makes a lot of sense to me . . . if the classes are geared toward folks who have never tried yoga before the "micro-bend" talk might not make a lot of sense. And, since most other activities involve a bent knee (sitting, even running and cycling), stretching the other direction might feel like a good idea for those folks. NOW I see!
In my classes, I try to say things like "knees straight but soft" and of course "micro-bend." For my absolute beginners I try to show the difference between hyperextending and straight. I imagine, for an experienced yogi who is well-acquainted with the knee, this might be a safer way to explore the Bikram poses.
I know it must have sounded odd, after all the times we advise students to work with a live teacher, for a live teacher to say "I want to learn Bikram from a BOOK!"  But, that is the reason - I know a live class would be best, but since I can't get to one yet I was curious to learn more right now. I didn't take it that you thought I was cheap, I just realized how silly that must have sounded!
Jean |
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| I understand. books are great keys.
I have tons of books on iyengar- ashtanga- "hatha" TONS(hundreds)! and only 2 little books on Hot yoga/Bikram Yoga. with out researching other lineages, other opinions other theories of alignment for these postures and their modifications I could never have faced as many people in the room as I have and tell them "what to do" and confidently tell them "how to do".
I am dying to study with Tony Sanchez but there's no way I can go to Mexico this year, so I rely on the video tapes my books and my independent study until I can see him in person. I wouldn't drive 2 hours to go to a "regular" bikram yoga class with out knowing more either. (perhaps not at all- the bigger issue after a Hot class: WHO is driving me HOME?) However, I WOULD drive 2 hours for a workshop or a special teacher.
Peace.
dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 4:22 PM
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| ebenjen: There are alot of other muscles in the leg. Focusing on just one set, is doing yoga in parts and not from the whole. To fully engage the quads most likely leads to the exlusion of others. Focusing on fully engaging the quadricep muscles, get peoples minds and bodies into active will. Balanced intention is a balance of passive and active will. Your statement completly misses the passive part. Sounds just like the normal Bikram teacher. Do,do, do this, do that, also some of this. To ignore something is very similiar to being in denial. And I would not call it safe. Ya, ignore what everyone has to say because I got it, its the quads, ya the quads. Sure you do. Just when you think you got it, life shows you what you missed as substance for your next enfoldment. |
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| Wisely said, Innerline.
Could you tell us some more about Rolfing. How in your opinion does it help strengthen your yoga practice and teaching?
Thanks |
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| Thanks HotYogi,
Rolfing principles stem from the effects of gravity on the body through out the whole development of our organism. The connective tissue, the most prevalent tissue in the body,is growing and adapting, according to how gravity flows or not flows in the body. It is the substance of support, structure and form. It spans from the bones to the blood and everywhere inbetween. It hold everything together in its web.
Rolfing is a form of bodywork that creates spaces in the body by manipulating the connective tisse. So that gravity flows through the body more fluidly, giving it more order and support as opposed to breaking it down along the path of entropy. Rolfing principles help in working with gravity to find a more supportive relationship with the earth. A deeper experience of our core. An expansion through the body. Basically Rolfing (Structural Integration) is a wholistic system of perception and bodywork that has gravity as it teacher. It helps present disembodied elements of our psyche and body to the core to be healed and integrated.
Same intentions as yoga with alot more effectiveness in getting into those hard to get to places or stuff left behind. Very fascinating. Compliments yoga very well. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Well, I'm smiling. Having been yelled at in this forum for "being negative"
it's pretty amusing to read all the critiques and debate up above. 
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| Your a very very BAD Guy.  |
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locked knees
