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| Do negative thoughts that pop into your mind while meditating negate the positive benefits of meditating? Although I am able to quiet my thoughts for a short time (usually about 15 minutes), it doesn't take long before irritating thoughts enter into the meditation and ultimately frustrate me. It winds up feeling like I'm trying to escape. Is this a natural progression in learning to meditate properly? Has anyone else had this experience? |
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| Dear lilyflower:
This is the question you should ask the Source of Your Meditation Learning. Experience in your meditation shall depend on the Method you shall follow. And, the question should be asked to the Source, not general public. What is the source of your meditation learning?
If it is a mixture of hodgepodge the results will be hodgepodge and confusing. If the practice is very difficult for your background, then the results will be frightening. If the practice is too below your capacity, the results will be scanty.
Meditation Questions do not have answers which are found to the questions in the gross world. For example, when apple falls down, one can answer that it is due to gravity. But, if the apple in the meditation falls down, it does NOT have the same answer for two meditators!!!
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-03-11 9:48 AM
Dear lilyflower:
This is the question you should ask the Source of Your Meditation Learning. Experience in your meditation shall depend on the Method you shall follow. And, the question should be asked to the Source, not general public. What is the source of your meditation learning?
If it is a mixture of hodgepodge the results will be hodgepodge and confusing. If the practice is very difficult for your background, then the results will be frightening. If the practice is too below your capacity, the results will be scanty.
Meditation Questions do not have answers which are found to the questions in the gross world. For example, when apple falls down, one can answer that it is due to gravity. But, if the apple in the meditation falls down, it does NOT have the same answer for two meditators!!!
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
Dear Neel,
Clearly you're right; however, sometimes a fog develops around a person that makes them feel isolated, purposeless and ultimately tormented. Meditation as a path to the center, the heart of yourself can be a frightening trek. Maybe I've answered my own question with some prompting by what you said. Maybe the block is fear itself. |
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| Dear lily:
May be is NOT an answer. It is called Guess. Guesses are NOT answers either.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-03-11 2:00 PM
Dear lily:
May be is NOT an answer. It is called Guess. Guesses are NOT answers either.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
Dear Neel,
For lack of an "absolute", the guess IS the answer...to a work in progress.
Blessings, Lily
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| Well if you are happy, I am happy. Best luck to you.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Negative thoughts are a common symptom when sitting. Not to worry. A couple of things: you're observing routine patterns of your own mind. This is stuff that's there. How do you deal with it? By not reacting to it, refraining from involvement, detachment, and equanimity.
That might be a short term solution.
Often part of the problem for beginning meditators is that they have expectations that don't happen when they sit. [ie frustration sets in when you get something other than what you want. Typical trick of the mind.]
And they don't have a guide or techniques prescribed for dealing with the stuff that does happen. Neel is right, it's best to choose a person/source to learn from, with instructions and techniques to follow.
You can start with yoga asanas and pranayama, as these are the foundation of meditation.
Really what you're trying to do in the beginning is to build sustained concentration. To start learning to still and control the body and mind, start with the basics of yoga: yama, niyama, asana, pranayama.
These prepare the ground for concentration. When you can concentrate the mind on a desired object, and eliminate distractions, meditation follows. But this is usually a long process of learning and discovery. It takes patience, courage and tenacity.
Hope this helps...
Edited by sivaram 2005-03-26 6:32 AM
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| I would have to agree with the above.
Suffering (ie neg thoughts) comes from desire (wanting meditation to be a certain way, instead of the way it is).
Good Luck |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| >>And they don't have a guide or techniques prescribed for dealing with the stuff that does happen. Neel is right, it's best to choose a person/source to learn from, with instructions and techniques to follow.
You can start with yoga asanas and pranayama, as these are the foundation of meditation.<<
We should put this at the top of every post replying to people who are trying to self-teach meditation. I just had a conversation with someone yesterday who has a friend who has been damaged mentally from going too far too fast with meditation. The nervous system must be prepared first. |
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| tourist - 2005-03-27 1:34 AM
I just had a conversation with someone yesterday who has a friend who has been damaged mentally from going too far too fast with meditation. The nervous system must be prepared first.
Tourist,
That's an interesting comment. This is one of the reasons why having a guide is so important. Can you be more descriptive about your friend's experience (as a means of cautioning others)?
Thx |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Well I'm afraid it was a friend of a friend and wasn't detailed but I believe it was described as a nervous breakdown after a long meditation retreat. Very shakey after several months, not able to work, generally a wreck. And presumably a retreat would have had some sort of leader or teacher available. |
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| hi i am sorry to hear about your friend's breakdown during meditation. I also had numerous breakdowns during my meditation retreat, and I am actually glad they happened. For too many years I was "happy" pretending everything is ok and i worked desperately to be liked and comforted by every one. One retreat and i had reality staring at my face like a bull- i had to break down and rebuild my self. Now i mostly do not throw tantrums and generally find it difficult to behave in an in authentic manner. it s not that I am some really cool perfect guru - but i am atleast on my way to becoming a more authetic person.
I wish your friend all the best and hope she is able to take all experiences as transient and only an experience- nothing more and nothing less |
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| Sprezzatura is an old Italian term, meaning "an assumed air of doing difficult things with an effortless mastery and an air of nonchalance"
Try to think of the negative thoughts "interrupting" your meditation as like big waves on the ocean. They are coming your way -- as is simply their nature. There is no way to escape. As foolhearty as it seems, the best solution -- indeed the only solution really -- is to go right through that wall of water. Now see the wave for it's components once you are within it. What do you see there? Hard to answer because the thing -- the thought wave -- has moved right past you. You made it through in one breath, without terror or harm and without engaging yourself in the drama. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| sachin - not a teary, unpleasant breakdown - a complete mental breakdown. Close to requiring hospitalization breakdown. |
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| tourist - 2005-05-04 9:19 AM
sachin - not a teary, unpleasant breakdown - a complete mental breakdown. Close to requiring hospitalization breakdown.
yikes!
i would be interested to know what kind of meditation since i booked to go to vipassana in june. can you find out glenda? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Kira - sorry I can't remember who told me the story! But I think it is essential to have a good, solid grounding in meditation, as strong asana practice (to ensure a strong, resilient nervous system) and a very good support system in place before one goes off to retreat for 10 days (or more). I know it is challenging even for mature, experienced practitioners. It is not something I would recommend for a beginner. |
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| Dear Tourist,
Retreats such as the 10 day Vipassana retreat (or any other retreat more than 5-7 days) are often a serious problem for a lot of people because it introverts (or tries) them too much, too quickly. If a begginer did an asana-pranyama retreat and practiced for 8 hours a day it would be much much worse than what an equal meditation retreat can do. Practicing too much of anything without slowly building up is dangerous. I am very sorry for your friend.
Dear lilyflower,
"Do negative thoughts that pop into your mind while meditating negate the positive benefits of meditating? Although I am able to quiet my thoughts for a short time (usually about 15 minutes), it doesn't take long before irritating thoughts enter into the meditation and ultimately frustrate me. It winds up feeling like I'm trying to escape. Is this a natural progression in learning to meditate properly? Has anyone else had this experience?"
It is close to impossible to diagnose such a situation from far away. What is your meditation technique? They are basically two options as to whether this (quiet followed by a lot of thoughts) is a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the technique. It would also be helpful to get your posture checked,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-05-06 3:08 AM
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| this is really interesting to me. one thing that i have read several times - vipassana can cure people of mental illness. hmmm.... 
does anyone have a link to some "vipassana /meditation is bad" sites? |
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| Well Vipassana is not bad for you, that would be wrong to say; in fact its very good for you as I am sure most research has shown. However, doing anything introverted for 10 days can be very difficult. For most people not talking at all for 10 days in a new place can be difficult.
I don't know about any Vipassana is bad site (except maybe what Christian fundamentalists say) but there are for instance, TM is bad sites:
http://www.trancenet.org/
http://minet.org/
As with all such sites, one has to be careful since there is a tendency to exaggerate the negative effects,
Regards. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Rishi - I agree that suddenly jumping into a full scale retreat program is not safe. It is interesting that people who would never think of starting mountaineering by climbing Everest think it is ok to start a meditation practice by doing a deep, intense retreat. It is maddening that the people running the retreats allow this to happen!  "Oh, you think you'd like to be a doctor and you have been treating all of your kid's injuries for a couple of years? Great! We'll put you into an inner-city ER for a couple of weeks in a row and see if that can get you properly started..."
North Americans think that meditation is "soft" and "gentle" and is about lighting candles and being "peaceful" (whatever the heck that is...) and going out to the country for ten days to meditate sounds like some kind of heaven. Even what I call the grunt and sweat yogis think if they can do 55 chaturangas and eka pada rajkapotasana a few days of la la land will be a breeze. The body and nervous system need to be carefully prepared through asana and pranayama and a very experienced teacher who knows the individual well will know when it is time for the student to go on retreat. Again - I think those running the retreats should take a bit more responsibility. Maybe a lot more. |
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| "Again - I think those running the retreats should take a bit more responsibility."
I agree...
Regards. |
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Meditation Frustration
