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| Hi All,
I found Bikrams book and thoroughly enjoyed it as a read. I have begun practising his 'style' of yoga.
A question (one of many):
I am taking it slow despite the instructions in the book. I started out a couple of weeks ago doing only the first four exercises and now I have come up to exercise seven. After seven I do dandasansa and cobra, and then corpse which ends my practice.
I was wondering if it is okay to do just a limited number and progress slowly as I feel more confident. Are there any negative effects of going through every exercise from day one??
Thanks,
J |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi Jah,
I remember my book saying to take it slow and learn each posture before you dive into it. I don't have my book anymore, you'll have to ask Jean when she gets it next week:~) I would say NO that you shouldn't have any negative effects by doing the asana's one at a time. But, you probably won't get the full *Bikram* benefits by not completing the series, which is okay for now because you are learning and feeling your way through. Besides, having confidence in the postures are a valuable tool and you will find that you will get better and better as you move along. Are you not comfortable going to a Bikram class?? That is really the best place to start..even if you do each asana once instead of twice. I remember my first days of just trying to do each posture at least once in the class and I didn't hold the posture as long as every one else did...ALL of that is okay and is exactly what you are suppose to do. It is when you push yourself over the limit which causes all the problems. If you were to make up a set of Hatha Yoga postures and do them incorrectly or over do them, you would wipe out! It doesn't matter whether it is Bikram's series or any series. So, continue on and if you find yourself needing to be challenged, find a teacher, a good one that will correct your alignment and walk away from the yelling and overly arrogant ones. You will know when your not doing Yoga correctly, our bodies have a simple way of telling us so much information. Good luck with your practice. I also do home practice and like it a lot. |
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| I am glad that you have found a style of yoga that you'd like!!
Though I don't practice Bikram, I say that easing into the series is pretty smart and also wise. You are listening to your body and rather than jumping into something your body may not be entirely comfortable with. In my practice, Ashtanga, that's exactly how its taught, to master a posture then move to others as your profiency, endurance, etc stengthens until you are doing the entire series.
When it comes down to it, its YOUR practice!
PS...Welcome!! |
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| Cyndi:
Ummm, yups, you are so very right. It says that in the introductory few pages. Just shows how much I was concentrating when I read it. 
There are no Bikram classes for me to attend -  - There are a few general yoga classes, but I do not know if my work schedule would allow me to attend with any regularity. With home practice, I can usually manage to spare 20 mins (7 exercises) a day. Thanks for your advice and help.
Tigr:
Thanks for the reply. I like the style, but more than that, I really like the book and the way the poses have been explained. I have seen some other books; these just didnt seem to have such complete explanations. Easing into yoga is pretty important for me. I had actually started with it a couple of years ago (2003) and did it for a month - month and a half.
This was just a series of asanas strung together in the order I saw most fit, after reading about how to structure a practice. It was pretty cool - could do all sorts of asanas - lotus, full locust, dhanurasana, urdhva dhanurasana, and a pretty decent camel, amongst others.
The thing was that I started getting this funny feeling in my left knee. It wasnt really an ache, but I suppose the best way to put it would be that I was aware of my knee whenever I walked or crouched. It wasnt a good feeling and I guess I got a bit scared and stopped, thinking that I would continue once the feeling went away. I never started again until recently.
A similar funny feeling has started again - this time in my right knee and down my right shin.
Weird,
J |
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| J - it's great that you're taking it slow, but if you are feeling odd things with your knees again be careful. I had a similar situation in the late fall. I do Bikram regularly and am pretty active otherwise - skiing, hiking, etc - and got a funny sensation right below one kneecap - I could feel a tingling like sensation and stretching in the muscles and it made me really nervous. I now do an Iyengar class a week, just to work on technique and it all went away. What I realized for me (though every body is different) is that since my hip joints are tight, my knees were taking over in any hip opening pose and I was overstretching the ligaments. It took a while for all this to show up. Even if you can't go regularly - trying to get a teacher's input might be best in the long run.... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| MariaFloresta - 2005-04-25 9:03 AM
What I realized for me (though every body is different) is that since my hip joints are tight, my knees were taking over in any hip opening pose and I was overstretching the ligaments.
Maria - You are absolutely right. Although every body is different, the principle is universal. If you have one tight joint, the next one up or down will take the strain and knees are particularly vulnerable. A lot of people run into knee troubles because of pushing through poses their bodies aren't ready for.
JAH - I can't go into all the particulars of knees right now but I bet a search of the forums on knees would bring up some good information for you. You probably injured your knee previously because of all the backbends you were doing. You MUST tuck the tailbone and rotate the thighs inward to prevent knee problems. Anyway, hope you continue to enjoy your yoga journey! |
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| tourist - 2005-04-25 11:26 PM
MariaFloresta - 2005-04-25 9:03 AM
What I realized for me (though every body is different) is that since my hip joints are tight, my knees were taking over in any hip opening pose and I was overstretching the ligaments.
Maria - You are absolutely right. Although every body is different, the principle is universal. If you have one tight joint, the next one up or down will take the strain and knees are particularly vulnerable. A lot of people run into knee troubles because of pushing through poses their bodies aren't ready for.
JAH - I can't go into all the particulars of knees right now but I bet a search of the forums on knees would bring up some good information for you. You probably injured your knee previously because of all the backbends you were doing. You MUST tuck the tailbone and rotate the thighs inward to prevent knee problems. Anyway, hope you continue to enjoy your yoga journey!
hey glenda,
would you please discuss the difference in "tucking the tail bone" and pushing hips and thighs forward with "buttocks squeezing"?
dee
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Hi Dee - well, the whole tailbone thing can be quite a discussion! But basically, the usual Iyengar line is that the buttocks move toward the heels, the thighs move back (so no popping forward of the thighs as the tailbone moves in) and there is a broadening across the tops of the backs of the thighs which allows the front thighs to roll inward. So in fact there is no squeezing of the buttocks. Geeta Iyengar says "do not criss cross the buttocks" and (I think I may have posted this elsewhere) another teacher recently described it as "the buttock folds making a gentle namaste." If the buttocks are squeezed together all those big glute muscles move in toward the sacrum and to get maximum length in the lower back (and length is what it is all about - making space, right?) they have to move away from the sacrum.
Is that the idea you were looking for? How does that jive with how you teach it?
....geeze I wish I had learned to type when I was a kid. That could have been soooo much less painful.... |
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| tourist - 2005-04-26 9:40 PM
Hi Dee - well, the whole tailbone thing can be quite a discussion! But basically, the usual Iyengar line is that the buttocks move toward the heels, the thighs move back (so no popping forward of the thighs as the tailbone moves in ) and there is a broadening across the tops of the backs of the thighs which allows the front thighs to roll inward. So in fact there is no squeezing of the buttocks. Geeta Iyengar says "do not criss cross the buttocks" and (I think I may have posted this elsewhere ) another teacher recently described it as "the buttock folds making a gentle namaste." If the buttocks are squeezed together all those big glute muscles move in toward the sacrum and to get maximum length in the lower back (and length is what it is all about - making space, right? ) they have to move away from the sacrum.
Is that the idea you were looking for? How does that jive with how you teach it?
....geeze I wish I had learned to type when I was a kid. That could have been soooo much less painful....
man oh man.
this is totally different of course because i am a Bikram trained teacher.
i have come a long way in my study of those postures he includes in his beginning class. these studies have naturally led me to transform my instructions as my understanding of asanas has transformed. back bending is a tricky one. i do stress to students *not* to drop the head back and CRUNCH the cervical spine but to instead lengthen the neck and stretch the throat up. and yes yes, i do remind yogis in every class to LIFT the chest... lengthen the spine- stretch the chest upwards---but this buttocks thing and this thigh thing has me.
* buttocks move toward the heels, the thighs move back *
i admit it sounds like a foreign language.
i tried this morning in my own practice during class to do what you said here- and i could not get past the image of my buttocks *moving* AKA DROOPING toward my heels! once i was out of that ugly place the posture was over and it was time to forward bend!
so, i intend to print your instructions and focus on this technique at home while between classes.
i recall a discussion about this in this forum with someone else and it has haunted me since. since then i have occasionally told a student to not squeeze their buttocks if they have a lower back issue, other than that though it has been a natural course of my class to encourage this buttocks squeezing and at a minimum i ask them to take the thighs forward.
my butt -squeezing logic up until now? toning. and correction of the tendency of many beginners to stick their buttocks out the back while dropping their head back during the back bend. also it feels supportive to the beginner....
after i have done it a bit more i will comment. but i am very open to all discussion in this regard, EXCEPT for *BikramWashing*. .i.e. 'teach only the dialouge'.
RE: typing: i wish i had taken typing classes in school at some point now too. i remember at the time feeling really proud of myself for figuring out a way to get out of that "requirement". i did not want to be stuck behind a desk my whole life and refused to learn--
now, everything is all about computers. sheesh, who knew? 
Peace.
dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-27 2:18 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | miss dee - 2005-04-27 2:09 PM
i have come a long way in my study of those postures he includes in his beginning class. these studies have naturally led me to transform my instructions as my understanding of asanas has transformed. back bending is a tricky one. i do stress to students *not* to drop the head back and CRUNCH the cervical spine but to instead lengthen the neck and stretch the throat up. i tried this morning in my own practice during class to do what you said here- and i could not get past the image of my buttocks *moving* AKA DROOPING toward my heels! once i was out of that ugly place the posture was over and it was time to forward bend!
This is very interesting Dee that you mention that you DO NOT teach dropping the head back. The reason I say this is because my Bikram instructor taught me the method of lengthing the neck and stretching the throat first. As a beginner, I was so confused when trying to do the backward bends. In fact, it was so frustrating because I focused on what she said and therefore had a hell of time getting into the backward bends. So, after doing Bikram for several months and being frustrated by not getting into Camel (which is my favorite and best pose now) and some of the others, I read Bikram's book and listened to his audio tape. The very moment that Bikram said drop the head back (all thoughts of trying to stretch and lengthen vanished for just a moment). I dropped my head back, then I was able to lengthen the neck and stretch my throat - automatically, and therefore I had the confidence to do the posture - and I did it like I had been doing it for years. That moment, very tiny little but most important moment in my practice literally broke my previous lack of confidence, by doing Bikram's method instead of what my Iyengar/Bikram trained teacher had tried to explain all that time. I'm not saying she was incorrect, I am just saying that there is a reason for the methods and had I not been exposed to Bikram's exact words, I would still be in a state of frustration. Regardless of what you guys say, I still think that Yoga doesn't have to be this complicated to get the alignment correct. Every time I listen to an Iyengar type instructor, my mind just goes nuts...however, when it is put in very simplist terms, I am a happy camper - I get it immediately and the rest just follows and falls into place.
P.S. I do not mean what I say out of any disrespect to anyone style of practice, this is just my experience.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-04-27 2:55 PM
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| once again with feeling:
*but i am very open to all discussion in this regard, EXCEPT for *BikramWashing*. .i.e. 'teach only the dialouge'. *
dee |
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| I think each student will respond differently to different instructions . . . you never know what verbiage will create the *right* image in the student's mind, and lead to that AHA! moment. If there is a movement I feel people are just not getting (or I don't feel confident about my own descriptions) I will try and phrase it several different ways and even change it over the course of several classes. Of course, the technique of saying something the same way over and over helps to drill it into people's heads too, so they hear your voice when they are practicing at home. 
This is unrelated to Bikram, but in Pilates last night I felt like a broken record yammering on and on about "engaging the core" (sucking in the belly, buttoning the navel to the spine, etc). I was sick of myself after 45 minutes! Then after class, the students said "Best class ever! I like all the detailed instructions!" Geez, shows what I know - if I were a student in that class, I would have wanted to slap duct tape over the teacher's mouth! 
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| This tail bone tuck and proper use of the neck are big topics. I second Cyndi's statements on teachers explaining things in a complicated way. The teachers job is to make it simple and if they can not then they really do not deeply understand.
Miss Dee: Straight Bikram dialog does lead to the thighs being pushed to far foward leading the lower spine and SI joints to be suseptable to crunch and deterioration of the joints. Thighs to far back can cause the same thing and the crunch can go higher into the middle spine. Inbetween the hip sockets and /or behind the pubic bone to me is the core of the back bend or the source of power. We do not expand by trying to pull power out of this area but by letting the power expand through the body from this area. Basically doing the posture while staying suspended inbetween the hip sockets. Any thing that makes this area unsupportive would be pushing it to much. For people with bowed legs they should try to rotate the femur bone out and for people with knock knees they should rotate their femur bones in. Rotating does not involve pushing the hips foward or back. By being inbetween the hip sockets insures that nothing else tries to take over like the lower spine or buttocks. The tail bone tuck is emphasised for people with sway back. Sway back has alot to do the attachments into the front of the pelvis into the ASIS and ISIS pulling the front of the pelvis down causing the lower spine to over arch. The tuck comes from the adductors with out the hips going foward. The sacrum is intended down from the adductors. Buttocks down to me seems a little off.
The neck in backward bends should be deemphasized because the issue is really the thorasic outlet and/or the base of the neck and/or the shoulder girdle. Just below where people think of their neck. The loops made from the collar bones, shoulder blades, T1/ C7, Manubrium, the first two set of ribs, and shoulder joint. The manubrium needs to be intended towards the ceiling from the beggining. As long as this is the main intention then neck will be fine. This gets harder to do the more the person goes back. Students crunch their cervical spine when they drop their head back without intending the manubrium( Sternum is below the manubrium) straight up from the beginning. The biggest thing for me in teaching backward bends is no straining, especially in the neck. People try to strain beyong the shoulder girdle. Many people go back to avoid the negative holding that is in the manubrium. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Whoa - innerline that is getting VERY detailed! But I think as I quickly read through that, I agree. What I was going to add for Dee is another way to look at the tailbone tuck is to lift the ASIS. Find the top front tips of the pelvis (the ASIS - I don't know how much anatomy you know. This is one that I do know due to my own lordosis issues...) and, without letting the thighs move forward, lift the ASIS up and the tailbone will tuck. A good exercise to help get in touch with all this is to stand in tadasana with your feet pointed out Charlie Chaplin style (1st position in ballet, I think) and try to tuck your tailbone. It will jam the sacrum because the glutes are moving in toward it. Then try with feet slightly apart and toed in a bit. Tons of movement, right? So it shows how the glutes have to move away from the sacrum to get that nice length in the lower back area. I have to run - interesting discussion! |
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| Funny how I rant about making it simple then go on a long explaination. When I teach I do not talk this way. I do make it simple and individually correct when a person is starting to compromise the bodies integrity. There are amazing relationships between simplicity and complexity. The deeper the core the more simple it is. Greater simplicity allows for greater complexity, diversification and differentiation. Maybe in action it is very simple but trying to explain it becomes complex due the differentiation that concepts create.
It is all connected. AUM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| innerline - you are so right. It is easy to get caught up in the details while trying to simplify  Some famous writer once wrote a long letter to a friend and concluded something to the effect of "sorry this letter is so long. I didn't have time to make it shorter." 
My mentor teacher and I were just talking last night about how to make instructions simple, to the point and still get the important points covered. She was observing me teach and was noting how I am now able to keep the class's attention better than when I first started because of condensing and clarifying instructions. One of the principles we use is to give three key points and then expand on them a bit either while they are in the pose or while doing the pose again. |
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| tourist - 2005-04-28 9:23 AM
My mentor teacher and I were just talking last night about how to make instructions simple, to the point and still get the important points covered. She was observing me teach and was noting how I am now able to keep the class's attention better than when I first started because of condensing and clarifying instructions. One of the principles we use is to give three key points and then expand on them a bit either while they are in the pose or while doing the pose again.
that's great advice about using the "rule of three" while teaching. thanks for mentioning this. i want to make a point of using this techniue while teaching "out of the box".
there's nothing like doing it again and again (teaching yoga and doing yoga) to help clarify our understanding. this is one of the things I LOVE about the Bikram series. no matter how much I do it or how many times I teach it and watch others do it; I always come away with more understanding of and more love for the asanas. it is very fulfilling as a yogi and as a yoga teacher to see others gain from our understanding and our practice. what a blessing yoga is!
Dee |
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| Very interesting discussion. One that, for me, seems to say that I need to see a professional teacher who can tell me what I am doing wrong.
The feeling got pretty weird this week. More pronounced in both knees, but I only noticed it when I was back from work and not during the work day. Didnt do any exercise last week and tried again today with the first 5 poses. Dont know when I will move back to including 6 and 7.
Heard of a teacher nearby, an arthiritis patient whose was so impressed by the effect that yoga had on her that she trained to teach yoga herself. Will see if I can get the time to go over and see her. She talked to a friend of mine and said that it was either incorrect technique or the fact that I stopped everytime I felt anything in my knees, and didnt work through the slight soreness/change.
I hope to search the forums and see what y'all have said about knees in the past.
Thanks,
J |
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