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| Within the context of Gyan Yoga, the Yoga of Wisdom Discernment, there exists a technique that is not very known in western circles of spirituality, but it is enormously significant and powerful. It is Neti Neti and it means "not this, not this", or "neither this, nor that".
It is a technique that reveals, by negating each temporary experience of perception or mind identification, that which is beneath each experience.
Here is how it works: Each time you have a perception, such as a thought, experience of the senses, feeling or emotion, you stop for a moment and you reflect by thinking in response, "I am not this thought, I am not this body sensation, I am not this emotion." You do this continuously. Of course, you have to catch each changing perception. Since perception and the levels of perception change all the time, you have to continuously alter your response. "I am not this itching of my nose, I am not this worry thought, I am not the perception of the sound of traffic", etc. You have to stay very alert.
You can practice this in sitting meditation or as you pass through the day.
This method relates to experiences that are neutral, negative or positive. It is human to look at ones's negative experiences and want to say, sure I am not this - sigh of relief - and actually it is surprisingly healing in the way of getting past pain.
However, if a person has powerful positive experiences, such as great joy, or is wealthy and famous, the mind will not be happy to practice saying, "I am not my powerful position." Since we really LOVE to identify with this stuff. So, to use this method when you are flying high... will bring enormous revelations that will take you beyond the flying high. It will simply take you beyond high and low.
This method is hugely powerful if you can stay with it. As said, it will bring to you astounding insights as you peel the onion of your existence. Copyright 2010 Andreas Mamet
www.teachingsinparis.blogspot.com
Andreas Mamet shares the Dharma on Facebook
Edited by AndreasMamet 2010-07-28 9:04 AM
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| Although I have read this concept and terminology in various sources before, I believe that it cannot be repeated too often. Thank you.
Letting go of your self image allows remarkable freedom and creativity!
As you noted, you must let go of the positive AND the negative aspects as they are just differing judgements about the same thing; the memory of experience and the resulting projected self image.
As long as we are slavishly bound to a self image that we must maintain for ourselves and for others, we can never be free.
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| What have you experienced with this practice??? | |
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| AndreasMamet - 2010-07-29 10:55 AM
What have you experienced with this practice???
Increased freedom and creativity, decreased stress and tension. The basic or fundamental more clearly in view and the exterior or superficial less important. i.e. Seeing the detail, but more within the context of the "big picture." A greater sense of both balance and quiet and a resulting feeling of increased energy. A better understanding of who I am, as opposed to who I want to project I am (to myself and/or the world).
I find that I am also less often offended or negatively impacted by what others may do or say to me, as I know that it is my imaginary self image that they have praised or insulted, not me. This helps me not try to get praise and avoid criticism as much, which is very freeing.
A better balance between being and becoming.
When I negate the words and descriptions of myself, I am left with my actual self, instead of a compilation of self imposed memories, words and imagined qualities that define and imprison.
It is the same as observing a flower without naming, memory, desire, comparing, judging or otherwise experiencing words in your head or emotions from the past about the flower, instead of just experiencing the flower itself in this unique moment in time. The words in our heads are useful tools for many things, but I try to save them for those times and tasks where they are actually useful, instead of keeping them at full volume all the time. To actually experience the flower, I must see it new and fresh, without preconceived ideas about myself or the flower.
Edited by jimg 2010-07-30 2:03 PM
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| Good. So please tell me, when you experience your actual self... how is that like? What happens? | |
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| AndreasMamet - 2010-07-30 11:46 AM
Good. So please tell me, when you experience your actual self... how is that like? What happens?
This is very difficult to put into words as it is not an intellectual experience per se.
Just as we all know what pleasure or pain feel like, it is difficult to describe to another what your own unique experience felt like, especially if you were not recording it into memory as words.
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| Well, why don't you try. | |
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| Although I could repeat to you what others have said or a verbal re-creation of my memory of an experience, it would again be repeating words in my head, not the substance of a non-verbal experience.
I already mentioned some of the tangible results that I have noticed. Any recitation of words is 'not that'. Any words in my head are "not that" and therefore any words that I could relate to you would not the the actual.
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| A verbal re-creation of your experience is fine. Start. | |
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| I gave you my answer. Why are you so aggressively pursuing that which I have already made as clear as I can is non-verbal? Once you take away the labels, there is only substance without labels! If you are unsatisfied with my answers, I am sorry, but they are my answers. I am not interested in justifying them as they are as substantial as the wind.
Since you are not any kind of authority figure to me, I do not feel obligated to take your demands or your judgement seriously, so please ignore all that I have said and continue selling whatever it is that you are trying to sell.
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| fight! fight! | |
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| He just ask queston about your truth. Why it make you angry, Jim? | |
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| Interesting exchange, Jim. Here is what I see. This Andres forced your hand into showing your truth and you finally gave it to him. Angry dude self revealed. I looked at your words several times and the close observer might think that you really evaded answering a very substantial question. Perhaps you were in some kind of trouble upholding your image as a yoga teacher who actually is selling a book under each of your posts. There you are, and many of your posts are always topping what somebody has said, so, there is the flavor of one-up-manship in your writings. There you are, the knowledgeable yoga teacher cornered into revealing the possibility, God forbid, sir, that you just might not have all the answers. You should hope to not get trapped like this too often. Now what you gonna do next, son, have another catharsis right beneath? | |
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| Hey swami, you sure one-upped me!
FYI: I do not have "all the answers". I don't even understand the questions. Do you?
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| I don't really understand the argument that's going on, although I also don't understand why you feel the need to verbally try to force someone to tell you about their experiences, I just wanted to mention that Neti Neti meditation seems similar to mindfulness meditation O.o
EDIT: Sp
Edited by Lashkor 2010-08-02 5:18 PM
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| Swami Anand Karunesh - 2010-08-01 1:58 PM
Interesting exchange, Jim. Here is what I see. This Andres forced your hand into showing your truth and you finally gave it to him. Angry dude self revealed. I looked at your words several times and the close observer might think that you really evaded answering a very substantial question. Perhaps you were in some kind of trouble upholding your image as a yoga teacher who actually is selling a book under each of your posts. There you are, and many of your posts are always topping what somebody has said, so, there is the flavor of one-up-manship in your writings. There you are, the knowledgeable yoga teacher cornered into revealing the possibility, God forbid, sir, that you just might not have all the answers. You should hope to not get trapped like this too often. Now what you gonna do next, son, have another catharsis right beneath?
Swami, here is what I see:
"Yours in the Dharma,
Andreas Mamet
(Swami Anand Karunesh)"
quote from http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=20734022015&topic=13758
I would like to venture a quess that not only is Andreas Mamet also Swami Anand Karunesh, but also Kokoro.
Your "very substantial question" was an attempt to sucker me into a word trap. Your alter-ego swami made what I suspected clear I think.
Sometimes I get angry, but I am not an angry person. Are you?
I am a yoga teacher and I teach fitness and health. As such, I have no special image to uphold. If one is trying to teach enlightenment on the other hand, one might have quite a lot to maintain.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Washington DC | Oh my God!!!! | |
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| First off, let me explain my experience with the Neti Neti Meditation
Neti Neti, meaning "Not this, Not that", the way I was taught, was to concentrate on and know a body part, like a foot, as best as you can. Feel every nuance of that foot, and then say... "If I'm without my foot, I am still I." Then move on to the lower leg... "without my lower leg, I am still I"... such and so forth. Then once you get the understanding of the body not being you, you sometimes get the feeling of being removed from your body.
The first, and only time, that I practiced the meditation, we were told to concentrate on a sound after some time of concentrating on our body parts. Then we say to ourselves, "am I hearing the sound or am I just observing the body hearing the sound"... and at that moment, I caught a fleeting glimpse of my true self. The being in me that is just there. It's as if I was observing what seemed to be my body listening to the sound... but yet... I couldn't hear it. Yet, I knew it was there... almost like existence in the purest form. I felt I was whole and complete but I was observing myself. I couldn't see my body sitting there (in the half-arsed lotus position)  , but I knew I was there... removed. But, as soon as I tried to hold on to that state, I was back in my body again and hadn't been able to reach that state since.
It was the most awe inspiring moment... it made me realize that this "earth", this sense of being, was all an illusion.
Very humbling experience.
Now secondly, this JimG guy... I believe he talks a good game, is very intelligent, but I don't believe he's experienced enlightenment using the Neti Neti technique. The wordplay stating that Neti Neti can't be explained. Bogus... it can be explained... maybe not in the truest sense, but it can be done. If a complete NOVICE (myself) can do it, then Jim just avoided a direct question with smoke and mirrors.
I'm definitely not versed in any of the Sutras, and haven't a clue about the Guru or Swamise... but in my minute amounts of dabbling I can say I've experienced "me".
Now, this isn't meant as an attack against Jim... it's just an observation. I just think that the response could have been more genuine instead of "I don't have to prove myself to you".
True enlightenment, as far as I was told, once learned, was meant to be shared and should be everyone's "Dharma". Is that not so?
Edited by sniperdoc 2010-08-05 11:59 PM
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| hey lets all go eat some cheese fries...
my treat! | |
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| sniperdoc - 2010-08-05 8:54 PM
First off, let me explain my experience with the Neti Neti Meditation
Neti Neti, meaning "Not this, Not that", the way I was taught, was to concentrate on and know a body part, like a foot, as best as you can. Feel every nuance of that foot, and then say... "If I'm without my foot, I am still I." Then move on to the lower leg... "without my lower leg, I am still I"... such and so forth. Then once you get the understanding of the body not being you, you sometimes get the feeling of being removed from your body.
The first, and only time, that I practiced the meditation, we were told to concentrate on a sound after some time of concentrating on our body parts. Then we say to ourselves, "am I hearing the sound or am I just observing the body hearing the sound"... and at that moment, I caught a fleeting glimpse of my true self. The being in me that is just there. It's as if I was observing what seemed to be my body listening to the sound... but yet... I couldn't hear it. Yet, I knew it was there... almost like existence in the purest form. I felt I was whole and complete but I was observing myself. I couldn't see my body sitting there (in the half-arsed lotus position ) , but I knew I was there... removed. But, as soon as I tried to hold on to that state, I was back in my body again and hadn't been able to reach that state since.
It was the most awe inspiring moment... it made me realize that this "earth", this sense of being, was all an illusion.
Very humbling experience.
Now secondly, this JimG guy... I believe he talks a good game, is very intelligent, but I don't believe he's experienced enlightenment using the Neti Neti technique. The wordplay stating that Neti Neti can't be explained. Bogus... it can be explained... maybe not in the truest sense, but it can be done. If a complete NOVICE (myself ) can do it, then Jim just avoided a direct question with smoke and mirrors.
I'm definitely not versed in any of the Sutras, and haven't a clue about the Guru or Swamise... but in my minute amounts of dabbling I can say I've experienced "me".
Now, this isn't meant as an attack against Jim... it's just an observation. I just think that the response could have been more genuine instead of "I don't have to prove myself to you".
True enlightenment, as far as I was told, once learned, was meant to be shared and should be everyone's "Dharma". Is that not so?
Hi Andreas,
I like your new name. I have never said nor inferred that I was "enlightened". I personally don't even believe that "enlightenment" exists other than as an idea in someone's imagination (make believe). My take is that anyone who says that they are enlightened is a fraud, but I could be wrong.
Many things cannot be explained in words, such as creativity or love or??? When you have removed the words that you use to describe yourself (or anything), you are left with yourself, as opposed to a bunch of words, memories, preconcieved ideas, projections and/or beliefs. I honestly cannot describe that feeling in words as for me it is empty of words; a non-verbal, non-intellectual experience. How another uses and what another person experiences using that technique (Neti Neti) may be quite different and I am only speaking for myself. It has been useful to me in a particular way as I've tried to communicate. Thank you (I think) for calling me intelligent. Most days I'm not sure about the accuracy of that, but I do have moments every now and then.
Namaste,
Jim
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Location: Washington DC | dhanurasana - 2010-08-06 12:32 AM
hey lets all go eat some cheese fries...
my treat!
Only cheese fries? I would like to add some salad............
What do you think? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 436
Location: Washington DC | Yes jimg, you have never said nor inferred that you are "enlightened". But you are very intelligent and honest...
Thanks
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| jimg - 2010-08-06 2:11 AM
Hi Andreas,
I like your new name. I have never said nor inferred that I was "enlightened". I personally don't even believe that "enlightenment" exists other than as an idea in someone's imagination (make believe). My take is that anyone who says that they are enlightened is a fraud, but I could be wrong.
I am curious as to why you think that I am Andreas. Would be a little childish of someone to create another account just to do... what? What would it accomplish. Be assured I'm not trying to be/imitate/usurp Andreas' name/account.
jimg - 2010-08-06 2:11 AM
Many things cannot be explained in words, such as creativity or love or??? When you have removed the words that you use to describe yourself (or anything), you are left with yourself, as opposed to a bunch of words, memories, preconcieved ideas, projections and/or beliefs. I honestly cannot describe that feeling in words as for me it is empty of words; a non-verbal, non-intellectual experience. How another uses and what another person experiences using that technique (Neti Neti) may be quite different and I am only speaking for myself. It has been useful to me in a particular way as I've tried to communicate. Thank you (I think) for calling me intelligent. Most days I'm not sure about the accuracy of that, but I do have moments every now and then.
Namaste,
Jim
I can understand not having words to explain something... but your comments just plain seemed to avoid some semblance of sharing your experience. I still have a gut feeling that you haven't experienced your true self. Which isn't meant to imply that you are worse off or a bad person for not having done so, considering over 99% of the planet has no concept of knowing their true self. I myself just caught a brief glimpse and don't even know my true self.
I'm sorry I seemed to infer by enlightenment that you have found your Buddhahood. That was not my intent. I am just guessing here, but I think that you may have done Neti Neti meditation, but have had an artificial experience, and by artificial, I mean what you may have THOUGHT was some sense of self or what you think people EXPECT you to experience.
It is always possible to at least explain some semblance of an experience, and in my short dabbling with meditation classes, I've seen most people have very similar experiences. | |
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| he (jim) did explain it in like two or three posts in some amount of detail.
additionally, there is precedent for andreas creating a new username to take potshots at jim (see swami anand karunesh).
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what are we looking for here? accounts of some sort of paramahansa yogananda experience of dissolving into white light? i'm not saying it doesn't exist, but i think that it is such an intensely personal experience that trying to recount it within the limitations of this medium would only bring one further away from understanding.
just trying to explain my experiences in meditation to my girlfriend yesterday brought me further away from the experience.
if anyone would like to give an account of experiencing their true self, i would like to formally open the floor.
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Tonmoy, you are welcome to my salad...after all of this petty bickering i need some fatty food to replenish ojas. | |
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| If Andreas has done it in the past I'd say there's some growing up to do on his part. I'm just making an observation and wanted to explain my experience which was put to words easily enough. Maybe it's because I haven't sat down to re-experience the moment etc. But then expectations will probably ruin that for me ;)  | |
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| Sniperdoc, please excuse my mistaking you as Andreas.
I don't think that there is a "true" self or artificial self or whatever. There is only your current perception of yourself. You can call it anything that you want. Whatever you call it, it is again "not that".
You can view yourself or project yourself in many ways, all of which are equally "true" because that is what you currently believe and that is what "truth" is, at least to you; any other "truth" does not exist at that moment. Other people have their own unique "truths" although we usually have culturally generated common truths and are therefore able to communicate to some degree. When people have "truths" that are far enough out of the norm for their time and place, they are usually considered mentally ill, a visionary, crazy, a witch, a saint or whatever and either worshipped, killed or locked up.
Your "true" self is just another self generated projection.
By removing layers of self image,
like: my mother said I was lazy, my teacher said I was stupid, my girlfriend said I was handsome, my boss says I am a hard worker, I like to think of myself as caring and compassionate, I want to view myself as an enlightened yogi, I am smart, I am fat, I am a good person etc etc etc,
you become more aware of what is happening in the present moment as opposed to what memories of external and internal projected images you hold on to and try to squeeze the present into. You then become more aware of what is actually happening now, without all the filtering, coloring and bias of these obsolete layers of self image. You also have a lot more energy as it is a lot of work trying to uphold that self image to yourself and the world.
Only then, when you are not trying to re-create the present in your lifetime of accumulated self images can you experience something new. I don't think that transformation can come out of the old, out of memory. I think that it is a result of the new that comes from seeing in a fresh and new way, as in ongoing re-birth. I think that heaven and hell as well as reincarnation exist in this life, not in some imaginary after-life. I think that we make this life heaven or hell and we have the ability to let our old self die and be re-born (psychologically, not mentally or physically) every day.
Please excuse my rambling.
Edited by jimg 2010-08-06 8:18 PM
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| By being re-born or reincarnated, I do not mean giving yourself a new name or identity, either in the real or the virtual world.
This is not a further level of make believe, but rather a reduction of make believe.
I am not against make believe. Without it we would have no art, music, dance, theater, stories, poetry, myths or religion. I am only saying that it is important to distinguish between what is make believe and what is not; what is symbolic reality and what is actual reality; what is a poetic representation and what is the actual thing.
If we are not honest with ourselves at this level, honesty with others is probably impossible.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Washington DC | dhanurasana - 2010-08-06 7:04 PM
Tonmoy, you are welcome to my salad...after all of this petty bickering i need some fatty food to replenish ojas.
Really? I will come...
Thanks.. | |
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| Dear SniperDoc,
I truly appreciate the sincerity of your statements. I want to say that indeed I created new accounts, it was simply because I could for some reason not access my AndreasMamet account, no matter how hard I tried, and then I really enjoyed the forced circumstance. I will create perhaps 5 more new names, if that is what it takes to expose the tremendous separation and competition that is going on on this site, all in the name of Yoga, being a Yoga teacher, etc.
I find that especially the new generation of Yoga teachers is severely severed from the world of meditation and really does not have the basic experiences of meditation in their lives. That is profoundly sad, but now we have a teacher who has a diploma from some 8 week Ashtanga course and ready to show the world what yoga is. Again, a sad state of affaris.
Again, I appreciate your in-depth authentic sharing, your courage to speak about the truth of your situation in all its implications, a true breath of fresh air. And to you, to you only, I say, that if you find yourself offended by my using the Swami Id (which is actually the name given to me 34 years ago, please accept my apologies, For me it was just a public joke, a tool to get a deeper message across. For the rest, expect 12 more IDs coming up.
I am also operating, no matter under which ID, under the following assumption: I can subject any statement to a simple test: I can ask myself, on a scale from 1 to 10 how truthful is this? Then I can ask again, on the same scale, how comfortable is this to hear? And then again, how relevant is this for me?
I apply this a lot and it works wonderfully for me. | |
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| @Swami:
Call yourself Buddha, it matters not to me since those are just words. 
@Jim:
As far as Neti Neti, I thought that Neti Neti is just the "instruction" or "path" to attain higher states of being or self realization.
I have to totally disagree with your statement:
"Your "true" self is just another self generated projection."
If I recall there are several levels of the "spirit" realms. We have the physical, the ethereal, a few others and then the "one" and last layer... or realization of being one with God, Self, Buddha, Allah, etc whatever you prefer.
I'm not sure what I experienced. The way it FELT to me was like true understanding that the physical existence is not my true self. That there is more to this existence than me being "some guy".
Now I do understand that the Ethereal realm is still a projection of how we perceive ourselves. But, if we understand that concept, then we can actually affect changes in the physical realm by making changes in ourselves and our surroundings within the Ethereal realm. Those would probably have to be done when we attain a higher level of Neti Neti experience and we understand that what we see in the Ethereal plane is not real either.
I believe that once we accept and understand that we are ALL one, that we ARE "God", and that we feel nothing but joy and love and acceptance, that we have attained the highest level.
Neti Neti is truly a wonderful tool to reach those higher levels of enlightenment and once I have the proper mindset, I will look further into this as I'm sure it would really help me experience my Taijiquan practice on a whole other level.
Edited by sniperdoc 2010-08-11 11:11 AM
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| sniperdoc - 2010-08-11 8:03 AM
I have to totally disagree with your statement:
"Your "true" self is just another self generated projection."
Now I do understand that the Ethereal realm is still a projection of how we perceive ourselves.
Edited by jimg 2010-08-12 12:29 PM
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| TRUE SELF... there is no projection... it is just you. When you're in the Ethereal Plane or in the Astral Plane... what you're experiencing as YOU is still your own perception of you. i.e. your karmic perception of yourself.
E.g. In the physical plane, now... today, you are missing your arm, in the ethereal plane you would see yourself without an arm because in a past life experience you were a warrior and had your arm chopped off. Yet once you come to find your true self, the one-ness with "God" (I use the term God lightly, because quite frankly I'm not a believer in a God) you'll find that an "arm" is just a projection, it's just a concept that is immaterial.
This is where we get into the concept of The Secret or Creating and Manifesting. What you want in real life, think about it and meditate on it and if you can materialize it in the Astral plane, it'll happen on the physical plane. Granted, you won't magically regrow an arm when you start visualizing yourself as whole and complete on the Astral plane, but you might just get a sensation or feeling like your arm is there... as if you could use thin air to pick up a glass of water. Heck... even the concept of planes themselves is a physical limitation placed upon ourselves by our spirits. All a part of the process of reincarnation.
I think once we as humanity understand that what we're experiencing in the physical sense is just... immaterial... that we could travel to a whole another galaxy in a split second by just thinking about it... that the need to breathe is really just a self-imposed limitation... and that things such as greed, want, hate, or any negativity is just plain illogical... That will be the day mankind is mature.
If you really and truly experienced your True Self... there is no longer the concept of I... because you are one... one with every spirit, one with "God", with existence. There supposedly is joy, love and welcome.
Can I verify this... no. This was only taught to me by my Hypnotherapist who uses a lot of Indian philosophies in his practice. For my wife and myself, I didn't really see the 410 hour hypnotherapy course as a hypnotherapist course. For me... it was purely an awakening to another way of existing.
But... I digress the discussion from the concept of Neti Neti. Essentially, Neti Neti can get an individual to the root of existence or the root of self. If you regularly practice Neti Neti meditation and you've reached a point where "I am not this, I am not that" doesn't apply anymore, then you should share your experience
Despite what some may claim... any experience can be put to words in one way or another... 
Edited by sniperdoc 2010-08-25 4:50 PM
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Location: USA | AndreasMamet - 2010-07-28 9:03 AM
Here is how it works: Each time you have a perception, such as a thought, experience of the senses, feeling or emotion, you stop for a moment and you reflect by thinking in response, "I am not this thought, I am not this body sensation, I am not this emotion." You do this continuously. Of course, you have to catch each changing perception. Since perception and the levels of perception change all the time, you have to continuously alter your response. "I am not this itching of my nose, I am not this worry thought, I am not the perception of the sound of traffic", etc. You have to stay very alert.
You can practice this in sitting meditation or as you pass through the day.
This method relates to experiences that are neutral, negative or positive. It is human to look at ones's negative experiences and want to say, sure I am not this - sigh of relief - and actually it is surprisingly healing in the way of getting past pain.
However, if a person has powerful positive experiences, such as great joy, or is wealthy and famous, the mind will not be happy to practice saying, "I am not my powerful position." Since we really LOVE to identify with this stuff. So, to use this method when you are flying high... will bring enormous revelations that will take you beyond the flying high. It will simply take you beyond high and low.
This method is hugely powerful if you can stay with it. As said, it will bring to you astounding insights as you peel the onion of your existence.
In a distant kind of way, this, to me is similar to the other Law of Relativity (although it may be related to Einsteins in some way), where nothing in life is good or bad. What makes things good or bad is what we choose to compare them to. For example, $100,000 annual income is small if you choose to compare it to someone who makes $10Million per year, however you're doing incredible if you're comparing it to someone who makes minimum wage.
What is the benefit to detaching yourself from good emotions? The Law of Attraction says that if you feel good, you attract more feeling good, so why would we want to detach ourselves from the good emotions and experiences?
If someone continues to peel the onion of your existence, what are they likely to find?
Please don't mistake my tone as aggressive, I'm just honestly curious, as this is an interesting concept and exercise to me. | |
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Neti Neti