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| What the hell? He said he was in Palm Desert for 4 years, now this? Plus, the dates he had given have been moved up? The cost is still outrageous and he expects people to take 9 weeks off work, pay him 10,000 for a job that pays $50 a class, and oh, we can't wear green? What kind of a man is this? | |
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| obviously some sort of genius
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| No one is forcing you, or anyone else to go. | |
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| Haha... yea, I'm not crazy about the new location, either. I liked Palm Springs a lot. But we knew all along that those dates on the website weren't final, and there were rumors that this was coming for quite a while... Bikram was talking about moving to Vegas the entire time they were at Palm Springs. (He hated the food there. Apparently the main reason for moving to Vegas is the buffets? And he thinks it'll be fun?)
I'm not expecting Vegas to last. What they REALLY need (and WANT) is a permanent, INDEPENDENT location that's not just part of a hotel. I know that is still Bikram's dream. They should get on that! This nomadic teacher training business really is getting tough for everyone involved, the trainees AND the staff.
But everything else is the same as it's been for years, concerning prices, pay, etc. What's got you all worked up, veggie? Were you thinking about going? | |
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| I'm absolutely horrified it's moved to Las Vegas. And I'm already enrolled, quit my job and fully committed. I disagree with you Juliana on one thing- the dates WERE confirmed shortly and then went back to being unconfirmed. The whole time I have heard nothing from the school- they cashed my check, sent me the dialogue and that was it. No announcement when the dates moved 6 weeks and became confirmed, nothing when they became unconfirmed again, and nothing this week about the new dates and location. I've never been to Las Vegas but I'm already seriously worried about access to grocery stores and the total lack of access to... anything. Searches on the web reveal that the only things the Hilton is close to are the monorail that will take you to other hotels on the strip (only 10$ for a day pass!) and the airport. There is a grocery store about a mile away but it doesn't look very pedestrian friendly around there. The hotel looks like a drag and Las Vegas... yuck.
They definitely need a permanent independent location (with kitchenettes in the lodging for students!). Why don't they get on that?
I also want to know what happened with the Palm Springs and the much touted 4 year contract? How did they get out of that? | |
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| veggiepose - 2009-07-23 3:34 PM
and oh, we can't wear green? What kind of a man is this?
Methinks Bikram likes "GREEN" very much indeed...! | |
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| Yea, I know hon.... that sucks. Vegas is weird. You guys will survive, though... I know at the last training, they organized shuttles and carpools all the time to get people to Trader Joe's and health food stores and stuff like that... they won't let you starve. There are really good people on the staff. And you know, Palm Springs was in the middle of nowhere, too! And hardly pedestrian friendly, since it was 110 degrees in the shade by 8am. You couldn't walk there, either. Theoretically (hopefully?), you guys will spend so much time in your yoga bubble anyways that you'll hardly even notice your surroundings. Same cool teachers, same staff, same visiting instructors, same trainees, same yoga. And it sounds like they plan to feed you REALLY nicely this time! (Finding silver lining... cuz I feel bad for gloating earlier!!)
I must have missed that one brief shining moment when there were "permanent" dates.
It's not malice, it's just... disorganization. :-/ Sometimes, they look the same.
I think Bikram was able to break the contract by saying that the hotel didn't hold up their end of the bargain... i.e. he was promised a real yoga room and buffet meals, and instead he got a tent and some fairly crummy little bag lunches. I was so stoked that they were gonna be in Palm Springs for 4 years... but there were multiple year contracts in Acapulco and Hawaii, too... so I can't say I'm shocked. Can't wait to see how long THIS one lasts! | |
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| i think that if one is charging $10k per person and has 300 people in the training (lets just say), then one is bringing in $3mil for the training. assume that 1/3 of that goes away in taxes and expenses, and you have a $2m difference. do that twice, and you have more than enough money to buy an existing retreat center or camp, or you can buy a piece of land somewhere and build the camp of your dreams.
i mean, if the man can build studios, build a fleet of cars, build hospitals in india, surely he can build a training center anywhere in the world?
i dunno. it's like he's not thinking. | |
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| well, I meant to put in my last post that I'm sure there were problems with the other locations too- it's not like we will be unique in trying to survive 9 weeks in a big hotel!
zoebird- yeah, exactly
juliana- as always I appreciate your positive spin on things and will take it on! | |
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| No one is forcing you, or anyone else to go. Gee, talk about missing the point. Some of us actually want to teach because we know what the yoga has done in our lives and we want to share it with others. That is why we are willing to make the sacrifices of cost and time, but you saw the post about the person who had the dates firm, then didn't, then quit her job and heard nothing from HQ, eventhough they took her money. It's called respect. It appears Bikram has no respect for other people. He continually says one thing then does another. Continually. Not very yogic, or basically decent for that matter. | |
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| Does the 10k include room and board? | |
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| lockdaknee - 2009-07-24 1:40 PM
Does the 10k include room and board?
Yes, and food. It's about 6k tuition, and 4k from room, board, and meals. | |
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| I was more responding to the following points: the cost is outrageous, the training is too long at nine weeks, and the payoff is too little at $50/class, and he doesn't like green.
Given the number of people who keep going to training, it seems to me that the cost is certainly less than outrageous. If anything, as crowded as the TT's are getting, it seems to me that it probably costs too little.
The time commitment is steeper than some other training programs, but as I understand it, it's nothing compared to getting certified in Iyengar. Given that the nine weeks may just barely make teachers competent to lead a class, I don't think its too much either. And again, the fact that so many are eager to do it belies the idea that this sacrifice is outrageous.
Fifty dollars a class isn't much. But the flexibility of the lifestyle is very appealing to many people. And for someone willing to put in the time, its possible to make an OK living from teaching. And as a job, its a hell of a lot more satisfying than many, many other jobs I could think of (including my own).
As for the green thing -- I agree its weird, but so what?
I totally agree that changing dates after people have paid and rearranged their schedules is bad form. I would expect Bikram to make some amends for doing that. I haven't seen the contract, so I have no idea what his actual obligations are. But I agree that it really sucks for people who have already shifted around their commitments. | |
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| If you want to be a Bikram teacher the path leads right thru the teacher training. So it's up to you if the costs, the time and the craziness of it all are worth it. | |
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| It doesn't seem like too bad a deal. Appx $133 a day. Plus free Bollywood movies. | |
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| There's more than one Bollywood movie? They all look and sound alike to me. | |
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| Plus it should be noted that hotel is the same hotel where Elvis staged his momentous comeback 40 years ago. | |
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| While I can agree that vegas is an armpit of a city, it can be very fun. It is also MUCH cheaper to fly into vegas then palm springs, facilities ARE actually much better and the hotels are set up to hold convensions that are huge. The thing that will suck is buying water, Fashion mall is pretty close with duty free type shop in it.
I am more curious to see how the new franchise will affect TT enrollment. To my understanding, if you attend training from now on you MUST be a yoga college of india. I'm not 100% sure about that and I will check will Rajashree as she is teaching in SF today.
As to permanent tt place. Bikram has had several places that he has tried to do it. He always changes his mind last minute and pulls out of the deal. In Hawaii, he had a place, in Half Moon bay and some where else, but I can't remember at this time. | |
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| he Brian, I don't understand a couple of things in your post- why do we have to buy water? And what do you mean that from now on you must be a yoga college of india? I know they are starting with the franchise thing, but the tt requires already that you be studying with a legit bikram studio. | |
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| Elvis?! Yea!!
Free Bollywood movies - HA. I think it IS only one that's on an INFINITE LOOP. And don't forget about Mahabarat!! (nicole - if you don't know about this movie yet... you will find out....)
Great points by Brian about airlines and facilities. That is DEFINITELY true about airfare; coming from the east coast, it's like half the price compared to flying into Palm Springs or even LAX.
I was at the 3 hour long lecture/Q and A session when they first unveiled the franchise plan a few weeks ago, and from everything that was discussed there, it didn't look like the franchise would have any effect on teacher trainings. Basically the only operational change is that it will cost a little more to own a studio, and studios will have franchise agreements in place of the previous affiliation agreements. I can see that the franchise will have an effect on people's decisions to open studios, since it changes the finances a bit, but it won't change anything for the people who just want to go and teach.
Of course, if Raj told Brian something different, I may eat my words. But that's what I got from Bikram and his lawyer dudes... | |
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| the mahabarat is actually a nice piece of indian cinema indeed. ryan calls it "real time india history" because of the pace. we also like, btw, the "real time korean history" television series that they play on one of our local PBS stations.
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| Raj had no idea about the details of the franchise. According to the website, it looks like Bikram will be slowly phasing out non franchised bikram approved studios. So in the future, you want Bikram yoga, it will be only at a Yoga College of India eventually. Whether he will hand out more cease and desists really I believe will be on case by case basis.
As to the Water, looks like the hotel will be providing water as part of TT cost. WATER is Hella expensive in Vegas. | |
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| you buy water in Vegas because the tap water is awful. I mostly avoid bottled water but even I drink it there.
If you buy water you definitely want to get it someplace like a grocery or even convenience store, not in the hotels. | |
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| "Slowly phasing out" - well, sort of. Their stated goal (in an ideal world) is for all existing Bikram studios to immediately convert to franchises. That's why they are offering NO franchise fee AND no royalties for a year to existing studios that sign on within the first 60 days. They want everyone to come on board right away.
For studios that choose not to sign on, I understand that they will be able to continue operations legally until their affiliation agreements expire, but affiliation agreements will no longer be given or renewed, so I guess they will eventually die out. And you're right, Brian, that probably a slow phase-out on a case by case basis. But hopefully those will be the exceptions, not the rule. | |
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| The hotel will be providing free (well, INCLUDED) BOTTLED water?!
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| sigh. I'm trying to put a good face on this but all I can see/think: no balonies, so drying laundry is going to be almost impossible. No grocery stores within a mile of the hotel. Big hotel that is going to take a long time to navigate to and from class/lectures/etc. Water that needs to be bought (I seriously doubt the hotel is providing bottled water at the kind of volume we will need it!). And now it just got a lot more expensive to start AND run a studio. great. | |
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| OK, I will try to turn your complaints around! 1. There is a 24-hour laundromat 1 mile away. 2. There's a Trader Joe's 5 miles away and a Whole Foods on the strip 6 miles away. At the last training there were shuttles on the weekends, and I'm sure some nice locals at training will have cars and compassion! 3. They are building a temporary hot room just like at the previous training but it will be on the pool deck (I think that's the 3rd floor), so unlike the last training the navigation will be much shorter and more efficient (no need to walk presentably through the lobby!). 4. Trader Joe's delivers (water)(and food) -- you can stock up and not have to carry it! 5. YOU'LL COME OUT A TEACHER! 
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Eh. It was bound to happen. Obviously, Bikram had no idea how successful it would be when he started this. So many critics of Bikram think it's already a franchise. At least this way, now they'll be right. They'll be wrong in other ways, of course. I think Bikram's methods work, not for all, but they work. And, his main intent is to follow his guru's initial instruction of bringing Yoga to the west. Again, his detractors will never seen that. But who cares?
I'll be curious to see how many studios might simply drop the name. If they're established, it really might not matter. It might even help. They can offer different classes and styles easier. | |
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| You know, I think it's kind of funny that Bikram is getting so much crap for finally franchising. After all Corepower yoga, Yoga Works and Sunstone yoga are all franchises. Each of them have nearly 20 studios under their wing. Sunstone has a copyrighted and trademarked yoga system and Corepower Yoga even is doing a "hot yoga" training of the 26 poses. No one is giving them hell.
I mean, I know that Bikram can be very..... straight about his yoga, but he DID kind of start the Hot Yoga thing. Doesn't he deserve to gain benefit of nearly 50 years of work?
If you don't like his rules, then do another yoga, there are tons of training to go to. True it does suck that in 5-10 years, if you are doing Bikram you will absolutely have do business with Bikram, but still it is your choice to do so or not.
As to water, I have no idea, Rajashree said that she hoped it would be part of deal, but was not sure. So I wouldn't quote me on that. | |
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| Brian - THANK YOU for saying all of that! Agree 110%.
hotlikebikramyoga (cute name) - Thank you, too! Nice perspective. And Nicole, she is extremely correct about the hotel layout. In Palm Springs, the yoga room was WICKED far away from the hotel rooms. It took like 10 minutes to get from one to the other, and the trainees had to go back and forth, back and forth, all day long... my friend said she felt like she was in a gerbil wheel all day. (Hehe.) The Vegas set-up sounds really nice.
And seriously, grocery shopping is MAYBE a once-a-week affair, and it doesn't sounds like it's gonna be much more time-consuming than it was in Palm Springs. Cheer up! | |
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| i feel the same way as brian does.
i think that franchising can be a great thing for business owners. for those who don't want to franchise, they don't have to. it's no big deal. they just won't be able to use the name 'bikram' or the sequence.
there are a number of studios around here who teach bikram style (heat, sequence and all) and call it "hot yoga." of course, i think that they should change the sequence a bit in order to avoid any disputes.
well, let me put that another way. If i were to run a bikram-like class but i didn't franchise (or what have you), out of respect to bikram, i would change the sequence slightly in some way so that it would be not bikram specifically. this is to keep bikram's thing as bikram and whatever i'm doing as whatever i'm doing.
but, if i wanted to do a franchise, it wouldn't be a big deal to me to pay the fees. that's part of it. | |
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| OK, so, as it turns out Trader Joe's does NOT deliver. BUT, don't worry, because...I have no idea, but it will be FINE! | |
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| Vegas has monorail system now. It has a stop at the Hilton. Of course it is designed for tourists. (The whole bloody town is designed to extract money from gullible tourists.) But perhaps it can take the trainees to a Trader Joes or Whole Foods type of store.
http://www.lvmonorail.com/ride/station_guide/ | |
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| It's still in its early stages, but it looks to me like the franchise agreement could really slow the growth of new studios. For established studios who get inside the grace period, it's basically a 1% tax, which is no big deal. But for a new studio, without any established clientele, its an initial 10K, plus $1500 a month minimum. I'm not sure, but I would think that an extra $1500/month at the start is going to be pretty steep in many areas.
The studio here is doing really well in the beginning of its fourth year. But my best guess is that, if it had been under the franchise agreement from the start, it would have had a really bad time of it in its first year and maybe even the second year. I'm not sure if the difference would have been enough to break the studio, but its a little troubling to me.
I'm not opposed to the idea of franchising. To my way of thinking, the affiliation agreements that Bikram used before was a loose kind of franchising already. And I'm pretty confident that, as long as Bikram is at the head of things, the franchising will work to further the yoga, which is the main point. But after he goes, and after the vision goes with him, watch out. Lots of franchises have lost their standards after the founder left. When it happened to Wendy's, for example, I don't think that's such a big deal. But when the suits take over Bikram, it will be a very sad thing. | |
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| Did you see the rates on that thing?! Hell no, dude!
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| I tried to start a franchise topic but I guess everyone wants to talk about it here instead... hahahaha...
Carson: He does not need to go after every single studio that's ripping him off. What I think he WILL do is go after just a few of them but make a really big deal out of it. Make them an example, you know? He just needs to win a couple of high-profile cases to scare the crap out of the other people who were planning on trying the same tactic.
Duffy: First of all, I do not see $1500 anywhere. It's $1000/month for royalties, plus $100/month for technology fee, whatever that is. The $200 advertising fee is not in effect yet.
Anyway... just want to give a little perspective to these numbers. Opening a studio typically costs in the ballpark of 200K (according to my friend who opened a Bikram studio a couple years ago), so another 10K on top of that really should not make or break an operation.
As for the 5% royalty, yes, that is a lot more than the ZERO percent that we had before, but what the lawyers mentioned over and over in the meeting is that this is still priced well below "market value." Franchise royalties typically range from 5% to 12%, with an average of 8%. So this is still a really good deal, for a franchise, and Bikram fought his butt off to get it. The prices in Europe and Asia are probably going to be a lot higher, because they're going to have to price the franchise closer to market value there.
So yes, it's kind of tough, but it really is NOT a bad deal. Also, there are so many people who have been sitting on their investments for the last year, waiting to open studios, that I would expect to see a nice boom in studio openings. And the franchise is really going to try to support new studios with things like large advertising campaigns that individual studios could never afford to launch themselves. That's like half the reason it exists. Seriously. There's nothing these guys want to see more than NEW, GOOD studios. They are also getting set up to offer really nice low interest loans to people opening studios.... things like that.
As to your last point, Duffy... yeah, I share your fears there a bit!! But I don't think he'll ever be passing his vision on to suits. He has a whole generation of senior staff and teachers who will be carrying the torch for him eventually. Those are the people who will inherit the legacy. He's already, right now, doing a LOT of work to basically ensure that the Bikram Yoga Colleges and teacher trainings are self-sufficient without him. He actually said to us in July, "for 26 and 2, you guys don't need me anymore." Now, that breaks my heart a little bit, because we still WANT him!! And I don't think he plans to go anywhere for a long time yet. But he's been working on this thing for 51 years, and now he's finally started to say things like, "if I were hit by a bus tomorrow - it could happen! - I think you guys could keep everything going." It's not the end of his era YET, but he is planning for it, big time. I really really really really hope it works. | |
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| ok, I will stop grousing! I appreciate everyone's feedback on the change to las vegas.
I have nothing new to add to the franchising discussion. | |
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| I meant balconies of course, not balonies! | |
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| "Did you see the rates on that thing?! Hell no, dude!"
haha. | |
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| Unless I was at the top of the franchise, I would never as a business owner be in a franchise. $1000 + whatever IS alot. Most studios really just barely make it. Even the super successful ones have problems in the beginning. Having super low overhead is key.
I personally would not do business with Bikram. It costs too much and too easy for Bikram to get mad at you. Looking at the package he is offering the only real thing that the franchise is offering is the right to use Bikram's name, his yoga style(officially) and being listed on his website. Bikram has also been talking about the loan thing for 20 years. I wouldn't hold my breath. Also I don't think I would want to owe Bikram money. He might show up on your door to collect. Lol!
Doesn't seem like a real good bang for your buck.
That is part of the reason I personally will never go to Bikram's training or become a Bikram studio. While I respect his right to do so, I am part of the community that will say, "no thank you". I also will follow Bikrams wishes and never hire a Bikram teacher to teach Bikram yoga at my place. I'll just train them to teach my yoga instead and then charge them a fee when they open their studio. ;-) | |
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| I didn't break it down, but I was counting $1000/month as a franchise fee, $100/month technology fee, and $400/month for local advertising (which is required for new studios whether or not the advertising pool goes into effect). Depending on how you count it, that's anywhere from $1100 to $1700 per month (if the $200/month for pooled advertising starts). Compared with other rranchises, that may be cheap. I don't really know. Many other franchises have instant credibility. When a Starbucks opens up in a new neighborhood, it can probably expect to do pretty good business right off the bat. Word of mouth sells a yoga studio, and I think that's true even of a Bikram franchise. So, even if its a good deal, I'm willing to bet that there will have to be some adjustments/accomodations made for new studio owners.
I hope you are right about the senior instructors carrying the torch. Who will keep up the advanced series, I wonder? | |
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| Yeah, I actually don't know what's up with the $400/month in local advertising! They didn't mention that at seminar. I'm not sure if that will last. I know that in Boston they basically NEVER spent money on advertising because "our classes are all full already, we can't take any more people!" They operate almost totally on word of mouth.
Advanced series - YES, good question. It seems like Bikram is finally shifting his focus in that direction in a big way, now that he feels good about the status of the beginning series. He said at the advanced seminar that he plans to 1) hold advanced seminars 3 times a year, maybe in rotating locations 2) get the advanced series BOOK published in the next year, and 3) start holding TEACHER TRAININGS for the advanced series. (This is kinda huge. These things, especially the 2nd and 3rd ones, are things that he used to say he would NEVER consider doing!) It seems to me that he's trying to do for the advanced series what he did for the beginning series, which is a MUCH harder task given the material, but I think it's awesome... | |
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| Now advanced class certifications, I would be interested in that! | |
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| It's coming..........
So excited.
Course I still need to work on getting myself a regular certification... oops... priorities. | |
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Regular
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Location: The City of Brotherly Love | yogabrian - 2009-07-29 7:57 PM
Now advanced class certifications, I would be interested in that!
I wonder if he means to "copyright" that sequence?
Jeez... | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | I'm curious about taking the advanced series. Even though I still struggle on many of the beginning poses. I had thought at one time to got to Bikram TT. Not really interested anymore. If I was going that route I'd maybe to Barkan. (Not sure I'm spelling that right.) But the Advanced series? If I could actually take that with/from Bikram, I think that would be interesting. | |
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| oh man it's like a bad car accident...
its horrific, but for some reason i can't look away | |
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| DJ Dre - the advanced seminars are led by Bikram and open to everyone. The one I went to last month had plenty of students (i.e. not teachers) who had never been exposed to the advanced series before who had a GREAT time. Bikram wants to hold seminars three times a year, just needs to find locations for them... so you could definitely get your wish!! I really recommend it. Bikram was there teaching for the whole week, beginners and advanced every day - all the classes not taught by Bikram were taught by his wife Rajashree or his school principal Emmy - and I think everyone learned a LOT. | |
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Training Moved to Vegas?