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| I recently celebrated my 80th Bikram class. My practice is normally one of the joys of my life. 
Yesterday there were two young women in the studio who were taking their very first Bikram class. They were obviously having a tough time managing the heat even before the class started, but they remained until maybe just past 2/3 or more of the class, when they both finally got up to leave. Immediately, the teacher went to stand by the large glass exit door and started strongly urging them to stay, telling them to keep their "PROMISE" to remain for 90 minutes, to "JUST STAY" in the room, talking AT them continually for about :45 seconds, which pretty much stopped the class 'cold'. These two young women appeared caught like a couple of proverbial deer in the headlights; they just continued to stand 'frozen' by the door, clearly hoping the teacher would move out of their way so they could step past her. Then the class began APPLAUDING them to comply. Totally cowed, they headed back to their mats, heads down, where they continued to look miserable to the end of the class. I waved at one at one point to encourage her to get more water as it appeared her bottle was empty, and to gesture that this was craziness and to follow her own needs (I'd actually heard one of them telling one of the owners before class that she has diabetes and was asking about health risks). But they stayed in the class. Hurrah.
After class, the teacher thanked me (she thanks me from time to time because I practice in a very committed, positive way in her class; she's a relatively new teacher, albeit a mature woman, and I'm usually glad to bring that good energy to share). She was surprised when I told her that I was actually pissed off at what I perceived as her bullying tactics, that while I love the practice and enjoy her teaching, found the bullying of the two young women to be a complete turn-off, disturbing & unacceptable, IMHO. I was in the minority.
I've witnessed lesser versions of this before when people have ventured to leave the hot room, but never to this degree. Remember the infamous Jonestown massacre, where the cult mentality took over and people willingly drank cyanide poison rather than take a stand against the madness? I felt surrounded by a minor version of that madness... the teacher, the other students, and the two silly girls who couldn't stand up for themselves. There's no way I can believe this is healthy and positive.
Yes, staying in the room can feel like an achievement the first time, even the 80th time, but one also has to respect the diversity of the class. Needs vary, capacities to withstand heat and cold vary, and there's a line that is crossed between positive encouragement and downright bullying.
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| I totally take your point... it is such a fine line that we walk sometimes.
I have given a lot of thought to this idea of the "rules" that we follow in the yoga room, and just how necessary they are. (I have been thinking about a blog post on this for some time...) A lot of studios have a lot of "rules" - stay in the room, don't wipe, don't drink outside the official water breaks, etc. And I can see the reason for them, because these are things that you don't need to do when you have a strong practice. But can you really advance someone's progress by the enforcement of arbitrary rules? I dunno about that one. (See http://xkcd.com/552/)
One of my favorite teachers says that she teaches from a place of "no rules." ("Breathe, everything else is optional." Some of you may recognize who this is.  ) And yet, the students in her class always seem to go beyond their comfort zone and achieve more than they thought they were capable of. I tried to explain this to someone and got so confused that I had to go home and think about it for a long time until I figured it out: there is a subtle but INCREDIBLY important difference between telling people what they HAVE to do and telling people what they are CAPABLE of doing.
In practice, this can mean saying things in class like, "you guys know that drinking water before this posture might give you an upset stomach, right?" instead of "this isn't time for a water break!" Or "I think that you can do this posture" instead of "everyone needs to get up and try this posture!" Or "you don't have to stay, but you might feel better if you lie down right there for a minute" instead of "you have to stay in the room!" Always empowering, never degrading.
As I understand it, the teacher's job is to tell you WHAT to do, HOW to do it, and WHY you are doing it. That should apply to classroom ettiquette as well. I don't think a student (especially a new one!!) should ever be told "you have to do it this way because this is just how we do it." They're new, they're uncomfortable, they don't know what's going on yet, they don't give a shit about some arbitrary rules! If given a good reason to try something, they may try it. If given a stupid reason, or no reason at all ("because I said so" is not a reason), then why should they bother?
Yes, it is better for new students to stay through the whole class. Of course. But there are so many good ways to keep new students from bailing... "stay here so I can keep an eye on you and make sure that you're ok," "let me get you another water," "you'll feel better if you stay and breathe for a minute, you've almost made it"... and if that doesn't work, then let them go. Maybe they've done all they can. Maybe the amount that they've done so far is ALREADY a huge accomplishment for them. WHO KNOWS?
That was a very long-winded way of saying, yes.
Edited by thedancingj 2009-06-17 3:15 AM
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Veteran
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| This is a great topic to discuss. I think about this all the time. I see a lot of first-time students make a break for it to leave the class and then see the teacher head them off and encourage them to stay or discourage them to leave, however you want to think about it. I think Juliana has hit it on the head with the teachers being in a better space if they encourage rather than discourage. It can be too much for a first timer I think- don't drink water before eagle, don't wipe your sweat, don't leave the room. When I am a teacher, no matter how much kool-aid I have drunk, I want to allow my students to think for themselves, while still giving them what's best for them. Having been to lots of classes I can certainly see the point of encouraging students to stay in the room, but having been once a student who left the room (gasp!), once I decided to leave, there really isn't anything the teacher could have said to convince me to stay (I think-she didn't actually).
I guess I'm not adding anything new with this post, but yay empowering and encouraging! | |
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| I really do love this thread...good thoughts and ideas to sweat on (rather than sleep on) LOL I don't know about you but I take my yoga as a VERY personal thing. When I invite someone in my journey as a teacher I don't follow blindly. I hear, absorb and then decide. I am lucky to be a part of an encouraging and loving studio. I listen because I get the feeling of genuine concern and interest for my practice and health. not just $$$$$ good advice everyone | |
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| I am delighted with the critical thinking! | |
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| It honestly does help new students to at least stay in the classroom for the duration. I can understand some gentle encouragement, but to almost physically try to keep individuals in the room is uncalled for in my opinion. I've seen far more egregious lapses in classroom protocol than having the fight or flight response kick in. For example, the owners of our studio now want students' kids to start yoga early in life, so they now encourage the students to bring their kids under 12 into classes free of charge. As a result, someone has started bringing in their 5 year old who wanders the room and goes in and out of class no less than 8 times during the course of a 90 minute class. Why something is not done about this is beyond me. Now THAT qualifies as a situation where direct teacher intervention is warranted.
Beyond that, the only gray area I think should be more black and white is people leaving the room to refill on water. Why not take responsibility for yourself and bring in enough water to last you the full class?? | |
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| Bruce - 2009-06-17 6:44 AM
I am delighted with the critical thinking!
Following anything or anyone (including your own beliefs from the past) without critical thinking leads only to mindless repetition. Critical thinking leads to learning, which leads to understanding, which leads to transformation.
Edited by jimg 2009-06-17 1:55 PM
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Veteran
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| i LOVE that last post !!! the part about questioning even your own beliefs is so invigorating | |
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| I can understand why the rules exist. I have a more difficult time concentrating when people are slurping water at random times or when people leave the room. However, I really don't like the idea of someone essentially "blocking" the door. Where I practice, if there are new students the instructor asks them to please stay inthe room, rest as much as needed between poses, etc. Advises them to drink water at the designated breaks, etc. Rules are discussed prior to class starting! Then once class starts, typically she does not "lecture" the rules. People know them and most of the time comply. I have never seen someone "block the door" That would really upset my concentration! | |
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| I have practiced at two different studios, each for about 6 months. At the first one, I don't think I ever saw anyone leave the room - first class or not.
At my current studio, I have seen several first-timers leave the room, and also some people who have been practicing longer leave the room. Some ppl I have seen leave the room almost every time we've been in the same class. This does happen more with some teachers than others, and each one has their own way of dealing with it (more forceful or more encouraging), but I think I have seen it happen with almost every teacher there.
What I think is the main difference - at the first studio, the teachers spend 1-on-1 time with each new student. After they fill in their forms, that day's teacher gives a quick tour of the studio, asks some questions about why they are there and their experience with yoga, and lets them know that their only goal for the day is to stay in the room. They can sit down, kneel down, lie down as much as they like, even the entire class, but try to stay in the room. There is certainly friendly contact made with each new student at my current studio and the "stay in the class" goal is shared at the beginning of every class, but I think this 1-on-1 time builds a bond with the student and teacher, and makes the student trust and like the teacher more. I think they want to stay in the room then, and they feel more supported if they just want to lie down.
I totally agree with dancingj - I think it is best when teachers take the stance of sharing with us what we are capable of (even when we don't know it ourselves - especially then), rather than telling us what we must do. I think in the majority of cases though, ppl that want to leave the room probably don't need to - they just don't know their own potential to stay. | |
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| Bruce - hysterical. Thanks for the comment. I LOVED it.
Jim - YES.
jtho - Yes, EXACTLY. We all agree that it's better when people aren't "slurping water at random times" or going in and out like there's a revolving door (or letting their kids run around in circles!) but the question is about HOW the teachers can encourage this good behavior in their students. And what you describe at the first studio - one-on-one attention, honest discussion, and explanation of what's going on - is a GREAT way to make this happen. Lecturing on rules - eeehh, not so effective.
And you're so right that it is ESPECIALLY important for the teachers to help us discover how much we are capable of. One great idea that I've heard is, "it's the teacher's job to hold up a stronger image for the students until they are strong enough to hold it themselves." Lack of "rules" doesn't mean that the students won't be challenged; in fact, it can be just the opposite. It's all about balance. | |
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| A good teacher (or any authority figure) actually understands the "rules" and therefore tries to implement the meaning and the understanding, not just the behavior. By doing so, that teacher shares the why for the rule and motivates the student to want to follow that rule where appropriate through understanding. Teaching is leading the student towards understanding and letting the student draw their own conclusions from that understanding.
A bad teacher has memorized the "rules" and blindly tries to enforce them. By doing so, that teacher is basically trying to force their will on the student, regardless of whether the "rule" is appropriate in this particular case. They are not teaching, they are just trying to dominate. To me, this shows a total lack of respect for the student and also for yoga.
Actually blocking a student from leaving a 105 degree room is not only disrespectful, unlawful detainment or false imprisonment is a tort, and possibly a crime.
Abusive teachers do not only exist in Bikram yoga. There are many abusive yoga teachers our there (some of them famous). It is important to call these people on their abusive behavior as it is never acceptable. Otherwise, you are encouraging it to continue. All people should be treated with kindness and respect. | |
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| i think too it is important to note, abusive behavior can be anywhere. We always need to gain and maintain respect for ourselves and draw lines. | |
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| As a teacher of yoga I relish students remaining in the room because they feel it is appropriate for them, they feel nourished by the practice, they feel a sense of self, they feel light permeating them through the five koshas.
A student that remains in the room from obligation, group think, peer pressure, intimidation, or obstruction...that just does not feel (to me) in alignment with the philosophy of yoga that so richly deserves to be applied.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | jimg - 2009-06-18 1:17 PM
Actually blocking a student from leaving a 105 degree room is not only disrespectful, unlawful detainment or false imprisonment is a tort, and possibly a crime.
That's what I was thinking. I would of just pushed my way pass the door....and you would of NEVER seen me again...at that studio. Not only is this ridiculous, this is insane. Sorry guys, I ain't sugar coating this one, LOL!!
Gordon is right...this is not in alignment with the principals of Yoga.
Edited by Cyndi 2009-06-22 8:08 AM
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| So many excellent points made, thanks to everyone for this discussion.
I see two principles here.
The first is about taking responsibility for your own practice. Strategies may include seeking those teachers whose manner or style serves to nourish your body and spirit, and either avoiding those teachers who vex us, or drawing a line with them, or absorbing what we need from their class while letting go of the rest i.e., finding a way for each class to be a gift.
The other principle is about when and how to assume responsibility for others. I'm culpable when I witness something that my gut knows is wrong or abusive or simply stupid, yet I don't interfere. Perhaps it's the authority-oriented Bikram practice (or the HEAT!) that turns some students--myself included at times--into lemmings. What is the best way to speak up to the nonsense such as 'bullying' the less experienced students? It surely has to be done right there and then.
In another scenario (that I just have to share), I once witnessed a teacher congratulating a newbie in front everyone at the start of her very first class for being "courageous" because she'd not brought any water to the studio. She wasn't being courageous...She didn't have a clue and very nearly passed out! He should have made sure she had hydration, not given her cudos!
Fortunately, I'm privileged to work with many wonderful teachers at my studio. The bad apples have certainly been the minority.
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| I love teachers who encourage the class to remain diciplined. By maintaining silence and trying to stay still between postures. This is part of the training in yoga.
the part of being a door cop doesnt fit into that. Encouraging people in the beginning of the class is all that is required. I too have almost thrown up when I first started Bikram and had to leave the class. No teacher would have been able to keep me in the room. | |
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| jimg - 2009-06-17 1:36 PM
Following anything or anyone (including your own beliefs from the past) without critical thinking leads only to mindless repetition. Critical thinking leads to learning, which leads to understanding, which leads to transformation.
You and I have in the past disagree on this but I am putting it out there for the benefit of others.
Thinking is vastly overrated and unecessary. Instead silence and developing your intuitive abilities through practises of meditation is vastly superior to the western mode of think think think. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | "Critical Thinking" often leads to judgment, as I've often seen here in this forum and in others I've managed over the years. "Critical Thinking" is often the term people use to defend their intrusion and assumptions about others. Their motivation is often to get other people to think "critically" all while having absolutely no knowledge of the journey of the people they so want to challenge.
My view on "thinking" in regard to Yoga is that for the most part, it is a hindrance to progress, peace and eventually, enlightenment. To paraphrase Stephen Cope from The Wisdom of Yoga, for some a whole "mountain of insight never matures into a molehill" of change. In other words, it's not the intellect or the thought, it's the doing.
When you can do the same series, in the heat, deal with the boredom and overcome the urge to leave, you can find stillness. You can overcome anything. And you don't even have to think about it. You can turn off the mind, or decide how you want to react to something. That's beautiful. | |
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Veteran
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| well said DJ Dre .......When you can do the same series, in the heat, deal with the boredom and overcome the urge to leave, you can find stillness. You can overcome anything. And you don't even have to think about it. You can turn off the mind, or decide how you want to react to something. That's beautiful.... i LOVE this | |
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| Critical thinking is self-guided, self-disciplined thinking which attempts to reason at the highest level of quality in a fair-minded way. People who think critically consistently attempt to live rationally, reasonably, empathically.
http://www.criticalthinking.org
Sounds pretty yogic to me. | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I'm sorry "Active Surrender" to what??? | |
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| Ram - 2009-06-27 2:51 PM
jimg - 2009-06-17 1:36 PM
Following anything or anyone (including your own beliefs from the past) without critical thinking leads only to mindless repetition. Critical thinking leads to learning, which leads to understanding, which leads to transformation.
You and I have in the past disagree on this but I am putting it out there for the benefit of others.
Thinking is vastly overrated and unecessary. Instead silence and developing your intuitive abilities through practises of meditation is vastly superior to the western mode of think think think.
Thinking is often overrated, but none the less necessary. Just because you think critically does not mean that you need to forego silence and developing your intuitive abilities any more than just because you are working on flexibility you need to forego strength. It is a question of balance between the two. Each, by itself is worthless. A balance between them is priceless. | |
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| How can you surrender to "what is" when you are part of "what is"? Perception requires both a perceiver and a thing perceived. | |
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| "How can you surrender to "what is" when you are part of "what is"? Perception requires both a perceiver and a thing perceived."
This leads to a paradox that seems to arise from the various forms of Cartesian dualism. We start with the notion that what cannot be perceived does not exist. Then we take your idea that perception requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. Well the perceiver can't perceive itself. Therefore, the self doesn't exist. This is not just my play on this, its a fundamental aspect of the whole Cogito, ergo sum routine (and what you've stated is basically the phenomenology analog of Cartesian dualism).
Not that I care that much about this, but I do find it amusing. | |
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| Bruce:
The last niyama is devoted to surrender:Isvara pranidhana
Of course, you are free to reject any and/or all of the yoga teachings you want. But this is pretty basic stuff. | |
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| Isvara pranidhana is surrendering to the Creator's will, not Bikram's, or Obamas's, or Ahmadinejad's or whoever. | |
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Veteran
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| My creator (and I use the term 'my' because we all share diff belief systems) did also create the leaders and says yes they do need to be honored. However the creator ALSO knows how we are all human (including the leaders) and that they can and will fall and make mistakes. Telling us to follow IF what they are saying is sound and in the creators direction of values ect. | |
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| Duffy Pratt - 2009-06-28 9:51 PM
Then we take your idea that perception requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. Well the perceiver can't perceive itself. Therefore, the self doesn't exist.
The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness.
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| CarsonZi - 2009-06-29 7:37 AM
Surrendering to the Will of the Creator will make everything a whole lot simpler. I can guarantee it. Love,
Carson
How do you know the "Will of the Creator"? Isn't that simply following your ego or the ego of another?
The concepts of "will" and "creator" are both constructs of the mind; illusions, beliefs. They are words in your head, not reality. They are a diversion from reality, not a path to it.
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| What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty? | |
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| "The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness. "
Before you objected to surrendering to what is because you are a part of what is. You insisted that perception required two things, a perceiver and a thing perceived. Now you say that perception doesn't require two things, because the perceiver can perceive itself. These statements are logically inconsistent.
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| CarsonZi - 2009-06-29 9:43 AM
I used to believe I had control over things in my life. I no longer believe that. Personal experience has shown me that control is a complete illusion. I have Surrendered to a Higher Power, a Higher Self, so that I may be a vessel, and outlet for Divine Love. Love,
Carson
Hi Carson,
I think that the old:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."
applies here.
Although I do not believe in God, I do agree with the sentiment.
You do have control over some things and absolutely no control over others. You can control your breath. You can indirectly control your blood pressure. You cannot control your pancreas. Many aspects of human existence are "hard wired" and many are self directed. Many external circumstances are outside our control and many are self induced. Life is very complex. It may make it easier to view it simply, but that does not change the complexity. Everything in life requires balance to function successfully (homeostasis). There is a balance between control and surrender that is necessary, just like the balance between critical thinking and intuition, activity and rest, sympathetic and para-sympathetic. Extremes are violent and lead to dis-ease. Balance is peace. Balance is ease.
Namaste,
Jim
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| Duffy Pratt - 2009-06-29 9:54 AM
"The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness. "
Before you objected to surrendering to what is because you are a part of what is. You insisted that perception required two things, a perceiver and a thing perceived. Now you say that perception doesn't require two things, because the perceiver can perceive itself. These statements are logically inconsistent.
You cannot surrender to yourself. Surrender is giving up control and you cannot give up control to yourself because you are then not actually giving up control. Perception still requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. The fact that you are aware of yourself as existing is proof that you can be both perceiver and perceived.
Edited by jimg 2009-06-29 1:29 PM
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| On a completely different note, Carson, I'm heading to Calgary this week...can you recommend a studio where I can drop in to practice? Thanks.
Re the discussion: yes, there are things we have no choice but to surrender to. But by witnessing a cruel act and choosing to simply acknowledge/surrender to it, we are culpable.
Didn't we learn from the event of WWII and the Holocaust that bad things happen when 'good' people do nothing? Should the people of Iran simply have allowed the election results to go unchallenged, surrendered to those results? People who are enslaved or wanting human rights usually fail to see the same virtues in surrender. You can take the argument to a logical conclusion that murder is not bad in and of itself, it is only our imposed perception of it as wrong that renders it so. That's a frightening and dangerous proposition. | |
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| jimg - 2009-06-28 6:27 PM
Ram - 2009-06-27 2:51 PM
jimg - 2009-06-17 1:36 PM
Following anything or anyone (including your own beliefs from the past) without critical thinking leads only to mindless repetition. Critical thinking leads to learning, which leads to understanding, which leads to transformation.
You and I have in the past disagree on this but I am putting it out there for the benefit of others.
Thinking is vastly overrated and unecessary. Instead silence and developing your intuitive abilities through practises of meditation is vastly superior to the western mode of think think think.
Thinking is often overrated, but none the less necessary. Just because you think critically does not mean that you need to forego silence and developing your intuitive abilities any more than just because you are working on flexibility you need to forego strength. It is a question of balance between the two. Each, by itself is worthless. A balance between them is priceless.
You can choose to take your approach. Like you say it is not rejecting silence or intuition. It sounds like a better way to approach thinking.
but what you are not willing to consider is living thought free. You can live thought free. And believe it or not function at a much higer level. Most of the problems in life are the result of thinking.
Living thought free is not something you can just desire and have it happen. Our minds are powerful and most people are slaves to their thoughts. But with practise (medidation) one can live in a thought free state. | |
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| joysweat - 2009-06-29 12:46 PM
What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty?
As with any spiritual practise their is a practical application to it. Nobody should ever "surrender" to being beaten up or abused.
Surrender from a spiritual perspective is a word that has many layers to it. Depending on your degree of development it means something different to everyone.
From my perspective surrender means to give in to your higher self vs. your ego/mind. The senses and ego tell you to do one thing and it may differ from what your higher consciousness may tell you is a better action. some people live purely on this physical plane on auto pilot. Others live more consciously surrendering from their implusive behavours to using their inner guidance. You can call it God, intuition, consciousness, ki, chi, kundalini, or the holy spirit. | |
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| jimg - 2009-06-29 1:24 PM
You cannot surrender to yourself. Surrender is giving up control and you cannot give up control to yourself because you are then not actually giving up control. Perception still requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. The fact that you are aware of yourself as existing is proof that you can be both perceiver and perceived.
who is aware? Who was it that reported to you your dreams when you woke up?
There is something beyond both the perciever and percieved.
Who/What is that? Until you actually experience it is either a dry belief or a reason you are a non-believer. Belief by itself is pure bullshit. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Critical thinking is self-guided, self-disciplined thinking which attempts to reason at the highest level of quality in a fair-minded way. People who think critically consistently attempt to live rationally, reasonably, empathically.
What too often shows up here, in the Bikram forum, is not "self-guided" critical thinking. It is simply someone offering their criticism of this series and who originated it, with very little knowledge of how each person practices it. The goal of Yoga, and in most eastern philosophy isn't critical thinking. It is to become the observer. The observer isn't critical of self, much less of other people. Critical thinking is the runaway muck of western intellect.
Bring it on dammit! If the battle is not difficult, it's not worthy.
I've tried to convey this idea before Bruce... I don't want to do battle here, in this forum, with other regarding my practice. You are, of course, free to fight your battles on your mat or where ever else you may want to have a fight. But I suggest that the willingness to fight is not enlightenment.
The surrender Carson speaks of is evident in much of Buddhism. The Sutras define many states of perception. Eckhart Tolle combines/paraphrases many of these ideas and notions quite well. What Tolle explains well is that we are not our mind. Our mind exists, so does the ego. A refined mind allows our true self to become the observer, outside of emotional reaction and outside of intellectual processes. Only then can we have "correct" perception.
Isvara pranidhana is surrendering to the Creator's will, not Bikram's, or Obamas's, or Ahmadinejad's or whoever.
And the ax grinds on. I do not surrender to Bikram, and to suggest that anyone does is to suggest something one simply cannot know about another. I do not debate that ishvara can be translated as god or creator. But it doesn't have to be, it's not the only translation.
The Shambala Press translation (by Chip Hartranft) defines ishvara as 1. the power of pure awareness, 2. the ideal of pure awareness and only at the third definition does it say, "the lord".
Ishvara-pranidhana is surrender to pure awareness or dedication to pure awareness and thirdly, surrender to the lord.
Even though I identify as agnostic, and one who has moved steadfastly away from christianity, the idea of joining god or becoming one with god makes sense via the notion of pure awareness. You do not so much as surrender to god, but you surrender to what is, to the Now or the moment. And in being able to do that, then you know god.
Perhaps I should start a new thread entitled "active surrender" so that this thread is not hijacked so badly.....either way I will answer you here for now....
Carson, this forum gets hijacked all the time, often by people who would reduce another's practice to "drinking the kool aid". I'm glad you're here. Thanks.
Thankyou, Amy. | |
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| Dr Dre wrote: "The goal of Yoga, and in most eastern philosophy isn't critical thinking. It is to become the observer. The observer isn't critical of self, much less of other people. Critical thinking is the runaway muck of western intellect."
Runaway muck? Good grief...of what good is an impotent observer other than a selfish ego-driven desire to put oneself above the the fray. Perhaps simply a hallow feeling of enlightenment.
"But I suggest that the willingness to fight is not enlightenment"
We may have to write a new plot to the Bhagavad Gita where Arjuna bravely runs away. If we go back to the original intent by the original poster, joysweat, it's basically sort out your own situation and act accordingly--if it's surrender fine, if it's don't take $hit, that's fine too. | |
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| Bruce - 2009-06-29 7:33 PM
Runaway muck? Good grief...of what good is an impotent observer other than a selfish ego-driven desire to put oneself above the the fray. Perhaps simply a hallow feeling of enlightenment.
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What makes you think the observer is "impotent" and "above the fray". Do you subscibe to the theory of the enlightened one being some syrupy yoga character?
are you scared that you wont be "warrior bruce" anymore?
Dude you can never "escape the fray". And I would think your desire to become enlightened has EVERYTHING to do with no longer wanting to be a slave to your ego/mind. | |
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| Gibberish Ram. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | ::sighs:: What can one say, Ram? As the observer in me develops, I am anything but impotent. I am wiser and chose better when to act. I am not above the fray, it simply becomes less and less relevant to my happiness. | |
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| Thanks so much for the attempt to clarify things for me Carson--how altruistic of you. | |
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| Carson my comment certainly was meant to be sarcastic but your holier than thou attitude actually convinced you I was being sincere and your unflappable ego daned to spare me pain by gracing me with a "benefit of the doubt."
Seriously mate, go about your journey and be happy and fullfilled--be there for your Creator and yourself.
Joysweat wrote of her situation and I maintain simply that one must sort out his/her own situation and act accordingly--intuition is not a stand alone entity--it is forged on learned experiences and when it comes to the self, nobody else is going to act for the individual and to accept what others have created when that outcome is unsatisfactory is, in my opinion, foolish. | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Criticism and sarcasm. Wonderful. Well, you can't say you didn't try, Carson.
joysweat, you asked: What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty?
I've been reading The Power of Now. I recently read where Tolle dealt with the concept of accepting what is in terms of wrongs humankind has done to one another. He suggests it's not so much that you accept the wrong but that you view it in terms of it happening to the body. We are not our body or our mind. If we accept or surrender to what is, we are able to not let it touch or affect that what is our true self.
I thumbed through the Tao Te Ching and found this an interesting parallel:
Thirteen
Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.
What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."
What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?
Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things. | |
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| The above thread is exactly why i go to bikram yoga. I dont need to even think of any of that. Just get a good workout | |
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| Wei Wu Wei says "Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you think, and of everything you do, is for yourself--and there isn't one." 'You' don't really exist. It's just an illusion - a trick of the ego that 'you' are separate from everything. So well meaning advice like 'Don't take any crap from anyone' only works if one believes they are separate from the crap giver when in reality 'they' are both the crap giver and receiver as well as the monkey at the zoo and the flower in the meadow next to the brook down at the farm ('You" are even the bead of sweat falling off the super model in front of you in class! - and that fat guys enormous toenail for that matter). The mind/ego, like Iago whispering in your ear, tells you that 'You' are separate - to not take any crap! It will fight like hell to maintain that illusion because doing so keeps it in charge.
'We'/'You' are one consciousness not separate 'I's. 'Surrender' is surrendering to that collective consciousness. So in the presence of cruelty 'you' are the cruelty - the giver and receiver of it - surrender to that. Through this surrrender one can hopefully tap into the vast intelligence of that collective consciousness (some call that God). That intelligence that is far superior to our ego/minds. It makes the planets go around suns, flowers bloom and our bodies function etc.
Hatha yoga/meditation is a good way to get there.
That's just how 'I' see it!!!
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| "You" are both a separate organism and a part of humanity or society, which is part of the planet, which is part of the universe. It is not one or the other, but both. "You" as a separate organism has a mind, a body, an ego, a distinct life etc. It developed from two cells into a unique life form, grew and experienced things, will die, lose its separateness and be absorbed by the greater. Your mind/body is a distinct, separate organism that is very similar to (but not identical to) the minds/bodies of all the other people for the past million years. You are separate, you have different cells, different genes, different stored memories etc. It is not an illusion. You are a unique person, just like everybody else.
Consciousness is also separate and communal at the same time. When you are in deep sleep, unconscious or die, your consciousness ceases. Your consciousness is a separate biochemical reaction that is going on. It is also the same biochemical reaction that is going on in everyone else who is conscious. We have separate individual consciousness, family or group consciousness, cultural consciousness etc all happening at the same time without any division.
Edited by jimg 2009-07-01 1:28 PM
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| Jimg:
Maybe consciousness is a biochemical reaction. Maybe not. Right now, I think most people believe it is so because they've been told that we think with our brains. And, of course, we now lack a better explanation. But no-one has yet isolated any kind of "chemical consciousness". It's an area about which we are very, very ignorant.
Duffy | |
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| Hi Duffy,
You may enjoy the book "Wider Than the Sky: The Phenomenal Gift of Consciousness" by Nobel Prize winner Gerald Edelman.
Jim
PS We "think" with our brains, but that thinking is totally integrated with our endocrine systems and the rest of our bodies. The brain is not separate, but an integrated, interdependent part of the body.
Edited by jimg 2009-07-01 4:33 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | jimg - 2009-07-01 12:57 PM
"You" are both a separate organism and a part of humanity or society, which is part of the planet, which is part of the universe. It is not one or the other, but both. "You" as a separate organism has a mind, a body, an ego, a distinct life etc. It developed from two cells into a unique life form, grew and experienced things, will die, lose its separateness and be absorbed by the greater. Your mind/body is a distinct, separate organism that is very similar to (but not identical to) the minds/bodies of all the other people for the past million years. You are separate, you have different cells, different genes, different stored memories etc. It is not an illusion. You are a unique person, just like everybody else.
Yeah..so get it together you guys!!,  Then take it a little further and walla...you have YOGA...which means UNION...hello?? I love it when things are really simple. Thanks Bruce and Jim for bringing this thread back to center!! | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I think we need to rename this thread to "Let's shove Bikram Kool-aid, down your throat!!!"....this is the most self-righteous and crappy thread I've ever read on yoga.com. Just because someone signs his name with 'Love' at the end, does not make him or her more of a better or supreme Yogi, much less an authority on someone's practice. This is so fake and phony...and totally NOT what yoga is about. Frankly, since coming into the Hatha yoga practice, and meeting really down to earth and fellow yogi's such as Jim and Bruce, it has enabled me to be able to live and operate in the world - so much smoother...THANKS GUYS......because we are a part of this world...we can't be airy fairy all the time and get our Karma Yoga done...sorry!! Just because we don't speak that weird fake and phony language, that only Westerner's can conjure up just to justify their silly notions of what they "think" things should be, doesn't hold any merit!! We need Warriors in this world...even the yoga realm has the Dharma protectors,
Edited by Cyndi 2009-07-02 12:28 PM
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| Ram - 2009-07-02 8:25 AM
You do a great job explaining the biological scientific explanation of this human existence.
===>Thank you.
what you have yet to experience is that "something" beyond the human body and our physical experience.
===>I have experienced many things, all of which can be explained without using non-physical explanations. I'm sure that all that you have experienced can also be simply explained within the realm of logic and physical facts. Maybe all the physical facts are not yet known or understood, but they still exist. The earth was always a sphere and not flat, regardless of how people thought of it. Just to set the record straight: When your subjective perception is that you are outside your body and one with the universe, you are not actually physically (or in any other way) outside your body. In meditative and dream states you can subjectively experience many things that are fantasies and hallucinations. A schizophrenic actually hears voices. His ears do not hear them. His mind creates them, but they seem absolutely real to that person.
It exists in between our thoughts, at the end of our exhalations and before the beginning of our next inhalation. It exists beyond any of our thought patterns. It is yet to be able to be measured by scientific instruments. Until you have a concrete experience of it or are willing to investigate it you will always hold on to your beliefs that it doesn't exist.
===>Do you mean non-verbal intuitive perception? Non-verbal intuitive perception is a very normal part of brain activity and a necessity to the functioning of humans and other animals.
Your belief system is nowhere near abnormal.
===>Thank you (I think).
It is a conditioned belief in our society.
===>All beliefs are conditioned. You are just following another set of conditioned beliefs. You have traded the conditioned beliefs of the modern world for the conditioned beliefs of an earlier world. Just to set the record straight, I used to believe in the kind of things that you are talking about but as a result of continued multi disciplined study, learning and expanding my mind (not holding on to any particular set of conditioning or beliefs), I have come to other conclusions and continue to come to new conclusions on almost a daily basis.
It is those who live outside this belief who are thought as a little "whacky" or as Warrior Bruce says "jibberish".
===>All beliefs are "jibberish".
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| <i>I think we need to rename this thread to "Let's shove Bikram Kool-aid, down your throat!!!".</i>
or we could take it further and rename to whole board 'Bikram Yoga Forum Run By and For People Who Can't Stand and Rarely Practice Bikram Yoga." | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | lockdaknee - 2009-07-02 1:12 PM
I think we need to rename this thread to "Let's shove Bikram Kool-aid, down your throat!!!".
or we could take it further and rename to whole board 'Bikram Yoga Forum Run By and For People Who Can't Stand and Rarely Practice Bikram Yoga."
Just so you'll know...I've done my Bikram time...and then some. Did my 90+ day challenge too...twice! The Bikram method, which consists of 26 postures are nothing but plain simple Hatha Yoga...period!! I do them quite often - every day....sometimes I do strictly Bikram, sometimes I mix it up and sometimes I just do plain Hatha Yoga. Just because some of us move onto other aspects of our practice, does not mean we can't stand or rarely practice Bikram.....its just means that we've moved beyond to deeper levels of our practice. I like Bikram and I totally respect this practice. What I don't respect is some of the ignorance that I've witnessed now and over the years.. this includes my own stupidity at times - its just part of the terrain (yes, we all have it!!!) We have every right to be here as well...and we also have a right to share our experiences which is very vital to the process and it's just part of the process of having a mirror to look back at ya...whether you like it or not, Last time I checked, I signed onto this forum in December, 2004. Its amazing to see how we ALL have evolved through our practice since that time....even before the time I ever signed onto this forum. So there ya go.
Anyway, Happy 4th...Independence Day now has an entirely different meaning for me at this present moment...THANK GOD I'm so happy to have my freedom and Independence!! | |
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| Cool on all counts - you have every right for sure!
Happy 4th 2 u 2.
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| Carson wrote: "What wierd and phony language are you talking about? English? Would you prefer I used more slang and less punctuation? Not sure where you were going with this one. Oh, and just because you say something has no merit doesn't mean that is true for everyone."
I can only reply that Yoga exploratory research points to facilitating transitional alignment that really can't fail as you are armed with remote transitional contingencies. Some think only reactionary bastards stuck in the past still go for knowledge-based reciprocal concepts; indeed, thinking a solution as to determining reality can only be acquired by observation in transitional time-phases. To actually accomplish this, enlightened research points to total transcendental projections augmented by synchronized transitional paradigm shifts.
--special thanks to the Plain English Campaign's Gobbledygook generator | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Ram - 2009-07-02 3:32 PM
Maybe someday both of us can be as cool as warrior Bruce.
I don't think anyone will ever be as cool as Warrior Bruce...EVER, | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Bruce - 2009-07-02 2:13 PM
I can only reply that Yoga exploratory research points to facilitating transitional alignment that really can't fail as you are armed with remote transitional contingencies. Some think only reactionary bastards stuck in the past still go for knowledge-based reciprocal concepts; indeed, thinking a solution as to determining reality can only be acquired by observation in transitional time-phases. To actually accomplish this, enlightened research points to total transcendental projections augmented by synchronized transitional paradigm shifts.
--special thanks to the Plain English Campaign's Gobbledygook generator
Love it, Love it, Love IT!! | |
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| Shall we call this quits ladies and gentlemen? I don't think we're being a lot of help to jowsweat anymore. But, perhaps we all feel better. A little spirited discussion is a fine way to celebrate Independence Day. | |
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| Carson and Bruce, you are BOTH fabulous.
Carson, your posts remind me a bit of Ezra Pound, who once (tho I can't recall the poem) wrote the line:
"And I am happier than you are"
which, if you think about it, meant that he couldn't have been that happy.
I hope I'm wrong, but wanted you to know that's what I'm inferring from your postings and why, perhaps, you received a backlash.
Yeah, the ORIGINAL question was about how to respond when you witness a jackass direction from a teacher, the kind that potentially puts someone else at risk. It happens rarely, but it happens. Perhaps it was more of an etiquette question, a practical one, involving morality. Has anyone been successful in mediating such a situation? If so, how?
But YEAH, this has been an education of a different kind.
For that I thank Bruce and Carson for going at it mano a mano (just couldn't resist, Carson) and everyone else for so many thoughtful and passionate contributions. | |
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| I have been the mediator Joy--on many occasions at the Bikram studio I where I used to practice. The first occasion was my very first day ever in a yoga class. I was told to "Get back in that room!" by a 5 foot tall 100lb instructor. Well, that didn't happen. We became fast friends subsequently and we both grew in our practice in the following years. She's treaching on a Pacific islad as part of the Peace Corps these days. I doubt it will surprise anyone that other occasions when the instructor decided to flex there muscles again involved me. In my early years of practice, a teacher/owner would continually overtime and I needed to get back to work. One day, she pulled me aside and said that when I left early, I disturbed others. No I replied, when you run late, you disrespect me and my life so therefore you're the cause of the disruption. She refused to listen so I continued to leave when I needed to and eventually quit attending. Anyway, the stories could go on endlessly. TO me a yoga environment is no different than anywhere else, treat others as you'd be treated and take no crap. | |
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| Sheesh, I leave you all alone for like ONE week, I come back, and I have NO IDEA what is going on anymore... !! | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | thedancingj - 2009-07-06 2:50 AM
Sheesh, I leave you all alone for like ONE week, I come back, and I have NO IDEA what is going on anymore... !!
I know, isn't this wild??? Be careful if you say anything to certain people here..........they'll think your angry and upset, when really they are the ones who are......and then you find yourself in a WTF?? | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | CarsonZi - 2009-07-06 11:55 AM
Cyndi - 2009-07-06 6:19 AM
Be careful if you say anything to certain people here..........they'll think your angry and upset, when really they are the ones who are...... Be careful assuming that you (can) know what another is thinking or feeling. Love,
Carson
Yeah Carson...you do the same, | |
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Location: Oregon | Carson: I used to argue with my friend who is a Bikrams teacher/studio owner about Bikram’s Yoga in this regards all the time.....I used to say to him, "Why doesn't Bikram add in a decent form of pranayam and some meditation and make his system at least a little bit more well rounded?" "Doesn't he realize that asanas are just one of 8 limbs?".....what I got in response was that Bikram was charged with spreading yoga to the west....and that this to him meant exposing as many people as possible to it. He didn't feel that many Westerners were ready for any kind of introspective yoga practice like meditation, so he focussed on creating and honing a system that would appeal to the maximum amount of people who could then find out about the rest of the limbs of yoga on their own as they felt driven to (please keep in mind I have never talked to Bikram personally about this and all this was relayed to me through another who spoke to Bikram on the subject. I cannot vouch for the validity of this info myself).
From what I hear from my local studio owner, I think you're spot on. Yes, he was charged with spreading Yoga to the west. But it's also more than that. Yoga simply doesn't have to be that complex. Bikram is often paraphrased as saying before you can meditate (still the mind) you need to be able to still the body (asanas). I -so- relate to that. When I attend other styles of Yoga, there is so much fidgeting and movement. One, I don't think those styles would have worked for me, and two, I don't think I would have truly found stillness. It took the intense, consistent environment/expectations and vigorous series for me to find stillness. Now, everything is opening up for me, stillness, meditation, accepting the moment.
Bikram is a lot of things I don't particularly care to associate with. But the aspects of Yoga he focuses on are really quite simple. And there's good reason for it. | |
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Location: Oregon | For what it's worth, when I talk of stilling the body, I'm not talking about an actual seated posture. For me, it was connecting breath to movement and finding stillness in a pose, for just 20 or 30 seconds. Meditation for me can be painting or walking, just as much my seated meditation.
I work in a residential psychiatric treatment center. I teach yoga there. These kids have so many different diagnoses, they've been abused, abandoned, been abusers or just have their brains wired differently. Regardless of how or where any one ends up on the spectrum, it's my belief we store pain and emotion in our bodies and to transcend the body, we have to acknowledge that the pain is there and how it is connected to our bodies. I am sure that there are many paths and that many can still the mind before body. I don't generally think that's the norm. | |
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| for me it often goes the opposite direction. by not knowing what is coming next, the focus is intensified. with this, i study each posture individually, so there is repetition of the postures (just not necessarily the sequence) and that creates a depth and familiarity that creates a level of emotional release/comfort/security that can allow for that balance of knowledge and uncertainity that can create deep focus.
i find that when i do something too repetitive, i either become mindless (eg, not attentive) or my mind goes monkey.
but, that is also part of the discipline of a repetitive practice for me--can i do it with mindfulness and focus? that creates a lot of effort for me which can be good, thought other times, could be more work than i need to get to that state of stillness.
it really depends upon my mind that moment/day/what have you.
since i have hawk, i find that my mind is often in a state of extreme alert. i'm in a wide state of attentiveness to his needs and to his safety overall. i'm constantly opening my awareness to far paths, as best i can, because when i narrow in or "loose my mind" i call it, i tend to end up in some stupid-freaky danger (eg, today i almost walked into a moving car because i was enamored with wild turtles sunning themselves--i was carrying hawk at the time, and the car honked at me thankfully! and boy did i feel stupid).
this means that my practice has to be a real respite, and therefore the effort required for me in a repetitive class is too much. i find myself exhausted from that effort, rather than revitalized.
but, that's why there is so much variety.
btw, i enjoyed reading dancingj's blog, and one of her friend's blog who is doing or just finished the teacher training. i found myself wanting to go. how crazy is that? LOL | |
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| I think the whole "blocking the door" mentality is madness. What if someone drops dead in the room because they were made to stay? Is there any responsibility taken for that from the studio? I think we are the best people to judge where we are at physically, and if you are really feeling bad and you need to leave, then leave. | |
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| Alex33 - 2009-09-22 12:34 AM
I think the whole "blocking the door" mentality is madness. What if someone drops dead in the room because they were made to stay? Is there any responsibility taken for that from the studio? I think we are the best people to judge where we are at physically, and if you are really feeling bad and you need to leave, then leave.
I have never been to a studio that actually locks or 'blocks' the exit. We discourage new students from leaving in order to help them overcome their fear and mental resistances but I have never seen anyone physically prevented from leaving the room. I believe this is a common misconception. | |
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| byd - 2009-09-29 9:30 PM
Alex33 - 2009-09-22 12:34 AM
I think the whole "blocking the door" mentality is madness. What if someone drops dead in the room because they were made to stay? Is there any responsibility taken for that from the studio? I think we are the best people to judge where we are at physically, and if you are really feeling bad and you need to leave, then leave.
I have never been to a studio that actually locks or 'blocks' the exit. We discourage new students from leaving in order to help them overcome their fear and mental resistances but I have never seen anyone physically prevented from leaving the room. I believe this is a common misconception.
Word. The closest I've seen to someone "blocking the door" was actually a totally legit situation. My friend was teaching, and before the class I heard her in a discussion with a girl who came like 5 times a week and ALWAYS left the room during floor series. The student was saying that she knew she was ok, and she wished she could break the habit, but she just kept on doing it. So during class, when this girl got up to make a break for it, my friend sat in front of the door, and the student turned around, went back to her mat, and finished the class without a problem. A stranger to the studio might have seen it and gone "hmmmmm...", but both the student and the teacher knew exactly what was going on.
We lock the OUTSIDE doors so people don't come in and steal you stuff from the locker room... but never the doors to the room!! | |
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| Nice post. I've taken 18 classes and love it, but the phrase 'dont drink the kool-aid' has crossed my mind quite a few times.
What I love about the class is having the optional guide, but really like doing and working the poses to my own satisfaction. Any 'rules' I've been exposed to have made the hair stand up on my neck. My favorite instructors are those who aren't on you about water, wiping sweat, or pushing you repeatedly through the postures.
You get out what you put in and that is only up to the individual. | |
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| I think I feel lucky for finding such a non aggressive place to do this...I was told to stick it out and lay on my back if it was too much, but jump back up and try as soon as I felt better. My first visit kicked my butt, but I stuck it out...and never felt like I was "forced" to stay in. If I am thirsty, I will take a sip of water, and was told by the instructor to do so. I drink less and less every class...but if I was EVER told not do drink water...I would be done. I am all about pushing myself to accomplish more and more...but that is myself...some people might not want to push as hard. | |
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| A part of the Conference, is not suitable. Class started to encourage people of all needs. I almost throw up when I started high, had to leave class. | |
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Drink your Bikram Kool-aid