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| I'm not asking whether you approve of vinyasa yoga per se. But I'm wondering if someone who practices alignment-focused yoga like Iyengar would somehow find their alignment suffering if they were to take a flow class once a week. Or twice a week.
I don't mean to ask if the alignment would suffer DURING the flow class. I know it does- but I mean: do you think it's likely one's overall alignment practice could or would start to slip? Assuming one still kept up the alignment practice, of course?
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| Diversity is much more than "nice". For yoga it is necessity.
However, for this post, terms might have to be clarified before answers rooted in clarity could be offered. There is vinyasa as a sanskrit term and there is a brand of yoga that has taken that term as well.
When I was overseas two years ago it became quite apparent that the term Vinyasa was not at all perceived there as it is here. They were not referencing Baron Baptiste or Beryl Bender Birch.
I believe there is vinyasa in almost all asana. Varying degrees of course. And I'm not therefore just talking about Surya Namaskar.
But on to your question. Which is "if I am taking a western asana class marketed as Vinyasa, will my sound alignment principles (from my alignment-based or Iyengar practice) generally suffer or be lost?". Is that accurate?
Depends on how you practice and how the particular flow class is instructed and how intermediate you are in your practice. If you're a beginning student you would be more susceptible to degradation of alignment (though it may not inherently be that way). If you are an intermediate asana student who has a strong sense of the alignments, their reasons, and you are rooted in dharana - it may be "okay" for your alignment.
I personally have not found western Vinyasa classes to help me one iota in my alignment. Though if I am self teaching in class I can discover or mine alignment in some of the poses as long as I am not too attached to the rush to move on that seems inherent in the pace of the practice.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-04-30 9:33 PM
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| So in the simplest terms, you're asking if your form is going to get sloppy if you continue taking this vinyasa class regularly. Uhhhh.... only if you let it, how's that? Personally, being a creature of form and alignment, I can't do ANYTHING without being aware of my form, and always have been that way, even before I knew myself as such. Some people are programmed like that, and some aren't, and it's all within varying degrees. So as a result of my hard-wire programming, either one of two things have always happened to me over the past 25 years that I've been exercising (yoga and otherwise): either I've gotten injured as a result of trying to maintain what I'd consider proper form during fast-paced activity, or I've stopped doing that activity. Simple as that. Cardio kickboxing was a prime example of the first. Needless to say, it eventually became the second as well. So now all I do is practice yoga in the Anusara style, which is a strict alignment-based practice similar to Iyengar, but allows for a slower and more mindful flow sort of class. That's what I teach as well. Not what I'd describe as a typical "Western style" flow class, though I teach at gyms under the label of "vinyasa yoga" or "advanced yoga" (the gyms' naming of the classes, NOT mine). Also, I still run. Forever aware of my form as I do that, though. I also sit, stand, walk, drive my car, hold my packages and bags, lay down to sleep, etc., all with awareness of my body's alignment at all times. I don't think I could tune out my body if I tried, 'cause it's always speaking so loudly to me. I suppose I should practice restorative yoga more toward that end, as well as get back to meditating regularly. Yeah, that would be a good thing, I know. Oh, so did I answer your question? Probably not. But I liked it, though.  | |
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| I find that - as a non-beginner - it can be helpful as *I* have to focus on alignment myself, and quickly. But doing *only* that wouldn't be so good. I think it greatly depends on the individual, though, and could be a worth experiment. | |
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| I understand your question I think. NO, alignment will not suffer if they take up Vinyasa practice, as long as the alignment practice is done very sincerely at other times. There is NO contradiction between alignment and vinyasa. They are actually supplementary or complimentary. The problem is : To do both is a challenge for a beginner. So, when they are done together in a single practice or in a single week, more attention or effort is needed. When continued for a prolonged time, they shall merge. Actually, that is advisable provided: you are ready for vinyasa and also whatever you are doing.
karmann - 2008-04-30 8:36 PM
I'm not asking whether you approve of vinyasa yoga per se. But I'm wondering if someone who practices alignment-focused yoga like Iyengar would somehow find their alignment suffering if they were to take a flow class once a week. Or twice a week.
I don't mean to ask if the alignment would suffer DURING the flow class. I know it does- but I mean: do you think it's likely one's overall alignment practice could or would start to slip? Assuming one still kept up the alignment practice, of course?
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| Unfortunately, many people practice vinyasa as though it were calisthenics. I think that the most important aspect of vinyasa is that you don't go any faster than you can keep good alignment in every pose. The movement (slowly and with attention) from pose to pose can be just as beneficial as the poses and should not be ignored. Life is a movement, not a static pose. The poses also need to be active, with extension/opening accompanying every inhale and relaxation/surrender accompanying every exhale. To me, a yoga asana session should be like one seamless slow motion dance, with the yogi flowering in each pose before gracefully moving to the next.
There must be union between the breath, the alignment and the movement for there to be union between the body, mind and spirit.
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Location: London, England | Hi Karmann,
Just to add, I was into Iyengar yoga for five years and found the two to be incompatible at first. Over time, I have realized that the two styles are only incompatible because of their faults-Iyengar yoga teaches form-but is the from always anatomically advantageous for the practicioner? Blatantly not. And a feature of astanga yoga is attention to movement-students are often not ready to lift throught the vinyasa safely, and probably should only be practiced after a pre-astanga course to prepare the student.
I believe that ideally, iyengar yoga would update it's ideas on what is good alignment, and that the rest of the yoga world could then use this as a benchmark. Then astanga yoga could perhaps then proceed to extend the practicioner's skill-if you can keep good alignment throughout movement, as well as throughout posture, then you are 'more advanced'- it is much more difficult to control movement than posture, neurologically.
So, to me, the answer is that assuming you align well in vinyasa, then it is indeed a valuable addition to the practice of yoga postures. Unfortunately, it's much easier to move unskillfully than to practice poetry in mortion 
Nick | |
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| I wish to thank jimg and Nick for a wonderful explanation and response. Thanks a lot. | |
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| I would take minor issue with Nick on the issue of the Iyengar alignment work being good for your body or not. If you find a senior enough teacher, he or she will be able to teach the appropriate adaptations for your particular body. Mr. Iyengar himself is noted for his medical classes & the therapeutic work is very individualized. The work is always growing and changing. I was just in a workshop where revolved triangle was taught with a wider stance than I previously learned - which is easier. Also a lot of foot modifications were given for people with various kinds of pain. The Ashtanga work which is the basis for the Western vinyasa flow classes does use some different alighment cues here and there but seems to me to be very similar - after all it's the same family of work (Krishnamacharya's). When I moved to vinyasa & Ashtanga practices as a supplement, I found that it was very important to soften the joints consciously while going through the flows. I also don't try to create perfect 90 degree angles with my knees, thighs and legs in some of the standing poses - I am generally working with a more open knee than I did in the Iyengar classes. (This is also because I had a knee injury.) If you are conscious while practicing of the main points of the Iyengar alignment work during the flow practice, you will protect the body. If you don't have time to set up a pose so that it works for you, take child's pose or standing forward bend for a break. Better vinyasa teachers will give alignment instructions. I like to look for a well rounded older teacher - knows good alignment & body therapy & modifications as well as how to put together flows. The younger hot dogs with a lot of enthusiasm & high levels of athletic ability are fun, but, frankly I don't want them touching me & I take what they say with a large grain of salt. Yoga is about looking within. So, if you can't look within & see what is going on with your body, you're not really practicing yoga in my opinion. It's got to feel right for you. I think vinyasa & ashtanga are a great addition to my practice. I was always short on stamina & strength. But I wouldn't do so well in those classes (for my body) if I didn't already know a lot from the Iyengar basis I had. When in doubt, go back to the source for solid help. A senior Iyengar teacher has way more in his/her bag of tricks than the average vinyasa teacher. Their training is much more rigorous & thorough. | |
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| I happened to pop into an ashtanga fundamentals class (again, the root of today's Western vinyasa) & asked the teacher about getting overheated & overstimulated occasionally during the classes. He replied that in the classic home practice, it would be very early in the morning when the body is cool, AND I would be following my own natural pace in the vinjayi breathing. That should keep me from getting overheated or overstimulated. Whereas in class, it is an artificial breath pattern created by a teacher, who is usually not doing the poses along with the class. That made a lot of sense to me. (Pardon if this aside is not really on-topic.) | |
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| Pardon again. I meant to say ujayi breathing. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Peggy,
That's alright, I like people taking minor issues with me, keeps me on my toes!
"Mr. Iyengar himself is noted for his medical classes & the therapeutic work is very individualized"
Maybe things have changed, but In my day, Mr Iyengar did not have any medical training, nor any medical knowledge-I believe this hasn't changed-so if he is running classes that claim to have a medical background, I would say that he is fraudulent. One of the things that made me abandon Iyengar yoga was becuase it beleives that it teaches good alignment so strongly that everyone else believes in it too-I began to discover that the rules of alignment set out by Iyengar are more appropiate to an alien species.
I believe that I may have once agreed with you, but when you listen to a true expert in human alignment, you begin to realize that much of what is promoted as common sense in the yoga world is ignorance masquarading as truth.
Nick | |
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| In my practice, the vinyasa flow has helped me connect with my breath more so than a slower, alignment based asana series. Then when I return to my 'homebase' which is more Iyengar style, I find I crave the time and attention to alignment so it may even improve my alignment. Short answer - it's all yoga. | |
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| Nick - 2008-05-03 11:27 PM
Hi Peggy,
but when you listen to a true expert in human alignment,
Nick
Hate to derail this thread but who would you consider a true expert in human alignment? Any references, books?
Thanks.
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Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 10:50 PM
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| BKS Iyengar's major contribution to the development of yoga asana practice has been his emphasis on finding proper alignment, NOT defining what proper alignment is. His work with alignment is a pioneering effort, NOT the final word.
Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 11:05 PM
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| As soon as we start blindly following instead of questioning, we are seeking easy answers instead of the truth. Nobody has the "truth" as far as alignment is concerned. We are either constantly learning or we are simply repeating someone else's dogma. Only the person who says "I don't know" has the capacity to learn.
Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 10:54 PM
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| given that there are variations in human anatomy, I would offer that there isn't a single "correct" alignment. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Victw,
I would say that an expert in optimal human posture has a profound knowledge of the joints, bones, muscles, and nerves that innervate them. They can then correct an individual's alignment so as to ensure that the exercise and activities which fill that person's life or day are less likely to degenerate the joints through 'over-use, mis-use, or dis-use.'
Iyengar's teaching of alignment is not built on this knowledge, in fact, I would say that his rules of alignment appear to be built on geometry, rather than anatomy-so you need a ruler, not a doctorate, to understand his principles
It really is difficult to explain where I am coming from, I only wish you had all sat in classes with me so that we could discuss this more eloquently. I'm not sure if there's any use in giving a list of all the people in the world who I think are important to our understanding of human alignment, but I now think it's a complete joke that people in the yoga world regard him as the world leader in alignment principles-in any convention discussing good posture, he would be laughed off the stage. Hang on, you know I think that already
But if pressed, I would say that for me, people that have helped me understand human movement more than anyone else are David Maskill, Don Grieve, Stu MacGill, Craig Leibenson,
Nigel Palastanga, to name just a few. Some of these people were my tutors, others are authors or chiropractors. Each one displays a vast wealth of knowledge. Amazing folk.
I hesitate to recommend a book, because one book doesn't do it-you need a number of teachers to take you down different avenues, ideally.
Just as an exercise to try to underline my thinking, let's take supta virasana, a posture used in Iyengar yoga as well as in other forms.
Let's suppose that I am an athletic coach, and one of my athletes has been having trouble with an old back injury. We are trying to figure out why this injury has returned. Then she demonstrates this posture. I start jumping up and down The way Iyengar teaches this posture is to simply lie down on the floor or sit on a block-either way, you are not progressing into the posture by using the hips, but are progressing into the posture by putting shear forces and massive compression into the joints at the rear of the lumbar spine-both a recipe for disaster. On this single posture alone, any one who knows about the human body knows that Iyengar knows diddly squat. Yet we continue to put him on a pedestral-amazing-people will start believing in God next
I realize that many of you won't appreciate my thoughts on this subject-I can assure you, I was dismayed when I found out that Iyengar was responsible for me passing on bad movement principles both to my own body and that of my students-it's an absolute disgrace, in my opinion.
Nick | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Nick - I am still catching up on the board so I don't have time to debate, but either things have changed in the Iyengar world or you had teachers who did not pay much attention while they were in Pune. The modifications, variations and teaching around supta virasana are legion. It is a total PITA to teach to a large class as almost everyone needs help with it. In other words, the Iyengar instructions are not simply to lie down or use a block. Got another example? | |
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| Nick - 2008-05-05 3:06 AM
Just as an exercise to try to underline my thinking, let's take supta virasana, a posture used in Iyengar yoga as well as in other forms.
Let's suppose that I am an athletic coach, and one of my athletes has been having trouble with an old back injury. We are trying to figure out why this injury has returned. Then she demonstrates this posture. I start jumping up and down The way Iyengar teaches this posture is to simply lie down on the floor or sit on a block-either way, you are not progressing into the posture by using the hips, but are progressing into the posture by putting shear forces and massive compression into the joints at the rear of the lumbar spine-both a recipe for disaster.
Actually, what you describe as the Iyengar method is exactly how a senior Iyengar instructor (one who trains and does exams for other prospective Iyengar teachers) taught me NOT to do for this pose. Instead, he taught that going into the pose (and saying in it, for that matter) is a very active process, comes from the hips and thighs and front abdominals (all have to actively resist gravity) and from the work of the side abdominals to lengthen the torso as well as the correct tilt of the pelvis to avoid putting compression on the sacrum and lumbar spine. The first thing we were taught about this pose is not just to lie down on the floor.
I know that we get our knowledge of different styles approaches to different things from a wide variety of sources, and I am in no way discounting your experience. But I am curious where you were taught this as an Iyengar approach. | |
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| Hey Nick: I tend to understand and also agree to what you wrote only to some extent. However, Iyengar alignment is NOT based only on Geometry. Yes, I think he wanted to perfect postures to look geometrically perfect, initially in his own case, and then may be in His instruction.
But, actually, his perfection of pose comes by watching the body as he calls or called at one time "Intelligence" flowing through the body. And, there is no doubt that awareness is fully flowing in his postures. That is NOT a forced geometric alignment.
However, I agree with some or you or whoever, that Iyengar Yoga and Medicals are two terms that should not be used together. There is NOTHING medicals.
Also, from your own posts, I shall like to state or even prove that (without any blame or loss to you) your yoga practice is possibly based on your Correct anatomical understanding. But, the lacking in this practice is Yoga is NOT an Anatomical practice. And, this statement of mine extends to more than 50 percent of posts on this board.
The problem is that Sincer Yoga Students, especially in the Western world are practicing Yoga from Body point of view and brings Anatomical discussion into picture. I am not stating that should not or that must not happen.
What I am stating is "Yoga is Beyond the Anatomy". And, therefore, usage of terms:
alignment, anatomy, physiotherapy and Yoga should not be done in a Package.
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| kulkarnn - 2008-05-05 12:34 PM
alignment, anatomy, physiotherapy and Yoga should not be done in a Package.
why? I'd like to understand the reason behind this "should" better. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Glenda and everybody,
That's great-things have changed then-but I was taught this by Kofi Busia amongst others-a senior Iyengar teacher who now teaches in America. Here's a few pictures of the pose-all done in a most untherapeutic manner for the low back:
http://tinyurl.com/6olujc
Can you point me to any articles/pictures detailing the modern way of practicing this asana?
I guess another example might be triangle, or twisted triangle-in triangle, the emphasis on keeping the two hip joint in alignment with the legs, rather than mobilizing the hip joints to prevent hyper-extension of the lumbar spine, and in twisted triangle, where the lumbar spine is flexed and the SI joints are de-stabilized-of course, these observations are only from my own experience, but nothing I've seen lately corrects my views (I'm hard to please )
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
I see your points, but surely, if we don't make the most of antomical knowledge, then isn't our yoga practice going to be less than beneficial to our physical health, which will then affect our spiritual well-being-I mean, I know hatha yoga has it's own aims and objectives outside of the physical realm, but we are using this realm as a vehicle to spiritual 'health?'
So, in my view, it is important not to use this spiritual aspect of yoga to disguise the fact that if we do our practice in a way that is not conducive to optimum health, it has no bearing on the spiritual objectives. For instance, one of the features of samadha is a sensory flood of the central nervous system-so, in my classes, I use my knowledge of the body's joints and muscles to give the student the greatest amount of nerve conduction from specific joints and muscles (proprioception)-thereby, hopefully, aiding their path to those bliss states. Ialso use my knowledge of nerve receptors which are responsible for noiciception (pain signals) to teach asana in a way which does not stimulate these receptors. Proprioception not noiciception!
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2008-05-05 1:38 PM
Hi Glenda and everybody,
That's great-things have changed then-but I was taught this by Kofi Busia amongst others-a senior Iyengar teacher who now teaches in America. Here's a few pictures of the pose-all done in a most untherapeutic manner for the low back:
Can you point me to any articles/pictures detailing the modern way of practicing this asana?
I guess another example might be triangle, or twisted triangle-in triangle, the emphasis on keeping the two hip joint in alignment with the legs, rather than mobilizing the hip joints to prevent hyper-extension of the lumbar spine, and in twisted triangle, where the lumbar spine is flexed and the SI joints are de-stabilized-of course, these observations are only from my own experience, but nothing I've seen lately corrects my views (I'm hard to please )
Nick
I don't have any articles - it's merely what I was taught in class. I agree with you, though, the primary picture you linked is frightening in the appearance on the lumbar spine! It makes me wonder how much of the difference truly comes from teacher to teacher. 
As for triangle... it's been a long time since my stricter Iyengar training, and I know that I am now taught very specifically NOT to "square the hips" (so that they are not in the same line as the feet) due to the flexion of the spine and the placement of the sacrum in both the regular and revolved pose), so I can't comment with high confidence on what my traditional Iyengar teacher had taught us. (I can try to check my notes from my intro teaching class... If I can find them. ;) ) It really is fascinating to hear the differences, so thank you for the discussion! | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Tiffany,
And thank you for being open-minded so that we can debate
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| Dear Nick: Actually, I respect your knowledge of anatomy, etc. In fact, if I myself have a doubt in that direction, I shall not feel any hesitation to contact you, even travel to UK for that.
Yes, knowledge of anatomy, and whatever you write is extremely useful Health and Fitness. But, the problem is that Yoga is currently used for Fitness, and less for Health. And, some people who are senios in the Yoga Field including World Famous Yoga Teachers have a wrong notion that Yoga Exercise shall provide them perfect Health and Fitness. This is actually NOT true if you see their own health and appearance.
This is because Health does not depend only on exercise, alignment and fitness. It depends on many other things. Such teachers then tell their students such things as a) as long as they take vegetarian diet, they shall do great with Yoga b) as long as they compliment Yoga with Herbal Remedies, they shall do great with Yoga. (Yoga meaning Yoga Exercise.)
Also, what happens is: When a student has much poorer health than the teacher, the student gets much impressed thinking that the teacher is very healthy and knows everything (as you correctly wrote in your post above). And, they follow all the things of that teacher rather than only what that teacher is expert it.
For example, I can state this: more than 50 percent of the World Famous Yoga Teachers do NOT know anything or less than high school level kid about Nutrition. The reason they are great is: a) they are better than their students b) they have some ethically good habits of not drinking, not smoking, vegetarianism, one partner, etc. due to their being born Hindu, or whatever. c) etc. However, that does not mean they know nutrition well.
So, yes, I agree with you that knowledge of anatomy is essential for health and fitness. However, the true practice of Yoga deals ONLY with mind. Yes, Hatha Yoga has physical practices that lead a student into Meditative practices. But, please look around and you shall find that great Hatha Exercise practitioners of today are really not Hatha Yogis, they are only Exercise practiioners out of Hatha Yoga. Also, later they are not depicting Meditative lineage.
Once the Meditative lineage is reached, the practitioner does not necessarily keep us with physical health and fitness practices. That depends on situation.
When people use terms such as Vinyasa, Ashtanga, etc. they mean a style of doing Exercise. They do not actually mean 8 limbs of Yoga. When they practice 8 limbs in today's world, they interprete the 8 limbs in a way different than that are stated in the Sutras, they explain them with Physical Postures, Social Behaviors, etc. which are the topics of today.
Anyway, even with my explanation above, I truely respect your explanations and am not in any way contradicting the value of them. Only thing is :
Yoga is NOT to be taken as Medicals, Fitness, Physical ways, etc. In Yoga, the aim is to train the mind. When that is given prime importance, one is doing Yoga. Also, to make a blatant statement against the opinon of famous Yoga Teachers:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain physical health perfection only by doing Yoga Exercises. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Nick - I spent a lot of time changing your link to a tiny url so once again, little time to chat. It would be great if people here could either learn to make a link (which I still haven't learned myself!) or use tinyurl.com . It is really hard to read pages where one must scroll sideways constantly.
I am not fond of most of those photos of supta virasana, though the guy on the heart bench looks ok to me. And the dog is cute My guess is that those students showing the pose without props would typically be corrected in an actual class (lengthen the lumbar, take the protruding ribs back etc.), though we are sometimes encouraged to do these poses without our usual support as a learning tool. When we constantly take mountains of props to make the pose "comfortable" we lose the sense of where we need to go next to move toward the classical expression of the pose. Those women are learning a lot about how they need to work in the lumbar and it will improve their pose in the long run. This is not something that we do with beginners, of course. | |
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| Even "anatomical people" cannot agree on some very "interesting" issues.
Put a kinesiologist and an anatomist in the same cage and see what happens.
Relative to Iyengar, and I'm sharing my perspective based on my teacher who was born as a result of Iyengar and studied with him from age 7, much of his asana work is very sound and comes from his own body. As I understand it, he had some major therapeutic issues which he found ways of resolving. In fact the lower back series we do as part of Purna Yoga was originally devised by Iyengar (then refined) to help my teacher with his own back issue.
There are, of course, some things that have had to change over time. For example on the cover of Yoga: The Path to Holistic Health I believe there's a photo showing the arms up and apart in Vira I. It has been asserted that the pose should not be done in this way for those who have heart issues as the diaphragm pressures the heart. So it was changed. Some things have not been changed and my teacher himself has varied the work based on his teacher's teachings AND his work in his own body AND his study of Applied Anatomy.
So for me relative to anatomy there's a time to back off in the assertions. After all, it is applied anatomy. There are other ways to become attached to anatomy, bio-mechanics, movement, without yoga. So I'm a yoga teacher who applies sound anatomy. I am not a kinesiologist who teaches yoga nor am I an anatomist who teaches yoga.
We've reviewed several anatomy books in our training and while some of them know anatomy quite well they do not know yoga at all. Choose carefully.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-05-07 11:53 AM
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| Reclining Hero:
I leave the natural curve in my back all the time.
I've had teachers stand on my thighs without any trouble.
I'm sure I could flatten my low back but what would that do, besides make the knees more at risk?
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| Although I sometimes do supta virasana (reclining hero) myself, I do not teach it in a class setting because I think that it is too dangerous for both the knees and /or the lower back for many people. I choose not to waste the amount of class time it takes to get everyone doing this pose safely. | |
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| They teach it in Bikram class everyday without props and everyone seems fine... | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Essentially, in yoga asana in general (and you are free to disagree and I am sure someone will...) we need to open what is closed, lengthen what is shortened, create space where there is tightness and create firmness where there is laxity. While I have seen a change in emphasis in the last 11 years of Iyengar study, I believe the principles are the same. For example, I hear much more about compacting the hips and keeping the upper arm bone in the socket than I used to hear. Increasing flexibility is being replaced with increasing strength. These are not new concepts, but I believe our western interpretation of the teachings may have led to some problems that are now being seen and corrected. Our incessant desire to lengthen the hamstrings, for example, may have led some to over-open the hips and create problems there. Is this BKS Iyengar's "fault" or the faulty understanding of his students who then passed it on to others? Will my poor students copy my own mistakes and possibly have problems because of it? Very likely. All I can do is my best. If I find an example of anatomical perfection, I will drag him/her to class with me to demo. Wish me luck! 
ETA - and I do think that alignment in vinyasa is MUCH harder to achieve than alignment in static poses.. Just so we can keep some semblance of the op.. | |
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| tourist - 2008-05-07 5:59 PM
If I find an example of anatomical perfection, I will drag him/her to class with me to demo.
i think this might be the career i've been looking for 
i think if i practiced purely vinyasa based asanas, at that point my alignment in static poses would start to suffer. any less and i'd prolly be in the clear, hmm?
good points, Glenda...
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| hnia - 2008-05-07 12:46 PM
They teach it in Bikram class everyday without props and everyone seems fine...
Many people (especially older people) badly injure their knees doing this pose at Bikram's and many other people hurt their backs. There was a Yoga Journal article about three people's journey with yoga. One was a man who had badly injured his knees at Bikram's with this pose. I personally know two people (one a yoga teacher) who have had knee problems as a result of this pose (their diagnosis, not mine). I have myself experienced the lower back problems with this pose, especially when done in the way it is at Bikram's. People who are injured at Bikram usually don't come back, so you probably don't hear about their injuries. As a teacher of non-Bikram yoga, you often hear about these injuries from new students. | |
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| I found this thread very interesting. I'm new to this forum, and somewhat new to yoga as well. My first experience was with heated power/vinyasa style (Baron Baptiste inspired), and I swore by it since I started back in October. Interestingly, when I changed locations for the summer and couldn't find a vinyasa class that I could truly commit to like I could back home, I decided to try Iyengar, since I knew nothing about it. After my first class, I wasn't sure what to think because it was so vastly different. But I made myself go back and found that it was the perfect compliment to my vinyasa practice. I guess I'm coming from this situation from the opposite perspective, but my feelings tend to be towards a balance between the flow yoga and Iyengar. My Iyengar instructor has a way of bringing my awareness to my alignment in each position we practice, and while it may not be fast paced like my flow class, I've definitely improved my tree pose, my warrior poses, and just my standing poses.
I would assume that the reverse would have some benefit too, starting with Iyengar and adding some vinyasa classes in. I really like the movement of vinyasa, the flow, and the linking of breath to movement, but it's true that not much attention is payed to your body's alignment. The simplest things like lifting your inner ankle while in the warrior poses, or compacting your legs in shoulder stand, or keeping your knees together and reaching forward in backbends are overlooked and often under-emphasized. But by going from an alignment-based yoga into a flow style, I think you'd have a fun time adjusting. The excitement in vinyasa (at least for me) is being able to work with your body as it moves, to be aware of where you are placing your feet, where you intend to move next. Maybe your alignment might suffer in the beginning, but proprioception isn't something you forget. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Welcome Jen - yes, Iyengar compliments vinyasa-based yoga very well, especially in the beginning. When I look at some of my beginner students and imagine them trying to do vinyasa when they can't touch the floor without kneeling or remember which poses have straight or bent legs (even as I am standing beside them saying "Legs straight!" I cannot imagine them trying to flow from pose to pose without damaging some body part or other. Personally, I know that with my own alignment issues, I would have injured myself early on without the attention to details in Iyengar.
Enjoy your classes! | |
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| I think the best view I've heard was from a hard-core Ashtangi who said that they also took Iyengar classes as they they saw them as their yoga theory class.
Fee | |
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| i'm new to yoga but it seems like iyengar is for like old people and the vinyasa thing is for the young people until you hurt yourself in the v thing and then you go to the iyengar thing because you are old or hurt. i guess for young people, i is pretty boring | |
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| Look deeper. | |
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| SharonL - 2008-07-18 7:35 PM
i'm new to yoga but it seems like iyengar is for like old people and the vinyasa thing is for the young people until you hurt yourself in the v thing and then you go to the iyengar thing because you are old or hurt. i guess for young people, i is pretty boring
brilliant!
...
but why even go to the trouble of hurting yourself?
young people just have no attention span, so its hard for them to stay in poses for more than 5 breaths | |
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| Iyengar is boring but a necessary discipline if you want to do vinyasa with good form (attention to detail) and therefore without injuries. You need to first learn the notes, and then learn to play scales.
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| Boring:
"I am so overstimulated that any stimulation less than my tolerance feels as though nothing at all is happening in my life whatsoever." | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Jim - I would disagree that Iyengar is boring. It very much depends on the individual. I have found it endlessly fascinating from Day One myself, but then I am a Virgo and it appeals to my sense of detail. I also practiced yoga in the 60's and had a gazillion questions arise, even as a scatter-brained teen, about how to best achieve the full expression of the poses. Iyengar classes answered all those questions and more. So, not always boring. 
As far as the musical analogy, I suppose we could look at it this way: probably the best way to become a serious musician in any genre is to learn the notes and scales first and the melody when one is ready. However, the world is full of people who have had a fervent desire to play music and just have to jump in and do it. My DD is one of these people. At about age 3 she had someone show her how to play a nursery rhyme on our old piano and she just took off from there. I admit that it did give her teachers absolute fits trying to correct her technique in later years and her odd ball fingering did not cause permanent injuries (what's the piano equivalent of full lotus? ) but for her to begin playing with scales and finger exercises would have been disastrous. Eric Clapton learned by copying what he heard on records - not that I am equating my lovely DD with a musical "god" but still...
So I think I am arguing both sides here. But essentially, I'd say that people have to start where they start and I would hope that they don't "do vinyasa until you get injured and then go to Iyengar," though for some, that will be the way they have to go.
An added thought - can you imagine advocating that system in any other activity? "Sure you can scuba dive. Just go with someone who can instruct you as you go along until you burst an eardrum and then go take some lessons."  | |
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| Wow! I want to state the following three statements, in response to this reckless statement, quoted below. Please think carefully and also note that I am NOT an Iyengar Style Yoga Teacher. So, there is NO affiliation to Iyengar Style organization while writing these statements.
a) I am amazed at the first line of the following quote. Because, it is interesting to see that i) hundreds and thousands of people all over the world seem to happily continue the practice, with benefit, for a very prolonged time, and the people come from all sorts of backgrounds and ages, ii) governments of certain countries have gone to the extent of awarding Mr. Iyengar for his efforts to benefit the fitness almost at a mankind level, and iii) the style is NOT only not boring, but it is so interesting that the Yoga things that are not part of the style are actually overlooked by its practitioners due to it being so attractive.
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
c) In the world, there are many kinds of people. Those who do Vinyasa without getting bored, while NOT paying attention to details (actually this will be a majority), and those who do while paying attention to details. There are also people who enjoy music without paying attention to details and enjoy it (I think this also is a majority) and those who pay attention to detail. There are also lot of persons who attend music concerts or performances and enjoy it without getting bored, while actually not understanding the music (I am sure this is a majority and also world famous artists actually suggest the average audience not to worry about understanding it, but just to enjoy it), and there are those who enjoy it while knowing details.
And there are those who may get bored because they know the details and they find that what is actually played is a rubbish. Or, what is actually performed under the name of Vinyas is only a pose to pose play without details while damaging the joints.
OM ShantiH
jimg - 2008-07-20 12:24 AM
Iyengar is boring but a necessary discipline if you want to do vinyasa with good form (attention to detail) and therefore without injuries. You need to first learn the notes, and then learn to play scales.
Edited by kulkarnn 2008-07-20 2:20 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| kulkarnn - 2008-07-20 11:15 AM
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
I love this Neel - this is why children have to be coaxed and urged to practice scales. They are to young and immature to see the bigger picture. If we are lucky they will thank us when they are older for all of our coaxing. | |
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| I switched to Iyengar from Sivananda and have never regretted it. Yes, I miss the level of pranayama and specific meditations which is why I mix the two styles at home. I would have missed so much had I not switched :
- learning the difference between being in a pose and working the pose
- how to do the poses without crippling myself in the process
- how to modify the poses safey to suit my particular body's constraints and issues
- how a given pose can be performed with different emphasis (e.g. to open the chest for pranayama or to rest the brain, or to exercise the inner organs, etc, etc, etc)
- doing partner work (which I love with a passion)
- developing the most incredible circle of friends (my Sivananda class never socialised)
Bored? Never! There's far too much to learn!
Fee | |
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| Thanks Sister Tourist. If my mother, who passed away in body form in the year 2001, comes back and slaps me in front of the Brother Bruce, I shall always thank her. Her slapping aligned me very well. Oh God thanks for giving me a slapping mother.
tourist - 2008-07-21 10:31 AM
kulkarnn - 2008-07-20 11:15 AM
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
I love this Neel - this is why children have to be coaxed and urged to practice scales. They are to young and immature to see the bigger picture. If we are lucky they will thank us when they are older for all of our coaxing. | |
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| I guess that using the words "boring" in the same sentence as Iyengar hits some raw nerves! Sorry if I offended.
Neel-The palm tree goes with the wind and withstands the hurricane. The fir tree stands tall and proud, and is blown over with the first strong wind.
Is Iyengar a god or a saint? Is his yoga infallible?
Learning your scales is necessary to play music. Learning the details of the poses is necessary to do yoga. They are only the starting point. Neither the scales nor the poses are the music! Once the scales (or the poses) become an automatic reflex, the actual music can start. That music flows through you and is not a product of conscious thought. It does not come to you by following another. You find it in yourself; not by effort or force (or slapping), but by letting it unfold.
When Beethoven was a young man, he studied with Haydn. He copied Haydn's style and wrote poor music. He was merely an echo of someone else. Once he found his own unique voice, he became BEETHOVEN and wrote some of the greatest and most sublime music ever written. That unique voice was not static. It flowed and Beethoven continued to develop in new and deeper ways until his death.
There were many other composers at that time (like Danzi or Dittersdorf) who wrote scales accompanied by chords in perfect form, but no real music. They copied the norms of their day and became accomplished in them, but never got in touch with their own inner voices.
We, as yogis, can make this choice: to be echoes of someone else or become our own unique self, however humble. The gods do not smile on copies, no matter how accomplished. The gods smile on those who find and are true to their unique inner voice.
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| Dear jimg: Please read my post again carefully. And, then the following:
- NO Iyengar is NOT God to me and in my opinion, NOT even close to it. Actually, even the style itself has some essential elements of Yoga Science, NOT taught. But, what is there is Great and Worthy of Praise.
- I do not know what infallible means in your statements. The correct things (which you yourself are advising from the style to do) are infallible. At least, what one things correct should be infallible to that person for that time of thinking.
- Your comments on music below, including Beethoven, etc. are all accepted and appreciated by myself. But, that does NOT make Iyengar Style boring, as you have stated. Exactly as you have written, when one takes learning from a NON Boring Style, one can develop their own personality using that knowledge fully or partially.
- I do NOT teach Iyengar Style. I studied with him in 1985 for only 5 months. I do not feel, from my own experience, that it is boring, and it stopped me from my own development in anyway. I visit the respected BKS each year.
- Yes, I respect him. Respect does not mean I have to copy him, or take him as God. However, I know personaly some whom I shall take as GOD, as I have found that to be my Infalliable Thinking.
- And, in my response to Sister Tourist, while quoting my mother's slapping me, I did not mean slapping by a Yoga Teacher. My mother's slapping was of different nature. Even if I am NOT wrong, and she slaps me today, I would more than welcome it. I know for sure that it helped me. I am not advising mothers to slap their children, I never even once slapped mine. (In the next post under this same thread, I am going to give an anecdote of mine with the respected BKS. I never told this before, but I shall do that next time.)
OM ShantiH
jimg - 2008-07-21 1:05 PM
I guess that using the words "boring" in the same sentence as Iyengar hits some raw nerves! Sorry if I offended.
Neel-The palm tree goes with the wind and withstands the hurricane. The fir tree stands tall and proud, and is blown over with the first strong wind.
Is Iyengar a god or a saint? Is his yoga infallible?
Learning your scales is necessary to play music. Learning the details of the poses is necessary to do yoga. They are only the starting point. Neither the scales nor the poses are the music! Once the scales (or the poses) become an automatic reflex, the actual music can start. That music flows through you and is not a product of conscious thought. It does not come to you by following another. You find it in yourself; not by effort or force (or slapping), but by letting it unfold.
When Beethoven was a young man, he studied with Haydn. He copied Haydn's style and wrote poor music. He was merely an echo of someone else. Once he found his own unique voice, he became BEETHOVEN and wrote some of the greatest and most sublime music ever written. That unique voice was not static. It flowed and Beethoven continued to develop in new and deeper ways until his death.
There were many other composers at that time (like Danzi or Dittersdorf) who wrote scales accompanied by chords in perfect form, but no real music. They copied the norms of their day and became accomplished in them, but never got in touch with their own inner voices.
We, as yogis, can make this choice: to be echoes of someone else or become our own unique self, however humble. The gods do not smile on copies, no matter how accomplished. The gods smile on those who find and are true to their unique inner voice.
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| Hi Neel,
Thank you for clarifying your "slapping" remark. Let me clarify my "boring" remark. I also respect Mr. Iyengar and believe that he has done much for the art of yoga. I studied Iyengar yoga seriously for two years with senior teachers and have attended several week long Iyengar teacher trainings and studied all his books. I have learnt a lot from his yoga system. I have also moved on and therefore for me, going back to scales without music is boring. I still practice scales on the French horn daily and do some "Iyengar style" yoga daily as the attention to details is always important. I feel that with the attention to detail, one often misses the big picture. I also feel that yoga, like music or life, is movement or flow. I think that the principles of Iyengar yoga when applied to a more flowing style are the best of both worlds, the detail and the flow at the same time. Each by itself is missing an important component.
Namaste,
Jim | |
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| Darling jimg: My Slapping term came in order to respond to Tourist stating coaxing the kids. Unfortunately, some or you might mix it with Slapping of Dry Nerves. Therefore, I explained. However, your usage of "Boring" was, in my opinion, not appropriate. Your current explanation is so good and I wish that is what you would have given then. When I make "Anti-Heat-Ed" arguments, I always show my respect to Bikram!!!
But, I have no hard feelings now, since anyone who reads "boring" post, also shall read your "sweet" post.
Love and Peace | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| jim - absolutely no offense taken. I do always feel obligated to clarify things for the many lurkers we have here on the forums. Much like the Bikramites who feel people need the full picture, I like to dispel some of the myths around my chosen form of yoga.
I think your last music comments very much agree with my thoughts. Beethoven perhaps didn't have the "perfect" start to creating his own music but he did it the way he felt he needed to do it at the time. If he didn't take the path he took, he would not have been Beethoven. So people need to start yoga where they are with the understanding they have - dvd, book, maybe even a "bad" teacher or two. But most of us will not become yoga prodigies and will forever play scales and chords for our own small level of enlightenment and joy. And that is ok.
As for studying Iyengar for two years - that's great and I am sure it was useful to your understanding of your yoga. Though I will say that 2 years barely scratches the surface, really. Even BKS is still constantly learning and is still passing his learning on to us. Also, as the west becomes more and more receptive to the spiritual side of yoga, he has urged us to do deeper study and practice in that realm. For a very small example - we often chat the sutras as part of workshops now, which was certainly not done even 10 years ago.
As for being infallible - not even close and I believe he would agree.
I may ocme back to this later but I have to go to the dentist now. | |
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| Iyengar teachers and practitioners practice vinyasa. it is just not EVERYDAY. many people who do power yoga and pattabhi jois style ashtanga go to iyengar classes to improve their alignment and to learn how to work in different ways in the pose.
it will not necessarily be detrimental to your alignment. that depends on you;) | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| All this alignment stuff is pointless. Maybe some good short term benefits though. But everyone is made differently,of different shapes,sizes,weight etc. In the same way one cannot teach a baby to be properly aligned, he discovers it himself through experience. If you were to try to properly align a baby, you would do him more harm than good. So dont do it to adults!!! Its just as silly and limited. It is basically for people who have no understanding of the neuromuscularskeletal system and have a shallow understanding of man. In the same way when one sees an alopathic doctor for a headache, the doctor may reccomend pain killers, rather than dealing with the root cause of a headache. It is the same with alignment. poor posture or position cannot be curedby a tablet or correcting alignment. | |
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| vibes - 2009-09-06 4:04 PM
poor posture or position cannot be curedby a tablet or correcting alignment.
posture=alignment
its a good thing you're here to tell us how it is | |
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Vinyasa-detrimental?