|
|
| Power yoga and pregnancy. It is my opinion that power yoga is not the optimal
practice for pregnancy, especially for beginners. However, I don't like to turn
students away, so I modify the poses for them so that they can still take my
class. However, I still feel that power yoga in general is too intense for
pregnancy, and personally I would not practice if I were pregnant. I always let
my students know this, but find ones that still want to take my class, although
there are many great prenatal classes or more gentle classes in the city.
Just last week, I had a begining class with 30 people in it. And 5
minutes late a had a 6 month pregnant woman enter class. I didn't see her until
her mat was already laid out in the front of the room, at which point I had to
discreetly approach her and tell her that there would be some things that she
would not be able to do that day and I would let her know when the poses came.
She had never practiced yoga before and had heard it was good for pregnancy,
however didn't understand the differences in styles. After class I spent a long
time talking with her about the different options she had and poses that she
should avoid during pregnancy. Another woman who was in the class heard us
talking and said "I'm pregnant too". This woman had come to class a few times
prior. I was surprised she didn't tell me before class and felt bad that I
directed her to do poses that I beleive are dangerous for pregnancy, but she
wasn't showing at all and I had no idea. I am considering making it a policy
for pregnant women to meet with me 15 minutes before their first class so that
I can inform them well, and also having them bring a note from their doctor. (however making policies like this isn't easy as a work at a large university where I am not really in charge of my program.) Even if I create that policy, I also have the issue of it being ignored and having new students who are pregnant come in late or not inform me. After their first class I have each new student fill out a form detailing injuries and medical conditions, but I am still iniformed until after they finish their first class. I would obviously prefer if NO students walked in late or right before class, especially the new ones... but i feel like my program would loose a lot of potential growth and I would reach less people with yoga, if I shut the door 5 minutes before class.
Do you think I should have pregnant women take another class all together. I feel like this makes the most sense, as generally 50 percent or more of what I do in my class, they need to avoid. Well, I feel bad turning anyone away...I want what is best for their health and their baby's health which would be a more gentle paced class.
What do you think?
| |
| | |
| It sounds like you are handling it as best you can. It's tough when you are not running your own program. I would have a talk with your supervisor to make sure you are on the same page about you having final authority. Some facilities won't even let you ask about people's conditions because it could be construed as medical advice, which is absurd I think, but they're just trying to avoid lawsuits.
You're right, some people will not let you know, and at the end of the day it's their responsibility.
In fact, I taught a core strengthening class at a government facility and one of the women told me in private she was pregnant, but she could not let her colleagues know, so I gave her lots of modifications and we came up with a cover about an injury (I will spare you my rant about the absurd pressures and discrimination in the corporate world).
I don't think a power class is a good one for a pregnant woman. I taught a power class for the first couple of months but I dialed it back and did a lot more verbal instruction rather than physical demonstration. However, I would not recommend this for someone without years of yoga practice.
At 6 months along, yes she should be in a prenatal class instead. Many people say to avoid yoga completely in months 1 -3 because that's the greatest risk of miscarriage. I don't agree with that, but I think that time is the right time to begin modifications, even though the belly is not yet big. (Frankly the early miscarriage issues have more to do with birth defects than anything the mother really does, other than extreme behavior of course).
I have some reasons for why women should take a prenatal class and why it is different on my site if this helps: http://8thelementyoga.com/prenatal/ | |
| | |
| This is a tough topic. Some people will swear up and down that it is perfectly fine to have a frisky practice when pregnant. And I've read a story here and there from someone who says "I did and everything went fine".
I think that perspective, while it may be the end result 95% of time, it misses the point. No one should be hurt in yoga practice. And that 5% risk to one fetus is enough to me. But that is just me. I advise students who are pregnant in a way that fits with my training, background, and understanding. I do not allow them to do things in my class that I believe are deleterious to a developing fetus and growing mommy. They may do as they please in another class with another teacher or at home on their own. But I do not teach in a way that would facilitate injury.
It sounds to me like you've already got a position on this and you merely need some support. And I'll gladly give it. Tell them those things that you can live with as a teacher. What you share should create a feeling of harmony in your body. If it does not, then it creates disharmony and rarely do good things come directly from disharmony.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-02-28 12:12 AM
| |
| | |
| if you think it's best that they not practice in your class, then it is appropriate to make a policy that states this. put it in your marketing, announce it at the beginning of class, and provide a list of other prenatal yoga providers in the area that they can check out if these people show up for class.
| |
| | |
| I have pregnant students show up for my class but they don't usually come back.
| |
| | |
| Anecdotally, a teacher friend told me about another teacher friend who did full inversions throughout her pregnancy. Her baby was 2 months premature. Now, there are no studies showing cause and effect, but purnayoga is right. It's not worth the risk. There will be plenty of time after the baby is born for headstands and during pregnancy it's important to remind women that asana is only 1/8th of the raja yoga equation.
| |
| | |
| i have anecdotal evidence to the contrary, and a local teacher here who teaches prenatal (and is from india and iyengar trained), teaches head stand throughout pregnancy to help alleviate many pregnancy problems and help women balance and strengthen for birth.
it can be a very effective tool. | |
| | |
| I'd just like to point out that I did not take a position on inversions and pregnancy in my earlier post. | |
| | |
| i don't think that anyone said that you did.
but, i do have to ask--can you give an example of a yoga posture or practice that would harm a developing fetus and explain how that posture or practice would cause harm and what kind(s) of harm those practices would cause a fetus?
----
beyond that, i think that one of the things that i find frustrating about the prenatal classes that i've attended thus far is that everyone complains about their pregnancy (pains and fears mostly), and yet the teachers offer little by way of solutions to either situations (utilizing yoga to overcome common pregnancy discomforts and symptoms--none of which i have btw anyway--or utilizing yoga to overcome fears and other concerns) other than "now we can support each other in our fear and misery."
except that, i am not experiencing any fears or physical discomforts, nor do i have any expectation to, and when i do experience something, i utilize yoga postures and practices to overcome these discomforts and fears, even though the teacher or what have you may assert that the posture is contraindicated even though there is no explanation as to why that might be contraindicated.
the other aspect of the prenatal yoga classes that i've attended so far that i dislike is a great disrespect for differences.
I do not go to a doctor or midwife for my pregnancy or birth care. i am taking full responsibility for this process, which i consider to be healthy and natural and not a medical situation which requires monitoring. if i experience something that i feel requires medical attention, then i would seek medical attention. but i do not consider pregnancy itself a medical emergency or situation that requires constant monitoring.
in the prenatal classes that i've attended thus far, i have been asked to share my birth hopes and fears. i do not have birth fears--and i am chastized for being "in denial" and whatever else. when sharing my hopes, i tend to be vague, not going into the details of my birth plans.
some people have pushed, after i assert that i'm planning a homebirth. at times, this is chastized by the other women and the teacher, and other times, the teacher presses and asks who my midwife is, or why i'm not using a birth center instead, and of course i get the accusation of "you're putting the importance of your experience over the health of the baby!"
these coersive, fear-mongering tactics are not what i want from a yoga class, which i believe is intended to develop a community of mothers (new and experienced) so that we can rely on each other and perhaps create a play group for our children.
what i have found instead is that most people--teachers included--are not accepting of my birth choices, and in particular when i'm "outed" as having an unmedicalized, unassisted pregnancy and childbirth, and that instead i have wasted my time and money being given a class that is not functional for supporting the body during it's pregnancy adaptations or preparing the body for birth nor is it functional for supporting any emotional or social needs that i may have.
i would prefer to go to my friend--the woman i mentioned above--but her class is offered when i am already teaching. instead, she is supportive via email, etc, and she has offered great insight into all of my practices when i do have questions, as well as support for my choice to birth without hinderences. | |
| | |
| Wow Zoe, I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience in your prenatal class.
One message hammered home in the prenatal teacher training I took was to offer support, not judgment, and that every woman has a right to experience birth in her own way and to not criticize a woman for either birthing at home or having a planned C-section, despite your own feelings on the subject.
Heck, I think the only opinions I've offered is on how wonderful Gatorade was for me in the first trimester and how much swimming has helped my pregnancy.
I do a check-in at the start of each class to see if there are any new developments people want to share, in part to allow women to share good news and in part to learn of any new developments that require modifications. But my goodness, I would never tell a woman she was in "denial", especially since I'm not a trained psychotherapist.
Maybe there's another teacher in your area who offers a more non-judgmental approach? | |
| | |
| Zoe: but, i do have to ask--can you give an example of a yoga posture or practice that would harm a developing fetus and explain how that posture or practice would cause harm and what kind(s) of harm those practices would cause a fetus?
I suppose I could do so Zoe but I think the topic is too charged and I don't see a productive direction based on that energy. So I'll politely decline on the issue of deleterious postures for pregnancy - for now.
Relative to pregnant students in class, be they Zoe or others, their life choices are just fine with me. I consider my separation between myself and my students, my life and the lives of my students, my yoga and the yoga of my students, to be healthy separation. It is neither attachment or detachment.
I offer what I know to those who come to learn. What they do from there is absolutely perfectly fine with me. Whether I consider pregnancy "medical" and they do or do not simply never crosses my mind. I don't care one iota if a student chooses a midwife or not. I don't care if they birth in the pool at the Y or the tub at home, or the emergency room at County General. It's simply not my business as it is not my life.
I do however care about the health and well being of my students. But that merely directs my teaching and approach. It is not a method for control. In that light I offer direction and it may be accepted in whole or in part (or not at all). | |
| | |
| i don't really think of this topic as particularly "highly charged" and that the purpose of learning is to discuss those things that even may be difficult.
one of the reasons to discuss or give a single example of a posture and how it may harm and why is to discuss what the real issue is in regards to that posture, and the developing pregnant body and the developing fetal body.
----
it should be noted that there are dozens of prenatal yoga classes in my area (afterall, within 45 mintues of my home, there are over 200 yoga facilities or yoga-combo facilities, or yoga offered as wellness or gym services at some place or another). i know many of the teachers, and while all very nice people, i have had no real positive support for my birth plans.
personally, i am accepting of anyone's birth choices. my students have chosen everything from midwife-assisted homebirths to elective, scheduled c-sections. i teach these students as they present what they need, and support all of their choices and options. that's my path--with pregnant people or otherwise.
i have attended numerous classes with various teachers in the area. one teacher does do a lot to prepare for birth and such, and she's a great gal, but she is "adamantly against" me speaking about my birth/pregnancy process even philosophically, and feels that even my presence is "dangerous to the health and wellbeing" of the other students, because i dare to suggest that, IMO and for me, pregnancy is not a medical event. she does support midwife-assisted homebirth entirely.
so, even when the yoga aspect is good, the social aspect generally isn't--from top down. beyond teachers, the other students can be incredibly catty about the whole thing, and i had one class's teacher call me and say that the students had decided that i was "too judgemental" and therefore not welcome in class.
this was based on the after-class conversation where one woman asked me where i was giving birth, and when i asserted i was homebirthing, she shut down and said "oh, well, not all of us are so lucky!" in a nasty tone. I didn't judge her--i had no clue of her plans at all. i was just answering the question.
so, in some cases, i'm simply "not welcome" and in other cases, i simply do not want to go through the continued questioning of my motives and morality. in the last class i took, the teacher pushed until i finally asserted i was going unassisted, to which she said "it is highly immoral, IMO, to value the birth itself over the health and wellbeing of your baby." and i said "i agree, but i am not doing that. i feel that this method of birth is the safest and healthiest for my baby, and if i felt otherwise, i would choose otherwise."
she was not happy and said that i didn't have a very "yogic" attitude.
so, no point in paying for grief.
Edited by zoebird 2008-03-02 4:47 PM
| |
| | |
| purnayoga had some really good things to say. The one thing that I would add is that I ask that prenatal students are being honest with their bodies, their instructors and their caregivers.
There's such a pressure for pregnant women to be "superwomen" in the workplace and pretend like nothing has changed that this pressure can carry over into yoga classes.
In terms of specific for contraindications, here's what I have learned in my prenatal teacher training, my own experience, and from what I have read in the various pregnancy books.
Full inversions: risk of placental abruption in that the placenta can pull away from the uterus
Lying on your back: At six months (sometimes earlier) the baby can put pressure on the vena cava and inhibit blood flow back to the heart. This has been studied with fetal heart rate monitors and momma in a full supine position.
Lying on your belly: obvious pressure, discomfort, risk of compressing the umbilical cord and putting pressure on the placenta
Deep twists (beyond a 45 degree angle): risk of compressing the umbilical cord and restricting blood supply to the baby
Deep back bends: risk of tearing the rectus abdominus which is already super stretched out
Double leg lifts, as in boat: pressure on the uterus and too much pressure on the round ligaments which hold up the uterus (I've experienced this personally)
Unsupported squats after 36 weeks: the pelvic floor might not be strong enough to sustain this position and could risk preterm labor, which is why deep squats without support are contraindicated after 36 weeks, or if there is already some weakness in the pelvic floor
Deep lunges without support of a knee on the floor: too much pressure on the pelvic floor, may induce a strain
Unsupported forward folds: risk of falling (using a chair to come in and out of standing forward folds is best)
Going in and out of forward folds too quickly (as in a regular vinyasa class): Risk of dizziness and nausea
One of the best bits of advice came from one of my pregnant student's moms. I was showing her full camel as an example of a pose to be modified or avoided in pregnancy and her mom (who practiced yoga regularly) said the best thing, "Well I don't know how you could get out of that easily when you're eight month pregnant." That's been one of my guiding principles as well. | |
| | |
| i agree that the bottom line should be about caring about the health and wellbeing of the client, but i question whether our own cultural fears and perspectives about pregnancy can inhibit our ability to truly live up to this core value.
in a class that i took, the teacher kept avoiding certain things that could have helped a particular client--things that are contraindicated according to the general list (thanks for providing diy)--but the teacher kept avoiding it both because it was contraindicated and she felt that the student might increase the harm.
and yet, in seeking to avoid harming, she instead allowed the student to perpetuate in harm, when the student was actively seeking a method of overcoming the situation. basically, by treating the client out of fear (and thus avoiding what would help), the teacher was allowing the student's suffering to continue, needlessly, and therefore was not working toward the health and wellbeing of the student.
now, whether the student wants, takes, utilizes the information or what have you *is* up to the student. but what is offered is up to the teacher.
and if the teacher truly wants to serve to the client's health and wellbeing, then the teacher must be willing to offer what can help--even if it's contraindicated in a book, or what have you.
a lot of the contraindications are important, but they're really only very small risk factors. the issue of placental tearing/etc from inversion, for example, seems to be a very small risk considering the gravitational situation of most placentas (being high in the uterus and having gravity pulling down when the person is standing up), but could be a risk for women who have certain pre-existing conditions or certain diagnosis that would indicate that this could be a risk.
it's definitely worth knowing, but it's also worth asking--is this a common case or a special case? is this a big risk to most women or a small risk to most women or a big risk to some wmoen and which women?
and if someone says "better safe than sorry" are they not thinking about their own fears before client health/wellbeing?
and isn't that going against the very notion of what this is for? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| It seems to me that a lot of the contraindications for a lot of things in pregnancy are statistically ridiculously small and our current attitudes of zero% risk creates fear and misunderstanding. Under the correct circumstances, full inversions are absolutely indicated and desirable for certain mothers. MOST mothers, even those who are long term practitioners at what we will call for the moment an "advanced" level, will opt out of full inversions at some point if they are knowledgeable and honest with themselves. As with anyone, the "danger" points tend to be going in and out of the pose, not performing the pose itself. Good lord - I cannot begin to imagine getting into headstand with either of my pregnancies after about 5 months. I was seriously huge....  
| |
| | |
| i wouldn't necessarily say so.
i mean, most of my students are well aware that asana is only 1/8 of yoga, and they're quite adept at choosing their own process (because, afterall, for many of them there are times when not pregnant and nothing "unusual" is going on that they opt out of inversions--myself included, btw), and they may still choose to utilize an inversion, or a forward bend or whatever.
i think that the question still stands though--are the risks real, for whom are they real, when, and when are we letting our fear override our interest in helping increase the health and wellbeing of the client?
it might be noted that during the first trimester, i was very tired. it was really they only symptom of pregnancy that i had--it was as if someone was drugging me throughout the day. LOL! so, i didn't do nearly the activity that i was used to doing. i would get up, teach, go home and rest, then teach, and then go home and sleep. of course, i would eat in there too.
part of my rest was 30 mintues of very gentle, fully supported asana practice (that is, with props, all on the floor, etc) followed by 30-45 minutes of meditation, then contemplation/visualization.
now that my energy is back, i'm slowly adding back in my long walks (right now, i do about 2 miles instead of my pre-pregnancy 7, but i'm getting back up there. it's also really cold outside. LOL!), and i'm gently moving back into a more vigorous practice. i'm still not doing sun salutations, etc, but i have added in standing postures, as well as more challenging floor work, and more vigorous pranayama, and so on.
i do also practice inversions--including headstand and various arm balances--and it really feels good on my belly/back in particular.
of course, i'm only 14 weeks and 4 days, and i'm not really showing yet. most people who are abotu the same as me, as far as how far along, look much bigger than i do. i look like them at about 6-8 weeks (depending upon the person). so, i'm not very large.
i feel strong and healthy, like everything is normal, and it feels good.
| |
| | |
| This is similar to the big debate of pregnancy and scuba diving and the truth is we have no scientific research on safety limits because to test on real pregnant women would be unethical.
A teacher has to teach what they feel confident in teaching given their knowledge as well. Yes, it's true teachers in a lawsuit have the threat of litigation hanging over us, but I think most teachers are more concerned about hurting the student. Since I'm not a trained midwife or obgyn, it's impossible for me to know who would be at risk for placental abruption or a knot in the umbilical cord. For me I take the attitude of helping as much as I can without knowingly causing any harm.
I personally can't see full inversions helping back pain or turning a breech baby much more than a partial inversion like Down Dog, but that's been my experience. To take pressure off the back and belly recommend my students getting into the water, either swimming or just splashing around because that's been a godsend for me.
Yes, it's true there are things that are only a concern in later trimesters, such as lying on your back, but I like to start developing the habits in the earlier months so they become easy habits later on. I also deviate from some conventions in that I accept women in my first trimester - some teachers won't because the risk of miscarriage is greatest in the first trimester. But that again is a comfort issue teachers have to draw for themselves. I also incorporate some gentle belly dance movement into my class, but that's something I feel very comfortable in doing after researching heavily and working with my own dance practice. Other prenatal teachers might think that's dangerous, but again a teacher has to draw on their own research and personal and professional experience.
I also try to tell my students why we are modifying certain things, along with the benefits of each pose and where I've received that information so that they can make informed decisions for their home practice. I tell them that what they do at home is completely their business, but in class we take the more conservative route because everyone is different and at different stages. That's not to say we don't do work, such as doing standing poses and modified chatturanga, it's just that we modify using props, body positioning, etc. to make it as safe as possible.
Funny story: I was at a big doctor's complex dropping off my prenatal yoga brochures and on the way in I saw a pregnant woman and her husband walking out of the office after just seeing the doctor. These were her words, "I might do that thing on all fours but there's no way I'm doing that dog thing and putting my butt up in the air. I don't give a **** if it's breech and they have to cut me open there's no way my butt's going in the air." I was tempted to hand her a yoga brochure but felt it would be a waste of paper. | |
| | |
| i do understand taking the conservative approach because of the vast differences between individuals in a given classroom. Generalities do make sense, and particularly when you're talking about groups of people wherein each person has different requirements and needs.
in group settings, i take that class to that "common denominator" that they all share, which may mean cutting out any number of postures that might be individually beneficial for this or that student, but is not functional for the group as a whole, to reach the general needs of everyone in that setting.
this is part of the unique variation of a group setting for teaching as opposed to the one-on-one situation. in truth, everyone gets some need met, but no one gets all of their needs met.
beyond this, there is still a philosophical/perspective difference at play. When seeking out scientific research or when relying on the opinions and ideas of the midwife/doctor as the resource for discerning what is appropriate for a client, i feel that one is disempowering themselves and the client.
it asserts that instead of the individual having the experience and being able to express that experience, the only way the experience has any value, or may be made safe or appropriate, is if that has some external stamp of approval--the scientific study or the doctor/midwife.
this is not to say that scientific studies and doctors/midwives are not useful resources for helping us to understand the situation that the individual is experiencing in a fuller manner, but simply that it isn't the only manner in which an individual can fully experience their process, and that it may not be necessary to rely on these for some form of approval.
instead, i fully believe that the person who understands what is going on the best is the person who is experiencing it--even if she can't describe it in western, scientific, diagnostic terms but rather uses terms of feeling and sensing. and while that person may seek out diagnostic terms (the aid of a doctor/midwife/scientific study), this isn't always necessary, and to assert that it should be or must be, disempowers the individual's experience, stating that it's only valid if an outsider says it's valid.
with this, i take yoga at it's word that it's a healing discipline, with a long-standing tradition of what is safe and not safe, why and when (because, largely, contraindications are specific not generalizations), and i trust in my teachers, my education, my experience, my study, my intuition, and most importantly, in the information given to me by the student, in the student's own words and experiences (which may include medical diagnosis).
and from there, i offer options to that student and the student decides what works, what is effective and what is supportive to their health and wellbeing.
and of course, this refers to anything--not just pregnancy but all aspects of life and yoga. most of my students are "generally healthy people" and yet i know that yoga is still functioning in their lives as a healing discipline. what they share with me changes me teaching to adapt to their specific needs, as they describe their experience.
in the general classes, i cannot meet all of the needs all of the time, but i can meet a lot of the common needs a lot of the time, and that's helpful.
but i do encourage specialized classes too--workshops, private lessons, etc. | |
| | |
| During my second pregnancy 5 years ago , I practiced a gentle style of Hatha yoga with very few modifications offered to me. I now have Diastisis Recti. I did not know what this was until I was in yoga teacher training. You could stick your entire fist into my abdomen. My teacher is creator of Mamaste Yoga, she discovered the split. I was able to get it back to about an inch apart, but still I have difficulty with inversions and even Navasana is difficult for me. I personally believe this was caused by extreem twisting and forward bends. I must also mention that a woman in the same class ended up on bed rest with Placental Abruption. She almost lost her baby.
I am probably more extreem in my "safety" concerns due to this situation and in fact do request my students be past their 1st trimester. I am not comfortable teaching a Vinyasa style class to a pregnant woman and have upset a few people because of my philosophy. Teachers also need to realize that the hormone relaxin allows mothers to go deeper into asana than they should, potentially causing harm.
Today I see pregnant women practicing Power Yoga and HEATED at that and I actually get very upset by this, however, I know this is their path, not mine.
As for prenatal yoga classes. I feel these classes should be supportive, so it concerns me to know there are classes that do not promote a welcoming environment for new mothers. The style I teach prepares mothers for a natural birth, but honors and respects those who choose alternative methods.
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I think it is fair to say that mothers can have either of those conditions without ever being in a yoga class or in fact, ever doing something "wrong." Nevertheless, in our blame oriented society, people will always suspect the "newer" or different activity for causing the problem. I am not advocating for vigorous practice during pregnancy, Iyengar yoga takes a rather conservative approach as well and I am happy to follow the guidelines I have been given. | |
| | |
| tourist - 2008-03-06 5:40 PM
I think it is fair to say that mothers can have either of those conditions without ever being in a yoga class or in fact, ever doing something "wrong." Nevertheless, in our blame oriented society, people will always suspect the "newer" or different activity for causing the problem. I am not advocating for vigorous practice during pregnancy, Iyengar yoga takes a rather conservative approach as well and I am happy to follow the guidelines I have been given.
I agree completely, however, I was split from sternum to pubis (fist width). It was pretty severe. This experience simply led me to practice much more caution with my students. Better safe than sorry. | |
| | |
| but again, "better safe than sorry" is a mentality of fear, not a mentality of teaching from a place of honesty, which is something that i call into question at it's very basis.
i have no problem if a person feels that a pregnant woman shouldn't practice certain things, and as a teacher, they do not offer these things to their students for a variety of reasons. but when that reason is fear, then i question the validity of the reason--simply because i don't believe in acting from a place of fear.
i wouldn't necessarily say that your hatha yoga class caused the two conditions that you experienced (yours and another's), but that it could have been a factor or not. it really depends upon the situation.
i know many women who have DR, most of whom have never done yoga or have another form of fitness regime or no fitness regime. the cause of DR is not yoga, or deep backbends, but rather a lack of using the pelvic floor and transverse abdominal muscles during the pregnancy development. this can be for any number of reasons, but having weak muscles there, plus the addition of relaxin, is the common cause of DR.
therefore, the common "treatment" of DR is to teach a woman to utilize these muscles properly during pregnancy. if she is utilizing these muslces, then she can do deep back bends or even boat pose and what not--safely--if she wishes to utilize these postures.
Also, there's an article on my website about dealing with DR via yoga, as well as preventing it, written by a friend of mine who teaches prenatal yoga. It's worth a read, if you want to check it out. | |
| | |
| Hmmm...I have never thought about "better safe than sorry" coming from a place of fear. I can see how that could be seen as such and will most likely come back to this point in other areas of my teaching for sure. I feel differently about prenatal yoga though and I do not think I have been clear about my reasoning or given enough background, as I really did not expect to be responded to. This just happens to be a topic I am passionate about since my yoga practice has been altered due to DR.
I did not realize this at the time, but the teacher I was taking from did not have training in prenatal, nor did she have a personal practice or take continuing education. I trusted her to give me the proper modifications, which were along the lines of "open your legs wide in forward bends" and "off the back after 5-6 months", that's about it.
I had been practicing yoga about 8 years at the time and felt confident my body was strong and knew when to back off. I had practiced prenatal yoga during my first pregnancy and all went well, no problems. I felt confident walking into a Hatha class for my second pregnancy since there were no options close to me for prenatal yoga. I entered a teacher training program 4 months after my daughter was born and at 7 months post-partum my teacher found the DR. She specifically asked if I had been offered modifications during my practice during the pregnancy. She said this was the worst case she had ever seen and that the backbends, twisting, & deep forward bends were probably the cause. She showed me how to bring it back together the best I could and now it is much better, but I still need to use a bind when inverting.
My teacher is Karen Prior of Mamaste' Yoga and one of the leading experts in the field of Prenatal Yoga. She developed this system with an OBGYN and has worked closely with mid-wives. She does believe in a more conservative approach, preparing a woman's body for the marathon of birth and bonding with her baby, so naturally my teaching follows her philosophy. This method teaches coming from love and support, not fear.
I don't look at this as coming from fear, rather coming from the place of my training and my personal experience. While it is true both conditions I mentioned earlier could happen to anyone, I strongly believe this happened in this particular yoga class. I am drawing this conclusion from my training and personal experience.
I do not blame this teacher, as she did not know better. I have no room in my heart for blame. I just take what I know and apply it and try my best to be non-judgmental when I see other teachers take less care, since it is simply a question of philosophy/training. It is hard for me though, since I will be living with this the rest of my life and would not want this to happen to anyone else. I am sure this is magnified for me though since it is my career.
So, no blame, no fear, I just prefer to follow contraindications I have been given, especially since this is a personal experience for me.
I will check out your website though and will consider the different between coming from fear and being cautious. I think I have learned something in that regard and will apply it to other areas.
Also, I am thankful for this forum and have read silently for a long while.
Namaste' | |
| | |
| i think that a big problem that we have in the yoga industry in general is untrained, unprepared teachers.
in regards to teaching, aside from blatantly problematic teaching forms or alignment problems or dangerous behaviors, it might also be noted that just because you see something as dangerous or problematic based on your training doesn't mean that the teacher-in-question is "taking less care."
in fact, i take great care towards all of my students, and i rely on my training and my process of study as well as my relationship with that student to create the sort of practice that *that* student needs.
it is, simply, that my training and perspective is different when it comes to any special-case student.
because our culture is western and western medicine/science/thought is prized, we tend to look there first for answers and cautions.
but, i do not take this perspective. i believe that yoga is more comprehensive, more deeply aware of, and more integrated understanding of the human being, at every level of being. i do utilize medical information to gain a broader understanding (beyond what my yoga understanding may be, or to understand specifically what things should be considered and how/why), but my first process is to think about the problem from a yoga asana perspective, rather than a western-medical perspective.
the practice of yoga asana is the process of creating and building dynamic health and wellbeing (in addition to it's many other spiritual benefits). the practice of medicine in the west--particularly in regards to pregnancy--is looking for problems early in pregnancy, and once the child is viable, seeking for way to avoid problems. it takes the perspective that pregnancy is a situation of problems, that we need to be cautious and careful, that we need to worry and we need to be "better safe than sorry." to me, all of this is a position of fear and the desire to control.
yoga, on the other hand, is really a process of observing, learning, and practicing with openness and diligence. this doesn't mean that there isn't care and caution in the action of the practice, but that there aren't firm/fixed rules for any given thing because each person is different, and each need is different, and each process is going to be different.
thus, the problem i have with much of prenatal training is 1. it's reliance on a fear-based medical model rather than the knowledge-based yoga model, and 2. that if there is a slight risk of X, then it's contraindicated for everyone, regardless of circumstance due to the fear of slight risk of X.
a yoga perspective, imo, relies on deep knowledge of the postures, the body (and energy body), and how the body is affected by postures, and in the case of prenatal yoga, how the body and energy body are positively and negatively affected by postures depending upon the individual circumstances of that mother and child. therefore, if the mother truly is at risk for X, then the teacher would avoid things that would cause that, whereas if the mother is truly not at risk for X, and the posture could be helpful to her in another way, the teacher offers the student that posture and they explore it together with care.
so, you might look at my student, due in april, who has been practicing a vigorous form of vinyasa yoga since after her first trimester (she had a lot of exhaustion in first tri--as i did--and so we practiced more gentle forms of yoga), and say that her teacher is not taking care, or that she is not taking care.
but the truth is, i have told her about the primary contraindications of every pose that we commonly do, what it's affect may be on the body, how to modify each posture in a variety of ways, and i watch her to make sure that she is properly aligned in those postures to maintain integrity and safety.
now, she also practiced yoga with me, in this style, for over a year before becoming pregnant, we utilized yoga to help increase her fertility, and i feel confident in both my education/training, her experience, and our relationship.
when i have a new student in class who is pregnant, the class changes a great deal--we take out vinyasa, we take out deep back bends, we take out spinal twists and so on. i see what she can do, how aware she is, and we start a relationship about what she wants out of yoga in regards to her pregnancy and how to achieve that.
so, it's always great care, even if you or mamaste training or whatever would disagree with what i'm doing. | |
| | |
| I don't see that mentality coming from fear either, and I don't see anything dishonest about it.
Deep backbends, from everything I've read and what I've experienced myself physically are not the most therapeutic poses to be doing while pregnant. If you watch the way a pregnant woman's posture changes during pregnancy she often develops lordosis or sway back, which deep backbends can exaggerate. Instead of continuing to arch the lower back a pregnant woman needs to lengthen her lower back and even round it in poses like Cat. She does, however, need to work on arching in the upper back through chest openers to help negate the kyphosis or upper back rounding which often accompanies the lordosis.
So no, I don't not teach deep backbends in my class just because I'm afraid I'll hurt someone, I don't teach them because I see them aggravating rather than soothing a spinal imbalance that occurs during pregnancy.
Now, I'm not passing judgment on people's personal practice. Many would question my decision to take up cross country skiing while pregnant. We all have to make our own choices.
However, Every teacher has to teach from a place of honesty and if a prenatal teacher honestly believes that inversions, deep twists or deep backbends are not the best pose for prenatal women, based on her training and her self-study, then how is that being fearful. Wouldn't it be more dishonest to teach poses that your training, your own personal physical experience, and your gut instinct tells you are not the best ideas?
There are plenty of things teachers don't teach. I don't teach Kundalini or Bikram because when I'm honest with myself I don't find them the best path for me to teach. It's not because I'm fearful of them, they're just not the practices I truly believe in for myself as a teacher. | |
| | |
| However, Every teacher has to teach from a place of honesty and if a prenatal teacher honestly believes that inversions, deep twists or deep backbends are not the best pose for prenatal women, based on her training and her self-study, then how is that being fearful. Wouldn't it be more dishonest to teach poses that your training, your own personal physical experience, and your gut instinct tells you are not the best ideas?
i absolutely agree with you here. that is why i said, from the onset and in response to the OP, that if you feel that it is wrong for pregnant women to be in your class, then you inform them of this and perhaps provide them with alternatives.
i think it is perfectly ok to say "this is why i don't teach this posture" and in particular if it comes from training, experience, and the process that you see with your students. it is an honest, reliable approach.
but, what i am taking issue with is certain perspectives--such as across the board contraindications such that all teachers must fall in line with this mode of thinking about pregnancy rather than the teacher-student relationship and the individual's knowledge of yoga, the body, and that student's need being the underlying practice.
and, i take issue, in general, with how our culture views pregnancy as a medical condition, or as a delicate/difficult condition, rather than a position of strength and growth, and something compltely normal and healthy that a woman and baby go through, while simultaneously recognizing that for 3-5% of the population, the venture may be very risky for very specific reasons, and when a person is at risk, then the yoga practiced (or whatever practiced) is adapted to meet that risk.
being a pregnant woman currently, i'm frustrated that i'm treated like an invalid, or that another yoga teacher (prenatal, teaches with me) goes apoplectic when i demonstrate crow pose or sun salutations for my students, even though i know full well what is good for my body right now and what isn't, and i have for a very, very long time. . .and she's going on what her book/training taught her, rather than on whatever our relationship is or may be (we don't have much of one, and i'm more experienced than her in yoga and in teaching so she's really one of my students), and so she's reacting in fear when she sees me do these things, rather than being open to why i may be an exception to that contraindication, etc.
this isn't to say that i'm dictating to her that she must teach what i am doing--because i do think that would be dangerous and dishonest largely because it is beyond her scope--but rather that we must have the openness to recognize that not everyone is the same, and therefore the needs themselves are not the same.
again, i agree that deep back bends can have that issue with lordosis, DR, and a variety of other issues--and they should be utilized only by those who need/require them. afterall, you don't need stitches when you scrape your knee, right?
same with postures. sometimes a basic one will do exactly what it needs to, but other times, that posture is not what is required by that student, and something more challenging or commonly contraindicated is.
and when that's the case, we shouldn't be afraid to use it, just because we commonly wouldn't. | |
| | |
| just to give another example, that has nothing to do with prenatal yoga but illustrates the concern that i have regarding yoga teaching, i'll talk about a teacher around here.
he's a good teacher. sivananda yoga tradition, focuses predominently on philosophy and meditation in his teaching. he sees asana as just something to do to prep for meditation. no alignment focus at all, just very gentle stretching (reach over head, fold forward, a bunch of seated postures, cat/cow, etc) for about 30 mintes and then you listen to a 30 minute philosophy lecture and then do a 15 mintue meditation. he has a PhD in divinity and studied yoga in india.
now, he once came to one of my classes and after class felt he needed to give me some "constructive criticism" which then became a diatribe about why i should never, ever teach head stand and should always be very, very careful with shoulderstand because of compression of the neck.
now, it is true that shoulderstand and headstand can be risky and that students can compress their necks. but this doesn't mean that shoulderstand and headstand should per se be abandoned.
what is means is that students need to be taught how to do these postures properly, which includes doing postures that will help "build up" their ability to do these postures properly in addition to teachign modifications to these postures that can help them learn how to do them properly, and then, when they do the postures, they do it without neck compression.
i am very cautious about this with my students and always have been, neck injuries are a mess, and i know that i don't want my students to have to deal with that at all.
but, does that mean that avoiding teaching that posture--ever--is the real answer?
for this other teacher--again a good teacher and great guy--that is the answer. he just feels it's too risky, that it's too difficult to teach, and that people might injure themselves so you might as well avoid it.
and i can say, go ahead and do that, Bob, because that's you're deal.
but where i come into a problem is Bob telling me what i should do, when i believe that there are very special benefits to those postures--which of course, the tradition teaches as well--and i know that i can teach my students the postures in a systematic and safe way.
so i think that when it comes to the prenatal stuff, what a lot of you wouldn't do with yoru students--because of the training or experience or what have you--i would do simply because i know my students, my teaching, my training, my process. i know what we do, and i know that i can lead a student safely through a posture that another teacher may find "way too risky."
i'm fine with that teacher saying "my experience tells me that this posture is too risky, therefore i won't teach it." but i'm not fine with a teacher saying "my experience is universal; everyone should teach as i do."
and i beg the question of how we are teaching, when we are saying "i wouldn't do that."
my clients with back pain, i teach some postures--in a safe and systematic way--that other back-specialist teachers with all of the doctor-approved training credentials wouldn't go near. they tell me i'm risky, i'm dangerous, i'm not taking care.
and yet my students heal and feel great and get better--often more quickly than theirs--because i took the approach that was right for that student, as i knew and understood it based on my experience and training and the relationship with that student. . .
so, it hink that'smore to what i'm getting at. . . | |
| | |
| zoebird-"i'm fine with that teacher saying "my experience tells me that this posture is too risky, therefore i won't teach it." but i'm not fine with a teacher saying "my experience is universal; everyone should teach as i do."
jimg-I totally agree with this. We all need to decide what we feel comfortable with, make an educated risk/reward assessment, and then teach from there. I don't agree with many things that other people do, so I don't do them. I don't want other people telling me what I can or cannot do, so I can't go around telling others what they should or should not do.
That being said, I think that it is extremely important that these decisions be made after evaluating the evidence and making a call that you can support, rather than making these kind of decisions out of ignorance or lack of due diligence.
| |
| | |
| I think that it is extremely important that these decisions be made after evaluating the evidence and making a call that you can support, rather than making these kind of decisions out of ignorance or lack of due diligence.
i completely agree with this.
part of the struggle that i have with many of the prenatal teachers that are here is that they are not diligent in their studies.
my process with any student--pregnant or otherwise--is to listen deeply to their descriptions of what they are feeling in their bodies. i then go home and look at my anatomy charts and i contemplate deeply what is going on with my student. if they have a medical diagnosis, then i look that up, as well as whatever treatment they are going through. and i add this to my contemplation of what might work for this student.
once i feel that i have a solid understanding of the student's situation, i begin to research the various yoga postures that we do and how they may be helpful or harmful to the given student--and i focus on how the alignment will affect the student energetically and physically. i then study posture that would work toward that specific area for that student, taking into consideration what i know of the student's level of ability and so on.
from there, i then take the student through the normal routine that we do, asking the student to carefully observe certain alignment techniques, and i observe them deeply to make sure that they are in the proper alignment. after class, we discuss the need and how the yoga class affected it, or if they felt it or what have you. then, if i feel that it would be beneficial to add or take away postures from the sequence for them, i do--and i instruct them on the specialized postures just for them, including modifications.
this process is one that requires a lot of effort on my part, and a lot of my online time during the day is spent researching and contemplating the different situations that my students bring to me--physical, emotional, or spiritual. i spend a lot of time looking into these questions for them, and i strive to provide both work that we can do and resources outside of this that they can consider on their own.
and always, it's balanced with what they are experiencing and feeling.
i notice that many of my fellow teachers are not this diligent. they are great people, and they love the work that they do. but they do not deal well with injuries or special cases or unique needs. they teach general classes for generally healthy people. they think about yoga when they do their own practice, when they're reading an interesting book on a given yoga topic, and when they are leading/teaching their classes. they do get continuing education--and typically they follow that to the letter, which decreases ignorance and gives them a great starting point, but i think that if it's the basis of all of the work--rather than this more contemplative and experimental aspect--then perhaps i'm wondering if they are practicing "due diligence."
perhaps i am asking too much from fellow teachers, though admittedly i would prefer to go to a teacher who takes the perspective that i do about this work.
and this is why, in part, i do not want to go to the prenatal class that i mentioned above. this is a teacher who has recently completed a 200 hr training, who has taken a specialized training in teaching children (a training that i find patronizing to children, having watched the classes), and who teaches prenatal because she "did yoga throughout her pregnancy."
i would feel much safer working with one of the two teachers who have posted here--due to their training and obvious diligence in their studies--than the teacher who wants me to take her class.
and this is common in my area. many of the prenatal teachers are not trained in prenatal, they simply practiced while pregnant, they have a book or a video, and they follow that.
this is not diligence.
and then beyond this, they harass and fear-monger me about how i teach my students as well as how i practice myself as a pregnant woman.
it's really very strange. | |
| | |
| zoebird - 2008-03-07 7:01 AM
but again, "better safe than sorry" is a mentality of fear, not a mentality of teaching from a place of honesty, which is something that i call into question at it's very basis.
.
Do you stop at red lights? | |
| | |
| Zoe,
I get the sense that I have offended somehow. I never meant to do so. It seems I have also come across as bashing others for not doing as I do. This was not my intention. I do not think my way of teaching is Universal and when I spoke of teachers taking "less care", I am speaking of teachers who not only do not offer modifications for pregnancy, but also have a lack of concern for alignment principals that everyone needs. Seriously, I could take you to a few places around here and you would get what I am driving at completely. I understand that just because this happened to me, does not mean it will be true for others. Again, please take into consideration that I am speaking from a place where I have felt violated. I simply wish teachers who do not know would say,"I am not sure how to help you, let me go find out."
Also, I do not come from yoga as a medical model or that everyone is one and the same. I look at the individual student as you do. I used to be a special ed. teacher so I am aware of individual needs and offer my students what they need accordingly. I am also a fan of Ayruveda, so again, individual needs are taken into account.
This was my very first response to a post and I am thinking it did not go over so well. I was simply trying to offer my experience.
| |
| | |
| It went over just fine.
I did not perceive your post(s) as out of bounds, bashing, offensive, or inappropriate in nature or intent.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-03-07 6:29 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| DeAnna - no, your post went over fine. You are, as you say, responding to something from a place where you have felt violated, and ZB is responding from the place of being a little p*ssed about being told what to do all the time. She didn't like it much before she was pregnant and isn't taking it much better now. We missed those encyclopedic posts during the first trimester, zoebird! I think it has been a healthy discussion all around. | |
| | |
| no, i agree with the others that it went over completely fine. 
i think that, for me, i really love good dialogue, and that in person, we have way more cues about meaning (body language, tone of voice, etc), and i strive really hard to keep my written tone level and even, and also that i try to read people with the mind that they are presenting, not attacking or whatever.
and, i think that language itself is very interesting, so i like to explore that in myself and at a cultural level--so it's not 'personal' thing at all, though that doesn't often come across. example, i'm exploring how "better safe than sorry" may be an expression of fear/worry rather than a true act of reasoned caution.
and, i do know what you mean about teachers/people who are are not careful and will not admit their limits. it is a HUGE problem, and particularly when we're dealing with yoga (i think, but that could be just because i'm passionate about yoga). And, it IS violating to students! it IS harmful to them! and it's sad, because somehow people tend to think of this behavior as "OK" and they just go with it. I could show you MANY teachers around here like this--so i know EXACTLY what you're talking about.
beyond this, tourist is right. first, i have a serious problem with being told what to do by others. my typical way of acting towards people is to tell them things to consider or go look up or experiment with, or i tell them what worked for me with no expectation that they'll be interested or try it (and in both cases, they have to ask). i have a problem with "authority" that i consider to be "false authority" or to be an individual who's perspective is fundamentally or philosophically different from me, but who still asserts some "authority" or behaves 'authoritatively" towards me because this demonstrates a lack of respect for my own agency and intellegence.
now, i'm not saying that i felt you were doing this, but i often feel the force of culture doing this. and in the yoga world, we have culture coming to bear on what we do, just like midwives do. because our culture values certain things--or percieves pregnancy in a certain way for instance--then that impacts how people think about yoga in light of that information, rather than taking that information in light of yoga. KWIM?
so, not only do i not like being told what to do in general unless i really believe that person is an authority (and i have teachers, so it's not like i'm out on a limb or anything! LOL), but if i do not believe that person is an authority, or i see their authority as only extending so far due to the differences in philosophy, then i see no reason to hold that opinion as more valid than my own experience/opinion.
and yet employers will hold with the other opinion (it's why i'm not "allowed" to teach prenatal yoga, even though i'm more highly trained and experienced than other prenatal teachers in this area), and the teacher's themselves hold with this opinion (that i shouldn't teach because i'm not "prenatal certified" by a certain group or what have you), and then beyond this, the teachers and students push their ideas about what is and isn't ok to do while pregnant onto me, even though their knowledge is highly limited in both yoga and also in what my specific experience/needs are.
so as you felt violated by someone not being clear about limits--that is, they didn't express their limits--i feel violated by someong not being clear about my limits--which is, they flood me with their fears and "information" because they're trying to be helpful and "better safe than sorry" and they're "scared for me."
but their fears are not my fears, and so i feel completely pushed. and this isn't the only area. it's not just in my yoga practice, but also in my dietary practices, and my choice of birthing at home, unassisted, and having an unassisted pregnancy (no doctors, no midwives, no tests and appointments--unless i strongly feel and think that i need one!), the fact that i haven't worn a bra in four months, the idea that i want to breast feed until natural weaning, and on and on.
i can't get away from people's advice to me about "taking care of myself" and "being good to the baby" and "don't be afraid to get the epidural!" and "you shouldn't do inversions or deep back bends!" and "you should eat more meat but don't eat raw cheese" and 'you must take prenatal vitamins" and "children belong with their peers in child care" and on and on and on.
and sometimes, it's not people saying this, but the messages in the magazine advertisements or the conversations that women hold (i recently went to a meeting of homebirthing women, and it was so medical, and i had little to say, and when i shared my process, i was then treated very coldly), or in off-handed remarks.
so what i'm doing, in this conversation and most, is trying to come to terms with feeling so isolated and pressured to "normalize."
i'm not really "p*ssed" about it, so much as i'm upset that i'm not included, that i don't get to participate as other women do, because of these pressures, and i feel very left out and sometimes quite alone. | |
| | |
| This thread brings up so many many things.
As far as power yoga during pregnancy, I think this boils down to a certain mindset. I think many pregnant women, especially those who are young and fit and who are having easy pregnancies don't want to think of themselves as weaker just because they are pregnant. So they push themselves and attempt to live their lives just as they did before. What did the feminist movement do to us women. It turned us into women who can't just take it easy. We are always trying to prove ourselves, but to whom? Is it worth it?
With regards to fitting in when we make different choices. This is always stressful and isolating, but we have to do what we think is right. It is difficult being misunderstood because you are taking a different path. I think the challenge here is to be different without the anger and frustration that others misunderstand. | |
| | |
| see, but there's an assumption again, that pregnancy is a "weaker" condition. it isn't. it's just a different condition, one of change, and that change is positive. i see it as a position of strength, personally.
and, i have no trouble taking it easy. during the first tri, i was very sleepy. i would get up late, go teach the am classes (no assisting/demos), and then go home and take a bath and a nap, then teach in the evening, and then go to bed early. my practice was 100% restorative postures on props.
now, i have more energy and i'm walking again, and i can assist/demo in class, and i'm working my way up back to doing sun salutations, though my focus is more on just doing standing, arm balance/inversions (only as desired/necessary), seated and reclining postures. that is, i've just gotten more diverse.
and all of them are for the purpose of serving the pregnancy--to help the body move with ease through the growth changes of pregnancy and to prepare for labor and birth. so, it's not as if i feel that what i'm doing has to do with not wanting to feel weaker or not being able to take a break, but the reality that i am not weaker (nor do i feel weaker) and i'm so pleased to have the energy back and the knowledge/ability to utilize yoga to prepare for birth.
and, i don't feel misunderstood, i feel like i'm missing out on what other women in our culture get and i am sad about that. they get parties, celebrations, people excited for them and extra-large "travel systems." i'm happy with my path, i'm not happy that my path is seemingly isolating.
Edited by zoebird 2008-03-10 6:31 PM
| |
| |
|
Pregnancy and Power Yoga