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| I have been keeping up my meditation practice for the last few weeks, now twice a day for 30 minutes each time. I have noticed a recurring negative pattern in my thoughts recently. I obsess over women. I think about women so much. Every time I see an attractive girl, my brain starts going in circles: "She is so beautiful. I should talk to her. What would I say? I want her to like me. What if she doesn't like me?" Then I am struck by anxiety and fear, as my brain keeps spinning, worrying about what I should do.
I have been trying a few different solutions to this problem. First, following the advice I read in Swami Sivananda's book "Thought Power", I tried to replace those negative thoughts with positive thoughts. Whenever I noticed my brain circling around an attractive female, I repeated to myself over and over again "I am awesome and confident and courageous, whether she likes me or not." However, this technique is very difficult for me. My brain often does not obey and keeps thinking about the girl. Especially as proximity increases, it becomes much more difficult. If I am sitting right next to the girl, my brain just does not stop.
I never realized that I had so little control, and it really bothers me. I wonder if I am even capable of stopping my desire for women. Am I simply supressing my desire by thinking contrary thoughts? Isn't supression a bad thing? For example, if I am starving, and I tell myself, "I am full and content and healthy just as I am," the desire for food still exists no matter what I tell myself. My body is still hungry. I am just fooling myself, pretending to be something that I am not.
I have also tried to just approach them as if I am not afraid. I smile and say "Hi. who are you?" (This is something I could never do before by the way, but recently somehow I have been able to ignore most of the fear.) But girls do not seem to like me very much. Some of them are really rude to me when I try to talk to them, which just makes me feel even worse and have more negative thoughts.
Is there any way that I can get rid of my desire for women? What can I do to stop worrying and thinkig about women so much? Should I just stay away and keep a distance? Not sit next to them or look at them?
All of these attempts at control and discipline just seem like pure supression of the desire, which does not feel good. Yet letting the desire have its way drains so much of my energy and consistently routines my mood, which also does not feel good. It seems like a lose/lose situation. Does anyone have any other ideas? | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-08-30 7:57 AM
How old are you?
I am twenty. | |
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| Sounds perfectly normal to desire girls. It's even more normal to have trouble talking to them. Finally you'll find that there are a lot of people in life that won't connect with you. Nothing to do with either one of you, just too different. Some of these people will be rude to you because of their own past experiences, which really have nothing to do with you.
As far as the desire for sex goes, I wouldn't worry about it. I read an interesting article about a western style monk. He said that the hardest thing to give up was the desire to masturbate. It took him about 7 years, he was older than you, and in a monestary! | |
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Expert Yogi
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| strazin - at 20 you are biologically absolutely supposed to be thinking about women a lot. Although it is uncomfortable for you, I would by no means consider it "negative." You have probably heard this suggestion before, but you need to find ways to meet other people (including women) in a non-threatening, friendly way and socialize more rather than less. Go to yoga class, join a bunch of bird watchers, play Scrabble, borrow a dog to walk in the dog park, volunteer at a race, Habitat for Humanity, church, etc. Have fun and meet more people  | |
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| Since SisTourist told me your age = 20, this is what I suggest.
- You need to first decide what you want to achieve in the field of sex. Total celibacy, medium, etc. etc.
- Then make a plan of action in that sense.
- If you were around 25 to 30, I would have recommended marriage. But, let us leave that for GJ.
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| "Celibacy – Although many people now translate this to mean non-attachment to sexuality or only having sex with your spouse, the word celibacy, as used by Patanjali, means no sex, period. Some Hindu texts from this period even state that any loss of semen leads to death. The idea behind celibacy is to trade present sexual pleasure for the promise of a higher pleasure later in this life or in some future life. Many faiths or sects try to control sex because it is a very strong basic human instinct. If you can control a person’s sexuality, they are much easier to control in other ways, much as a neutered dog is easier to control. Since our sexual instinct is one of our most primal, its suppression usually leads to perversion rather than some kind of holiness or enlightenment. The repression of anything is unhealthy. We need to understand and enjoy our sexuality and use it in a healthy, positive way. After all, it is the way that life is made on this planet."
"If you repress desire, it comes back in perverted forms. For example: A man (I’m using man in this example, but it could be the other way around) sets up his Yoga mat for class. He notices a very attractive woman next to him. The man can acknowledge his desire, decide that although this is a natural desire, this is not the appropriate time or place, consciously let the desire go (through non-attachment, not suppression) and move on with the Yoga class, concentrating on the exercises. -OR- He could not acknowledge or suppress his desire, pretend to be working extra hard on the poses for another reason, and injure himself through inattention to internal feedback while pushing too hard to get approval, attention, and to impress. Your desire is there whether you acknowledge it or not. This is why simply pretending not to have desire or suppressing it is counter-productive. You then stop acknowledging what doesn’t fit your self-image and it controls you unconsciously. You must develop awareness. Once you are really aware of your desires, you can understand them. Once you understand your desires, they no longer control you, you are no longer a slave to them." -excerpts from copyrited material | |
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| jimg - 2007-08-30 1:10 PM
"Celibacy – Although many people now translate this to mean non-attachment to sexuality or only having sex with your spouse, the word celibacy, as used by Patanjali, means no sex, period.
===> Hey Jimg: Where did you get this idea from? The above statement is WRONG.
Some Hindu texts from this period even state that any loss of semen leads to death.
===> That is only an expression for encouraging the Brahmacharya. There are more Hindu Texts that encourage family life, sex, proper code of sex, etc. etc. And, most of the Hindu Texts recommend Complete Celibacy only to a limited persons whereas recommending Household life for others.
The idea behind celibacy is to trade present sexual pleasure for the promise of a higher pleasure later in this life or in some future life. Many faiths or sects try to control sex because it is a very strong basic human instinct. If you can control a person’s sexuality, they are much easier to control in other ways, much as a neutered dog is easier to control. "
===> The example of neutred dog is incorrect here. There is a big difference between a neutred dog and a Yogi who is controlling passion.
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| Jim-The idea behind celibacy is to trade present sexual pleasure for the promise of a higher pleasure later in this life or in some future life. Many faiths or sects try to control sex because it is a very strong basic human instinct. If you can control a person’s sexuality, they are much easier to control in other ways, much as a neutered dog is easier to control. "
Neel-The example of neutred dog is incorrect here. There is a big difference between a neutred dog and a Yogi who is controlling passion.
Jim-In your response the Yogi is controlling passion, it is not being controlled by another. What do you mean by "controlling"? Do you mean control through awareness and the resulting understanding or do you mean suppression?
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| Neel - Hey Jimg: Where did you get this idea from? The above statement is WRONG.
Jim - To say that an idea of another person is WRONG is generally considered to be rude and combative in the English speaking world. The accepted response is something like: I disagree with your statement because of _______________. I'm sure that you did not mean to be rude, but were unaware of the implications of this usage.
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| Jimg: I accept your statement here and I shall make that change in my English writing. Thanks. Now, I shall go to your response.
jimg - 2007-08-30 2:30 PM
Neel - Hey Jimg: Where did you get this idea from? The above statement is WRONG.
Jim - To say that an idea of another person is WRONG is generally considered to be rude and combative in the English speaking world. The accepted response is something like: I disagree with your statement because of _______________. I'm sure that you did not mean to be rude, but were unaware of the implications of this usage.
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| Celibacy Part: The word celibacy used in the Patanjali is 'brahmacharya'. brahmacharya pratishthaayaam viiryalaabhaH. Brahmacharya includes - not only celibacy. It includes trying to sublimate the sexual desire, peform devotional practices, moderation in eating and increase in devotional/meditative practices, and many other activities (I am going to only mention this for now.) Now, sublimating sexual activity means: initially recognizing that sexual attraction is very strong, it can lead to removal of focus from the meditative activity (as demonstrated by the Original Post), and then understanding the role of sexual activity in the life of a human being, and then keeping the sexual activity in a controlled state in relation to its purpose in human life (of course, one purpose is procreation, and emotional satisfaction) and in line with one's spiritual activity (for example: for the one who wants to be ascetic monk, the celibacy should be close to perfect, for the other ones in prorated way, BUT FOR ALL not beyond Marital Sex! ).
In any case, when brahmacharya as defined above is practiced, viirya that is enthusiasm or energy to continue yoga practice is obtained. And, this is demonstrated by thousands of yogis.
In an average way, for a householder, having a sex with married wife and NO ONE ELSE (adultery) is the definition of celibacy.
Controlling means as follows: For a young student - focus on studies, not associate with oppostie sex, perform exercises, prayers, etc. For a married man - have sex only with own spouse, and what I wrote earlier. For an ascetic - master the passion and totally sublimate it through meditation and prayer. For a Saint - NO control is required because, the control is a practice, and a saint is beyond practice. For a saint, a man and woman appears exactly same.
jimg - 2007-08-30 1:39 PM
Jim- "Celibacy – Although many people now translate this to mean non-attachment to sexuality or only having sex with your spouse, the word celibacy, as used by Patanjali, means no sex, period.
The idea behind celibacy is to trade present sexual pleasure for the promise of a higher pleasure later in this life or in some future life. Many faiths or sects try to control sex because it is a very strong basic human instinct. If you can control a person’s sexuality, they are much easier to control in other ways, much as a neutered dog is easier to control. "
Neel-The example of neutred dog is incorrect here. There is a big difference between a neutred dog and a Yogi who is controlling passion.
Jim-In your response the Yogi is controlling passion, it is not being controlled by another. What do you mean by "controlling"? Do you mean control through awareness and the resulting understanding or do you mean suppression?
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| When we speak of "control" we typically think of 100%, locked down, no deviation control, however we can also think of control in a less absolute way. We can control a river by only allowing some of the water to flow through a dam, we can control the descent of a vehicle downhilll by using the brakes to keep us from speeding beyond our capacity or in another way, we can use acceleration to INcrease speed to a desirable level (ride too slowly on a bike and most of us fall over). Just a little thought... | |
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| That is a very interesting way of explanining it! | |
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| tourist - 2007-08-29 12:30 AM
When we speak of "control" we typically think of 100%, locked down, no deviation control, however we can also think of control in a less absolute way. We can control a river by only allowing some of the water to flow through a dam, we can control the descent of a vehicle downhilll by using the brakes to keep us from speeding beyond our capacity or in another way, we can use acceleration to INcrease speed to a desirable level (ride too slowly on a bike and most of us fall over). Just a little thought...
Tourist, I totally agree. One should find a good balance and avoid excesses in either "direction".
Additionally, (and speaking for myself), I try not to run after any desire for its own sake. Instead I ask myself where the desire comes from and whether I really desire that which seems desired. Very often, I find that I'm desiring an illusion. Once in a while the desire is genuine. Then it usually has some "deeper" motive, and I would rather call it a Passion. I don't fight those, but welcome them instead. Those have a tendency for self-regulation.
However, I doubt that any of this advice helps at age 20.
Tw
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| Oooh. You naughty. The one who tries control at 20 is a blessed one, if it comes from within such as in your statements, called 'genuine desire'. On trying the control, when one finds that path too difficult, one has to get a guidance and decide the proper path, such as marrying, social work, etc. Also, the social infrastructure does work most in this case. For example, if the same guy goes to a Yoga Class in India, he shall not face this problem with the same intensity.
tweeva - 2007-08-31 7:01 AM
However, I doubt that any of this advice helps at age 20.
Tw
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| Impulse control is an interesting mechanism. As I work with very young children (1 year olds) I can see that some of us seem to have it built-in. Some children are naturally cautious and particular about all the choices they make, even so young, and others are completely ruled by their senses. These are often "busy" kids who just run to every stimulus they see or hear and rarely stick with one toy or game. But for a male 20 year old, it is pretty much like a kid in a candy store - so many choices and they all look yummy! My advice to strazin is the same - stay in the candy store and look around a lot but don't touch anything! Eventually the over stimulation and excitement will abate and the choices will become easier  | |
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Good answer, Tourist!
Edited by jimg 2007-08-31 11:50 AM
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| Interesting. I know that Neel might not believe it, but I tend towards the cautious approach. Probably for the better, I've been burnt a couple of times, but seldom really surprised by it.
(And yes, this was even at the age of 20)
Edited by GreenJello 2007-08-31 2:29 PM
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| I shall trust in you after you get married.
GreenJello - 2007-08-31 2:29 PM
Interesting. I know that Neel might not believe it, but I tend towards the cautious approach. Probably for the better, I've been burnt a couple of times, but seldom really surprised by it.
(And yes, this was even at the age of 20) | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-08-31 3:30 PM
I shall trust in you after you get married.
 I'm working on it. Frankly, I'd rather live in a cave and eat nettles than date, but I'm working on it.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-08-31 4:24 PM
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| I would like to share with you all that today I am celebrating my 38th wedding anniversary!
Marriage is just like yoga. If you do it right, it is a wonderful thing. If you do it wrong, you might get injured. If you don't do it at all, you lose for sure. | |
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| tourist - 2007-08-30 6:30 PM
When we speak of "control" we typically think of 100%, locked down, no deviation control, however we can also think of control in a less absolute way. We can control a river by only allowing some of the water to flow through a dam, we can control the descent of a vehicle downhilll by using the brakes to keep us from speeding beyond our capacity or in another way, we can use acceleration to INcrease speed to a desirable level (ride too slowly on a bike and most of us fall over). Just a little thought...
I really like this answer. Thank you. You make a good point that you do not have to become a saint to demonstrate control. My goal has been to simply get a little bit better each day with my discipline and control -- and I have in fact been getting better. You have reminded me to find satisfaction in that.
I also like the advice to go find more non-threatening ways to socialize. Putting myself in new, uncomfortable social situations which directly confront my anxiety and desire seems like a great exercise in developing discipline.
What I will not do, however, is accept my sexual desire as a necessary side effect of my age. Many of you have said that it is natural for a young male to have strong sexual desires. I agree that this is true, but on the other hand it is also "natural" for people to be greedy, selfish, and afraid. Why should I give in to any one of these drives? I don't care if the desire is "good" or "bad". My goal is to be free of all of them.
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| strazin - 2007-08-31 6:06 PM
I don't care if the desire is "good" or "bad". My goal is to be free of all of them.
Hi strazin,
The goal to be free of desire is also a desire.
Namaste,
Jim | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | GreenJello - 2007-08-31 4:24 PM
kulkarnn - 2007-08-31 3:30 PM
I shall trust in you after you get married.
I'm working on it. Frankly, I'd rather live in a cave and eat nettles than date, but I'm working on it.
GJ, you're caving into the wrong things....you should be caving into the girl. Marriage is such a sacrifice to single life and the perfection of living alone. You're never going to find perfect, but what you do have to find is COMPROMISE. I think men have big issues with that lost art. Women really are more open to it than you think they are.
I'll never forget this one guy I dated a long time ago. He drove me nuts. Everything had to be so perfect. He even complained one time about the tube of toothpaste that I didn't straighten back out. I said forget it. Of course, now days...my toothpaste is perfectly shaped,  He just didn't give me a chance, Oh well.....just thought I'd mention that.
I am so done with desire. It's probably the most disappointing emotion for humans that I can think of. Although....hmm I kinda desire to win that big lottery tonight...it sure could make a lot of people in my life very comfortable. I'd open up the biggest yoga studio ever...it would be one of a kind, | |
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| Cyndi - 2007-08-31 7:02 PM
GJ, you're caving into the wrong things....you should be caving into the girl. Marriage is such a sacrifice to single life and the perfection of living alone. You're never going to find perfect, but what you do have to find is COMPROMISE. I think men have big issues with that lost art.
No, actually I'm not, and if you knew the whole situation, I'm sure you would agree with me. Attempting any sort of compromise is the wrong approach. You don't compromise with the tiger that wants to eat you, and I don't want to compromise with the last girl I dated. It would be a very bad thing.
So I'm struggling with the dating thing as a result, and I have in the past. One day a woman worthy of compromising for will show up, until that time I'm going to keep on keeping on.
I'll never forget this one guy I dated a long time ago. He drove me nuts. Everything had to be so perfect. He even complained one time about the tube of toothpaste that I didn't straighten back out.
Sounds pretty bad. I must admit I can be that guy from time to time. Recognizing that in me, and being will to compromise has made it harder to deal with people who really shouldn't be compromised with. | |
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| I AM PROUD OF YOU. THOUGH YOU HAVE NOT MET ME YET!
GreenJello - 2007-08-31 4:24 PM
kulkarnn - 2007-08-31 3:30 PM
I shall trust in you after you get married.
I'm working on it. Frankly, I'd rather live in a cave and eat nettles than date, but I'm working on it. | |
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| Dear Starzin:
I like your approach and goal. But, you must accept your limitations and work with that. You may reach the goal, but you must also be patient to reach there. If you find the limitations and the other goals you have such as work, income, etc. etc. are all becoming too much, you should consider one partner approach. Monisitic life is not for everyone. Anyway, that is my final input for you.
strazin - 2007-08-31 6:06 PM
What I will not do, however, is accept my sexual desire as a necessary side effect of my age. Many of you have said that it is natural for a young male to have strong sexual desires. I agree that this is true, but on the other hand it is also "natural" for people to be greedy, selfish, and afraid. Why should I give in to any one of these drives? I don't care if the desire is "good" or "bad". My goal is to be free of all of them.
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| jimg - 2007-08-31 6:12 PM
The goal to be free of desire is also a desire.
Yeah. I'm saving that one for last. | |
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| Well strazin, it is natural to have all that desire at your age, but you are absolutely right that you do not have to act upon it or let it rule your life. I was given a small box of chocolates the other day and I am looking at them right now. Part of me really wants to just eat them all right this minute, but for all those good reasons we both know, I will not do it, no matter how strongly they call my name...Did you know that dark chocolate has a louder voice than milk chocolate? Well, in my head it does, anyway  | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-08-31 9:52 PM
I AM PROUD OF YOU. THOUGH YOU HAVE NOT MET ME YET!
Thanks Neel. Let me know if you're going to be in Ohio again soon. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, this is interesting..this showed up in my mailbox this a.m. Here's a little blurp about desire and what HH Dalia Lama has to say. Very interesting.
"Attachment increases desire, without producing any satisfaction. There are two types of desire, unreasonable and reasonable. The first is an affliction founded on ignorance, but the second is not. To live, you need resources; therefore, desire for sufficient material things is appropriate. Such feelings as, "This is good; I want this. This is useful," are not afflictions. It is also desirable to achieve altruism, wisdom, and liberation. This kind of desire is suitable; indeed, all human development comes out of desire, and these aspirations do not have to be an affliction.
...when you have attachment to material things, it is best to desist from those very activities that promote more attachment. Satisfaction is helpful when it comes to material things, but not with respect to spiritual practice. Objects to which we become attached are something to be discarded, whereas spiritual progress is something to be adopted--it can be developed limitlessly, even in old age".
--from How to Expand Love by H.H. the Dalai Lama
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| strazin - 2007-08-30 12:06 AM
What I will not do, however, is accept my sexual desire as a necessary side effect of my age. Many of you have said that it is natural for a young male to have strong sexual desires. I agree that this is true, but on the other hand it is also "natural" for people to be greedy, selfish, and afraid. Why should I give in to any one of these drives? I don't care if the desire is "good" or "bad". My goal is to be free of all of them.
This surely sounds like a noble goal, but are you saying that you are trying to become free from your sexual desires by trying to suppress them? 
Maybe you experience these strong desires so that you can learn something and grow. In fact, women can teach us men quite a lot in this particular area. In your original post you mention fear. What is the real cause of this fear, in your opinion?
What is your ultimate goal?
Tw
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| tweeva - 2007-09-03 7:06 AM
This surely sounds like a noble goal, but are you saying that you are trying to become free from your sexual desires by trying to suppress them?
Maybe you experience these strong desires so that you can learn something and grow. In fact, women can teach us men quite a lot in this particular area. In your original post you mention fear. What is the real cause of this fear, in your opinion?
What is your ultimate goal?
Tw
I am not saying there is anything wrong with sex. It is my attitude towards sex which I am trying to fix. I waste too much energy and time thinking about it, when I would prefer to focus on something else -- for example, if I am in a classroom, trying to pay attention to the lecture. I also experience too many negative thoughts when females are rude to me. I feel hurt, depressed, jealous, bitter, etc. My goal is not to supress the desire, but rather to be indifferent to it. I SHOULD think: If she likes me, great. If she doesn't like me -- also great.
You are right when you say that you can learn a lot about yourself from females. I am sure you can learn something from all of your desires (including greed, anger, laziness, etc.). That is a great attitude to have. But how many people actually have sex or fulfill a desire for "educational" reasons?
This reminds me of another question which I will ask in another post. | |
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| "Thoughts of passion and lust should be conquered by an earnest practice of Brahmacharya, by intense aspiration to realise the Truth, to know God, by meditating on the great advantages of purity."
- Swami Sivananda
I am not sure what this quote means exactly. In the context of the book, Swami Sivananda is explaining how a wrong thought can be fixed by thinking of the opposite "right" thought. For example, anger can be conquered by thinking thoughts of love; Pride can be conquered by thinking of the importance of humility, etc.
But how does a desire to realize the Truth relate to passion/lust? I don't understand how these are opposites. Also, how is purity related to passion/lust. And what exactly are the advantages of purity?
Ideas? | |
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| strazin - 2007-09-02 7:52 PM
But how does a desire to realize the Truth relate to passion/lust? I don't understand how these are opposites. Also, how is purity related to passion/lust. And what exactly are the advantages of purity?
Ideas?
I can't speak in Swami Sivananda's name, but he was a very wise man indeed. I wouldn't dare to alter or interpret any of his words.
I will give you a hint to show my viewpoint, though:
What is the main driver behind our sexual desires, and what is the natural outcome? How would you name this process?
We, "people of the West" are increasingly losing respect for this most sacred of all rituals (perhaps a Kali yuga effect). Hence my comments.
Tw
Edited by tweeva 2007-09-03 4:06 PM
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Dear Starzin: This is a classical example of the fact that 'all knowledge can not always be gotten from the book'. The books are written with certain purpose in mind, with certain audience in mind, and certain background in mind. All these are NOT always spelt out. And, this is the situation with many books, including that of the great Swami Shivanandaji. Remember that these books were not written in the fashion of today's school books. But for certain audience, they immediately act or apply, and at least create passion of learning.
I was amazed (with pleasure) when I saw the American School books, as I started tutoring in Math. If I had that kind of book in India when I was a school boy, I can guarantee you that I did not need any teacher for my school course, and I would probably be a Mathematician today (I mean a Scientist!). Gee, these books are written so well, with background, objective, pictures, references, examples, etc. that I am surprised that a student comes to me for tutoring. And, when I ask they tell me they (students and teachers both) never read the book. But, they purchase it for high cost. Affluenza!
Anyway, to get back to your question, see below ===>.
strazin - 2007-09-03 1:52 PM
But how does a desire to realize the Truth relate to passion/lust?
===> To know the Truth in a ultimate way is for one 'who is ready to sacrifice everything else in the search of truth'. But, sacrifice does not mean giving up without thought. It means that giving up attachment and actually giving up the thing when necessary, not mechanically. This is an Intense Spiritual Practitioner as mentioned in my initial response. This is not one who does yoga exercise 1 to 2 hours a day, then take massage, then enjoys all other goodies, has a good job, enjoys with family, has kids, etc. But, this is the Monastic Student.
I don't understand how these are opposites. Also, how is purity related to passion/lust. And what exactly are the advantages of purity?
===> What happens is: The one who is not ready for such a path becomes frustrated and unsucessful by following the path of absolute celibacy. Not ready does not mean in the wish, but in the fact. There are many who think they are devoted students, and wish to be so. But, they actually are not.
But, for the one who is ready, the celibacy leads to 'an energy chemistry' called 'viirya' and that does definitely aid in the meditation and path of yoga, in an intense way. This is indicated by the Patanjaii Yoga Sutra ... brahmacharyapratishthaayaam virryalaabhaH... Note the word pratishthaa.. It means establishment. When one is established in the practice of celibacy (including other aspects as I mentioned in the initial post), one gets the virrya which has to be used in the meditation practice.
shraddhaa...****virrya****smrutisamaadhipradnyaapuurvak itareshaam.. Patanjali Chapter 1.
For those who are not that kind of student, celibacy means 'prayers, have only one partner, do not look at other women as your wife, and do NOT enjoy Candies'.
Peace
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| kulkarnn - 2007-09-03 5:33 PM
This is a classical example of the fact that 'all knowledge can not always be gotten from the book'.
Yes. I agree. Sometimes the truth can even slap you right across the face, and you STILL don't get it. 
kulkarnn - 2007-09-03 5:33 PM
To know the Truth in a ultimate way is for one 'who is ready to sacrifice everything else in the search of truth'.
Okay. I am sure that this is true. But this idea is not something I can fully grasp at this point. I think my original question about purity is much simpler than this.
My goal is simply to put a positive spin on my desire to overcome my lustful impulses. Swami Sivananda advises us to get rid of negative thoughts by thinking of contrary positive, inspiring thoughts. For example, if you are depressed and gloomy, he reccomends to think of cheerfulness and bliss. Tell yourself, "I am full of cheerfulness. I am full of bliss." It is a wonderfully simple solution. Difficult yes, but you do not have to be an ascetic in search of the "ultimate" truth to benefit from this simple method of positive thinking.
Let me ask my question in a different way. What kind of positive, inspiring thoughts can I think about to replace my lustful thoughts? I have tried saying, "I am full of purity!" But I don't understand what is so good and positive about purity. I feel a bit silly asking about this, since purity should obviously be positive. Perhaps you could dumb it down for me. And I also don't understand why lustful thoughts are impure. A lustful person can not be pure? I don't understand why not.
I am not necessarily trying to become an ascetic and practice complete celibacy. I am simply trying to find a way to think positive thoughts when I am overcome by negative, lustful thoughts. What can I think about? If anyone has any other ideas for positive thoughts, affirmations, images, or qualities, I would love to hear it. I could use all the help I can get. Thanks.
And please, I know that there are many wise, experienced people on this board, and I really appreciate all of your wonderful help and advice. But please do not tell me that I am too young and "noble" and overambitious to resist my sexual impulses. I am determined to do this no matter what you say, so let's stop saying it please. And again, I am not trying to become an ascetic. One inch of progress is all I am aiming for, just ONE inch. Once I acheive that, then maybe I'll start thinking about the next inch. Thank you for understanding.
Edited by strazin 2007-09-03 7:42 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Strazin,
The best thing you can do for yourself is get yourself a girlfriend, have some sex, and/or get married, become a householder. I'm very serious.
On the other hand......If you are even the slightest bit serious about your desire in relation to sex and think you are truly ready to give up all these aforementioned sexual desires for celebacy......best to go find a guru and follow his instructions to the "T". This I am being very serious as this is a very serious practice. Not one that should be embarked upon...ALONE, without a teacher/guru.
Best wishes. | |
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| Dear Starzin:
The key answers to your query is as follows:
a) You must develop respect and confidence for yourself. That means you must create a positive image of yourself.
b) Except your wife, or a definite fiance, or even a girlfriend whom you consider as fiance/wife (If I had a girl friend - what is that? - I would consider her as my wife only. What else?), all other ladies should be considered ONLY as: your sister, your aunti, your mother, your daughter, etc. This is the image you should develop to counteract your current lustful feeling.
Peace
strazin - 2007-09-03 7:41 PM
kulkarnn - 2007-09-03 5:33 PM
This is a classical example of the fact that 'all knowledge can not always be gotten from the book'.
Yes. I agree. Sometimes the truth can even slap you right across the face, and you STILL don't get it.
kulkarnn - 2007-09-03 5:33 PM
To know the Truth in a ultimate way is for one 'who is ready to sacrifice everything else in the search of truth'.
Okay. I am sure that this is true. But this idea is not something I can fully grasp at this point. I think my original question about purity is much simpler than this.
My goal is simply to put a positive spin on my desire to overcome my lustful impulses. Swami Sivananda advises us to get rid of negative thoughts by thinking of contrary positive, inspiring thoughts. For example, if you are depressed and gloomy, he reccomends to think of cheerfulness and bliss. Tell yourself, "I am full of cheerfulness. I am full of bliss." It is a wonderfully simple solution. Difficult yes, but you do not have to be an ascetic in search of the "ultimate" truth to benefit from this simple method of positive thinking.
Let me ask my question in a different way. What kind of positive, inspiring thoughts can I think about to replace my lustful thoughts? I have tried saying, "I am full of purity!" But I don't understand what is so good and positive about purity. I feel a bit silly asking about this, since purity should obviously be positive. Perhaps you could dumb it down for me. And I also don't understand why lustful thoughts are impure. A lustful person can not be pure? I don't understand why not.
I am not necessarily trying to become an ascetic and practice complete celibacy. I am simply trying to find a way to think positive thoughts when I am overcome by negative, lustful thoughts. What can I think about? If anyone has any other ideas for positive thoughts, affirmations, images, or qualities, I would love to hear it. I could use all the help I can get. Thanks.
And please, I know that there are many wise, experienced people on this board, and I really appreciate all of your wonderful help and advice. But please do not tell me that I am too young and "noble" and overambitious to resist my sexual impulses. I am determined to do this no matter what you say, so let's stop saying it please. And again, I am not trying to become an ascetic. One inch of progress is all I am aiming for, just ONE inch. Once I acheive that, then maybe I'll start thinking about the next inch. Thank you for understanding. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 101
| Dear Strazin,
I would like to help you further but I feel we are approaching the limits of this medium for communication.
You probably need face to face advice, so I suggest you find some proper guidance.
Perhaps Neel can help you further with this.
Knowing that it might be considered inappropriate for some on this forum, the picture at the link below illustrates my point of view.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee215/tweeva/linked/Woman.jpg
This was my final post on this subject. I wish you a good journey.
Tw | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| strazin - I hope you don't feel my comments are condescending or patronizing due to your age.(or any other reason). My comments were that your physical drive right now is as strong as a 1 year old's physical urge to learn to walk or my 50-ish self's hormonal drive to eat chocolate at certain intervals. These are built-in mechanisms that are strongly reinforced by social and cultural patterns. So what I am saying is not that the urges are impossible to curb, but that you are at the highest point of this biological/social drive, consequently the toughest time to reduce it.
Now, for turning negative thoughts to positive, this is another story altogether and perhaps not so difficult. Some people turn rejection against the person who rejects them- "oh, I didn't like her anyway, she is to short/tall etc." Not to mention rude. I would automatically reject those who were rude - why pursue someone with bad manners? Some become exceptionally choosy and have a wish list a mile long of all the attributes their ideal partner must have, automatically rejecting anyone who does not fall within those parameters. They tend to be lonely for a long, long time... I like Neel's example to treat every woman as though she were your sister or mother. This would automatically take away a lot of pressure and would likely make you appear quite likeable and approachable to others. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Here's an article I found from another news link:
Women 'choosier' over partners
Men placed a high store on beauty
Men look for beauty, while women go for wealth when it comes to assessing future partners, researchers say.
An Indiana University team looked at the behaviour of 46 people taking part in a speed-dating session.
They found that the men were more likely to go for the more attractive women, while women opted for those who could give the best financial security.
Men were also likely to want to date more women, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported.
Speed-dating is becoming an increasingly popular way for singles to meet, involving scores of mini-dates whereby couples get a few minutes to get to know each other.
Men will often find themselves falling into relationships by default after starting off looking for sexual adventure
Dr Glenn Wilson, relationships expert
Researchers said speed-dating offered a good model to analyse the factors people take into account when choosing partners as it offered a "microcosm" of daily life.
During the research, participants were asked what they were looking for. The most common response was to find someone who was like themselves.
But once the speed-dating sessions began, participants began conforming to set patterns, according to the analysis of questionnaires filled in.
The report said men sought the more attractive women and the women were drawn to material wealth and security.
Furthermore, while men on average wanted to see every second woman again, the women wanted to meet only a third of men.
Choosing
Lead researcher Peter Todd said the study showed the public reverted to type when choosing a mate.
"While humans may pride themselves on being highly evolved, most still behave like the stereotypical Neanderthals when it comes to choosing a mate.
"Evolutionary theories in psychology suggest that men and women should trade off different traits in each other and when we look at the actual choices people make, this is what we find evidence for."
Dr Glenn Wilson, a relationships expert at the Institute of Psychiatry in London, added: "It is well known that men select women for fairly superficial reasons, whereas women think much more about the long-term and the qualities and resources needed to bring up children.
"Men will often find themselves falling into relationships by default after starting off looking for sexual adventure." | |
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| I read this article earlier.... another classic example of the scientific community researching the bleeding obvious!
Fee | |
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| I got this from the Saints of India. However, when started, it does take a good amount of time to internalize. For example, when I came to USA, I did not much about Africans. In New Zealand, where I was before, there were almost none. I had a wrong idea of Africans due to whatever reading I had encountered before. When I started getting blacks in my Yoga classes, I found them to be different from what I was informed. I found them to be extremely intelligent, artistic, and beautiful. Not all, you know what I mean, they had many like this. Now, to change my view on them, I went to their homes, ate with them, and spent a lot of time with them. It took me long time to internalize my new finding. Today, I have at least 2 black women who are almost as as close as my blood sisters. Boy, that took a long time.
Whereas, with whites, it took much less time, and even I married a Hindu White woman, who is as Hindu as an Indian, perhaps.
tourist - 2007-09-04 10:14 AM
I like Neel's example to treat every woman as though she were your sister or mother. This would automatically take away a lot of pressure and would likely make you appear quite likeable and approachable to others. | |
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| I recently came across the following article. I'm not saying I agree with it necessarily, but it does include some ideas on your control concerns. Some build on what Neel has already said.
http://www.al-islam.org/m_morals/chap3.htm
Fee | |
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| Alright. It looks like nobody really understands my situation or my goals. We keep hammering on the same points over and over again. That's fine. I'm sure you all tried your best. But I am closing the discussion of this topic from my end. Thank you to everybody for the advice, suggestions, and ariticles -- and pictures.
By the way, Tweeva, that was a beautiful picture. But in the future, if I ever want a naked, tatooed woman to tell me why I need to have sex, I will just watch MTV. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Oh Strazin,
Relax. Somebody's bound to come along really soon and hit the nail on the head for ya. Hang in there!
I'm with ya on the naked tatooed woman picture..I didn't get it either,  | |
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| Cyndi - 2007-09-05 7:40 PM
Relax. Somebody's bound to come along really soon and hit the nail on the head for ya.
Ya think that somebody's likely to nail him, wink, wink, nudge, nudge? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | GreenJello - 2007-09-05 8:57 PM
Cyndi - 2007-09-05 7:40 PM
Relax. Somebody's bound to come along really soon and hit the nail on the head for ya.
Ya think that somebody's likely to nail him, wink, wink, nudge, nudge?
Not I. I'll leave it to the professional "expert" yogis of yoga.com, | |
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| Dear Starzin:
It is atually you, who is not making your situation clear. And, that is why you are getting all the same points again and again. I see all the following symptoms in you. Correct me if you want:
a) I see that you are not used to playing with girls from your childhood and have been kept possibly isolated from them. And, therefore, you feel not so natural in their company. I myself was like that until I came to USA at the age of 30. Of course, I was not shy, but I was not used to talking with ladies for long. Boy, I am glad that I made an attempt to overcome this, because it was must for my IT profession.
b) I see that you are possibly lacking friendship due to your ways with girls. This is because, it is impossible to avoid girls in today's society. Of course, if you are going towards Monkhood, then you should avoid them. But, if you are going to stay in the society, then you must NOT avoid them.
c) I suggest you the following: Talk this issue peacefully with your parents, and close friends if you have any. Also, definitely meet the girls considering them as your sister, mother, whatever you like. If the girls of your age are not cooperating, meet them at clubs such as Toast Masters, Yoga Studios, Sports places, Gyms, etc. If your family allows, try to get into relation with one girl, as a girl-friend/wife/fiance/etc. I myself can not have a girl friend. She has to be my wife. I married my wife right away. But, considering your age, position, etc., if you were my son, and wanting to live in USA, you can not avoid this issue.
d) If you want to avoid Girl Friend issue, and still have friends, you can move to India. You shall have no problems. I guarantee you.
e) I think your issue is more social and you are trying to address it by Yoga practice, a wrong approach. | |
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| Gotta agree with Neel on that. Just putting yourself in a position to deal with women as people is HUGE! Definitely a nice side effect of going to a studio. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I am wondering if it would help if we changed the topic of the object of desire, strazin? If we discussed this as a desire for fast cars (not a biological urge in itself, though the desire for acquisition or for speed is, I think) or food? I sense that you are more interested in the aspect of quenching the desire or removing attachment to it than the aspect of "how to deal with women" in general. Yes? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | strazin: Alright. It looks like nobody really understands my situation or my goals. We keep hammering on the same points over and over again. That's fine. I'm sure you all tried your best. But I am closing the discussion of this topic from my end.
Dude. Most of us have been there one way or another. Hell, I'm 40, divorced and still struggling with finding the right balance for intimacy. I really have no "desire" to be celibate. I think we have these heart and minds and bodies to share. The best advice I've seen for you is get a girl friend. I personally had trouble with that at 20. The only issue I had then with having a libido, was not having anyone to share it with.
Cyndi: You're never going to find perfect, but what you do have to find is COMPROMISE. I think men have big issues with that lost art. Women really are more open to it than you think they are.
I really had to choke on this. I'll say simply, that has not been my experience with women. Most men I talk to say the same, there simply is no compromise with women. I'd suggest the toothpaste cap example might be more about retentiveness than compromise. I'll also own that I'm retentive. But retentive is about small things. Compromise is about bigger issues. And it's near impossible to get a woman to declare anything on a big issue, much less move to the middle.
Green Jello: One day a woman worthy of compromising for will show up, until that time I'm going to keep on keeping on.
I'd suggest modifying that outlook. Don't compromise for anyone. But find someone you can compromise with. I gave up a lot of stuff I think all come secondary to a relationship, but the other didn't see it that way. I could probably give up or delay on those things again. But this time, I'll only do it with someone who sees why it's worth it, and truly joins me in life. Which is why I say compromise with someone, make it a conscious joint endeavor. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yes - compromising WITH (I can't do italics...) is a good way of putting it. For the toothpaste example - instead of whining, whinging and feeling oh-so-sorry for oneself - buy two tubes! Keeps the germs separate, too. When a couple is in the midst of such a tug-of-war, such simple solutions are often not obvious | |
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| That's a good point, I like the idea of compromising WITH somebody. I really felt like I was doing ALL the compromising in the last relationship I was in, so the idea of compromising with is a really good one. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-09-05 11:32 PM
It is atually you, who is not making your situation clear. And, that is why you are getting all the same points again and again.
You could be right. Okay. I will explain the particulars of my situation in great detail. Read if you are interested.
kulkarnn - 2007-09-05 11:32 PM
a) I see that you are not used to playing with girls from your childhood and have been kept possibly isolated from them. And, therefore, you feel not so natural in their company.
No. I have been around females my whole life. I went to coed schools, where the girls and boys talked freely with one another. But there is another issue which is probably related to what you are trying to say.
I have a sharp facial deformity. My lower jaw extends about one inch in front of my upper jaw. It gives my face an extremely hostile, aggressive look. This is probably why I make such a negative first impression on others, particularly females, when I first approach them. I do not blame them. My own mother cringes when I smile. "That's not really how you smile is it?" she once asked in surprise.
Of course, since the first grade, the other kids teased me mercilessly about my face whenever I laughed or smiled or did anything else which showed my teeth. So gradually, I learned a valuable life lesson: Do not laugh or smile.
I did cry a lot, though, when I was a kid. Although, interestingly, the kids were pretty tame when compared to what the dentists had to say. "Oh dear God! Look at his teeth! Hey guys come look at this. Oh man, poor kid, you need surgery."
I am not exaggerating. In fact, the dentists filled my head with many horrible ideas (not health related in any way) which I will not mention here. And yes, these are the same dentists which claim to occasionally help people.
Naturally, I became very self-conscious and bitter. Finally, in high school, I discovered the wonderful art of self-deprecating humor. I learned to take a step back and make fun of myself with style and flare. I beat the living snot out of my self-esteem before anyone else had a chance. This took the wind out of their sails. Now, people thought I was funny. Or mentally retarded.
Eventually, in college, I gradually learned to get over it. Detachment from the body in a way. Now, I go out and smile -- yes, even at the expense of others. Sucks for them! And I started making an effort to socialize.
kulkarnn - 2007-09-05 11:32 PM
I think your issue is more social and you are trying to address it by Yoga practice, a wrong approach.
I am trying to address this issue on many different fronts, including yoga. I have recently been forcing myself to go out and participate in more social activities. I became a writer for my college newspaper. I joined the improvisational comedy club. I have started doing volunteer work for community service which allows me to interact with a wide variety of people. I also spent a good part of the summer in Berkeley, staying with some friends who are going to college there. I tried an experiment. Every day, I went out on the street and talked to five random females, just being friendly and casual, trying to keep the conversation going for as long as possible. I approached about 200 females in this way. I have never been more frightened in my life. I was completely terrified, especially in the beginning. So it was a very good experience for me. I also plan on trying standup comedy someday soon. I don’t plan on being good. It is just another big thing I am very afraid of doing. I have also been trying to start my own software company since the summer, which I really believe will succeed, maybe within two or three years.
However, I believe that yoga is by far the best option. My goal is to find a source of inner strength which is independent of a female’s approval, a strength which is unaffected by mean children, retarded dentists, and pretty girls. If you do not believe that meditation can develop this type of inner strength, then I don’t know what to tell you. (By the way, people, please reread this paragraph, and then reread it again. THIS is my goal. My goal is NOT to get laid. My goal is NOT to meet girls or get married.)
kulkarnn - 2007-09-05 11:32 PM
b) I see that you are possibly lacking friendship due to your ways with girls. This is because, it is impossible to avoid girls in today's society. Of course, if you are going towards Monkhood, then you should avoid them. But, if you are going to stay in the society, then you must NOT avoid them.
Yes, I was never one of the popular kids. But I have always had a group of 3-4 close friends at all times in my life.
kulkarnn - 2007-09-05 11:32 PM
c) If your family allows, try to get into relation with one girl, as a girl-friend/wife/fiance/etc.
No. I have no intention of ever getting married or having kids. It ends here with me. I also do not depend on my parents for financial support. I have been paying my way through college and supporting all my expenses for the past three years by playing poker for a living (and I go to Carnegie Mellon, so it ain’t cheap).
Poker is actually the main reason that I have become so interested in yoga. I made a decent amount of money playing the game over the last few years, and I was very happy with my success for a while. But sometime last year, I had an epiphany. I realized that I didn’t even spend any money. It just piled up in my bank account and had no function other than an empty source of pride. It was useless. I tried spending it on some nice things: Big TV, fancy computers, fancy clothes, etc. But none of this really did it for me. I realized that (cliché alert) money did not make me happy.
I crashed so hard after I understood this. Does anyone else know what this feels like? To work so hard for more than two years, investing all your time and energy to achieve a goal. Then you finally get it. But suddenly you realize, “Wait, this is stupid.”
I lost all my drive to play poker and continue making money after this. I lost my drive to study and start a career. I nearly dropped out of school at one point. “What is the point?” I kept asking myself. “This is not who I am.” I became very depressed for a while, about six months. I put some money aside for my education. Then I gave the rest to my parents and my sister. I told them they could spend it all on gumballs if they wished. Now, I was poor again.
I desperately searched around for other ways to spend my time. This is when I started experimenting with the random social activities I described above. Eventually, I stumbled across the Bhagavad Gita somewhere on the internet. I read through it and became extremely confused, though somewhere deep inside, I was inspired.
I knew right then that the Gita contained the solution. It spoke of a consciousness which supersedes all dualities, pain and pleasure, rich and poor, ugly and beautiful. This idea shed a new light on my recent feelings of disillusionment. I felt that I was already making much progress on this path. I had already become detached from wealth and greed (although, strangely, I am still pursuing my idea for a software company. I am not sure why I am doing it. It is not for money. Perhaps it is just curiosity.) And I had also become fairly detached from my body, as I learned to view my deformed face with humor. I wanted to completely master this mindset and achieve the mental control the Gita spoke so highly of. Thus, I immediately started to practice meditation and have been practicing since then.
However, I quickly realized that even with those two obstacles out of the way, there are still many more I must overcome, particularly my attachment to females. Intellectually, I know that the sexual desire is empty, just as my desire for money was empty. However, my brain is not cooperating with me. It refuses to accept what I know to be true. It insists on obsessing over females, even though I KNOW that the desire is meaningless and counterproductive. It is a frustrating battle.
This is why I posted my original question on the boards. I want to convince my brain to get over the sexual desire so that I can continue on my path of meditation. I am very happy when I make progress with my meditation. It is the only substantial form of happiness I have ever experienced.
Anyway, this is my life story at twenty. I hope you enjoyed. I still do not expect anyone to understand, as I have already told this story to my family and friends many times. They all think I am insane.
Edited by strazin 2007-09-07 7:30 AM
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| Probably your brain is just reacting to your bodies natural hormones. From your original post you wrote:
I never realized that I had so little control, and it really bothers me.
To me it seems not reacting to your feelings is control. I think your learning your lessons from the hand that life dealt you, and thats admirable. You're continuing to learn, and not being hard or bitter. Don't beat yourself up because you have feelings. You're moving forward, and you're open to life. You should pat yourself on the back, and continue your journey. | |
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| strazin - 2007-09-07 7:18 AM
However, I quickly realized that even with those two obstacles out of the way, there are still many more I must overcome, particularly my attachment to females. Intellectually, I know that the sexual desire is empty, just as my desire for money was empty. However, my brain is not cooperating with me. It refuses to accept what I know to be true. It insists on obsessing over females, even though I KNOW that the desire is meaningless and counterproductive. It is a frustrating battle.
Intellectual understanding is not useful when dealing with your emotions or desires.
In the case of the money, you came to this conclusion via experience, rather than detached intellectual exercise. I suggest that you overcome your attachment to women in the same manner. Get to know them, talk to them, have a girlfriend or two. Fall in love, experience another person really deeply. Get your heart broken, break some other people's hearts. Experience joy and sadness. Find out that it IS a hollow experience for you, rather than just attempting to convince yourself with mental arguments. I feel that anything else is just sitting there on the battlefield refusing to fight. | |
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| strazin - 2007-09-07 3:18 PM
My goal is to find a source of inner strength which is independent of a female’s approval, a strength which is unaffected by mean children, retarded dentists, and pretty girls. If you do not believe that meditation can develop this type of inner strength, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Meditation can develop this type of inner strength, though with regular practise it may still take you decades to achieve....
With regard to your orginal question on controlling your desire when you see women. If you believe that your sexual feelings are above and beyond what is normal for your age and sex then begin to recognise that these are only fleeting, surface feelings that you are experiencing and practise this extreme but effective Buddhist technique:
Picture in your mind the same person with no skin covering their body and as you imagine looking at their bloody vein covered muscles, ask yourself if you still desire them now? Or imagine them old or with a horrible skin disease. Are they still attractive to you now?
You mention that you meditate for 30 mins, twice a day. What type of meditation do you practise?
Jonathon
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| dear Starzin:
Now, you shall accept that your OP does not convey what you wanted to say or ask. Anyway, do not give up. You are an amazingly great person. I shall have to do further talk with you in person, if you choose to do so. Your problem is not a general problem, but a particular situation. And, the solution has to be particular, too. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | strazin, thank you for sharing all that.
It makes my comment about getting a girlfriend seem almost callous. It wasn't, of course. But you definitely have a unique case. And it's clear why you have arrived where you are at 20. Perhaps that is your path, to control this desire.
Beauty really does lie within, and sometimes it's the exterior that shapes the interior.
I have an old friend who was born with no nerves in has face and a club foot. The club foot you can cover up. The no nerves in his face is what affects him daily. He cannot smile. If you know him, you quickly recognize how he laughs, his whole body moves. But on first impression, he looks like a grown kid with downs syndrome. He's pretty open about this. But what he's not so open about is how much crap he got growing up. I met another person in college who said he went to elementary school with him, and he related how awful people were to him.
What I admire most about Larry is how much he's had to overcome. He's one of the funniest people I know. He doesn't make fun of himself. But he's also one of the most fair people I know. In college, when we were all sitting around drinking or whatever, and throwing around good natured put downs, if someone was getting picked on too much, he'd be the first to place a zinger on the person who was too cool for school. He knew what it was like to be the one picked on, and he'd even it up.
I'm currently doing Improv for a similar reason as you chatted up the 200 girls, it places in me in a challenging situation. I think comedy and Improv would be great outlets. We have a guy in the troupe who is slay-me-dead funny. Overweight in the John Candy way, and he refers to his physique often in his act. I would suggest be self-depreciating, it's a good way to disarm people--you've already figured that out. But, dammit, be kind to yourself! Don't ever be brutal.
And also know, there are people out there who will recognize what is within you. The first time I met Larry was at a football game, and I thought someone was bringing a retarded kid to a football game, sort of as a social service. He became one of my best friends and a roommate for 3 years.
Ok, I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds or jumped to conclusions.
I have an idea for a book you might read, sort of related to poker and money and satisfaction with success that gives you money. But explaining why might be too complex. If you're interested, Private Message me. | |
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| jonnie - 2007-09-07 10:34 AM
You mention that you meditate for 30 mins, twice a day. What type of meditation do you practise?
I practice the following: Focus on the point between the eyebrows. Visualize the bright sun at that point. Hear the sound OM emanating from the point. Feel the breath flowing through the point. I try to coordinate all three senses together into the single point simultaneously. If I am focussing well, I also add another spice. I imagine certain positive qualities symbolized by the sun: strength, love, confidence, courage, freedom. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| strazin - I am overwhelmed by your story and soooo impressed at how you have dealt with it. One thing that we have probably already said is that you really need to be patient with yourself. The level of understanding you have reached at such a young age with essentially no guidance is amazing. I say stay in school and go ahead and make tons of money. You will find a good use for it, I'm sure Read the Dalai Lama's works. Read Eknath Eswaren. Keep practicing, keep meditating and continue on your path to being a great person. And keep being funny - life without laughter is no life at all | |
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| strazin,
You are receiving a lot of advice here. For a palate freshener, try reading some J. Krishnamurti.
Namaste,
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | DJ Dre - 2007-09-06 6:55 PM
Cyndi: You're never going to find perfect, but what you do have to find is COMPROMISE. I think men have big issues with that lost art. Women really are more open to it than you think they are.
I really had to choke on this. I'll say simply, that has not been my experience with women. Most men I talk to say the same, there simply is no compromise with women. I'd suggest the toothpaste cap example might be more about retentiveness than compromise. I'll also own that I'm retentive. But retentive is about small things. Compromise is about bigger issues. And it's near impossible to get a woman to declare anything on a big issue, much less move to the middle.
Well, Dr. Dre...if that made you choke, perhaps there's something else going on here.
I find it interesting that you tried to un-validate my statements just because you had a terrible experience with women. I could go back into my history with men and tell you all kinds of stories about how phsycho men have treated me. You have no idea.
Anyway, that 's beside the point. I used to claim the "victim" and "bashed and battered" syndrome when it came to my relationships with men and break ups. However, I got to a point where I learned that the universe brought every single one of those experiences to me so that I could learn and grow. It's amazing when you start looking at it from that perspective, rather than choosing to be a victim of it. It's also amazing when you take those experiences and apply them to how you deal with any relationship. I like to think of my relationships as my studies of the human experiment...oops, experience,
The funny part of all now days... I LOVE MEN. I'm always going to be the girl who plays with the boys next door. The leader of the boys club. All my friends are boys...or men, whichever...doesn't matter, cause I'm still a girl at heart, | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2007-09-06 7:56 PM
Yes - compromising WITH (I can't do italics... ) is a good way of putting it. For the toothpaste example - instead of whining, whinging and feeling oh-so-sorry for oneself - buy two tubes! Keeps the germs separate, too. When a couple is in the midst of such a tug-of-war, such simple solutions are often not obvious
Well, I never meant anything else...my definition of a compromise is not a one-sided issue. It takes 2 to tango....it also takes 2 to compromise, otherwise it is not a compromise!! Then it becomes something else...like a SACRIFICE...and I definitely do not believe in that, unless of course it is BY CHOICE. I've done those too. Some have been successful, whereas some have not.
I WAS NEVER obsessed with the toothpaste issue. I could of cared less. I'm the footloose fancy free spirit....this guy was not. He was anal-retentive about everything!! It was obvious that I brought something to that relationship that he didn't dare want to face about himself. He couldn't handle me and that was okay....I would of had to SACRIFICE in that relationship, and that would NOT have been a very wise choice for that particular man. BECAUSE....
Several months later I met my next husband and we had our beautiful daughter together. Even though we are now divorced, we are still very close and are best friends. It's a beautiful relationship...better than having a husband, | |
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| Cyndi - I think a lot of people get compromise and sacrifice confused, don't you? And I agree, sometimes sacrifice is the right path. It takes a certain degree of maturity to be able to sacrifice wisely. I am treading a path like that now. For many, many years, I sat at home while my husband ran around and had fun with his sports. Now he is not able to spend those many hours away from home and wants me to be available to do things with him. But in the meantime I have taken up practicing and teaching and want and need that time for my own activities. Rather than being aggressive and selfish about it, I am trying to take the attitude I wish he had during those years and find a good balance between time I am entitled to and recognizing his needs as well. Of course now and then when he whines about having to spend another evening alone, I just tell him this is karma at work and he just has to suck it up! | |
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Location: Oregon | Cyndi, I didn't start with sexism, such as: I think men have big issues with that lost art (of compromise). I am not trying to invalidate your experience. And I've got my experience, but I also said it's not just me, but most men I talk with. I take issue with the broad stroke you used. I think men compromise just fine.
Not sure if you're suggesting I'm playing a victim or not. I don't think I am. Mostly I've been a fool. I made a bad choice and didn't see signs the whole time. I am owning that more than at any other time in my life. I may be bitter, but I'm no victim. It's my fault for not seeing things as they really are.
FWIW, I haven't had terrible experiences with women. But I do feel used and discarded. I don't particularly like being an experiment or an experience for someone else. You could be right, though... maybe that's the path I'm supposed to embrace. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | DJ Dre - 2007-09-11 12:37 AM
Cyndi, I didn't start with sexism, such as: I think men have big issues with that lost art (of compromise). I am not trying to invalidate your experience. And I've got my experience, but I also said it's not just me, but most men I talk with. I take issue with the broad stroke you used. I think men compromise just fine.
Sexism??? Come on', that statement is NOT sexist. I'm sorry you took it that way. That was not my intention. Men too, do have lots of issues when it comes to emotional things and dealing with women. From what you stated in your experience, you yourself had or have some issues. I've had my share too, so therefore, you can't say that was sexist. I'm definitely NOT claiming superiority in this department. I never denied my old issues, I'm just an old "has-been" and "been there and done that" when it comes to relationships gone sour. I can't even count how many relationships I've had. All I can say, is that it certainly has provided me with enough wisdom to know when something's F**ked up about it or when its not going favorable, to get the hell out. HOWEVER, I will dare say this. Haven't you ever heard the statement, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"?? The lost art that I'm referring to is that in today's world, Men have lost the art in dealing with women. Women have also lost the art in dealing with Men. Its not something thats being taught by parents anymore. In fact, its getting rather complicated and is the reason I think we have more Gay and Lesbians in today's society. No one wants to try to learn how to deal with the opposite sex anymore. It comes from having a lack of understanding about the true nature of each sex...male and female. Most children today have no clue because their parents have F**ked up and/or broken relationships. There are other reasons too, I just don't have the energy to list all the reasons...but, you get the jist of it, right?
For the record, I think women compromise just fine too. In fact, not only do I think we compromise just fine, I think we also sacrafice more than men do. But, see that's my perspective based on my observations and experience. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. So, we should leave that one alone....for sure,
Not sure if you're suggesting I'm playing a victim or not.
Playing the victim is kinda like going into survival mode...we all do it as a first initial reaction...especially when it comes to relationships that have gone awry. Doesn't matter if we are the fool, or made bad choices. My belief is that there is no bad choice...it's all karma. We can't stop it unless we're ahead of ourselves. Even when we *think* we've got it....it has a way of turning *nasty* back onto us if we aren't careful. Which is why I LOVE YOGA!! It's the only salvation to negative karma, I believe.
FWIW, I haven't had terrible experiences with women. But I do feel used and discarded. I don't particularly like being an experiment or an experience for someone else. You could be right, though... maybe that's the path I'm supposed to embrace.
Well that's a contradictory statement. You haven't had "terrible" experiences, but you feel used and discarded. Hmm?? I'm sorry if you were offended by my experiment/experience statement. That was merely my observation about the human life condition. From a yogic viewpoint, it is a life experience or karma. Relationships are part of our journey...not our destination. Some are brief, some are long-lasting and some may even last for 7 lifetimes. It's the karmic attachments that we have that keep us bound to these relationships. It's an interesting concept to observe, analyse and study. Unfortunately, our society and cultures also keep us bound and chained to relationships and the idea of it all. Frankly, its all BS if you ask me. But, that's coming from someone who has realized that I can't take my relationships with me and am slowly gradually getting my fill of the entire concept of relationships. Frankly, I get upset at times that I was manipulated and used myself...all in the name of Relationships...Marriage....oh, and if you have a kid with someone, they think you are bound for eternity....NOT. I've been divorced 3 times. My last husband is the only person that I have a deep respect for that I would even consider coming back and having a relationship with. But then again, Hindsite is such a perfect science,
Yes, Tourist, I do believe confusion lies somewhere between Compromise and Sacrifice....been there and done that too!
Edited by Cyndi 2007-09-11 6:47 PM
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Edited by SCThornley 2007-09-12 10:44 AM
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Expert Yogi
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| ascent magazine http://www.ascentmagazine.com has some fascinating articles about desire and sexuality this issue. Both "a wheel in motion-examining the potential of our own hidden wisdom" by Swami Radha and "being present with desire" by Noah Levine are great. Both are online. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Men have lost the art in dealing with women. Women have also lost the art in dealing with Men.
Well, now... if you had said that last part in the post a ways back this would have been preventable. But see, you also said: For the record, I think women compromise just fine too. In fact, not only do I think we compromise just fine, I think we also sacrafice more than men do.
I used to agree with statements like that. I don't any more. We each contribute. It's the keeping score that has to stop.
FWIW, I wasn't offended by your experiment/experience metaphor. All I can say is that I'm not wired that way. I mated for life. That's not a cultural pressure, it just is. I don't look at relationship as an experiment or temporary thing. Or I didn't. Now, in some ways, I do have to look at it differently. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | DJ Dre - 2007-09-15 9:00 AM
Men have lost the art in dealing with women. Women have also lost the art in dealing with Men.
Well, now... if you had said that last part in the post a ways back this would have been preventable. But see, you also said: For the record, I think women compromise just fine too. In fact, not only do I think we compromise just fine, I think we also sacrafice more than men do.
geez, don't take it so literally. Are you going to pick my words apart DJ?? If you think about that word sacrifice and what I may have meant by that. Men don't have babies and their emotions are not as intense. I'm speaking generally here and based on the western society era 15-20 years ago. Which to some men that may seem weak or they may think we are out of control. It's really not easy being a woman, we are very sensitive. We also worry alot about our children, others children, then some of us worry about the children of the earth, because we are similar to Mother Earth..we are the givers of life and we are the caretakers of the children. If you ever give birth to a child, then you understand this concept of what I'm talking about. My experience with men is that they don't think about women on these terms. I'm sure the womens' equal rights movement is partly to blame and what destroyed this about men and women in our society.
I used to agree with statements like that. I don't any more. We each contribute. It's the keeping score that has to stop.
Who the hell has time to keep score. I could barely keep up with my self, much less keeping score....although...I have seen these people and couples...they drive me totally INSANE.
FWIW, I wasn't offended by your experiment/experience metaphor. All I can say is that I'm not wired that way. I mated for life. That's not a cultural pressure, it just is. I don't look at relationship as an experiment or temporary thing. Or I didn't. Now, in some ways, I do have to look at it differently.
Yes, I know this about alot of people who mate for life and so on. I once thought that about myself...until....I took the Yoga plunge...that all changed drastically. Especially about the relationships being temporary and all.
Actually, we all have our differences and we all have our "unique" karmas. I know mine have been extraordinarly unique, to say the least. I also think we experience them and have our own way of processing them and life. Another words, we all have a different set of glasses on.
When I came into yoga, it sure did help my seeing things alot more healthier. On the other hand, there were parts to my practice that were so blatant and scary too. Talk about eye openers. At first, I used to wish I could go back and be a normal person and not have to see these things and be safe and all. I managed to pull through...as they say, "through the grace of the guru". So much truth in that.
Okay, its been fun having this chat DJ. Take care,
Edited by Cyndi 2007-09-15 9:39 AM
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| Very interesting post and one I have spent many years in contemplation over. The difference is that I am 41. Depending on your past lives this may be a very deeply rooted samskara (impression). Wether its this one or another type we all have these "issues" to deal with.
Right now your spending a lot of time "meditating" on women. One thing right off the bat I would advocate is not to try to supress or reject what's in your mind. the opposite of attachment is aversion. It's merely one form of the other.
All thoughts are merely contracted forms of consiousness. See them as that. They are still consciousness. Just witness your thougts and keep doing your practises. Dont give up in frustration.
As for the practical application of dealing with women in your life just remember they will always be part of your spiritual journey. Enjoy yourself and your interactions with them. I personally found out that the more I did my practises the more women became attracted to me. Women are much more "tuned" in to energy then the average man is. (I know this is a terrible blanket statement but forgive me their is truth is in). Its a beautiful paradox. The more tuned in you are to your inner self the more women will desire to be with you. And then you will be in a much better state to deal with all those ramifications. | |
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| It sounds like a struggle between your lower and higher self. It's my understanding that meditation increases the vibration of our energy. Lust on the other hand is a lower form of vibration. Try realizing that women are more then just looks, turn that attraction to who they are Spiritually. Respect. | |
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| I can understand your eagerness to control those distracting thoughts. The solution can be as simple as this. Start yoga practice. It is not necessary that you have to remove all distracting thoughts before commencing yoga practice. For some time they can co exist. But as the intensity of your yoga practice increases it will occupy your mind more than anything else. For instance even if you start yoga practice to have a nice glowing body so that you can attract women eventually the very practice of yoga gradually gives you control of your thoughts.
A noble act even if done with false intensions can bring about permanent positive changes in your personality. A simple cause effect relation is " Practice " >> "Habits" >> "Character" . In other words practice leads to habit formation and habit forms character. That is the efficacy of a good practice.
Someone has written that if you are distracted by a pretty girl while practicing yoga you may do it wrongly and cause injuries to yourself. This is an exaggeration. Start an intensive practice and you will find an answer yourself.
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| Fantastic. Thank you Rishi. Namaste.
rishi - 2008-03-11 3:25 AM
A noble act even if done with false intensions can bring about permanent positive changes in your personality. A simple cause effect relation is " Practice " >> "Habits" >> "Character" . In other words practice leads to habit formation and habit forms character. That is the efficacy of a good practice.
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