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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Hello, a question for long term practitioners and folks well read on Yoga texts.
I picked up a book by Steven Cope, The Wisdom of Yoga. In it, it had an appendix with the Yoga Sutras. In reading it, and referring back to them, I started reading the Yoga Sutras for the first time. In fact, I've been pondering the Yoga Sutras and kind of stopped reading the book until recently. I've also been reading Light on Yoga and have become more familiar with the Bhagavad Gita.
I don't think the Yoga Sutras would have made much sense to me, they're so distilled, unless I had practiced a while. Well, I have been practicing a while now (3+ years, Bikram's mostly, but I've dabbled with other styles). A recent discussion here got me thinking along another line, and that was a good thing.
So I'm curious if there might be interest in a sort of book group similar to a bible study to discuss these texts and maybe our personal practice. And I've been thinking of putting up a flyer at my local studio or on Craigslist.
But do people do that sort of thing in the Yoga community? | |
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| The Yoga Study Group works only if: All the persons participating are actually studying and not gossiping in the group meetings without study at home. It also works if they have a similar goal and not opposing goals. For example, an academic goal is different from practical goal. And, the study group has balance of skills. Otherwise, one blind leads another blind. Or, a blind tries to lead a learned one. ETC.
DJ Dre - 2007-06-26 8:04 PM
Hello, a question for long term practitioners and folks well read on Yoga texts.
I picked up a book by Steven Cope, The Wisdom of Yoga. In it, it had an appendix with the Yoga Sutras. In reading it, and referring back to them, I started reading the Yoga Sutras for the first time. In fact, I've been pondering the Yoga Sutras and kind of stopped reading the book until recently. I've also been reading Light on Yoga and have become more familiar with the Bhagavad Gita.
I don't think the Yoga Sutras would have made much sense to me, they're so distilled, unless I had practiced a while. Well, I have been practicing a while now (3+ years, Bikram's mostly, but I've dabbled with other styles). A recent discussion here got me thinking along another line, and that was a good thing.
So I'm curious if there might be interest in a sort of book group similar to a bible study to discuss these texts and maybe our personal practice. And I've been thinking of putting up a flyer at my local studio or on Craigslist.
But do people do that sort of thing in the Yoga community? | |
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| I attend a regular sacred text study class held at my studio, not quite a study group, but the discussions do go all over the place, based on what we discuss any particular morning. Anyone can join the group at any time. The class is led by one of the owners of my studio, a well-studied jnana yogi and an initiate in raja (Integral) yoga. Classes fees are by donation. For the first month of the class (over two years ago), we started out with the sutras, then switched over to the Bhagavad Gita and have been there ever since. I believe we're at Book 5 right now. Some weeks we cover as many as 5-6 slokas, other times we back track if someone is new and may stall on one sloka if the concepts there are particularly challenging for some. The open discussion of the group is the best part of it. I've said this before here, that before I started attending this class regularly, I really wasn't practicing yoga. So yes, you're definitely on the right track by wanting to layer in studying and discussing yogic philosophy. Just last week I asked the teacher if we'd ever get back to studying the sutras as well. He said most likely in the fall, when the next crop of teacher trainees get started. Oh, and we always start the 45-minute class by centering ourselves (a short meditation) and a chant, usually Saha Navavatu, the Togetherness Mantra for Teacher and Student. We always close class with three Om Shantihs. It truly amazes me how this short weekly class has had such a longterm affect on my sense of peace. The chanting is a crucial part of it, I know for sure. Maybe you can find someone at a studio in your area with the expertise our teacher has to lead your group. We're in Northern New Jersey, so if you're ever in the area, come join us!
Edited by OrangeMat 2007-06-27 6:46 AM
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| DJ Dre - 2007-06-27 4:04 AM
But do people do that sort of thing in the Yoga community?
Yes definately.
I meet with the local Chinmaya Mission group to study the Gita every week.
Remember the old adage of garbage in, garbage out, so make sure that the people you study with are knowledgable and dedicated and that the environment is condusive for learning...
Jonathon
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | kulkarnn: For example, an academic goal is different from practical goal.
Could you elaborate on this?
Thanks for the comments, folks. I'm not sure how to go about finding a leader. And we're a smallish town. Not deterred, though. A Yoga studio in town had a fellow do a series of classes, now that I think of it. | |
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| DJ Dre - 2007-06-27 4:17 PM
kulkarnn: For example, an academic goal is different from practical goal.
====> Academic goal = How many types of practices are in Yoga, How many Vedas actually exist, and what are their contents? Whether Patanjali was born in 300 B>C or 400 B.C. Whether he wrote Grammer or only Yoga Text. ETC. ETC. Practical Goal = How I can myself learn and start doing meditation? How many months regularly I have meditated? ETC.
===> In other situation: Academic: Ph.D. in Indian Philosophy. Practical: Follower of Philosophy.
Could you elaborate on this?
Thanks for the comments, folks. I'm not sure how to go about finding a leader. And we're a smallish town. Not deterred, though. A Yoga studio in town had a fellow do a series of classes, now that I think of it. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | I found something up in Portland, Oregon, that might be interesting, a monthly series of weekend classes on PATANJALI’S YOGASUTRA – EXPLAINED, CHANTED AND PRACTICED with Chase Bossart of the Healing Yoga Foundation – San Francisco offered through Yoga Shala of Portland.
Yoga Shala of Portland was recommended to me by my local studio owner. Does anyone here have any experience with classes offered there or with Chase Bossart? | |
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| Hi Dre,
The Healing Yoga Foundation is the organisation of TKV Desikachar, the son of Sri Krishnamacharya (the teacher of BKS Iyengar and Sri Pattabhi Jois).
TKV Desikachar's work on the Yoga Sutra's is exceptional.
I'm sure if the trainer studied and is certified by him, they will be very good.
Jonathon
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Good to know, Jonnie. Thanks. | |
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| You're welcome.
Tell us how you get on.
Jonathon
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| Although, yoga is not a religion, the dharmaic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, even Jainism) incorporate one type or another. Therefore, in undertaking a yoga (text) study group one should remember to consider the focus of the material.
For example, texts such as the Bhagavad Gita, emphasize a Hindu viewpoint.
The Diamond Cutter sutra, on the other hand, or other texts of higher Buddhism, expresses a Buddhist side.
Texts on Hinduism and Buddhism, themselves are vast and diverse.
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| Fantastic. I agree fully. In other words, when one studies a Text, one has to try to get the original background, intention, and context of that text. And, not interprete that text in the light of today's physics, psychiatry, politics, etc. Thanks for that comment Kaos.
Kaos - 2007-06-29 10:59 PM
Although, yoga is not a religion, the dharmaic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, even Jainism) incorporate one type or another. Therefore, in undertaking a yoga (text) study group one should remember to consider the focus of the material.
For example, texts such as the Bhagavad Gita, emphasize a Hindu viewpoint.
The Diamond Cutter sutra, on the other hand, or other texts of higher Buddhism, expresses a Buddhist side.
Texts on Hinduism and Buddhism, themselves are vast and diverse.
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Expert Yogi
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| This is true in many fields. My son is taking a course on the Bible in English this term so he can better understand biblical references in English literature. He cannot understand what were common references to the Bible or religion in the 15th century since he has no context for it. | |
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| DJ Dre - 2007-06-26 8:04 PM
So I'm curious if there might be interest in a sort of book group similar to a bible study to discuss these texts and maybe our personal practice. And I've been thinking of putting up a flyer at my local studio or on Craigslist.
But do people do that sort of thing in the Yoga community?
From the POV of Buddhism, the intellectual comprehension to be gained under a yoga text study group, would fall under "wisdom arisen from thinking", and is not the same as fully grasping it.
Wisdom arisen from meditation occurs when one internalizes what one has learned and comprehends with direct perception beyond intellectual concepts.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Thanks for drawing that distinction, Kaos. Makes sense. I stated above that I don't think the Yoga Sutras would have made much sense to me if I had read them at the beginning of my practice. I've had some amazing experiences in the room, via Yoga. For a while they just kept rolling over me. And only now, 2-3 years later, am I starting to transition some of this to outside the room. For example, the most basic for me, stopping the old tapes that play in my head: Yoga is to still the patterning of consciousness.
Baby steps, for sure. Seems like it's taken forever, but I can now stop some of that. The component that is missing for me, I guess, is being part of a larger Yoga community. I'd like to hear about other's journeys. Maybe that would fit under the "wisdom arisen from thinking" heading. | |
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| DrDrj:
Ironically, if you want to study Buddhism you should not study Yoga Sutras of Patanjali because that is not a text on Buddhism. However, if you are studying comparison between Buddhism and Yoga, you should study the Yoga Sutras. But, then before that you should also study Buddhism. ETC. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-01 11:18 PM
DrDrj:
Ironically, if you want to study Buddhism you should not study Yoga Sutras of Patanjali because that is not a text on Buddhism. However, if you are studying comparison between Buddhism and Yoga, you should study the Yoga Sutras. But, then before that you should also study Buddhism. ETC.
Correct. Dharma is alive and manifested in a multitude of ways. Therefore, why should one put limits to the unlimited to one single book.
Dr. Dre, it seems that your Yoga Study Group can go on forever. 
And that is a good thing. Best wishes to your study group endeavors.
But let us not get too attached to the comprehension/thinking part of reading books. Practice is where the "rubber hits the road", so to speak.
Namaste
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| I fully agree. Practice is more important than (definitely) the Yoga Study Group. And, that is what is missing in many so called Study groups.
Kaos - 2007-07-02 5:11 AM
kulkarnn - 2007-07-01 11:18 PM
DrDrj:
Ironically, if you want to study Buddhism you should not study Yoga Sutras of Patanjali because that is not a text on Buddhism. However, if you are studying comparison between Buddhism and Yoga, you should study the Yoga Sutras. But, then before that you should also study Buddhism. ETC.
Correct. Dharma is alive and manifested in a multitude of ways. Therefore, why should one put limits to the unlimited to one single book.
Dr. Dre, it seems that your Yoga Study Group can go on forever.
And that is a good thing. Best wishes to your study group endeavors.
But let us not get too attached to the comprehension/thinking part of reading books. Practice is where the "rubber hits the road", so to speak.
Namaste
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Thanks again for all the comments, folks. I've practiced postures mostly, pretty intensely for the past 3 years. Now, I'd like to be more familiar with some of texts. It's part of my path, I think. (The class I'm taking does and hour of chanting, 2 hours of study on the sutras followed by an hour of posture practice.) | |
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| A four hour class. That's very impressive.
Tell us how you feel it compliments your Bikram practise...
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| DJ Dre - 2007-07-06 4:18 PM
Thanks again for all the comments, folks. I've practiced postures mostly, pretty intensely for the past 3 years. Now, I'd like to be more familiar with some of texts. It's part of my path, I think. (The class I'm taking does and hour of chanting, 2 hours of study on the sutras followed by an hour of posture practice.)
That's very good, and definitely a worthwhile endeavor, DJ Dre.
May I know, what sutra text/texts are studied in your yoga study group class?
Presently, I myself am studying the Tibetan Buddhist sacred text, "Liberation Through Hearing in the Transitional Phase of Death", with the guidance of my lama, who leads my meditation class.
Namaste and regards,
Kaos
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I myself am studying the Tibetan Buddhist sacred text, "Liberation Through Hearing in the Transitional Phase of Death", with the guidance of my lama, who leads my meditation class. Namaste and regards, Kaos Hi Kaos, Which Tibetan Lineage are you studying with?? Are they Tibetan? | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2007-07-01 11:18 PM DrDrj: Ironically, if you want to study Buddhism you should not study Yoga Sutras of Patanjali because that is not a text on Buddhism. In traditional Tibetan Buddhism the Rinpoches are very adamant about this. They teach that you should choose one path. Comparative studies is a totally different matter. Studying and Practice is also a different matter. To study only, is also similar to comparitive. To put it in practice, better just choose one and practice it to the best of your ability. Dabbling and bee bopping around is not a good practice. | |
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| Cyndi - 2007-07-08 3:35 PM
Hi Kaos, Which Tibetan Lineage are you studying with?? Are they Tibetan?
If I had to guess by Kaos' previous quotes, I would say the Venerable Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche and the FPMT
Jonathon
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| Cyndi - 2007-07-08 7:35 AM
Hi KaosWhich Tibetan Lineage are you studying with?? Are they Tibetan?
Hi Cyndi,
My Tibetan teacher belongs to the Karma Kagyu tradition, part of the Bodhi path centers, under the direction of HH Shamar Rinpoche.
Namaste,
Kaos
Edited by Kaos 2007-07-08 1:32 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Kaos: May I know, what sutra text/texts are studied in your yoga study group class?
I think it's a class just on the Yoga Sutras. I haven't seen a reading list yet--not sure if there is one. Seems like a good place to start. I'm just starting to read some of the basics, I guess I'd call them. Or at least the common or often mentioned titles. I'll see where it takes me. And, I'll report back, Jonnie. First class (Sat./Sun.) is in August. | |
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| Cyndi - 2007-07-08 7:42 AM
To study only, is also similar to comparitive. To put it in practice, better just choose one and practice it to the best of your ability. Dabbling and bee bopping around is not a good practice.
Yes. That's true. Even in Tibetan Buddhism, although there are certain practices common to all schools, it is recommended that you choose one path that you have a connection and stick with it. It is difficult enough to grasp one path, let alone dabbling in four.
Thank you for the post Cyndi.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Kaos...or should I say Tashi De Lek to you, The main reason the Rinpoches emphasized one path is similar to Yoga, it's all about the Guru and the relationship. That is the most important aspect of these practices. Chogyam Trungpa talked alot about "Spiritual Shopping"...especially with Westerners. I do have to say for myself, I did study and compare alot of religions. In fact, one of my top favorite books is by Manly P. Hall, "Secret Teachings of All Ages". You guys should put that in your Summer Reading!! As a Westerner, this is not an easy task to follow, because we are all trying to find our place - and in a sense, we are shopping, but not in a bad way. Most people whether they be Tibetan, Indian, Nepali, Chinese or whatever, are born into their culture. We Westerner's are very different and we do the best we can. Anyway, I ended up with the Jonangpa lineage for several years, then with my husband, who is 150% Hindu. It's been an interesting journey for me, but one thing is for certain and one of my discoveries is that I am not Tibetan, I am not a monk and I refuse to shave my head and wear a burgundy robe. Oh yea, I am very familiar with the Kagyu and Nygma lineages. There was a period where these two had merged together, did you know that?? The Nygma lineage was really near and dear to me. They have a interesting practice that I am very connected with. They taught that everything in the universe in within you...all the answers, period. So, the practice was to remain still and it was an intense internal practice. They gave very little teachings, just a simple initiation and that was it. It was very profound. There was a Rinpoche that came here to the states that taught this method, but he died several years ago. Anyway, well this is all interesting. | |
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| Cyndi - 2007-07-08 6:00 PM
The Nygma lineage was really near and dear to me. They have a interesting practice that I am very connected with. They taught that everything in the universe in within you...all the answers, period. So, the practice was to remain still and it was an intense internal practice.
Yes, it is like seeing the universe in a grain of sand. I use the universe mudra during prayers.
These are profound teachings. Thanks so much for sharing.
Tashi Delek to you too, and I hope you've had a wonderful weekend.
Kaos
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Oregon | Ok, so... I attended the Yoga Sutras class this weekend with Chase Bossart. Thought I'd report in. I woke up this morning with the sing-song rhythm of the chant going through my head. The class was two days, Sat. and Sun. and the first hour of each class was chanting 1-29 of the first chapter. In Sanskrit. I've never done anything like that.
I really had no idea what I was getting into. He breaks it down in Sanskrit, word by word, giving the meanings or close proximations in English, and then puts it back together. I didn't really think this is how it would go. I guess I imagined talking about the meaning of an English translation, and how it applies to our daily lives and practice.
But, no matter. I think I understand why we actually translate it ourselves--a better/deeper understanding of the true meaning. So in many ways, this type of class is more than I was looking for. Not complaining, there are definite parallels to personal experiences that I'm going through now. It's pretty clear, this is what I need to be looking at, at this moment in life.
As for the sources used: he prefers the translation of T. K. V. Desikachar for the Sutras, and recommends The Heart of Yoga. Though I picked it up on the second day, he doesn't really refer to it in class, because we take a line apart and put it back together ourselves. And we use a Sanskrit version of the Yoga Sutras that Desikachar also had a hand in notating. | |
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| Hi Dre,
So overall, would you say that it was a positive experience?
Jonathon
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Oh, yes, Jonathon. I'm joining in the middle of the sessions, but it was easy enough to follow along. The discussions on the sections and how the Yoga Sutras are structured gives me a much clearer idea of how interpret where I might be in the process. The translation I first read is by Chip Hartranft on Shambhala Publications. I still prefer it to the wordiness of the Desikachar version. But exploring a fully fleshed out meaning, or how root words could also be interpreted is illuminating to say the least.
I will most likely attend the next two weekend sessions in Sept. and Oct. | |
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| DJDre,
I was on vacation when this thread posted originally. So I missed it. I wanted to share my experience with a study group.
We started a Bhagavad Gita study group in the spring. We divided the book into 3 sections and met for 3 consecutive Sunday nights for an hour and a half. I led the group with an opening question. This was my first time studying the Gita, so I was only a leader in the sense of direction.
I was really lucky because my local studio owner was really open to the idea. We did not charge people. And we used studio space. If she had not been willing I would have tried to do something through the local library. We will be doing the same thing again in the fall with the sutras.
In the classical yoga tradition - you wouldn't learn the Gita or the Sutras in this manner. You would study one on one with your guru. Some people would disagree with the study group method - particularly for studying the sutras. However I think this is one of those east meets west issues. An unless you can find someone locally to teach you - this might be your only option. And I know that I was able to appreciate the Gita more than if I had studied it independently.
Vicki
P.S. I'm glad you found Chase - I'm doing my teacher training with him.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Jonnie said: Tell us how you feel it compliments your Bikram practise...
I attended the second weekend (Sat./Sun., 4 hours each day) session on the Yoga Sutras. One of the things I've felt is how distilled the Sutras are, it's something Chase mentioned today. It's also one of the things I like about the Bikram dialogue--it's specifically and minimally articulated.
What I like about the series is that I can know a posture, really know it. For me, that's a big part how I found the stillness in my body, which I think lead to me being able to make the transition necessary to be able to find stillness in my mind. When I practice other styles the repetition, either in postures or set up isn't anything close (to Bikrams).
Those styles and teachers certainly have merit, and have offered unique perspectives. But I'm not sure I would have recognized misperception unless I could have made some things just... stop. And I think that was helped by having the same thing over and over again as a foundation.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying the class. It's really the right thing for me at this time in life, so many things seem to be coming together. Or at least making sense. If it's some restraint, or being able to draw a boundary. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Reporting in again. I did my third weekend class on the Sutras with Chase. It's been a great experience. So many things in my personal life have parallels to the very things the Sutras are addressing. The class discussions have been great. My chanting has been coming along too.
It's interesting. In my personal practice I've got a little prayer rug and a pillow. And at the last session I bought a CD of the Sutras being chanted by Kausthub Desikachar. But there was some resistance to actually sitting down and doing it. It's an odd sensation, because I think this is something I'm being lead to do.
Anyway, I got some positive reinforcement this weekend. Even the little practicing I did between sessions was noticeable. And the understanding of the text, from breaking it down in class is, happening, even while chanting. Pretty cool, really. | |
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