|
|
| Iyengar is no doubt an impressive figure in yoga...I've learned probably more from Iyengar's books than any other source. But what I will never understand is the worship of Iyengar that some yogis partake in. One successful instructor I know never changes the sequence of poses from Iyengar's sequences because she feels he has already come up with perfect sequences....It's like she thinks he got his info. straight from G-d himself. As talented and wise as Iyengar is, I don't agree with everything the man says or recommends. As a person who is focused on finding the safest postions for my students and myself, I seek information from multiple sources including myself. People study Iyengar's alignment principles and repeat them verbatim and just assume they must be correct....but are they? Iyengar started teaching yoga when he was just a teenager...and much of what he knows comes from himself and his own experiences, not memorizing someone else's words and just being a passive 'conduit'. I don't know what it is about yoga, but it seems to attract people who are all to ready to give up their independent mind only to replace it with some guru's ideas. Sometimes I wonder if I'm too independently minded to be a yogi, but I believe deep down that my students will benefit from the fact that I question and explore.
Edited by shalamOM 2007-03-24 12:00 AM
| |
| | |
| shalamOM - 2007-03-24 7:57 AM
But what I will never understand is the worship of Iyengar that some yogis partake in. One successful instructor I know never changes the sequence of poses from Iyengar's sequences because she feels he has already come up with perfect sequences....It's like she thinks he got his info. straight from G-d himself. As talented and wise as Iyengar is, I don't agree with everything the man says or recommends.
Hi Jessica,
This certainly doesn't reflect my experience of Iyengar Yoga at all.
Infact one of the things that I like about Mr. Iyengar and his system of practise is that there is no 'cult of personality' involved and that he actively encourages his students to think for themselves.
Which of his teachings specifically don't you agree with?
| |
| | |
   
Location: London, England | Hi there,
I have to agree with Shalom-I've had that impression off so many Iyengar teachers. And ytou are right-his rules of alignment are so wrong. This is not my opinion-it's fact.
Nick | |
| | |
| That does it Porucznik. You're off my Christmas card list  | |
| | |
Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Rats! There are exceptions And I also reckon that there's even more PKJ wannabes in the astanga tradition.
Nick | |
| | |
| Count yourself lucky that us Iyengi's are a peaceful bunch.
Looking at some of the responses to criticism on the Bikram thread, if you were talking about him they would have burned your house down
Jonathon | |
| | |
Location: London, England | jonnie - 2007-03-24 1:31 PM
Count yourself lucky that us Iyengi's are a peaceful bunch.
Looking at some of the responses to criticism on the Bikram thread, if you were talking about him they would have burned your house down
Jonathon
hi Jonathon,
is that so they'll have somewhere warm to practice?
Nick | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| jessica - which sequences does this teacher use? I have never been given specific sequences to teach - just the syllabus along with an understanding of sequencing that I am expected to know and implement on my own. Most sequences that my colleagues bring back from Pune are so atypical to the way we usually teach, we would be hard pressed to be able to explain or justify the sequencing on our own. And that is key to our teaching - if we do not understand the sequencing, we should not teach it.
BKS is adamant that we do NOT copy and emulate him and I am told that anyone who has had teaching from all 3 Iyengars that they are each so individual and different in how they teach that there is no "Iyengar style" at all. And I have certainly felt that from the various very high level Iyengar teachers I have studied with as well as all the local teachers. | |
| | |
| i have found in my practice that his alignment and modification principles are correct and functional for a variety of people with a variety of needs.
that said, i do not teach in an 'iyengar' way, but i do teach according to iyengar principles of alignment and technique. i find them most functional. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I certainly don't think that all Iyengar teachers rigidly follow sequences handed down from Pune. No doubt that some Iyengar students and teachers regard Iyengar as their guru -- that's why he is sometimes called "Guruji". The traditional relationship of guru and student has strong elements of respect, devotion, and submission. I've observed that to be a more personal thing, however, not a teaching practice. Nick -- Can you be more specific about Iyengar alignment principles that "are wrong" ? I'm not sure what you mean. ... bg | |
| | |
Location: London, England | hi BG,
I'd submit that the alignment that is often demonstrated in Iyengar yoga (and I think every form is prone to this), which states that it is the correct alignment for that posture, bears no resemblance to the principles of good alignment that are used to increase an athlete's sporting prowess, nor bears any resemblance to the principles of using exercise for its therapeutic value.
Perhaps if you choose a posture, put a pic on this post, and I'll see if I can illustrate what I mean with some practical pointers.
Nick | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
Location: canada | wow, all this talk of strict sequencing almost felt like i was lost in an ashtanga thread,  | |
| | |
| Dear ShalOM:
Namaste. There is NO doubt a truth in the statements you have made in the original post. And, it is fact that some IStyle students have added other elements and even deviated from or even left that style. However, as you yourself wrote, you have to understand that:
BKS has spent a life time effort in alignment and such. Moreover, he has demoed those poses in his own body and there is NO question that there is NO other comparison to be made as far the Poses are concerned. If there is : Show me. And, you can not. Now, I personally feel that a) it has something to do with dedication to asanas, with extreme effort, etc. b) and his interest in those exercises, and alignments etc.
So, those who are interested in the above elements shall take him as GOD.Why not? He is the best in those elements in their opinion. And, only then they will be able to reach that level of dedication.
Now, I agree with your statements that those who try to copy or go verbatim, shall loose their creativity. And, I have myself seen some of the world famous (in Asanas ONLY) teachers have LOST that creativity.
But, that is their choice. And, they are happy with that. And, they feel they are achieving the mind coordination etc. So, no one else can ask them to change.
However, you can make your point that doing such and such shall exclude other benefits etc. You can not change those who are devotees.
And, you shall find one surprising thing since you brought up this topic of questioning and enquiry: Those who claim to be enquiring and questioning, a very small percentage of them have reached anywhere. They spend most of the energy in questioning and not in practicing.
ETC. | |
| | |
| Sorry Shalom: I want to add more.
If you have seen Swami Sachidananda of Yogaville. His devotees worshipped him much more than what BKS devotees do. They lay flowers where he walked and they washed his feet, etc. And, why not? They actuallly feel GOD in him.
And, some feel the same in Idol of Shree GAnesha, and some in that of Vishnau, and some in their own father or mother.
Who are others to ask them to change?
But, others can give their opinion without criticising them directly. That is what I feel. | |
| | |
| all of my teachers have been very adamant about not taking anything they say to be true without trying it first ourselves.
and whereas it certainly is nice/vital to have guidance (whether it is from Iyengar lineage or otherwise) i attribute most of my progress in practice of yoga (asanas and otherwise) to my own dedication and experimentation.
...
while still being very devoted to my teachers.
i certainly don't advocate blind faith, but devotion is a large part of yoga, hm?
it is not a large leap in my mind to believe that the work of BKS Iyengar could have impacted someone's practice to the extent that they are, in fact, devoted to him. but i would also be interested to see what that person had to say about their personal practice.
| |
| | |
| I laughed so much while reading the few first posts I guess I'll be added on Johnnie's Christmas cards list... 'cause I agree with what he said; and with what Tourist exlained.
Iyengar alignment advice actually helps tremendously. One's practice takes a completely different colour and the way I understand it, it creates a strong base on which we may add any block (i.e., any style, tradition) with ease. It also helps with aches and pains: consistent wrong alignment creates aches and pains, when you get aligned, these aches disappear. It also helps you protect yourself against injuries.
Worshipping any teacher says something about the person who decides/wants to worship. You may meet people who worship Mr Iyengar, you may meet people who worship anybody with a robe, a beard ... long hair. What to do ?!
In the Iyengar training, I never felt that we were told to believe anything Iyengar says; on the contray the advice is to question every aspect and try it for ourselves, feel it for ourselves, understand for ourselves.
One advice we got during a yoga sadhana, a few months ago, from a teacher who is a direct student of Iyengar and has spent several years at he school in Pune: "If you do the pose for me, to please me, it is ego and it will stop you from any progress; do it from your heart". This advice he got from Mr Iyengar himself and he passed it onto us.
One thing remains important though: respect. Being respectful. That is it.
Thanks for the thread
| |
| | |
| Dear Cerise and similar ones:
I disagree with you. What you stated is true abot Posture. Can you say the same thing about other things such as Philosophy? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation.
I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have  | |
| | |
| tourist - 2007-03-25 11:30 AM
Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation.
I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's ) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have
Dear SisTourist: Now that it has come to that I must state it bluntly what I meant in the above:
It has two parts:
a) If one wants to learn asanas, alignment, developing one's own ways within the context of IY style of asanas, IY asana class is great.
b) If one wants to study Philosophy IY class is minimally useful.
If one wants to know this by experience, they have to attend my class on Philosophy, including all the
Senior Most teachers of IY style, and BKS himself included.
But, I still bow down to BKS as my teacher. | |
| | |
| And, if one wants to get an idea of what Shalom is trying to say:
Watch the Yoga Journal Conference on Light on Life videos.
And, if one wants to get an idea of what I am trying to say:
Watch any of the 16 DVDs on Yoga Sutras of mine.
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2007-03-25 6:32 PM tourist - 2007-03-25 11:30 AM Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation. I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's ) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have Dear SisTourist: Now that it has come to that I must state it bluntly what I meant in the above: It has two parts: a ) If one wants to learn asanas, alignment, developing one's own ways within the context of IY style of asanas, IY asana class is great. b ) If one wants to study Philosophy IY class is minimally useful. If one wants to know this by experience, they have to attend my class on Philosophy, including all the Senior Most teachers of IY style, and BKS himself included. But, I still bow down to BKS as my teacher. Hmmm.... you sound a lot like someone I did a workshop with... | |
| | |
| Dear BG:
The fact is that : I wrote exactly what the fact is according to my experience of 30 years. And, i am open to clarify, discuss, debate to the last point. However, saying, 'I sound likexxxx' does not help at all in the discussion.
If you disagree with a particular point, ask me. | |
| | |
| most asana classes are really not great for philosophy in general.
the classes that i've been taking recently have no depth--not even in asana. it's really just a babysitter to take you through the sequence, followed by a single 'inspirational quote' at the end of class--and OM and beginning and end of class. so, certainly not a place where i would learn philosophy.
now, most of the philosophy studies that i have done have been in classroom settings at universities or by my own study and contemplation of texts. very few people teach yoga philosophy--and so it is difficult to learn in this context. but, by having texts available to us, it gives another opportunity.
but the only way that philosophy can make sense--whether we get it from a book, dvd, cd, or in a classroom--is by contemplation and application. otherwise, it's just intellectual knowledge.
just as one can have good intellectual knowledge of poses, but no real understanding of it. | |
| | |
| Sorry for jumping in again without waiting much. I donot know whether dear ZB wrote in response to my postings above. But, since English is my second langauge, I thought I shall make my points clear 'second time'!!!
1. I myself learnt asanas directly from BKS himself for 6 hours a day for 5 months. So, there is no question in my mind who BKS and how he is. I know he is a great asana teacher and practitioner, and researcher, and inventor, and genius. I have no doubt about that.
2. Also, I am not stating that considering someone god or godly or authority is bad. I myself shall choose BKS over almost anyone else I know in the field of Asana. And, I shall be fanatic about that.
3. However, I am stating that what dear Shalom said is true. And, what Shalom said is not an imagination. Shalom did not dream of it. It is the experience. And, it is also my common experience that she is correct. I also gave one example of watching videos which are totally from IY style and they prove that point. What is the harm in accepting the fact?
4. Now, I stated that Philosophy is minimally taught in IY style classes. That is also a fact. Now, what is IY style. Read the definitions anywhere on that. What is Integral Yoga Style of Swami Sachidananda. Read definitions of that. What is Shivananda style. Read definitions of that. And, you shall get one part of the answer. There is no question that Iy style deals mostly with alignment, etc. and that is NOT philosophy.
5. Now, I disagree that Philosophy is not learnt in classes. And, it is learnt mainly by contemplation, etc. yes, practice and contemplation apply to any field to get experiential knowledge. That applies to Physics and Chemistry which are material sciences, as well. But, there is something called Philosophy and there is something called instruction related to that. Now, since some people think one should not cite one's own example such as I did, let me give the following for you to ponder over:
- Study the life of Swami Vivekananda (I hope you agree he was a greatest and realized yogi), study thelife of Gautam Buddha if you are Buddhist oriented, study the life of Yogi Arabindo of Pondichery, of that of Swami Sachidananda (Integral Yoga style), and that of Swami Shivananda or Vishnudevananda (Shivanada Yoga style), etc. And, then make a pie chart (Ollie. Please help. Is that the correct chart in Math?), and compare asana, breathing, philosophy, worship, etc. instruction. And, you shall find that Asana is NOT always the major part of it.
- Thus, I feel that Shalom and myself made valid points. And, if someone feels bad due to that, they prove Shalom's point even stronger.
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2007-03-25 10:19 PM Dear BG: The fact is that : I wrote exactly what the fact is according to my experience of 30 years. And, i am open to clarify, discuss, debate to the last point. However, saying, 'I sound likexxxx' does not help at all in the discussion. If you disagree with a particular point, ask me. Yes, I was being a bit cryptic b/c I don't care to reveal the teacher in question. Let's just say that this person also knows the teachings of BKS well. I fully agree with your other comments -- BKS is a master of asana, unparalleled within my limited experience. On philosophy, I'm not especially fond of BKS's teaching. His commentary on the Sutras lacks the warmth, immediacy, and clarity of the commentaries of Desikachar and Satchidananda, for example. As ZB mentions elsewhere, philosophy is only useful in so far as it applies to real living (was John Dewey right?), and it is for that that I value the two commentaries just mentioned. Regarding the videos at YJ that you mentioned, I looked at them, but they are simply a famous old man entertaining his devoted followers. I don't think that they measure fairly the full scope of what he knows or has done during his lifetime. ... bg | |
| | |
| Dear Brother BG:
Thanks for the clarification. Actually, I had misunderstood you, but now that I understand you and you do not know what I misunderstood, I shall keep you in the bliss of ignorance. As for the videos, I mentioned them to support Shalom's original statements which many seemed to oppose. | |
| | |
| iyengar yoga instructors DO and SHOULD come up with their own sequences. there is nothing wrong with occassionally using a sequence of IYENGAR's that has inspired you, but, it is an immature teacher that would only use old iyengar sequences.
in fact, this goes against IYENGAR's teachings. it is a living, evolving tradition. some of what was once taught is no longer taught or is approached differently.
part of the brilliance of the system is sequencing, and an iyengar teacher should certainly be able to do that AND to teach and change depending on the students that come to them, NOT be stuck in a cookie-cutter formula. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| BKS is certainly a master of asana. He is incredible. However, check out the many chinese acrobats,shaolin monks,russian acrobats,Indian contortionists,olympic gymnasts.. Some shaolin monks can do what Iyengar does and run on a wall, then get speared without any ill effects. It is all to easy to get bogged down with how to look good in a posture. Buddha asked of his followers to be themselves and there are so many buddhist monks around the world.Surely, yoga is deeper than gymnastics and following a teachers instructions? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| vibes - interesting thread to resurrect. I am not sure if you have brought anything new to the conversation.
Iyengar yoga has nothing to do with gymnastics, though gymnasts may make use of it. Alignment principles are there to a) make the poses safe for the sadhaka and keep the body healthy, as well as, b) remove blockages and impediments to the flow of prana. This will facilitate and make safe the body and nervous system and enable the sadhaka to practice the so-called "higher" limbs of yoga safely and optimally. | |
| | |
| Iyengar's commentary on the Sutras of Patanjali is excellent. Whereas others may add and invent more of their own meaning, Iyengar seems to stay close to the original text of sutras. And they are not originally meant to be warm and cuddly and easily digestible.
I like very much Desikachar's "The Heart of Yoga" too, but compare for example Iyengar's and Desikachar's commentary to the sutra nr. 1.37 "vitaraga vishaiam va chittam". | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I'm very fond of Desikachar's commentary.
| |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 258
| There is often discussion about how BKS Iyengar is mastering and performing the asanas himself…There is also discussion about whether his precise alignment rules are right or wrong. And the same about the sequences he is proposing.
But Mr. Iyengar is not important only because of the above.
There are two other very important aspects in his method that are not that often mentioned:
a) His meditative approach to the yogasana practice.
i.e. the fact that he teaches that we should be practicing hatha yoga NOT just as gymnastics, but with full consciousness and awareness all over the body, from top of the head, until down to the little toes and from the outer skin to the deeper marrow of our bones.
And
b) The extremely important and useful idea of the use of props.
No matter how well Iyengar can practice and perform the asanas himself… it seems that he cared also about how common persons, elder ones, non-flexible ones, disabled ones, etc. etc, can also do these asanas and benefit from them !!
My above note was not to defend BKS Iyengar but myself (and any other Iyengar student who might feel the same). Because the term “worshiper” implies a blind, kind of religious, dedication to a person and to this person’s teachings and promises... (which was exactly what kept me, personally, away from hatha yoga for many “lost” years of my life.) I think that most Iyengar practitioners are not this kind of worshipers, but are just persons who have benefited by hatha yoga practiced in the Iyengar way.
As for the caring only for the physical body… Ancient Greeks were saying: “nous igyis en somati ygies”, meaning “there can only be a healthy mind in a healthy physical body".
| |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| What Iyengar alignment principles are right? and why? we should ask. Is whats right for one person different for antoher is another good question to ask? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You can't ask that question Vibes, it doesn't apply. Alignment of the human body is the same in every BODY - the Map, the Anatomy is the same. However, every body is different in the way that they have evolved, developed..whatever...this is where the props come into play and a teacher comes in handy,  | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 258
| >>>>>>>>What Iyengar alignment principles are right? and why? we should ask. Is whats right for one person different for antoher is another good question to ask?
Yes vibes, I totally agree that we should be asking these questions!
But these questions do not arise on a theoretical level.
They arise ON the mat, while practicing with consciousness.
And on the mat we find the answers.
The “right” answers, that may be different for each one of us, depending on the little differences each one of us has. But all these can be found on the mat if we practice with alert, self-observing consciousness.
| |
| | |
| I think that it is important to differentiate between following Iyengar and following Iyengar methodology. The first is trying to be some kind of cult member. The second is learning to use and using a valuable tool.
Iyengar has shared his personal insights with the world. Some of them are useful and some of them are not. Use the ones that are useful for you. Modify others to fit and ignore the rest. Same with Astanga, Bikram and all the others.
Iyengar has made mistakes and so will we. (Like teaching shoulderstand with the back of the neck on the mat for years.) The important thing is that we have a methodology that discovers both what is right and what is wrong; what is right and wrong at this point in time for our unique mind/body/spirit.
Following anyone (including yourself) does not allow for the flexibility neccesary for self discovery. To discover, you need an open mind and a free spirit.
| |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 258
| a rightly put and conclusive answer Jim, thanks.
By the way,
>>>>Iyengar has made mistakes and so will we. (Like teaching shoulderstand with the back of the neck on the mat for years)
Was it not Iyengar who “invented” the use of a prop under the shoulders in shoulderstand, so as to prevent the neck vertebrae damage ? I thought it was him, but could be that I had misunderstood my teacher speaking in English in class
| |
| | |
| Yes, it was Iyengar who realized that the commonly accepted way of doing shoulderstand was potentially harmful for people's necks. His mistake, which he later corrected, was teaching the pose for many years without some type of modification to relieve the stress on the back of people's necks.
My point was simply that nobody is infallible and the most important thing is awareness and an open mind so that you can recognize problems and fix them rather than blindly following an authority (in Iyengar's case Krishnamacharya).
We should not follow Iyengar, but rather follow his example. He took the yoga practice that he learned and further developed it over time based on his own personal experience as a practitioner and as a teacher.
Edited by jimg 2010-03-18 2:26 PM
| |
| | |
| This forum will be a nicer place if participants preach less, use forum as a place for sharing experiences, perhaps some self-reflection, and allow others to response by sharing their experience but in a non-judgmental way. Kindly reduce, or better, cut out the word "We should", this is not a school, there is no need for authoritative figures here. However, the administrator do have a responsibility to warn new comers of practices that may potentially be harmfull. e.g. warn person experience chest discomfort after yoga practice, to immediate stop practice and see a doctor instead. Namaste | |
| | |
| antaraayaah
Thank you for your (hopefully well meaning) input. Why do I feel as though you just told me the "I should" not use the phrase "we should"?
Namaste,
Jim
| |
| | |
| Jimg - yes you are totally right in reading my thoughts! I am not a science person, did they say "for any action there is an equal reaction"?, why/what you received from me must be that reaction, slightly different format.  Namaste | |
| | |
| Are you sure that is not hypocritical? Telling someone not to tell others what to do? Or are you cleverly illustrating your point?
| |
| | |
| Jimg - I am a sincere person, but you are free to form your opinion. However, I do hope (I did not say you must) you hear and observe the subtle messages from the universe that comes on an on-going basis. Namaste
Edited by antaraayaah 2010-03-20 12:09 AM
| |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 258
| come on…
it’s not necessarily authoritarian to say “we should”.
Some people may know more things about a subject, some may know less, some may be trained/experienced teachers, others may be just beginners, it’s not bad to give or to get advice.
Most of us here are against authoritarianism (at least…I presume/hope we are), but let’s not take it to the other end and not accept even the opinion of those who might know something better.
In other words… the “subtle messages from the universe” should(oh!  ) be: PEACE BROTHERS
| |
| | |
| Kristi - Jimg (repeatedly) said Iyengar made mistakes by teaching shoulderstand without support; shoulderstand was practiced without support for thousands of years, and still is practiced without support in many parts of the world. How it has become Iyengar's mistakes? just because Jimg said so? and "we should" agree? I as a reader do not learn or benefit from messages like this, fortunately I was not angry and knock my head against the wall. Namaste | |
| | |
| antaraayaah,
Shoulderstand without support can stretch the ligaments of the back of the neck causing significant damage. Pressure on the back of the neck can also rupture the discs between the vertebrae and compress the cervical spine. People have done many stupid or dangerous things in the past and still do, that does not make them a good idea. Just because hate, racism and war have historical precedent does not mean that they are good. I pointed out the shoulderstand thing to illustrate that famous yoga teachers, no matter how revered, are not infallible and are human and prone to mistakes just like the rest of us. If shoulderstand without support (or other modification) is not a mistake, then why did Iyengar feel the need to modify that pose? If you ask physical therapists what the most frequent yoga injuries that they treat are, they will almost always say neck injuries from unsupported (or unmodified) shoulderstand and headstand and knee injuries from forcing the knees into excessive rotation.
If I teach something that is unsafe and someone injures themself, yes, that is my mistake as a teacher, regardless of how old the tradition.
Nothing is true because I say it. Nothing is true because Iyengar said it. Nothing is true beacuse it is in an old book. Nothing is true because it is part of an old tradition. Nothing is true because it is the latest finding. Please don't believe this to be true. Beliefs are beliefs, not truth.
What happens if you start viewing beliefs as working hypotheses as long as they work and discarding them when they no longer work?
I am sharing ideas. If you don't like them, great. They may be helpful for someone else. They may also be worthless, but just because you don't agree doesn't mean that someone else won't find them useful.
Namaste,
jimg
Edited by jimg 2010-03-20 12:21 PM
| |
| | |
| Jimg - I understand the part of your post about safety, that is also the reason why Iyengar design the various props, do you use the props to teach your student? When you do, do you give credits to Iyengar? Back to our discussion, you use the "mistake of not using shoulderstand support earlier" as proof Iyengar is not infallible, and thus should not be blind following/worship, in the first place, have you met anybody worship Iyengar like a god? Next, if a Iyengar teacher who could not surpass Iyengar with a more thought through sequence, is using Iyengar's sequence equate to blind following/worship with no independent mind? I get the feeling you felt the world of yoga is filled with dirt & dark clouds, and your insights bring lights, tell me if I am wrong. Namaste | |
| | |
| The world of yoga is filled with a lot of misinformation and superstition. Questioning minds are always welcome. If nobody ever questioned anything, we would still be living in caves wearing animal skins with the animals still in them. | |
| | |
| antaraayaah,
I did not start this thread and am not against Iyengar (who I've never met) in any way. He set an excellent example by questioning a lot of things and coming up with props and other inovations. He has also spread his understanding and experience of yoga and yoga technique worldwide, bringing yoga to millions.
Since you asked for examples: I have been to Iyengar classes that routinely started with praying to Patanjali, followed by a reading from Iyengar's works (exactly like reading from the Gospels in a Christian church) as if his words were somehow sacred. I have also known yoga teachers and practitioners who quote Iyengar verbatim as an answer to every question and have shrines with his picture in their homes. That sure seems like worship to me. It sure doesn't strike me as independent thought or understanding. (This is not only true of Iyengar students/teachers, but also most other schools as well.) Stand on the shoulders of giants, don't grovel at their feet. (Note that I did NOT say "we should")
Especially in our increasingly materialistic, stressful and non-physical world, I think that yoga is too valuable for too many people for it to sink into warring cults, each group defending their savior against the others. Yoga is still developing and I think it is important that we all share and work together to encourage this evolution, instead of impede it.
This is why I encourage people to follow Iyengar's excellent example of questioning and evolving instead of blindly following Iyengar dogma, or any person's dogma.
Namaste,
jimg | |
| | |
| when i describe my teaching style, i often say "alignment principles based on Iyengar." i am very much in love with alignment. i find that experimenting with iyengar's instructions in his books, what i was taught by iyengar teachers, and so on to be very valuable. but in the end, it is really "based on" and not "Iyengar alignment."
this is not to say that i am way cooler than others. this is not even to say that i am the most super awesome teacher ever. i admit, i am pretty awesome. but not super-amazing awesome. either pretty awesome, or somewhat amazing.
anyway, end of the tuna sandwich (or day if you prefer), i really like what iyengar does. and, he's got a nice smile. and he's an old man. and i love old men. it's weird, but i do. | |
| | |
| It is said our view of external world is a manifestation of our internal world. If we are fearful internally, our external world will be manifested with demons and evil spirits, the same objects are intepreted differently by another person. Do give a thought how it comes to you as the practices you mentioned are intepreted as "cults" or "superstition". Photo on the wall. Do you display photos of your love ones at home, looking at them brings a smile to your face ? If someone look upon Iyengar as their beloved teacher/parent/grandparent dear to their hearts, seeing his face brings forth love, beautify and motivation, isn't this a good pratice and not a superstition? Chanting helps to rest my monkey brain so to focus / concentrate on the present task. My chants has been a verse from the yoga sutra that speaks out on the day. The chants you referred to may have the same calming/centering effect on the practitioners, but it is annoying to you, hence a "cult" practice? When you keep telling people to have an opened mind, yours are closed towards these practices that are useful to others. You need not participate, but you do not need to have such adverse reactions towards these practices which cuases burning fire in you. "Protecting yoga" is a unhelpful thought, let go of it and be free. I hope you see what I mean. Namaste
Edited by antaraayaah 2010-03-22 6:37 AM
| |
| | |
| antaraayaah,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I define superstition as belief resulting from ignorance (flat earth or astrology), belief in magic, and beliefs based on a false conception of causation. For example, if I chant OM (or whatever) and I feel calmer, is it because OM is a magic word or because a short inhale followed by a long exhale relaxes the mind and the body? I think that that is a very valid question, regardless of the answer.
I define misinformation as facts that are objectively false or information that is falsely presented or misleading. A good example is the often repeated "Yoga is 5000 years old". The "evidence" for this is a seal found in the 1920's with a picture of a man sitting cross legged that was found in Harappa that was dated to be about 4,500 years old. Some people have supposed that this person was practicing yoga. Although this is remotely possible, it is highly unlikely as there is no further "evidence" of yoga for over a thousand years. Also, archeologists have found similar depictions of men sitting in this position from approximately the same time in southern France, northern Italy and Scythia and nobody assumes that they were practicing yoga. In fact, this cross legged posture was how tribal chieftains sat (and often still do in many cultures) when people came to see them.
A photo or picture in a special place of any authority figure, whether the President, the Pope, Krishna, Jesus, Mary or whatever is worship. I was not criticizing, just pointing out a fact. (I saw an interesting thing in Italy. A restaurant had a picture of Mary and a crucifix side by side and a photo of a soccer player above them.)
When I see a class where the teacher was brought up in the Lutheran tradition and then runs a yoga class that exactly mirrors a Lutheran church service, I can only conclude that this is certainly worship to that person. And yes, it is annoying to me to attend and pay for a yoga class and then get someone's personal worship service. I don't consider this a cult although it may be for that teacher.
I do not feel that I am protecting yoga. Protecting yoga would mean that there is something that exists that I wish to keep the same. I want to encourage yoga practitioners to experiment and innovate, learn new things, remove the myths, further refine the practice, differentiate between tradition and truth. Why do I want to do this? If we all learn new truths and share them, we all benefit. I take a very scientific approach to yoga and I feel that we have a long way to go in yoga as well as scientific discovery. To me, for example, Patanjali is a pioneer, not a savior; a starting point not an ending point. This is my point of view. Others have different points of view. The free and open sharing of contrasting points of view is a healthy thing and has historically led to more peace, prosperity and innovation.
There are many people who present the more orthodox view of yoga (which is a lot newer than most people think) on this forum. I think that people benefit from seeing that there are also other points of view.
Why are you so defensive about what I write? I have never challenged you personally. (I think that you interpreted my saying in another thread that the lack of doubt is a hallmark of religious fanatics and the insane as somehow my attacking you. That was meant as an illustration of the dangers of not doubting, NOT a personal attack on you. If you felt as though I was attacking you personally or saying that you are a religious fanatic or insane, I apologize.) Maybe I have challenged some of your beliefs, but I consider that good and I appreciate your challenging my beliefs. Whenever we challenge our beliefs, we grow.
You may be interpreting my very direct, somewhat aggressive and sometimes pompous writing style to mean that I have a "burning fire" and adverse reactions to what other people do, think or believe. (My wife often tells me that I put everything too strongly. I live intensely and I enjoy life that way.) I don't agree with a lot of things for me personally, but that does not mean that I have any way of knowing if these things are not a crucial part of another's evolution. I nonetheless appreciate you encouraging me in self reflection. Thank you.
Namaste,
jimg | |
| | |
| i think that yoga has existed before asana took hold as being the major form, and that yoga is a part of the vedic culture. is the vedic culture at least 5-6000 yrs old?
is this a spin off?
for my own part, i do live in a magical world in a lot of ways. i believe in archetypes, therefore fairies exist. i have noted that those of us born on July 11, regardless of year, seem to have very similar personality traits, even though we are different ages, sexes, nationalities, etc. it's just plain weird. to me, that's kind of atrological.
but, i also exist with a lot of doubt. i mean, i question a lot of stuff, and i also don't question a lot of stuff. sometimes, i just want to do and be without doubting. i just want to do and be.
i don't have any pictures of anyone in my house. is that strange? we have them on the computer and we are also making a book for hawk so he can look at his grandparents often. we are living very simply. we really only have a bed and dresser right now. the table we bought broke--so we are waiting to fix it. we don't have tools. a friend is going to help.
that's pretty magical to me. friends. | |
| | |
| The oldest Vedas are commonly thought to be between 3000 and 3500 years old. The earliest uses of the word "Yoga" had to do with warriors literally yoking their war horses to war chariots and "piercing" the sun, continuing on to immortality if they fought and died bravely. It is still partly in this context that Arjuna is a warrior and there are a lot of war chariot metaphors in the Bhagavad Gita (usually dated between 500 BCE and 100 CE). Asana is in comparison pretty new. The mention of asana in the Yoga Sutras (commonly thought to be between 100 BCE and 500 CE) refers to sitting postures as preparation for meditation and not active poses and certainly not for the purpose of physical fitness per most experts on Vedic and Sanskrit history.
I don't think that you need to believe in magic per se to consider life (or love) to be magical.
Edited by jimg 2010-03-22 7:08 PM
| |
| | |
| zoebird - 2010-03-22 3:37 PM
but, i also exist with a lot of doubt. i mean, i question a lot of stuff, and i also don't question a lot of stuff. sometimes, i just want to do and be without doubting. i just want to do and be.
ZB,
I think that you make a good point here. No doubt often leads to rigidity, mindless repetition and a lack of innovation. Too much doubt can lead to cynicism or the inability to act. A healthy balance is probably best here as most everywhere else.
jimg | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Re: original post. You will go further through exploration and questioning while discovering than just doing like a robot. Even a donkey doesnt just repeat and repeat. Also your students will understand and benefit this way more as they are learning to explore which brings much mindfulness into yoga, which is often lacking in many classes. The body is an extension of the brain so it is of huge benefit to question and explore! | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Well vibes, I guess we have all been too busy watching the World Cup and the Tour de France and generally having a life to provide entertainment for you lately. I honestly don't see the need to resurrect a three year old post to get things stirred up. You might want to cut and paste into the Bikram forum and Ashtanga forum and see if you get any bites there. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Just didnt want it getting stagnant in yoga.com land, so you welcome to paste all you want. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| How about starting something new and not dredging up old stuff? | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Sorry, thought it was yoga.com here.Thought it was about thousands of years old yoga and on this page the old yoga elder Iyengar. My mistake. We should all tell yoga practitioners to get into celebrity keep fit exercises and not to dredge up old stuff like yoga asanas and meditation. You have inspired me- Im going to throw away my old smelly yoga mat now and instead get the latest flat screen tv and tell my elderly chinese neighbour to stop doing funny old daily chi kung exercises in the morning and watch the latest tv shows with me instead.The revolution starts now! | |
| | |
| Vibes:- From previous conversations I understand you no longer practice yoga asanas because you do not agree with the effectiveness of stretching and some methods used by Iyengar, Bikram and almost all teachers you have studied with. Perhaps the Chinese methods which focus on slow movements with full awareness will appeal to you? How about join your neighbours in their daily Chi Kung / Tai Chi practice, explore for some time, and share with us your findings? Namaste | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| you must have misunderstood. | |
| | |
| it is the only explanation | |
| |
|
Iyengar worshippers