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| About a year ago I had a conversation with my neighbor about how some people think Christianity and yoga conflict, and how some teachers in churches can't call it yoga, etc. I told her that yoga does not have a deity and it's only about doing good and being good, and therefore does not confict with Christianity. Enter Gita! As I'm reading it, I am thinking that Krishna is the deity linked to yoga. Lord Krishna is telling Arjuna that he created the universe, and that he is "everything". How can the Christian God, and Krishna both have created the universe? It can't be that they are the same deity with different names due to culture because with one you go to Heaven or Hell, and with one you are reborn, among several other differences. So, they must be different entities. Not to mention, as Dale points out, the Bible states there is only one God, and no offense, but I agree with him that if you are a Christian, then believing in other gods is incompatible.
Then, someone told me the whole (Gita) story is allegorical and not even Hindu's believe in Krishna? So, I looked it up and, nope, Krishna's coming up as a diety.
Well, am I confused now, or was I confused then? Thoughts? | |
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Location: Upstate NY | First you must realize that you are speaking about the same "god". Krishna is a manifestation or form of "god".
Om Shanti,
Ravi | |
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| That's the crux of my question-I am asking if other people believe Krishna is God. If he's the same God as the Christian God. By your answer, I assume the answer is yes.
And further, tho Christians believe there is only one path to God, through Jesus, Hindus believe Krishna takes different froms and can be the Christian God, Buddist, Allah, etc. Is that correct?
I was told that that there was no diety in yoga, and I was also told the Gita is allegorical. I am finding, as I read this stuff myself, that's not true. So, now, I'm trying to cut through the "opinions" for lack of a better word, and get the foundation of the truth regarding God and yoga, in the origional, not western view. After I do that, I can learn nuances and opinions, and points of view.
No matter what, I'm not dropping yoga or writing a book about the evils of yoga just b/c there IS a different god associated with it. ;) | |
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| You laid out quite a challenge for yourself Kym. In my several decades on earth with exposure to being a Quaker during my youth, through a run at Catholicism, a stay in Allah territory, to my yoga studies, I've surrendered trying to combat others' religious opinions or defend my own. As I told a satellite TV salesman at the door last night when he asked how many TVs I had, "You don't need to know that." My beliefs are mine based on my studies and as much rational thought as I can muster. Christians are correct: to them, Jesus is the answer. I f Jesus apperaed before me and told me that, I'd be on the bandwagon and become a fire and brimstone evangilist. If Krishna takes the wheel of my Mustang this morning and drives me to work--poof! I'm Hindu. I like your approach to discover the root of the ideas that are the foundation for the lives of many. Keep us posted will ya? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Bruce, I think its time for you to go to India, 
Kym, someone once gave me some information that I found very valuable later on after I figured it out of course. But, I once had sooo many questions about things, life and death. I did intense studies on selective religions, some of which I dare not even bothered with. The answer kept coming back the same. However, the information that was handed to me was this. I was told once that when I figured out and completely understood exactly what God was, that all my questions to the universe would be answered. Obviously that is a work in progress and has taken many years to recover and I say recover, because the answer has always been with me and at my fingertips. However, when you start comparing religions and dieties, don't try to combine them together, it will just confuse the hell out of you. Try to stick with one at a time. Understand that one completely, then study another. Then try to forget all if not most of it and apply the principals to your life and circumstances. Then notice that God is everywhere, in everything and in every person. God is the essence of every religion, every diety and then when you see that, take it further and realize that there is no God afterall, you are God - you are Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Laxmi, Durga, Christ and others. It's just your perception and practice is way off base due to the ignorance and confusion...which is the only reason we exist in the first place, to rediscover and find that within ourselves.
Now, don't get me wrong here....there are many ways of explaining this. There are Swami's out there that have better explanations than I. I just gave you my short and sweet to the point blunt version of my experience. See my signature line.... I'll post it again here so it won't be forgotten...Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards
The Vedic temple that I attend have no dieties whatsoever. They worship Fire. I like this, because its very simple and very similar to the Native Americans worship of nature.
Edited by Cyndi 2007-01-04 9:05 AM
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| Hmm... the gita's an interesting book, isn't it?
Just to throw something else into the fire, what's taught as modern christian thought has changed a bit over the years, and you'll get different interpretations from different parts of the world. Having read the Bible myself, I find that it's easy to make a number of different cases for various things. Some of these interpretations actually fit well into the Hindu world view, some (such as the more mainstream, fundamental interpretation) do not.
As far as Krisna himself, I'm reminded of the holy trinity in Catholisicsm. God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. So when we're talking about Krisna being God, we're really talking more God as Krisna, rather than Krisna as God, the all encompassing.
I also agree with Bruce, try some things out, read a lot, make up your own darned mind, and tell the satelite salesmen it's none of their darned business what you believe.
EDIT: One other thing to throw onto the fire. Siva is also consider the diety or god of yoga.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-01-04 9:18 AM
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| The whole concept of creations defining the creator is ridiculous
If our belief in God is a true one, then God being God is simply to great to be held down by one culture's or individual's dogma
Humans have conflicting opinions
God does not
So when you have two or more stories about what God is, you can rest assured that all of the stories are a little right and a little wrong
What is the truth?
Well, I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself in your subjective relationship with your impression of God.
Cultural Gods and Dogmatic Gods are simply put false gods, but by stating what I've stated have I created some 'new dogma'?
Lettuce spray.
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| I am enjoying these thoughtful replies. Thank you.  | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Om Namah Sivaya
Kym,
I will feabily attempt to let you know what my beliefs are and why.
I was raised in a strict baptist family who faith had strengthened deeply after the death of my aunt in 1974 by a drunk driver. It was the faith that helped my grandparents and my fahter through it all as my family is very close. My grandfather was deeply involved with his church as a deacon and so forth. So much of my life growing up their belief system was pounded into my head.
Being the typical small town kid with nothing to do and completly lost spiritually as I could not fathom the whole hell thing that was preached over and over in every sermon I turned to all of the rotton things that society today has to offer. Sex, Drugs and Rock-n-Roll some more so than the others. 
In 2000 I left my job as a project manager for a major telecommunicatins contracting company to move to the NYC working for another company but for alot more $$$$$$$. Of course! 
My girlfriend at the time Michelle also moved back to NYC herself to start back at her old company AON which was located in the world trade center. Life was good for a couple months but each time i would go visit her during lunch or after work I would find myself very uncomfortable because I was only making $80,000 per year and these guys around her all day were making $400,00-$600,00 per year. Well my ego finally got the best of me as I felt inferior to all of the guys. We broke up and it was a nasty break up many many things were said that should have never been said.
A year and some months later I am driving down the highway in Hartford, CT listening to Howard Stern and I first hear of the towers were hit. I immediatly thought of Michelle, called our friend in NYC to see if they had heard anything........ sometime later after the confusion and dust had settled Michelle was pronounced as one of the victims to the attack. I was crushed! Blamed myself for her being there, blamed myself for never aplogizing......... I went into a severe depression.
Knowing my grandfather was somewhat (or so I thought) of an authority of the bible I asked him one day this question. "If I am born a buddhist or a muslim I am a good person and do good things my whole life, yet never have heard the word of Jesus what happens to me?" " That's an easy one" my grandfather replies " you go to hell because you did not take the lord Jesus Christ into your heart as your saviour."
This completely blew me away........... this cannot be right I told myslef.... everything i read about Jesus and his compassion?....... my friend the Buddhist at work?........ my Muslim friends? were all going to hell?
I am completely grateful for the ignorance of my grandfather as it made me dive deeper into my own yoga practice and to research on a deeper level of what "god" was to me.
Through this I have studied and lived at the Sivananda Ashram where I really was able to understand the true teachings of non-duality. The first day walking into the temple I noticed at the altar pictures of Jesus, Buddha and many of the other great spiritual masters. I had inquired as to why were these pictures here and not more of Siva or Krishna..... which came the reply that all of these "people" were all the same. They are of one consciousness that of what we all are comprised of, it is just that we are all just packaged a little differently.
Through the years of much study and meditation I have found that these beliefs to be truth. That I am not an individual but all is one. And upon picking up the bible and re-reading many of Jesus's teachings I can also interpret the same.
All of the Hindu avatars are a representaion of one thing "god" whether it Shiva, Rama or Krishna. In fact that is what you are Kym, a representation of "god" in all of the beauty and essence of the divine.
Break down to the fundamentals of every major religion and you will basically find the same things.............
Sorry about going of on a long story about nothing and probably confusing the heck out of you but what I guess the point I was trying to convey is that this journey is yours and try and learn and study as much as you can. Preconcieved ideas will only hold you back.
"We are not human beings on a spiritual journey but spiritual beings on a human journey"
- Buddha
Om Shanti,
Ravi
Edited by Ravi 2007-01-04 10:03 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| Ravi - that is an amazing story. Thank you!
Kym - aside from all these wonderful replies, only one thing (which has been stated here already in other ways) has helped me make sense of this question. God is NOT an entity. Humans put faces to God because, as someone said, we are not good at understanding anything so vast and incomprehensible. God is not a person with a face or even anything like any of the entities you have seen on science fiction shows, although I do believe Star Trek and others have made good honest attempts at trying to portray omnipotent beings
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is. | |
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| tourist - 2007-01-04 10:25 AM
Ravi - that is an amazing story. Thank you!
Kym - aside from all these wonderful replies, only one thing (which has been stated here already in other ways ) has helped me make sense of this question. God is NOT an entity. Humans put faces to God because, as someone said, we are not good at understanding anything so vast and incomprehensible. God is not a person with a face or even anything like any of the entities you have seen on science fiction shows, although I do believe Star Trek and others have made good honest attempts at trying to portray omnipotent beings
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is.
or like my philosophy professor in college used to say
We don't know 
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| Ravi, I appreciate you sharing such a personal story. I'm sorry for the loss of Michelle. The pain that resulted from 9/11 is staggering.
I gotta say, the "we don't know" is a great answer!
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| For me, I ran away from "God" as I grew up to understand Him right around 1999-2000. In that time, my godmother died, my favorite aunt, my favorite uncle, and my brother got cancer. I was pissed and it was all God's fault.
Fast forward to 2005, I'm now in a 12-step program of recovery- step 2 says- "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" Step 3 says "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God"
Now, like yoga, 12-step isn't about religion, it's about faith and spirituality. One of the exercises for step 3 is to define "God" as I understand him... not you, not the preacher, priest, swami, etc... but how "I" understand him. This took a lot of work from someone who had zero spiritual life. At first, my "power greater than me" was the power of my group, the power of the ocean, the power of nature. Eventually, I defined my God... two things were crucial in this discovery process.
1. I looked up the definition of faith- it's defined as "belief without knowing" I didn't have to know to believe.. that was HUGE for me.
2. I was in a meeting where a man said "if I can define God, put a picture to God, then He's not vast enough to keep me sober. I know then that I have to redefine my higher power"
Today, my God doesn't have a face. It's a force- the force of nature, the stars, the ocean, the beating heart of a creature- what keeps this universe doing what it does. I don't align myself with any particular religion- it puts a box around my God that I am not comfortable with- however, I can sit comfortably in a church, in a temple, with people of another faith, or completely by myself and feel the presence of my higher power.
Good luck on your journey! Don't be afraid if it lasts a lifetime- it's not the destination, but the journey that's important. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2007-01-04 10:25 AM
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is.
Well, I don't know about friends, I consider the Vedic Temple to be much more than a casual acquaintance. Any 'true' Hindu priest will tell you that Dieties are only used as tools and guidance, not to be intrepreted literally so to speak like the Christians do. Historically, the Veda's were given orally. Below is a brief history about the Vedas.
Vedas were revealed at the beginning of creation to meditating seers; Rishis, who were in a superconscious state of mind. Yogis, being virtuous and pure, have already experienced the presence of God in their hearts and minds. These Yogis were able to perceive the Vedas. Vedas are Apauruseya which means one that is not made by humans. No one has ever claimed authorship of the Vedas unlike other scriptures. The Vedas are the oldest books of civilizations Vedas were divinely revealed to meditating pure and virtuous seers, or Rishis.
The Vedas were passed, by oral transmission, from one generation to the next. Sages and scholars memorized and recited the Vedas in various forms. Each form of recitation was designed to keep the correctness of each Mantra, hymn, so exactness could be achieved on reproduction. The oral transmission from one generation to the next continued unabated; therefore, these Vedas are called “Strutis,” as well. Vedas were propagated through hearing, remembering, and orally reciting, so the Vedas carry the title of Strutis”. Only Vaidic hymns are called Mantras, and the hymns of other scriptures are called Slokas. Mantra is that verse whose meaning is to be analyzed repeatedly in the mind; whereas, one realizes the deep seated three dimensional meanings including the abstract, spiritual, and metaphysical. “In short, Mantra is to be thought over and over, again and again”. Mantra is pronounced as “M-an-tr”. Recite ‘Om’ prior to any Mantra, this is the basic rule. The purpose is to invoke blessings of God in realization of meanings of Mantra.
Initially, the Vedas were transmitted orally. Therefore, the Vedas are called Strutis, meaning that which is heard. The Samhita nomenclature was given when the Strutis were written in book format. The Samhitas could be destroyed by flood, or by fire, or by animals, and, also, by humans, so by oral recitation and memorization, the sages and scholars managed to keep the Vedas alive. When the Vedas were put in written form the Vedas became Samhitas, but only Samhitas are Vedas.
Edited by Cyndi 2007-01-04 12:25 PM
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| for me, all of the various names and images of God are simply labels and explainations for the singular ineffable.
second to this, yoga is a spiritual discipline like prayer. you cannot separate yoga from the spirituality, but you can separate it from the religion. prayer belongs to any and every religious practice, and thus so also can yoga.
Edited by zoebird 2007-01-04 1:11 PM
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| I can tell that you all are answering from the heart, and that’s a beautiful thing. But, what I’m really trying to discern is not what we as individuals have discovered, but what the dogma is regarding yoga and deities, or God and yoga. When I read Gita, I understood that yoga is directly linked to Krishna, and that Krishna is a God, and that among other things, that God offers rebirth. And that Hindus practiced yoga as a way to reach Krishna. Krishna says many times that practicing yoga will lead you to realizing God. It never said (that I saw) any old god, but the god of rebirth, and the god that created the sages, etc.
I want to be able to say as an educated yoga teacher, “this is the dogma behind yoga regarding God”….then I can tell people what I believe if they are interested. I can say how I think yoga is spiritual and that I think any exercise is spiritual b/c taking care of the body is taking care of God’s body. I would also say that certainly someone who has no spirituality or religion can still enjoy the benefits of yoga. I enjoyed yoga before I was a Christian, or very spiritual. Again, that’s all my spin and experience. I also want to be able to answer and educate with the historical facts for those that want to know.
I personally am not a seeker-I already have strong beliefs. Reading Gita didn’t change that for me, it only made me realize that I misunderstood some things. I want to be able to answer with facts, such as Jewish people believe Christ was not God’s son in the flesh. They don’t believe in the New Testament. I mean, that’s a fact. Then, if someone wanted my opinion about the Jewish faith, or whether or not I thought they were going to hell, that would be a different answer. Do you see the distinction I’m trying to make?
Personally, yes, I think that we all have to find God ourselves. And I believe that journey comes straight from God. Right now, I practice my faith with an open heart with the information I have. I also can see that boiling down the religions leaves you with the same message. But, I’m not asking about that. I'm not trying to defend yoga or any religion.
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| Kym - 2007-01-04 9:53 AM
I am enjoying these thoughtful replies. Thank you.
Dear Kym: Since you have embarked upon a Herculian (a deity!) task, and you are open to opinions, let me tell you the following:
- if you keep on studying Shrimad Bhagavadgita (which you must study if you are a student of Yoga), then you will keep on coming across Shree Krishna.
- if you keep on studying Shiva Purana, Hathayoga Pradipika, Shiva Sanhita, etc., you shall keep on coming across Shree Shiva.
- If you study Ganesha Purana, Shiva Purana, Vishnu Purana, etc. you shall keep on coming across Shree Ganesha, Shree Shiva and Shree Vishnu.
- If you study the Patanjali's Yoga Sutras (which you must study if you are a yoga student), then you shall not find a single name of deity in the entire Classical Philosophical Text accepted by Shree Ganesha devotees, Shree Shiva Devotees, and Shree Vishnu Devotees.
- If you go to a yoga class of some kinds, you shall find Hot Room with no deity, or only exercise with no asanas, etc.
- However, none of them shall tell you that you must take up their deity, and give up Christ. Even Christ himself will do the same. However, if you go to a Christian Church, they shall ask you to give up your deity and take up Christ.
- No wonder there is a fundamental difference between Yoga and Christianity/Islam.
- But, the good thing is : While a Shree Ganesha devotee can practice Yoga and he/she can not become a Christian, he/she can stay without bothering a Christian. But, a Christian can stay Christian and still follow Yoga without following Shree Ganesha, he/she should not bother Non Christian.
- This is NOT called Tolerance, but that is the Truth! | |
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| Oiy Vey!
sigh....
Get rid of the dogma.
Dogma is for those uncapable of relating to God or any of the aims of good Yoga practices.
We don't know, so don't go regurtitating some unenlightened dogma from some con-artist who says that they do know.
Does that come across as too harsh?
Me-O-My.
If you could dogmatize the path to enlightenment then there'd be a lot more enlightenment going on, but you can't.
You have to live it, You have to experience it.
Kinda like how a writer writes about what they know.
So too should a good teacher teach about what they know.
Leave the God-relationship building up to the Almighty and the seeker. It is a private relationship to begin with.
Or
Do as you please, no matter to me.
to me Dogma is just so UNauthentic.
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| Kym,
what makes you think yoga has a dogma?
To be dogmatic is to hold a postion with what one believes to be sound reason. The very embodiment of yoga is thaat there must be growth and change and there is not a dogma or held position.
Yoga itself is not a religion. Religions are formed by man not by the Divine. Religions are mans effort to take the experience of another and craaft it in such a way that others might comprehend it with the rational mind.
Krishna is no more a deity than Hanuman. No more a deity than Shiva. No more a deity than you!
it would be foolish and arrogant of us as homosapiens to assume that which is divine could only take one form, only hold one thought, and offer only one path. It would likewise be foolish to believe that our processes of thought and our limitations of conceptualization are shared by the divine. It is the humanizing of the divine which cause the splintering of society through the tool referred to as religion.
If you'd like to do some reading on your own without my flavor find a copy of The Difference Between Religion and Yoga by The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's work). The discourses are very illuminating.
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| as an educated yoga teacher, i have not found any 'yoga dogma' aside from the construct that yoga must be practiced as a spiritual discipline, and not 'just' a form of exercise--to do so is to participate in 'bhoga' which is not yoga, and do something that is gymnastic, but not yoga.
that is the only 'dogmatic' thing that i've found. | |
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| Maybe we need to define some terms:
Fact-
1) something that actually exists; reality; truth
2) something known to exist or to have happened
3) a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
Dogma-
1) a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2) a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church
3) prescribed doctrine
4) a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle
Fact != dogma
Yoga is the science of god because it attempts to deal in facts, not in dogma. One of the best definitions of yoga IS the search for reality, which is pretty much the first definition of fact. If you encounter something in your yoga that conflicts with the other facts, then you've either misunderstood, or there's an error. This includes all the various sutras associated with yoga. With dogma, if you misunderstood, you're in the wrong, no questions. Unfortunately, every dogma I've ever run across contradicts itself at some point because it's not based on facts, but rather on ideas, and things that have been repeated again and again.
Interesting discussion BTW, really enjoying everbody's input. Hopefully we can continue to keep it fairly civil. | |
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Location: Upstate NY | I have seen the direction of this discussion many times here before and for some reason someone's nose always gets bent. Hopefully this time will be different
I too have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion so far, and as always it is a learning adventure and I'm enjoying the ride
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| Excellent posts so far...
The essence and beauty of Yoga IMO is that it has NO dogma. Dogmata by definition are "proclaimed as true without proof" but Yoga does not ask you to acept anything without proof. It is a philosophy of exploration in which you may find answers about YOUR reality. Your proof is your experience (not some sort of scientifc proof).
Anyway, coming back to Kym's original question, I would look at it like this. Ultimately the Christian God and the Hindu God(s) are all the same (as are the Muslim, Jewish, and so on...). God created humans with free will to decide their own level of belief. This led to an infinte variety of mindsets, and if God appeared to all those mindsets in one form s/he would miss the mark for the vast majority. So s/he presents in a variety of forms to meet the needs of the people s/he created, to provide a variety of gateways through which humans can access their reality.
The aim of all religions is the same (even though some people do not understand) - peace, love and unity throughout mankind. That's all that really matters.
With respect to Krishna, just bear in mind that at this point Yoga was based in a society that was forming the tenets of modern Hinduism. Yoga has since evolved to something different, something that can be accessed by anyone with a religious belief, no matter how different that belief is to the Hindu approach. There is no need to read the BG in studying Yoga (though you'll be missing an excellent work), or you may choose to read it as a story for its metaphorical value. Your heart is pure, you love your God, so do not worry, He is divine and knows that you are not straying no matter what some ignorant (in the true sense of the word) people may think about Yoga.
Hope that helps you make sense,
Scott
Edited by Arjuna Weeping 2007-01-04 6:15 PM
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I am reading Heat of Yoga (Hridaya Yoga) by Mark Whitwell. One of the topics he writes on (as he was taught by U.G. Krishnamurti) is that the very act of seeking God makes the assumption that God is not present- that the creation (us) cannot be separate from the Creator.
I took a workshop with him and it was sooooo enlightening. I've just started his book (as well as Neel's book )
I don't know, if it were me, that I would even discuss God and yoga in a class. Unless it was specifically brought up or if the class was specifically about spirituality. For me, though, religion and spirituality are two completely different things. One can exist without the other. I've seen many people who live their religion yet who aren't that spiritual and vice versa.... | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Personally, I like these definitions of Religion, Dharma and Hindu. Here's some interesting factoids to ponder. I obtained this information from the Vedic Temple website.
Religion defined in Vedic terms: Religion is an artificial and human created path which helps one to lead a noble life and bring one closer to God. In English, religion is the closest word that may be substituted for “Dharma”. For ordinary purposes the term Dharma may be interchangeable with religion. Humans designed “Religion”; whereas, Dharma represents natural principles, duties, and responsibilities.
Dharma defined in Vedic terms: Dharma is the individual’s natural, selfless duty, a responsibility towards self, parents, family, society, community, environment, and humanity.
There is no equivalent English translation for the Ancient Sanskrit word ‘Dharma’. Dharma is pronounced as Dh-r-m.
Dharma is divine in origin and deals with universal natural principles. The connotations are
spiritual and metaphysical. Mahabharata (12-31-7) described Dharma as follows:
“That conduct which sustains, protects, harmonizes all human beings including family, society,
nation, nature, and the cosmos”.
While visiting Jakarta, Indonesia, I saw many English sign-boards stating “Dharmo-Vanita”. I
asked a taxi driver the meaning, and the driver replied: “Dharma means to help others, and
Vanita means women. It is a sign-board of a government department that deals with helping
women, you may call it women’s welfare!” Furthermore I asked him: “What is your religion?” He
replied “Muslim”. According to this Indonesian Muslim taxi driver his religion is Muslim, but, to
him, Dharma means the duty to help others.
An individual who goes out of the way to help others is said to have undertaken Dharma.
Kanad Rishi in Vaisesika Darsan describes Dharma as follows:
“Dharma is that righteous conduct which elevates a human being to a higher level of interaction;
thereby, one attains selflessness and is free from selfishness.”
Dharma is derived from the Sanskrit word ‘Dharana,’ the root word, Dhr. ‘Dharana’, means ‘to
uphold,’ or to sustain. One who upholds these destined natural duties is said to have undertaken
Dharma. For example, the Dharma of the sun is to shine. The Dharma of the earth is to rotate,
and a learned person should guide others in the righteous direction.
The great lawgiver sage, Manu, described ten characteristics of Dharma as follows:
“The ten characteristics of a person who upholds Dharma are contentment, forgiveness,
maintenance of purity, thought, action, emotional, and sensual discipline, iratelessness,
truthfulness, abstinence from stealing, acquisition of knowledge, and wisdom.”
The tenth Sikh Guru Sri Govind Singh in Ugradanti Chhake Chhand Vani under the description of
“Chandi Ki Var” stated:
“Sakala jagata me khalsa pantha gaje, Jage dharam hindu sakal bhanda bhaje” Chhake Chanda 39:
“Let Khalsa Pantha be victorious all over the world to awaken Hindu Dharma, so all falsehood or
ignorance may be removed.”
Sikh Guru Sri Govind Singh further stated in Ugradani Saveya Chhake Chhanda (40):
“Sakala jaga me khalsa pantha gaje, Jage dharam Hinduka turk dunde bhaje”
Ugradanti Saveya Chhake Chhanda Chhaka 1 line 40.
The use of the word “Hinduka” in the above Chhand by Guru Sri Govind Singh reveals that the
word Hinduka was in vogue at that time.
In essence Dharma means “natural righteous, conducts, and duties that help one to rise
higher to become a better person.”
Then of course Hindu defined in Vedic terms:
Actually nobody knows the origin of the word “Hindu”. The word Hindu cannot be found in any
ancient Hindu scriptures, for Hindu is a later day derivative with many theories which are stated below:
One group of intellectuals is of the opinion that the word Hindu is derived from two different words; the first word is Himalaya, and the second word is Indu. Himalaya is the highest and largest mountainous range of the world, 5.5 miles high and 150,000 miles long that marks the northern most boundary of India. Indu means an ocean, and the ocean marks the southern most boundary of India. “Hi” from Himàlaya, and “ndu,” from Indu, have given birth to the new word “Hindu”. People living in the land that extends from the Himalayas to the Indian Ocean are called “Hindus”; thus the word Hindu originated indigenously.
Other scholars think the word “Hindu” originated from the word “Sindhu,” as the mis-pronounced word “Hindu,” instead of “Sindhu”. Sindhu is one of the largest rivers of ancient India flowing from the Himalayas to the ocean west of India. Traders, merchants, and travelers had to cross this river in order to go west beyond the boundaries of Bharat, Greater India. Hindu-Kusa, a range of Himalayan mountains, was the boundary of Bharat, Greater India, in ancient times (see map no.1). Travelers usually remember the greatest pleasures, or travelers remember the most difficult obstacles of their journey. The Hindu-Kusa mountain range was the greatest hurdle for the travelers going west to the valleys and cities of Persia, Greece, Middle East, Central Asia, or Europe from the pleasurable and prosperous Sindhu, or Indus valley. The travelers would address the people of the Hindu-Kusa range and the Sindhu-river according to their
own language as Hind, Inde, Inde, or Indus. This is how inhabitants of the Hindu-Kusa mountain range and the Sindhu River belt came to be known as Hindu. Similarly, the people of the Caucasus mountain range became known as Caucasians.
The word “Hindu” is found in the Arab Holy Book “LISAN AL ARAB,” which has been published since early 800 A.D.. The word “Hind” means beautiful woman, and, also, one hundred camels; The word “Hinduka” means person from India. Professor Al Batal, department of Arabic language, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A., translated the mentioned book. A presumption is that in ancient times Arabs probably used to buy beautiful Hindu woman for one hundred camels!
Tenth Sikh Guru Sri Govind Singh, in Dasam Granth, has also used the word “Hinduka”, pertaining to Hindus (see answer 1). During medieval times the word “Hinduka” was in vogue, and the word may have been a prototype of the modern word Hindoo ( Hindu ) as the British would say.
In ancient times the inhabitants of the Hindu-Kusa Mountains and beyond were called Hindus, and in turn the inhabitants gave birth to the Arabic word “Hinduka.” The land beyond the Hindu-Kusa Mountains was called Hindusthan which means land of Hindus. The populace out-side of Hindusthan popularly referred to the religion of the people of Hindusthan as Hindu.
Note: *Kusa means “sacred grass,” as spelled and written, according to “A Sanskrit English Dictionary” written by Sir Monier Monier-Williams. | |
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| oh yeah......for me, yoga is about my spirituality and connecting to something greater and deeper.
I keep throwing in the "for me" because I can only speak from my experience... in the past, I would have run from this conversation with flames shooting out of my shoes! that may be a testament to where yoga (and 12 step) have gotten me.. | |
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| Really excellent information!
The main things I'm learning can be summed up like this:
1) I did get yoga and dogma/religion too mixed up and intermingled after reading Gita
2) actually, it is all personal and no one needs to know how many TVs I have ;)
3) I don't need to really explain this to anyone b/c I barely understand it myself. Like someone said (wish I could see the posts!), I shouldn't be teaching something unless I understand it completely. That is how misinformation gets out there. For now, and who knows how long, I can say (if asked) that some people believe A and some people believe B, and some people believe C. I don't ever half to speak about facts or dogma b/c that's not what it's about.
Do I pass? 
Edited by Kym 2007-01-04 7:16 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Ancient yogic texts discuss God in terms of Hinduism because that was the prevailing belief of the yogis. When I am feeling very cheeky, I point out that at American baseball games, they say Christian prayers, because that is (so far) the prevailing belief of the participants and spectators. It doesn't mean that baseball is a "Christian" sport and you don't have to be Christian to play it or watch it. Ergo - you also don't have to be Hindu to practice yoga. HOWEVER, as has been pointed out several times here, yoga is essentially a spiritual quest or at least a tool to be used in a spiritual quest. But every single teacher and guru I have known has been very, very clear that the individual seeker's God or concept of God is his or her own. If you chose to belong to the congregation of the FSM (again, I am making light to make a point) that is up to you. Search the boards for FSM if you have too much time on your hands. Warning - it is silly in the extreme...
Cyndi - sorry. I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I was running out of time and had to get to work so I wasn't as clear or careful with my words as I should have been. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Tourist, don't worry, I didn't take it that way.
Hey Kym,
You can still teach yoga asanas. I look at this way. I have a yoga instructor. I'm not really that sure about where she is at as far as her 'vedic' knowledge is concerned. I do know that by communicating with her, she 'seems' to have a real good foundation about the yoga practice and how it should be preformed. I really don't care about the other. Honestly, I have my sources of guru's and can get the 'philosophy' end of it that way. In fact, my path has lead me in this direction anyhow. I go to learn these asana's from her. That is how my practice as evolved, at least for now. This may change, but for now this is perfect and exactly where I need to be. I don't need my instructor to guide me in the other areas where yoga is concerned, to me its a personal matter. I let my yoga practice take me where I need to go...in fact, it's more like, I allow my yoga practice to take me where I need to go. Not, letting my yoga teacher take me where I need to go. I don't want that and I don't need that. Frankly, my teacher is not interested in that either...although, she is very good, she's outstanding!!
Now, the reason I'm bringing this up is because 90% of Yoga here in the West is structured this way. I do prefer the philosophical and spiritual aspect to come from an enlightened person, in a more traditional way. I personally have found that for myself. I do believe that with Yoga here in the West, if a person is ready, they will advance towards that aspect and find their guru too. Most of us have done exactly that. So, you Kym, please do not give up teaching yoga just because you don't know everything. Teach what you know and what you have Mastered - teach it well, very well...nothing more and nothing less. If you do that, you will be of great service to yoga and the persons seeking the path towards enlightenment or the realization of God. You will be contributing to a great cause. | |
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| I've had one prolonged (meaning more than a fleeting glimpse), deeply mystical experience in my life. When I try to describe it, I always feel that I am falling flat, but I feel like giving it a go : )
I was lying on top of bed, during the day, I don't remember thinking about anything in particular. I was very in love with another human being at the time, someone I had not slept with but loved passionately, a wife love, a mother love, a child love, like all the love I have ever felt but all at once. As I remember it, I wasn't thinking about him particularly at the time, but I was always in a state : ). So there I was, on top of my bed, and then there I was, experiencing the most complete, intimate, secure, feeling, but I wasn't just feeling, I was being in communion with another being. It was a feeling of complete intimacy. It was one-on-one. I knew that what I was experiencing was what I am at my core. I had to guess, or extrapilate, that this must be what others are at their core too, but I felt it as an individual. It was completely personal. Of course it was god, at the time I didn't even question that. After awhile the feeling gently passed. It seemed like some time had gone by, but I wasn't aware of time as I was experiencing it. I wasn't aware of anything physical, my body, my room, my bed. It wasn't like I was just thinking either, I was completely engrossed, engaged, enveloped in the most intimate way.
When I get to the point of yeah, right, god, don't be stupid, when I die my consciousness will be over, everything reasonable tells me that, every physical act tells me that, and besides, no one knows anything about hereafter for sure, no matter what they are saying, a little part of me always remembers that experience, and the least I can say is, it's a mystery.
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| Cyndi, thanks for saying that.
Many of you have said extremely supportive things, directly to me, and it means a lot. | |
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| This and many other posts that are here sparked me to reply. I have not read everyone's post so forgive me if a similar answer is already on the list. I am going to go back and read the rest, but felt the urge to reply.
My mother goes to a Baptist church. She told me once as a kid that she thinks that if someone truly believes in their religion and believes they are doing right and that even though it is not the true religion God will understand. As long as someone is not downright worshiping Satan that is. I thought this was great, and then I grew up sort of and thought this is a fairy tale my mother told me so that I wouldn't stress about all the other people that are not Christians going to Hell. This made me doubt all religions and I lost faith. Later, I started researching religions and started realizing similarities. As many people have, started wondering if all religions were part of the same religion. I was scared at the thought because it meant that I might have someone to answer to, and did not go any farther because of things I have done that I am not proud of. Slowly over the years I have found myself coming across articles that supported this. My family is a mix of many religions, one of which is Native American. I found myself researching their beliefs and multi-god verses one God and seeing so many similarities with Christianity, even with the polytheist. I came across an article explaining how science and all religions are part of the same and actually back each other up if you look for it. I sent my mother the article (who over the years is starting to show no tolerance to other religions..to my dismay) and she said that she is going to send me articles that explain how the devil planned to confuse people by giving religions similarities and doubting which one is true. I am going to respond to that and say, what if the devil isn't trying to confuse you mother, what if he did, by making the DIFFERENCES in the original relgion and make us fight with each other over them? I mean more attention is starting to be paid over who is right over the years and cause bitterness than is being paid attention to the main root of most (actually almost all) religions..love each other. I don't understand how she can think that the different branches of Christianity are ok, and understand how they came to pass but not understand how different religions can be branches of the same religion. I hear about how this (insert religion here) is idol worshipping, but if (insert a different religion here that claims not to be seen as idol worshipping) and see that they also worship idols without realizing it. Money material possessions etc, but they excuse that form of idol worshipping away. My ex husband who is Muslim explained to me once that he was taught that Jesus is a prophet and was a Virgin birth, but they do not call Him Son of God that is blasphemy because they do not have a term that truly means immaculate conception to them it comes across as saying God had intercourse with Mary and impregnated her. To them (understandable so) that is blasphemy. This made me realize how some branches of religion can believe different things. Some beliefs are "lost in translation."
There is a passage (more than once) that says do not make your own religion. Well, do to people translating (there's that word again) the Bible differently (and other books of religion) there are different branches of religion, isn't this creating a religion? Even though it was not their intent, it is. Sometimes people made an honest mistake and sometimes people did it for political gain. I think God will forgive the people that were trying to follow his true teachings and took a wrong step with good intentions. However, there is also a passage that says religion (beliefs) are not a birthright. Meaning just because I am not Christian by birth doesn't mean if I see it is the way that I can not become Christian. So, I decided if I was to take my mother's attitude, that other religions were wrong, then why not take it one step farther and say other branches of Christianity are wrong? How do I know my mother taught me the proper branch and isn't condeming us to a life of hell with good intentions? I decided I wasn't going to look for who is right aand who is wrong, that I was going to see how we are all right but passed the truth along differently. Remember hearing in school if you tell person B a story by the time it gets to person Z it is a different story? So bottom line is I am trying to see all aspects of religions and how we all stemmed from the same place. Am I creating my own religion? Maybe, or maybe I am getting to the original. I'd rather take the teachings of all religions and learn to love the world and others by their practices and be a good person than to have hateful thoughts towards others for being different and killing people because they are different. I would rather take yoga and teachings of to help me find inner peace and to let go of my anger and not take it out on others than to pass yoga by and not use it to my benifit (the benifit of being a good person and letting go of ambition to gain money). I have stopped quibling about reincarnation and resurrection and started seeing how they might have stemmed from the same belief. I am not going to think that I am better than others because I am Christian. I am not going to hang out with my friends and think too bad they are going to hell because they are this religion, because they are good people, but picked wrong faith. I am going to let go of this need to be right, and practice what my religion teaches, to be a good person and to love my neighbors. If I do this I am in essence practicing all religions, just different rituals help me do it.
I'm supposed to pray on a regular bases. If I use yoga to relax clear my head of the influences around me and get rid of distractions and help me focus on prayer, I don't think God will be angry with me. Nor do I think the people that started the yoga practice are going to wish ill of me and tell me that they do not want me to practice yoga if they see that I am using it for good.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| osutuffy - 2007-02-04 7:18 AM
I'm supposed to pray on a regular bases. If I use yoga to relax clear my head of the influences around me and get rid of distractions and help me focus on prayer, I don't think God will be angry with me. Nor do I think the people that started the yoga practice are going to wish ill of me and tell me that they do not want me to practice yoga if they see that I am using it for good.
Tiffany - I think this sums up your message very well and it certainly echoes much of what I have been taught about yoga. Thanks for the contribution! | |
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was I wrong before, or now?