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| In Gopi Krishna's book, Kundalini - Evolutionary Energy In Man, he mentions psychic powers related to the kundalini. Is there any truth in this? More blood flow, better digestion, and so forth I can understand. | |
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| Im not familiar with that book, but from what i have read/heard the practice of kunalini can be VERY powerful.
I was speaking with my yoga instructor about kundalin and she said that there was a book written by a guy who practiced it, and ended up going nuts for like 11 years because of the massive amount of energy that was unlocked which he wasnt prepared for...
she quoted to me something like "THink about it like this; your 5 senses become more aware, and then you throw all that energy that becomes unlocked from the kundalini into it, it can be alot to deal with if you arent careful"
I think there is a book called "the serpent awakens" that talks all about someones experiences with kundalini practice, Iyengar mentions it in his book for the definition and explanation of the half lotus pose ( like page 114 i think... ).
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Expert Yogi
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| In India the mental health hospitals have separate areas for "kundalini cases." So I guess a lot of people there try this stuff on their own or with unqualified guidance as well. Asana and pranayama build up and strengthen the nervous and energy systems in the body to be able to withstand this force when it is ready to be awakened. | |
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| Interesting.  | |
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| >In India the mental health hospitals have separate areas for "kundalini cases."
Where did you learn that? I can’t find any reference on the Internet to that statement ( I didn't dig very deeply). Am curious because I know people who do Kundalini Yoga. If true, I would like to be able to get their take on that.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Eh, Jambo - I read it in a yoga mag. Probably YJ. But I have had that confirmed by people who have been there (to India). Practicing kundalini is absolutely safe if you have good guidance and a strong practice. Messing around on your own is a bit dicier. There is always, ALWAYS a tendency to want to do too much, too soon, whether it is yoga of whatever form, riding a bike or whatever. (You don't wanna hear about the time I discovered my chef-to-be daughter's fancy pasta machine...   ) It is all in the care and attention as well as knowledge and experience. Most days most of us are barely in control of our normal faculties - not remotely ready for magical powers  | |
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| here is a good reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini
........According to yogic terminology the force of Kundalini is supposed to be raised through meditative exercises and activated within the concept of a subtle body, a body of energy and finer substance. This process has been explained in detail by Motoyama (1981) and by Sharp (2005). Motoyama bases the bulk of the Kundalini raising practices listed in the book on the notable Swami Satyananda Saraswati, as well as on personal experience in helping people in various stages of Kundalini awakening. Sharp provides a kundalini meditation called The Great Invocation along with detailed guidance on controlling and managing the energy flow and subsequent manifestation.
Kundalini-experiences are often understood in terms of the Hindu chakra system, the understanding of psycho-spiritual energy centers along the spine (Scotton, 1996). According to Hindu tradition the Kundalini raises from the root-chakra up through the spinal channel, called sushumna, and it is believed to activate each chakra it goes through. Each chakra is said to contain special characteristics (Scotton, 1996). In raising Kundalini, spiritual powers (siddhis) are also believed to arise, but many spiritual traditions see these phenomena as obstacles on the path, and encourages their students not to get hung up with them (Kason, 2000). Although the opening of higher chakras are believed to mark advanced spiritual unfoldment, it is important not to measure spiritual growth solely by the opening of higher potentials. According to this view chakras might be under- or overdeveloped, and lower chakras are thought to be just as important as higher.
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.......Theorists within the schools of Humanistic psychology, Transpersonal psychology and Near-Death Studies describe a complex pattern of motor, sensory, affective and cognitive/hermeneutic symptoms called The Kundalini Syndrome. This psychosomatic arousal and excitation is believed to occur in connection with prolonged and intensive spiritual or contemplative practice (such as meditation or yoga) or as a result of intense life experiences or a close encounter with death (such as a near-death experience) (Greyson 1993, 2000; Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 1998; Kason, 2000). According to these fields of study the Kundalini-syndrome is of a different nature than a single Kundalini episode, such as a Kundalini-rising. The Kundalini syndrome is a process that might unfold over several months, or even years. If the accompanying symptoms unfold in an intense manner—that de-stabilizes the person—the process is usually interpreted as a Spiritual Emergency (Grof & Grof, 1989; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 199 .
Interdisciplinary dialogue within the mentioned schools of psychology (see references below) has now established some common criteria in order to describe this condition, of which the most prominent feature is a feeling of energy travelling along the spine, or progressing upwards in the body. Motor symptoms are said to include tremors, shaking, spontaneous or involuntary body-movements and changes in respiratory function. Sensory symptoms are said to include changes in body-temperature (feelings of heat or cold), a feeling of electricity in the body, headache and pressure inside of the head, tingling, vibrations and gastro-intestinal problems. Cognitive and affective symptoms are said to include psychological upheaval, stress, depression, depersonalization or derealization, intense mood-swings, altered states of consciousness (trance-like experiences), hallucinations (inner visions or acoustical phenomena), but also moments of bliss and deep peace (Sannella, 1976; Greyson, 1993 & 2000; Greenwell, 1995; Scotton, 1996; Kason, 2000). Within the mentioned academic traditions this symptomatology is often referred to as the Physio-Kundalini syndrome (Sannella, 1976, Greyson 1993; 2000) or Kundalini-experience/awakening (Scotton, 1996; Lukoff, Lu & Turner, 199. Transpersonal literature emphasizes that this list of symptoms is not meant to be used as a tool for self-diagnosis. Any unusual or marked physical or mental symptom needs to be investigated by a qualified medical doctor (Kason, 2000).
There is alot more, but thats just some excerpts.. | |
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| I've also heard it compared to a full strength acid trip that never ends. One of the interesting things about LSD is that it tends to remove some of the "blocks" from our sense. Generally our mind functions as a regulator to make sure that our sense don't overwelm it, and LSD completely removes these barriers, resulting in all sorts of interesting things happening. | |
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| ...not to mention that lsd actually never truly leaves your system, it binds to your spine, so if you have ever been a heavy lsd user, and pop your back, it could cause one of those lsd moleculse to be released, then as it reattaches thats how flashbacks can happen....well one way anyhow....
Imagine how unlucking kulandini would effect some (former) acid head?
I suppose peyote and mushrooms mus do about the same thing then...
actually they dont, lsd causes the neurons in your brain to misfire, which is what induces the trip, I think mushrooms and peyote are more of a chemical reaction in the body. | |
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| I’ll check out YJ (any idea what month and year?) and ask my Indian friends at work and teachers who have been to India if they know whether that statement is true or so much hooey. That K’ stuff is pretty scary if true. Having trouble squaring the hysteria from the people I see doing it. But who knows, maybe their internal twilight-zone looks perfectly normal from the outside.
That’s a great quote from Wikipedia:
"This psychosomatic arousal and excitation is believed to occur in connection with prolonged and intensive spiritual or contemplative practice (such as meditation or yoga) or as a result of intense life experiences or a close encounter with death (such as a near-death experience)"
Notice it says meditation or yoga. Looks like we all be in danger of Kundalini-rising.
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| to reach to tourists statement about kundalini yoga--sans instructor--being dicey, i have a story.
this is about a student who didn't practice 'kundalini yoga' (as most yoga will awaken kundalini in stages), but began to practice yoga on his own. He enjoyed it greatly--physically, mentally, etc--and he began to develop a great deal of awareness.
one day, he was practicing, and had an out-of-body experience. it scared him intensely. he didn't know how to get 'back into' his body, he didn't know how to make the experience stop, and when it did, he was so shaken, he's never done yoga again, and in his mind, he never will. he was not prepared--intellectually, spiritually--for the experience that he was preparing his body/mind for, and when his body/mind went for it, it scared him because he didn't have a teacher to say 'ok, this is what this is, how it's working, why it's happening, why one would or would not do it, how to do it, and how to stop doing it when you want to.' if he'd had this, it wouldn't have freaked him, he would have worked with it, and then he would have continued in his yoga practice.
but instead, scared him, and so he stopped and won't start again.
so, even 'regular' yoga can be dicy without a good teacher. | |
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| Yea I had an OBE before. | |
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| ZB- Thanks for the story. I think there are as many catalysts as experiences of people having OBEs. Whether that was a Yoga induced experience or an episodic psychosis that had nothing to do with Yoga would only be proved by examination of the particular person. Who knows what the person was doing the night before, their mental history, current stress levels or any of the other myriad causes for a psychotic break that appears to have been induced from their doing Yoga. It’s the anecdotal stories that make me wary of statements being made.
“so, even 'regular' yoga can be dicy without a good teacher.” Kind of made me laugh because I’m thinking that every Yoga DVD and book might now require a warning sticker on the front, “Don’t try this at home. Known to cause all kinds of weird sh!it if practiced without a teacher!” Can you imagine a student telling a typical teacher at a typical studio that they are having an OBE and can’t get back? If you think sexual issues freak out a teacher (see some current threads) just try laying that on a teacher.
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Expert Yogi
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| Jambo - I am glad this post got bumped. I don't really remember what year the YJ was but it was at least 2 years ago and in a multi - issue series on India and yoga today. Hope that helps. | |
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| Jambo - 2006-03-20 7:16 PM
Kind of made me laugh because I’m thinking that every Yoga DVD and book might now require a warning sticker on the front, “Don’t try this at home. Known to cause all kinds of weird sh!it if practiced without a teacher!”
Actually I'd like to see that sort of sticker applied to most forms of liberation. Strange sh!t happens. You can either freak out, or enjoy the show. The nice thing about the teacher is that they've already seen the elephant, and can calm down the student.
Can you imagine a student telling a typical teacher at a typical studio that they are having an OBE and can’t get back? If you think sexual issues freak out a teacher (see some current threads) just try laying that on a teacher.
You might be surprised. I think if you get a sincere teacher who's been at this for a while they might not blink. If you get somebody who just got out of teacher training, and has been at this for a year or two, they might call for the men with the white coats. | |
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| >GJ - Actually I'd like to see that sort of sticker applied to most forms of liberation.
Hey, don’t be giving the regulators any ideas, though they did seem to do a good job with the one they put on the gates of hell in Dante’s Devine Comedy, “Abandon hope, all ye who enter here”.
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| Jambo - 2006-03-21 7:26 AM
>GJ - Actually I'd like to see that sort of sticker applied to most forms of liberation.
Hey, don’t be giving the regulators any ideas, though they did seem to do a good job with the one they put on the gates of hell in Dante’s Devine Comedy, “Abandon hope, all ye who enter here”.
I'm sure it's already occured to somebody, probably many somebodies. For that matter there seems to be a lot of stigma in the media towards anybody trying to get somewhere. Usually they're shown to be flakes, or hypocrits, or mad men.
Actually, I'd like to write that over the door of a yoga ashram, hope's problematic at best. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I would like to think I would handle a student's OBE and keep them safe, but I don't see it happening in an Iyengar class, quite frankly. We're pretty grounded... | |
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hope's problematic at best.
To follow up with a billy bob thornton quite:
"Hope in one hand and crap in the other, see which one fills up first!" | |
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| Hope is also the last thing out of pandora's box.... I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine if it's a good or bad thing. | |
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| tourist - 2006-03-21 8:24 AM
I would like to think I would handle a student's OBE and keep them safe, but I don't see it happening in an Iyengar class...
In Iyengar, you have the advantage of using props when you first begin to practice OBEs. First wrap the loop of the strap firmly around your soul, then hold the other end of the strap with your left hand ... | |
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| Thanks T for the comment “I would like to think I would handle a student's OBE and keep them safe”.
Wonder how you would distinguish between OBEs, Religious Enlightenment, Rapture or Transcendence, Schizophrenia or Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Laura - LOL!!!
Jambo - my head is reeling with the possibilities! | |
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Location: Upstate NY | GreenJello - 2006-03-18 8:22 PM
I've also heard it compared to a full strength acid trip that never ends. One of the interesting things about LSD is that it tends to remove some of the "blocks" from our sense. Generally our mind functions as a regulator to make sure that our sense don't overwelm it, and LSD completely removes these barriers, resulting in all sorts of interesting things happening. I've read that the one can achieve the same awareness through LSD as with meditation the difference is that one is able to establish a solid understanding of identity through a consistant meditation practice, where this can also be achieved through LSD but one is not ready or mentally prepared for this.Resulting in a "bad trip" I think it was Ram Das..
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| Yeah, I've heard it's the difference between gaining understanding on step at a time, and flying by the top of the mountain on a jet. You get there quick, stay for a moment or two, and then fly back down. | |
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| so by these last 2 statements..
you think an acid trip would help a well practiced yogi in his search for enlightment?
"Now we are going to do eagle pose class"
"Woah im flying already...wheres my head?"
hrmm..nope...doesnt seem to fit...
Maybe a better question would be...
If said yogi took some lsd, would he have an easier time controlling his "trip" from having practiced meditation and such for (lets say) years prior? | |
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| Jambo:
I agree that individual examination, and knowledge of the student (by a teacher or person offering anecdotal evidence), is important. i do not think that OBEs, among other experiences, are necessarily psychotic breaks, though i agree that they can be, and one can only know through examination of the individual.
one of the problems of 'diagnosing' is first understanding what OBEs are. since there is a lot of conflicting language and descriptions of OBEs, lots of ways of describing how to develop the ability (with or without yoga), and lots of ways of having them "for real" it can be hard to determine if an individual, with whom one may be having a casual conversation, has had a 'for real' experience or a psychotic break or a flight of fancy (which i believe is most common). For individuals who do not study in this area--and why should they, specificly, when yoga studies are so vast?--it is extremely difficult.
most yoga teachers focus in a couple of areas of research when they become teachers. the first place to start, generally, is in asana--the bare bones of practice, alignment, sequencing, modifications. most will move into anatomy and physiology from there, and then energetic work (chakras). And then, they pick topics. Some go into pranayama and meditation; others go into philosophy of various sorts, or they pick a special topic of interest (for instance, i study a lot of mantra and sound healing right now--i don't teach it or use it in classes, but i do study it to continue my growth and perhaps introduce it in the future. i do chant Om in classes, as taught to me by my teacher directly). very few ever really get into the more strange and esoteric practices, and many do long before they're ready for them, intellectually or otherwise (which is often why those who do sometimes seem 'off' or 'strange' and it's not just because they study something of which many people are skeptical).
the average yoga teacher isn't necessarily prepared to handle psychotic breaks or OBEs. most aren't able to help students with basic social and emotional problems. many aren't able to help with basic injuries and physical problems. this is why it's important to find a good teacher, in general, one who is experienced in yoga themselves, and connected to teachers one way or another.
but, this is not to say that this is the only way. i honestly believe that the average, good-faith seeker will be able to manage whatever comes their way, and will be given the wisdom of yoga, etc, through the divine source within. ultimately, the teacher is the imminent presence of the divine--whether or not an external teacher is present. this is how some teachers can be excellent, and have never taken a yoga class or anything else. By their own spiritual seeking, they have come into wisdom and share that with others.
in my mind, though, any spiritual seeking can be 'dicey.' it is truly a knife's edge to walk. As jesus said, the way is narrow. i have this in my own spiritual experiences, but one of the most interesting is that time when i'm without a teacher. not just yoga, but anything spiritual. i may be with a teacher for a time, and then have an alone time, and then have another teacher or go back to the original teacher. to me, this is the vinyasa of the universe. But i recognize that when i don't have certain external 'touchstones' i'm at greater risk for falling off the knife's edge, and causing harm to myself and others. This doesn't keep me from practicing and learning and seeking during teacher-less times, but i am well aware that i could be going off the deep end in my own psychological, emotional, spiritual, or even physical traumas. and that having a teacher as a touchstone to bounce things off of can help me avoid these sorts of problems.
as to videos, etc, i answer this in a couple of ways. First, most videos are relatively basic and simple, and reach largely into the physical. while there is the danger of having an extreme experience, it's relatively difficult overall, let alone with basic videos. Second, i ultimately trust that the divine will help that person find an appropriate teacher when the time comes, if a video is all they have available tot hem. there's nothing wrong with personal/private, individual inquiry, as long as one is aware of the risks. Most aren't aware of the risks.
and the risks aren't terrible. it's nothing that can't be overcome. I mean, really, my client's husband's OBE experience was really basic, and had he allowed me to simply explain what happened to him, he'd likely be able to say "ok, i get that." and then go right back to yoga--practicing alone or otherwise. The fear could have been overcome relatively simply, i would say, just through explaination. And he didn't need me to explain it, as there are resources out there that do. But instead, he isolated himself and abandoned something that was otherwise very beneficial for him. And if it had been a psychotic break instead, that too could be dealt with in a number of ways--and been overcome.
so, any spiritual inquiry, without touchstones from other humans, wisdom texts, etc, can be dicey. spiritual inquiry is a narrow way, because it's easy to get sucked in by the ego, by old wounds and traumas, and to confuse these with reality. but that's part of the process of spiritual inquiry as well--falling off that knife's edge and learning from it.
for myself, as a teacher, i'm skeptical in general when people start to approach me with their experiences that they think may be 'spiritual enlightenments' or whatever else. our body-minds and egos connected are great at giving us feelings and experiences that are great (LSD-like or whatever), but are just distractions. a teacher who understands this can tell the difference rather quickly. And i've found that i can tell the difference rather quickly too. my BS meter starts going off. diagnosing myself is harder, which is why i have a priest to help. but, if it seems like something extreme--real, but not necessarily a spiritual development--then i'll recommend touchstones who may be better able to deal with these things. I can really only work within my own knowledge, and if i suspect that someone has surpassed my knowledge, i can send them to a teacher or other person who may have that knowledge. And i don't hesitate to do so.
Edited by zoebird 2006-03-23 9:14 AM
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| Thanks for you long missive. Sounds like we actually agree. I was going to make some other comments but I think we beat my points into the ground enough already. | |
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Weary of this