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| Hi all,
I just got back from my very first visit to a chirpractor. I'm 5 & 1/2 m. pregnant and am having some pretty bad pain from sciadic nerver & sacro-illiac (sp?) joint issues, so I thought I'd give it a try. My experience was less than positive but not awful. I asked a lot of questions about what happens to the spine during pregnancy and the doctor was either not sure of herself or just had a personality that communicated insecurity or they're not used to anyone asking questions, which I find hard to believe. During the adjustments, she had my lie on my side ,upper leg crossed over, upper shoulder facing the ceiling and she pushed on my upper shoulder, upper knee for lots of popping noises. It didn't hurt, but I was surprised by this because I've been told the #1 thing in yoga modifications during pregnancy is to never, ever do this kind of spinal twist. So I asked her in a non-confrontational way to explain to me what she was doing and why it wouldn't be safe in my yoga practice but okay on her table. She immediately answered with "if you're not comfortable with this, we can do adjustments with you sitting down." I tried to ask her again, explaining I wasn't necessarily questioning her medical wisdom, I just liked to understand things, and she said "well, I've been adjusted this way during all four of my pregnancies and I can assure you it's safe." Sigh. So I came home, went online to do some quick "research" and am not finding anything. I'm posting this to see if there are any chiropractic experts out there (also familiar with yoga & pregnancy). I'm also going to call my doctor and see if she can enlighten me. It just makes me very nervous and I want to understand what it is they are doing to me and if it's safe or not for the baby.
Thanks for your input,
Joanna
p.s. I do understand the reason for chiropractic care (especially during pregnancy) and what's going on physically and neurologically. What I'm not clear on is specifically this twisting of the spine & what adjustments are done and why in prenatal chirpractic care (b/c I wasn't comfortable there, I probably won't go back, but would like to be informed enough to seek out the kind of chirpractic professional I need to be seeing). | |
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| Hi Joanna,
Bummer you had that less than positive experience. I know there are chiros out there that specialize in treating pregnant women - my boss is one of them. He has special tables just for them.
I wonder if there is an association of chiros that specialize in treating pregnant women that you can contact for some referrals? Or perhaps your OB can recommend one.
Wish I could help out more ~ | |
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| i do not know why it would be ok in chiropractic, but in yoga it's taught that it pulls too much on the abdomen and causes compression of the abdomen which can have negative affect on the baby.
but, there is a 'lower spinal' twist that is allowed for pregnant women that i teach in prenatal classes (or classes with pregnant women) that helps with the SI and sciatic pain. essentially, reclining on an ascending pile of blankets (lowest at hips; highest at head) so that the mother isn't reclining directly on her back, the right foot moves to the right edge of the mat, the left foot moves to the left edge of the mat. feet are flat on the floor, knees bent. then, both knees are dropped toward one side, held for a bit, and then moved to the other side. keeping the feet apart moves the spinal twist down to the lowest part of the back, removing abdominal compression that comes during regular spinal twists. | |
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| This is good to know - I've never been shown this. I just tried it and there wasn't that pinching pain I usually get. Thanks. | |
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| joanna - I would not be terribly comfortable with that adjustment during pregnancy but I don't know enough to say if it is safe or not. I have been to 3 chiros in the past 5 years or so and they all seem to be backing off this sort of adjustment in general and going with less "crunchy" sorts of adjustments. The fancy table idea seems to be making a bigger impact now and all sorts of adjusting tools. I hope you can get some good advice from those here who know more about it. And oh, how I wish I had known about chiropractic during my pregnancies! It would have been so helpful, especially with the second.
How does your back feel? | |
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| I always makes me nervous when somebody says "because I said so". Generally it means they don't know the reason. In this case it might be good, it might be bad. There's a lot of rote learning and rule of thumb in most disciplines. | |
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| Tourist - my back feels okay today, but it comes and goes anyway, so I have no idea if it's due to the adjustments or not. It's all very strange, because my first pregnancy I was in horrible shape (and was in grad school, finishing up my Master's, hunched over books ALL the time) - no back pain. This pregnancy I went into it in quite good shape (running + yoga six days a week, at my ideal weight) and have had constant back problems. It's very frustrating to be trying to go to yoga and stay healthy when every time I left my leg for something as simple as stepping through (no jumping now!) from downdog to standing forward bend, or bringing it back from warrior II to plank, I get a zapping pain shooting down my leg. So it's either somebody explain to me what's going on so I can do things correctly and solve this problem or I may have to stop doing most of my yoga practice.  I'm complaining, aren't I? How annoying.  Thanks for any input from you all.
btw, Green Jello, I'm totally with you on the no explanation thing. I've learned _especially_ with medical care that if they can't or won't explain something, go somewhere else. But it doesn't mean the whole chiropractic care is wrong for me - just this one particular office. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | GreenJello - 2006-03-10 10:49 PM
I always makes me nervous when somebody says "because I said so". Generally it means they don't know the reason. In this case it might be good, it might be bad. There's a lot of rote learning and rule of thumb in most disciplines.
Hey GJ, I say this to my kids all the time. When I feel that I should NOT have to give an explanation. I know the answer, when I say "because I said so", means you need to listen to your Mother, follow directions and you are not ready for that answer yet,  Besides, usually my kids figure it out on their own. As a parent, it is not an option whether my kids obey and listen to me or not....it is a requirement while they are in my care. Sometimes we have time to sit down and go over the instructions with the answers, and sometimes we don't have time and sometimes we have spontaneous situations that arise. The times we don't have time or when those spontaneous situations arise, they KNOW it's better to listen and obey. On the other hand, my kids feel safe and nurtured, I'm with them every day, they look to me for guidance, therefore, it is easy for them to perform this task with me.
This is the same principal when you have a guru. If you don't trust that guru or feel nurtured and guided, then it is so easy to break away and have a judgement about the teacher. Then the relationship is destroyed and it ends up being useless. That is why so many people here in the West are confused. They want all these answers right now, instead of having faith in what is happening to them. I think this principal could be applied to everything. Problem I see, is that we don't have much faith in anyone do we?? Not even Chiropractors.
I see Joan's situation as very scary, because she is already questioning her faith in her Doctor...therefore, I would suggest you quit that doctor or have a better understanding about what you are trying to achieve with this Doctor. That is a very important factor in healing. If you can't trust your doc, then you better run like hell, far away. Maybe this is not the appropriate time for you to be seeing a Chiropractor while your pregnant. I know I would be very reluctant to try something new, now that I have another life to consider. I would stick to a good OB/GYN and Baby specialists, rest, relax and have a wonderful 9 months. Find a good Yoga teacher like Zoebird who likes to teach pregnant women - stick to restorative asanas. Then I would get out my decorating books and start doing shopping asana's...those are really fun and can be restorative, if you let them. Be careful with paint, use quality paints and don't breathe fumes. Congratulations. | |
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| Joanna - one way to deal with that sort of pain is to do each pose individually and not be working on flow right now. Go into down dog, come back out, then go into your next standing pose starting from tadasana again. The movements between poses in flow can be awkward and doing one pose at a time might give you more control and hence less pain. My second pregnancy was a lot more uncomfortable as well. They are just really different! I hope you find a practitioner that works better for you. All of my chiros and other workers have been able to answer all my questions. When I first went for accupuncture over 25 years ago, I had a guy like your chiro and I quit going to him after a couple of visits. I knew it wasn't the treatment that was the problem, just the person doing it.
Cyndi - my kids knew there were times to comment or get an explanation and times to "just do it." I liked to explain things to them but they had to know there were times when they had to respond and not ask questions. I would just say "no editorial comment!" WE all need to know when it is ok to question and when, like emergency situations, it is not ok. | |
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| Cyndi, you're correct that we need to give people a chance to prove themselves, and have a little faith that they know more than we do. When I see or hear something that raises a red or yellow flag, I usually wait a little bit and see what comes of it. Sometimes it's nothing, sometimes it the tip of the iceberg. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
I have a degree in chiropractic from the oxford college of chiropractic which teaches a gentle form of chiropractic.
i'm not surprised to a certain extent why the chiro couldn't answer your question, seeing as she may not have had any experience in yoga. As far as i can determine, twists are not recommended during the earliest stages of pregnancy because of the dangers of lifting the pressure in the abdomen to a degree that would be harmful to the foetus-at the stage of pregnancy that you are at, this isn't a consideration. I would be careful of staying in any position for any length of time, in case you cut off the blood supply to the foetus, and would avoid high intensity exercise for long periods to avoid foetal hypoxia, and also any classes which involve long periods of lying down, again because of foetal hypoxia.
Incidentally, I believe some chiropractic schools recommend not manipulating pregnant women in the first trimester, again because of the changes in pressure in the abdomen, so there is a link between chiropractic manipulation and yoga twists and the practice thereof-but I think that many chiropractors choose to ignore these guidelines, which are not universal by any means.
Take care, enjoy your pregnancy
Nick | |
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| Thank you, Nick, this is actually probably the answer I was looking for. No one told me why I shouldn't do twists in yoga - funny how I blindly took this advice but not the chiro's! Well, that's the conservative me, I suppose. Hmmm...so there's really NO danger in spinal twists anymore? I mean, with the precautions you mentioned and I follow, of course. ?? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
I think that it is very difficult to give guidelines because one size does definitely not fit all as far as exercise during pregnancy is concerned. Whether something is dangerous or not can depend on the anatomy and function of your venous and reproductive systems, and also how experienced at exercise or how you perform the exercise can all make a difference to the outcome.
I have never seen a satisfactory explanation of why women shouldn't do twists in yoga-in chiropractic manipulation, where the adjustment is very sudden, it is easy to see that there is a big increase in intra-abdominal pressure which might be harmful to a young foetus. But unless you swing into the twist as fast as yuo can, this wouldn't apply to yoga practice. As I said before, it's pretty difficult to do any exercise without raising the IAP, because if you are breathing deeply, the IAP will be raised.
I think to a large extent it depends on how careful you like to be, or if you have a history of miscarriages. I think I mentioned once here that newly pregnat woen are advised to sneeze with their mouths open, to avoid the build-up of too much IAP. Whilst this might be good advice in general, it is hard to believe that every woman who sneezes with her mouth closed will suffer a miscarriage. But these are general guidelines to be applied to 50% of the population.
If, for example, you are not allowed to do twists, then that should mean that all pregnant women in their first trimester would be banned from driving-you would not be able to look over turn your body to look around when driving. If you were to reverse into a police car and told them that you did it because your yoga teacher told you that you would miscarry if you twisted, they would probably stick you and your teacher straight in to the local asylum.
I sometimes think that the advice that is given to women in yoga classes is not necessarily based on medical fact, but is used in the absence of knowledge to make the teacher, or method, appear wise. You probably get bigger increases in IAP if you have a poo than during most yoga postures!
Take care
Nick | |
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| I love the sneeze thing, Nick - it is one of those ideas that makes me shake my head and laugh. One more thing for expectant mothers to fret about and take on as guilt before the baby is even born. As if we don't have enought guilt already... 
The yoga advice on twists is in fact, form the Iyengar standpoint, only for "closed" twists such as maricyasana III (which is very much like the chiro adjustment) and not for open twists such as bharadhvajasana I and shoulder checking while driving.
I do try to err on the side of caution as a teacher (liability insurance is not cheap!) but I also accept the advice of my teachers on this. OTOH, there were times I would have had pretty much any adjustment to make my back feel better when I was pregnant. I just don't know if I would have liked to have it done by someone who wouldn't/couldn't explain it to me. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi tourist,
Yes, it's a difficult one, I don't think that science can give a definite answer, because each woman is unique in so many different ways. So each twist will be done differently by each woman. The effects will therefore be dependent on the technique that she uses. i wonder what the effects of pregnancy are on the ability of the woman to use her oblque abdominals in their function as rotators of the trunk. i imagine that their mechanical advantage is severely compromised by the increased curvature that a foetus will impose on the abdominal wall. Still, I would have thought that by practicing twists, it could be argued that a pregnant woman could train her abdominal muscles so that a quicker rehab is experienced after the birth of their child. I'm just thinking out loud, really, hope you don't mind!
Take care
Nick | |
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| No, I don't mind There is also a huge difference between pregnancies in an individual woman so what was good last time around may not be good the next. My first "carried high" and so I got heartburn and breathlessness etc. The 2nd, probably because I did not exercise between them but also due to god-knows-what, carried low. So low that walking in the later months was painful - it seemed to cut off circulation in my thighs. So there would undoubtedly be variables there as well, not to mention the individual risk factors, as you say, for miscarriage etc. Big and interesting topic. These threads are making me miss all my old childbirth and lactation consultant friends! | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
Is the zapping pain that shoots down your leg on the front or the back? Pain running down the back of the leg would suggest irriatation of the sciatic nerve which emerges from the lower lumbar spine and upper sacrum, and pain running down the front of the leg would suggest impingement of the femoral nerve, which comes from the upper lumbar spine (L1-L3).
I'm going to presume the pain is running down the back of the leg because of the movements you were describing. Leg raises are used as a means of strtching the sciatic nerve to determine the level of involvement of the sciatic nerve. Really severe sufferers can often lift the foot only a few inches off the table. I believe the pain is of a level that encourages suicidal tendencies, so my heart goes out to these people.
I would guess that in your case a mixture of aggravating factors ay be at work-hormonal influences can encourage joint laxity-in the sacroiliac (and L5-S1) joint, where it is so important to have a minimal amount of movement, pregnancy can cause the area to become too loose, and the passage of the nerve as it emerges from the spine can be interrupted by the surrounding tissue-think of how an earthquake throws trees across the road, creates fissures, landslides-this all distorts the signals that travel up the sensory nerves, making you feel pain even when there is no stimulus.
The addition of the weight of the foetus which pulls this area forwards creates an additional load on the joint which probably doesn't help!
It's difficult to tell you to give up, but i would say go to classes or do exercises at home where it it may be easier for you to devise a practice which does not aggravate the leg. I think it is important that if you do seek chiropractic care that you also seek rehabilitative care-I think this makes a powerful combination that both therapies alone cannot answer as well (sorry for the bad English!).
The trouble that I perceive with adjusting pregnant women is that if there are hormones which are basically loosening up the joints, why use a therapy which loosens them further? The problem is that the therapies can seem to work temporarily, causing a 'click addiction' which means that the woman has to go back to the therapist again and again.
Try to use a support for your lumbar spine (and use it properly!). You may ask a physio about the use of a trochanteric belt, which helps to squeeze the sacroiliac joint. Take up exercise which strengthens the postural setting of the area, and begin to regard yoga not as an exercise which produces movement in this area, but as an exercise during which you seek to prevent movement in this area despite the external forces that are built up during the postures and movements. This is similiar to the underlying foundations of pilates, where the abdomino-pelvic floor muscles are contracted and then the arms and legs are moved around, with movement in the lower back being regarded as a failure. In this way, yoga becomes a means of protecting the lower spine whilst promoting the flexibility, posture, and strength of the hips and shoulders, and consequently the legs and arms.
I'm a big fan of glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate, and also MSM, which might be relatively cheap aids in your combatting the pain.
Will add to this later, I just have to go and torture some deserving ladies at the health club with some Astanga!
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-03-16 4:33 AM
Hi Joanna,
Is the zapping pain that shoots down your leg on the front or the back? Pain running down the back of the leg would suggest irriatation of the sciatic nerve which emerges from the lower lumbar spine and upper sacrum, and pain running down the front of the leg would suggest impingement of the femoral nerve, which comes from the upper lumbar spine (L1-L3).
The pain is down my lower back, buttock, and sometimes down to my toes. Right now it is particularly bad - I tried VERY hard in yoga this a.m. to be gentle, gentle, gentle but i did something "wrong" - I just don't know what. I am headed to another chiropractor in half an hour, so your email is timely.
It's difficult to tell you to give up, but i would say go to classes or do exercises at home where it it may be easier for you to devise a practice which does not aggravate the leg. I think it is important that if you do seek chiropractic care that you also seek rehabilitative care-I think this makes a powerful combination that both therapies alone cannot answer as well (sorry for the bad English!).
Your Engilsh is fine! Again, this email is timely. I have printed it and will bring it with me to the chiro. I dont' really know anything about "rehabilitative care" - but I am assuming they will.
The trouble that I perceive with adjusting pregnant women is that if there are hormones which are basically loosening up the joints, why use a therapy which loosens them further? The problem is that the therapies can seem to work temporarily, causing a 'click addiction' which means that the woman has to go back to the therapist again and again.
Yes - I'm very apprehensive if I hear "you have to come back twice a week for the next six months at least." But, then again, I'm no M.D. or chiropractictioner, so I guess I don't really know. It's good to hear this from someone who DOES know.
Try to use a support for your lumbar spine (and use it properly!). You may ask a physio about the use of a trochanteric belt, which helps to squeeze the sacroiliac joint. Take up exercise which strengthens the postural setting of the area, and begin to regard yoga not as an exercise which produces movement in this area, but as an exercise during which you seek to prevent movement in this area despite the external forces that are built up during the postures and movements. This is similiar to the underlying foundations of pilates, where the abdomino-pelvic floor muscles are contracted and then the arms and legs are moved around, with movement in the lower back being regarded as a failure. In this way, yoga becomes a means of protecting the lower spine whilst promoting the flexibility, posture, and strength of the hips and shoulders, and consequently the legs and arms.
This paragraph is most helpful. I don't really understand exactly how to find an exercise to strengthen the "postural setting" of the sacroiliac area, but hopefully someone at the studio or at the Dr.'s office will. I wish, wish, wish I knew more about my anatomy this pregnancy. I'm reading quite a bit, but it's not really helpful without a knowledgable PERSON to reinforce or direct.
You've been most helpful - much thanks,
Joanna | |
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| Nick - sorry for the confusing post. Apparently, I don't know how to use the "quote" function correctly! My comments are in there, between paragraphs.  | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
I don't know how to use the quote function properly either, so don't worry! You asked how you would find exercises that protect your lower back, or at least find good posture whilst you were exercising. The only feasible way to find good back posture by yourself is to invest in a pressure biofeedback device-these are inflatable cushions which can be placed under the lower back and you lie down on the bag. A tube connects to the device and a meter measures the pressure that is being placed on the bag. You are supposed to inflate the bag until the meter reads the correct pressure, and then try to maintain that pressure as you move your arms and legs. Another good way to find the neutral spine would be to do cat pose-http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=8
This website gives some basic instructions on doing this properly-if you search for anything with'stuart mcgill' on it, he seems to be the top person in the world for giving back advice that is pertinent to yoga students (and he doesn't even realize it!).
It would seem sensible at this time to stop the classes for a bit, or ask the teacher if they can give you a private class so that you can develop your own safe practice. Get the problem resolved, do rehab to whipe the problem off the face of this earth, and then return to yoga with the intention of using it as a tool for improving your spine-this is easier said than done-if i ever manage to complete my book I'll send you a copy-should be useful for using as a yoga block or for wedging doors open.
Take care
Nick
Edited by Nick 2006-03-16 1:01 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
The thing that you will notice with these exercises is that the effort is in finding a neutral spine and pelvis-with yoga, this is a vital but easily overlooked aspect which would by itself greatly reduce the problems faced by those suffering from back pain. The trouble is, there's usually a tight hip muscle that is responsible for making a neutral spine difficult to acihieve-usually the psoas in backward bends and one of the hamstrings in forward bends (the hamstrings are muscles of the hip, as well as of the knee).
How did it go with your chiro? Great success, I hope!
Nick | |
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| i love stumptuous.com web site. she's an amazing gal.
i was taught that the compression, if held, could be problematic on the abdomen. most people do twists 'high' rather than low, and some feel compressed during the twist--even when they're not pregnant. i want to keep my pregnant ladies abdominals open and comfortable, so we do 'low twists' like the one i described. | |
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| Stumptuous looks very cool. Great sense of humour! I would love to give her some alignment tips, though  Pelvic tilt good, collapsed chest bad... | |
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Location: London, England | Hi tourist,
Her alignment is awful, isn't it? it was the first site I came across and I was in a hurry-will try to find some good pics
Take care
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Zoebird,
I think this is an interesting subject and I hope that you don't take offence with my questioning of the perceived wisdom in Yoga which contra-indicates twists for pregnant women. I haven't been convinced by the idea that compression is bad-you would probably get much more compression by breathing in deeply, climbing the stairs, getting into, or out of, a car. Given the hard physical work that women in some parts of the world have to do, and given the millions of western women who compress their abdomens every day with the activities of their lives, I would expect a lot more miscarriages-practically no one would make it to full-term, unless they stayed in bed!
Also, why keep the'abdominals open and comfortable'? A woman with awareness, endurance and strength in her abdominals is a woman with a stronger back to withstand the weigth of the foetus, and is a woman who rehabilitates more successfully after the childbirth, and is also going to recover more quickly from a c-section, and is aslo going to provide a better effort in squeezing the baby out due to the increased pressure that she can sustain. I'm probably mis-reading what you mean by open and comfortable, or it may be that the women you teach get benefit from the relaxed approach that you use which may then outweigh the benefits of having strong abs.
Take care
Nick | |
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| Nick - the yogis would probably explain it like this - yes, a pregnant woman is twisting and turning and doing heavy work, but her asana practice should be a time to counteract and recover from that work, not reinforce "wrong" actions done in day-to-day living.
As far as I know it really has nothing to do with miscarriages, just creating the optimum environment for the baby. In North America, the concern is mostly extreme caution due to the liability issues - not that the yoga could cause real problems, but because any problem that arises would probably be blamed on the yoga, right or wrong. And I had another point but it has flown out of my head at the moment  | |
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Location: London, England | Hi tourist,
Point taken. But supposing the act of using the abdominal muscles encourages the pregnant woman to carry out the activities of her daily life with greater skill, resulting in both a reduced workload and a better chance of getting through the pregnancy without injury? Just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean that it is not good for her to keep fit. Considering the support that a functional abdominal muscle system offers to the spine, pelvis, abdominal organs, method of breathing, all of which are affected by the gestation and childbirth, I would propose that an intelligently designed exercise program would be of enormous help to women whose physique can be permanently affected by having children.
Thanks for explaining that miscarriages are not the reason why twists arn't recommended.
Nick | |
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| Well, I have now seen the new chiropractor twice and I really love her. She's 5 months pregnant herself and is quite sensitive to my concerns and she and I are on the "same page" of sorts. Due to zoebird's recommendation that I read a book called "The Gentle Birth Method" and some other reading and researching I've been doing, I'm really headed down a path of lots of "ah-hah" moments. While I won't be doing a home birth this time, my ideal scenario would be a water birth at a birthing center with a midwife. This is not an option in my location, so I have been exploring the fundamental precepts behind The Gentle Birth Method (self-hypnosis, nutritional supplementation, dietary regulation, and techniques to manipulate or guide the physical and psychological system).
My sciatica nerve pain is an immediate problem, but I think it's actually led me to realize some important fundamental truths about myself (body + mind). Here's what the chiro said and I think I agree with: I have a lumbar sublaxation (common prob in pregnancies, apparently) and some other structural misalignments which could be a result of an old hip injury on the opposite side. My yoga practice is not hurting the problem, but the pain is made worse every time I do yoga because my body is "performing" the postures "wrong" and there's nothing I can do about this until the spine is readjusted and muscle memory continues to hold this proper alignment. Soooo...I'm taking a few weeks off of yoga and beginning regular adjustments at the chiro. She explained to me that in my first labor & delivery one of the reasons my baby had such a difficult time exiting the birth canal was because he didn't have room to turn himself around to "sunny-side down" (optimal) positioning.
I've always assumed my "hips are just tight" and there's nothing I can do about it except yoga, yoga, yoga. Well, she worked on me a little bit massaging, or pressing, on the ligaments on one side of my pelvic region and immediately my right hip opened up more. It was weird. This, combined with the adjustments she did to my spine, I think are the reason for this widening of the pelvic girdle. I know I'm all over the place in this post, but I haven't fully grasped everything I've taken in the last few days. Hopefully, coherent thought will come soon!
My question now is this: this is an applied kinesiology chiropractic office in which they practice NET (neuro emotional technique). It uses muscle testing to highlight and then release (how - I'm not sure yet) blockages to the body's energy flow. This is the part I don't understand yet. Well, the "action plan" the clinic recommends is kind of pricey for me, but I think I want to go for it. However, I wanted to check to see if any of you had heard of, or practiced, NET and if so, what do you think? I'm going to continue with the spinal adjustments but wasn't sure about buying into the NET therapies yet. Any thoughts??
Thanks,
Joanna | |
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| nick:
i do not take this personally, of course, as it is an important exploration of theory and practice.
i have been researching prenatal yoga for a number of years now, and i have yet to come up with 'solid' answers for much of anything. for the post part, they are general like what tourist wrote, or they're more of a 'just do as i say' sort of quality. i have yet to find a lot of 'hard science' in the western sense on the matter.
in a way, this follows along the same question as whether or not a woman should invert during menstruation. there is very little 'western scientific' evidence that this causes harm, but there is a tradition of it that talks about energy movement, the concept of needing to rest and relax during that time, etc. and ultimately, each woman must decide for herself.
i can say that it's also related to a conversation that my MIL and I had recently. We were talking about a young pregnant woman whom my MIL knows. this young woman is a jogger/runner and has done this activity for many years. She's now about 5-6 months pregnant, and continuing to run her normal mileage. My MIL thinks that this is horrible and dangerous for the pregnancy. I have read very little literature that states that this sort of fitness--to a woman who is acclimated to it--is problematic in a normal, healthy pregnancy. The same can be said of any sport or physical activity, unless that activity could cause damage to the abdomen--such as soccer/football and the potential for a ball hitting the belly at high force or something like this.
in many ways, the same can be true of yoga. i have many clients who practice power, vinyasa, and astanga yoga with me for many years before they become pregnant. after they're pregnant, we only make a few changes--no more abdominal locks, no more laying on your back after a certain time, no more laying on your tummy after a certain time, and no more twists (except low twists). They can do the rest of the practice--including things like navasana, which is an abdominal movement--and they have fine, healthy pregnancies. I do not generally take on 'new' and pregnant clients unless they're in a pre-natal appropriate class (beginners yoga with me is prenatal appropriate if one is pregnant and has never done yoga).
in what i have studied related to pregnancy fitness, there is actually very little information out there for active women such as myself. I recently read an article about 'fitness for pregnancy' and the assumption is that the woman was absolutely inactive prior to becoming pregnant--which does happen--and therefore it gave a routine that was so simple and so gentle, i'd be bored with it in about 5 seconds. and then when i look around, i see women doing all sorts of physical activities that they did before pregnant, while pregnant--all the way until the birthday.
so, it's difficult for me to say 'this is that, this is absolute.' and when it comes to twists, because i don't know entirely, i err on the side of caution. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
Yes i have studied something that sounds similiar-kinaesiology is widely taught in chiropractic colleges or the students are familiar with the technique. I never got on with it personally (I like to leave the subconscious deeply buried..) and there were too many unexplained or dogmatic philosophies associated with it. But that was just me, so if you find it helps, thats great too. Glad you found someone you can relate to, it's so vital in the process
Take care of yourselves!!
Nick | |
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| joanne:
i'm glad that things are going so well for you. i do not know anything about NET, but i hope that someone can offer you insight into the issue. good luck! | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Zoebird,
Good post, as ever! Some thought provoking stuff, but I've been up fornearly twenty hours, so my brain isn't able to respond-Sounds great, though. You can tell I'm shattered, no?
Good night
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
I think that some people seem to get on very well with applied kinaesiology, and others, like myself, absolutely hate it. Part of the reason I don't like it is because I've noticed its practicioner's using hypnotic suggestion and mind-control techniques to convince their patients of the therapeutic worth of the visit to the kinaesiologist. This is all very well, asuming it makes the patient better, but I feel that a smokescreen is erected that prevents all parties from perceiving the truth. Please don't tell your chiro what I said, becuase there's almost a cult mentality surrounding kinaesiologists in this country, and i really don't want any of them on my back-I can't be bothered dealing with these people!
If I were you, and I'm obviously not (although, if I was a girl, obviously i'd be a brilliant one! ), I would go for the chiropractic (if it helps). Constantly analyze the worth of the treatment.In this country, and i think America might be worse, I think chiropractors can sometimes be guilty of spinning a line so expertly that they end up using similiar mind-control techniques to the kinaesiologists-you wouldn't believe some of the stuff i've witnessed. It's one of the main reasons why i still teach yoga, i didnt want to be associated with all the hype.
Take care
Nick | |
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| Okay, Nick, I appreciate your comments - I do. I would also appreciate, however, some reasons why I should be apprehensive. Is this just a "gut" thing that energies are not being blocked in the body - that it is all a money-making scheme cloaked in convincing alternative healing rhetoric? Or are there specific scientific (or researched studies) reasons for knowing it is quack science? I really am open - I don't have an opinion yet. What she is saying resonates with what I feel is true, but I'm aware my "feelings" are too wrapped up in wishful thinking and I can't quite trust them either. Any feedback (really) is wanted.
-Joanna | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
Sorry, i should have said more clearly that it was just my gut instinct-but like i said, whatever works for you, and I think that it's really good that you've found somebody who you feel is a positive asset-this is probably the most important point in the relationship that you have with her.
Take care
Nick | |
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| joanna:
as i've mentioned before, i'm a 'big believer' in energy blocks and energy overflows. i believe that these often have various origins--from physical trauma to emotional trauma to spirit or soul trauma. part of unblocking is working with the energy body itself--through yoga, through various healing techniques such as acupuncture, thai massage, etc. the other part is understanding how you got the block in the first place, where it's located and why.
you've mentioned before that your hips are blocked for emotional reasons. While getting the energy work done will help, so will truly working with those underlying emotional reasons and healing them directly through emotional work. those emotional reasons may have spiritual implications too, and there may need to be work on that level as well. I believe, as you say, that this is a physical manifestation of something else going on--something much deeper.
now for some practical advice that you can take or leave. i'm constantly wary of an individual who wants to sell me, up front, a very expensive care package. this is one of my concerns about chiropractic in general. i'll give an example that my husband and i experienced that you can think about.
in recent months, my husband has been having a specific neck problem. we're not entirely sure of the origin, but a change in his weight training routine has helped tremendously. he removed a movement and it made a huge difference. but, the damage itself was 'done' and a friend recommended chiropractic. Essentially, i'm a believer in chiropractice care overall. i think it is beneficial. So, my husband and i went to a chiropractor (in network) to see what needed to be done.
we went for the consultation, and the chiropractor recommended 4 months of 'intensive care' during which my husband would visit the office 4 days a week for adjustments and other therapies. then, after 4 months, he would do 4 more months of 'less intensive' care, where his adjustments would be twice a week. and then 4 months of once a week, then a re-evaluation for 'maintenance.' Our insurance only covers $2000 worth of care--and only if prescribed by a doctor as a form of physical therapy. This chiropractor wanted us to pay, up front for the whole year of stuff. the cost we were given was $6,000.
we told him that we would think about it. And what then? we started to think about it and my husband decided he wanted to check out other modalities. He already gets massage once a week. he gets thai massage from me roughly 3-4 times a week. he does yoga asana twice a week. It occured to him that hellerworker may be a good idea, and we happened to find one (by accident--are there accidents?) the next day.
when we went for our consultation with her, she really listened to ryan describe it and then started to touch gently and get a sense of what was going on. she asked about his other therapies (massage, thai massage, yoga) and she and i talked about his thai massage and yoga--she asked for my interpretations and impressions to inform her work. She then said thta she recommends that he comes for an hour-long session, at a discounted price (since it's all out of pocket), to see if it's really what he wants to do. And then from that session, they could talk about how to proceed--once a month, once a week, whatever.
when i do thai massage, i take a similar approach. if a person comes to me with a specific problem--whether it's yoga or thai massage actually--i explain to them how these modalities work, and how they take repitition and practice, but that they don't necessarily have to be concentrated. If the condition is relatively severe, i recommend 4-8 sessions established to get a basis, but only after i've given a discounted first thai massage or private lesson. While they pay for them up front, they can use them when they want--once a month, once a week, biweekly, whatever. And, there's no pressure to do it that way. I also recommend that we can 'pay as we go' and that they can make appointments whenever it suits them. Nothing is 'locked in.' You know what i mean?
So, my concern here is that you'll be locked into an expensive therapy that you don't fully comprehend yet. but, it could be absolutely the right thing for you. i really don't know.
if there is an emotional underpinning, until you solve this, the energy work will only release so much, and only go so far. if that emotional underpinning had a spiritual impact, then the emotional and energy work will only go so far until the spirit is healed. but, it's ok--it's a life long process anyway, so there's no time crunch in which you have to complete something or get it done--right? but, i recommend that in addition to whatever energy work you're getting--which are another layer of physical therapies, with emotional and spiritual impacts--you also get other forms of therapies to help heal the emotional issues and spiritual issues that impact this area as well.
am i being clear? i don't want to be confusing. | |
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| Hi Zoebird:
I know you posted a while ago, but I've been sort of wrestling with my own feelings of disapointments, frustrations and "where do I go now?" thoughts. I wish I'd been a bit more cautious with laying down the $$ for the chiro, as the pain is still constant (although less severe) and has now kept me from yoga for two weeks. I am starting to feel discouraged about that and know I need to explore meditation more and pranayama exercises. It's not that I think the chiro is not helping at all - she really is - but it's not the magical cure I hoped it would be.
I wanted to post you, specifically and personally, because it is due to your prompting and posts on another thread that have led me down the path I'm on in this pregnancy which I know is a much more aware and positive path than my first pregnancy. I'm just a baby in learning everything, but it truly is because of your posts that I even began to consider "natural" childbirthing. I have been reading like crazy for the last month and while my sciatica is killing me, and my yoga is sadly absent from my life, my emotional attitude toward the birth is drastically improved. I've even had three dreams where the labor was this amazingly peaceful event - I have never dreamed about labor before these dreams. I met with a woman yesterday who does home births and talked to her for four hours - I fully expected to be emotionally very vulnerable and shaken, but instead it was calm and intimate without upset. This tells me (along wiht the dreams and how I feel in general) I am really overcoming my fears.
I can't tell you how much this surprises me. I still haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do (birth plan, that is) because I'm still reading, contemplating, talking with my husband, considering the finances, etc. But one thing I do know: relaxation techniques (whether that be self-hypnosis, visualization, affirmation statements, etc.) are the key to this labor going in a smooth way. I am learning so much about the body, physically, and what happens during labor and how I can "help" or "go with" the contractions instead of fight them. I am even a little excited to venture into this experience to see how well "it works."
I considered PMing you but wanted other women to read this too, in case others are out there who've also had difficulties with either a traumatic labor or hearing about other women's horror stories. But, anyway, this is a thank you post to Zoebird. It's funny, 'cause I've been on this forum for nearly two years now, and I don't post often because I don't like controversy with people I don't know. Zoebird, you happen to be one of the people I would read and disagree with but not venture a dissenting opinion. I'm sure I sitll don't agree with a lot of what you believe - but you have really helped me out in this one paricular area and it has and will lead to an examination of my entire lifestyle. (I'm having a lot of conversations with my husband about health care and perhaps switching to a homeopath or self-educating and dropping all but major catastrophic. He's not sold yet - well, nor am I quite).
Anyway, the sciatic nerve is still really bothering me and I don't have a solution. The chiro is helping somewhat but no major curing is going on. I miss yoga so much I could cry (and have!) but it's forcing me to look in other directions I haven't explored enough in my short yoga career - namely, meditation and pranayma practice. So, in the end, perhaps I will be grateful for my physical limitations.
Thanks to all for their input and helpful suggestions.
-Joanna | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
Sorry to hear your sciatic pain is still bothering you. From what I have seen, this kind of pain is one that is extreme. or can be. I hope you find relief soon. Are there any physios related to the pregancy unit at your hospital? i would think that these physios would probably be the most expert at dealing with women who suffer sciatica during pregnancy-just a thought.
Take care
Nick | |
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| I went to one of them first, before going to a chiropractor. While she was very kind and informative, she didn't tell me anything new and her exercises have not helped - I did them for two weeks and gave up and went to the chiro. ! But the pain is manageable - it's not a terrible case, just enough to keep me from being as active as I'd like. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Joanna,
Hope you don't mind me giving yet another piece of advice or information. This website (http://www.dianelee.ca/videos/compressor.html) is about a belt called the compressor, which i believe is similiar to the trochanteric belt that I talked about before. It is designed to allow a woman to keep exercising if she has problems with sacroiliac joint laxity during pregnancy. Diane lee is a Canadian Physiotherapist who is considered to be a leading expert on the issues surrounding the sacroiliac joint. Most of the stuff she talks about is probably a bit too academic to be of any use to you, but it may be worth trawling through the site for any ideas.
Take care
Nick | |
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| joanna:
i'm glad that i have been of some help to you. i'm also glad that you are progressing so well with your own thoughts and feelings about your upcoming birthday. it's an exciting process, and i'm so glad that you've been having positive experiences.
i know that you haven't been attending your yoga asana classes, but have you spoken to your teacher about your sciatic pain? there are a number of my clients (including my own mother) who struggle with sciatic pain either chronicly or occassionally and i work with them specificly on this issue. i find it takes hands on work, or i'd go ahead and offer to help you as best i could. I just don't think we live close to each other. if we do, then we can make arrangements (i'm in pennsylvania--philadelphia area); i would be happy to check you out and see what's what and what yoga asanas and pranayamas may help. Talking to your teacher may help, as well as attending class even though there is discomfort and modifying as necessary. for many of my clients, yoga helps ease the pain a bit. i encourage you to consider returning to it if you feel that you can.
Have you practiced Nadi Shodhana Pranayama? it might be particularly beneficial in combination with an astanga-inspired, pregnancy-modified practice. it's an energy-body cleansing pranayama that is really opening and energizing. it's one of my favorites and i usually end most of my classes with it.
I'm glad that things are going well for you. It's ok to be a beginner, too, btw. In zen buddhism, there's a concept called "beginners mind" and even the most experienced practioners strive to see things or to approach things in this way. it leads to really great growth and wisdom, and so you're actually quite blessed to be where you are right now. and as you have progressed, you have been able to maintain the appropriate attitude toward growth--the beginners mind--which is most excellent. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Nick - I have seen women just using a regular yoga belt in the same way it is shown on that site. Some for unstable SI and some for unstable hips (lower for hips) and it seems to be very helpful. Oh - the things I wish I had known about 25 years ago! | |
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Location: London, England | tourist - 2006-03-30 3:37 PM
Nick - I have seen women just using a regular yoga belt in the same way it is shown on that site. Some for unstable SI and some for unstable hips (lower for hips) and it seems to be very helpful. Oh - the things I wish I had known about 25 years ago!
Hi Tourist,
Yes, inventions like that almost make me wish I was a girl (along with the other benefits, like getting 'brazen hussy' logo'ed onto your t-shirt, and all of the other stuff). i get a good feeling from Diane Lee-she's at the top of the ladder in areas surrounding these kinds of issues. It's easy to put a fot wrong in the sacroiliac area, and she seems to hit the nail on the head. Its quite interesting how she dtermines the contribution of the multifidus and transversus abdominus muscles. I think that her work and the work of her associates has been instrumental in my understanding of how yoga can be both good and bad for us.
take care
Nick | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Good points. I should clarify that the women I have seen using them were not pregnant. Some were for post-pregnancy issues and some for menopausal issues. Placement during pregnancy would be crucial. | |
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| When you add the increase in weight, shift in center of gravity and the change in biomechanics (due to the weight--all out in front!), it is no wonder that pregnant women are prone to back pain. | |
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Member
Posts: 5
| All chiropractors are trained to work with women who are pregnant. Investing in the fertility and pregnancy wellness of women who are pregnant or trying to conceive is a routine care for most chiropractors. Chiropractic care during pregnancy can help the baby assume her optimal birthing position.
Edited by JennyKent 2011-09-19 11:30 PM
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pregnancy & chiropractic