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| How much suffering is "good" for a person? Should a person "give 'til it hurts"? Where do you draw the line between selfishness and healthy boundaries?
Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).
How does one survive in a cranky, overstimulated culture? I would love to live somewhere beautiful and serene but those places are usually very expensive (Santa Fe, San Diego, Hawaii, Colorado) and not an option at this point.
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| hey! since when is c-r-a-n-k-y a bad word? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi Fifi,
I would like to say that it would be better if no one suffered at all...but then again, yea your're right, sometimes suffering is necessary for human beings to evolve.
Having that said, I think to say how much suffering is necessary and how much should one suffer is a gauge we should have in ourselves to watch and observe very carefully. It's a very complex thing, but I do not believe we are suppose to enable people to continue with destructive behavior, we are suppose to guide others to making better choices for themselves. Sometimes that is not possible, and you may have to walk away. On the other hand, we are not suppose to sit and watch a person die either. You have to be able to gauge it and know in your mind that what you are doing is the right thing for YOU, and if necessary, you may have to be a gauge for them as well, but this is where you have to tread very carefully...I mean very carefully.
Like for instance, right now I'm in a situation with my son. He is my child and almost 21. He is very Moody, cranky and just plain arrogant about everything. He's going through some really hard times and he wants to take his anger and frustration out on me and his sister. Lately, I've just said to him, if you're gonna act that way, don't come home, stay away from me. It's all I can do, because I am not going to be held prisoner in my own home while he vents and goes off the deep end trying to resolve his issues. What I do is I send him nice packages with his favorite goodies, i.e. his Jasmine Tea and Honey, and things to eat, to make him feel loved and wanted, but at that same time, I don't let him cross over my boundaries....and I do establish my boundaries. That is all you can do.
Now, if it is someone outside of your home and say a patient or whatever...well, our job as healer's are much more...see my posting on "Anger", it is somewhat related to this. As long as the patient is not crossing a boundary, I would say continue to help that person as much as possible and what your capabilities are, but at the same time, establish your boundary and not let them get close to you in a way they can harm you. If you have reached a point where you are not of benefit to that patient, then I would simply acknowledge it and say "I've done all I can for you, but here is someone that may be able to help you." If you don't have a person in mind, then I would direct that person to Bikram Choudhury,  Does that make sense?
Oh yea, "How to survive living in an overstimulated culture?" For one thing, I just don't participate in it that type of environment, even though I may be surrounded by it and when I want to engage in it, I know how much I can handle without going over the edge. I pick and choose, not the other way around. I have gained enough insight into my life, surroundings and certain people and personalities that if I don't want to deal with them, I stay at home, close my door, shut them out, meditate, go to my favorite places alone and ignore them. I can do that. Besides, I do not owe anyone anything. It is my choice as to whether I want to respond to anything. Now, that doesn't mean that I've seperated myself from these types of people, it doesn't mean that I'm judging them, and it doesn't mean that I'm right (a goody two shoes snob) and they are wrong (low class scum of the earth's) , it just means that I'm taking care of myself and I'm happy and content with me. As for the other's, what can you do?? Probably nothing..but one day they may say to you, "How come you always seem happy, and how come you always look good and refreshed and look so young and vibrant?" Then you have an opportunity to say, "Well, I don't over extend myself, I meditate, I do yoga, I care for myself by eating properly, yadda yadda" and then you can plant the seed in their minds. But to deal with them, you just simply don't.
For what it's worth, sometimes living in the most serene places will push your buttons too, especially if it's your lesson to learn these things. I live in a very beautiful area, but there are some really scary rednecks around where I live. Actually, they are more hilarious and funny if you watch them close enough. Most people cannot handle that, but I love the area and I weighed out my choices and what I decided to tolerate and what I could manage.
Edited by Cyndi 2006-02-04 11:06 AM
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| NOW the censor thingy kicks in?!
RE successful, driven, crabass people:
I know exactly what drives this: insecurity. They push and push, but they never feel any better, so they push some more. They might feel a little better at this point, but it doesn't last. On with the pushing...
I think it comes down to how you measure success. Some people are compelled to hold themselves up to the standard of what others are doing. And those "others" are driven to stay one step ahead of the pack. This creates a never ending cycle where it's all about ambition and gain. I don't think these people feel they can stop long enough to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
If you look real close, there's a level of sadness there. If they could break the cycle, I think they would.
On the other hand, some people's idea of success doesn't depend so much on what others are achieving. They have their own goals that are driven by something else. What that is, I don't know if we can say across the board, but I doubt it's peer or culture driven.
My husband is one type (though he's coming around), I'm the other.  My hope is to someday escape to the country where maybe life moves a little slower. Until then, I try not to get sucked into it.
Edited by Kabu 2006-02-04 2:48 PM
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| Kabu -
RE successful, driven, crabass people:
I know exactly what drives this: insecurity.
Woo! That sounded a little pushy ~ sorry about that. I should have started with, "Here's my theory..." | |
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| I find the word “suffering” silly in the context of yoga. I think the word “suffering” is more relevant to describe the people who were subjected to the atrocities of death camps, victims of war or real world famine and disease. Perhaps discomfort is a more appropriate word for a Yoga class. | |
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| Thanks for everyone's input. After reading my initial post I realized I mixed 2 different topics. First, suffering. I didn't mean it in context of yoga per se, although this is yoga.com and I should probably just stick to yoga issues. But, Jambo brings up my point (sort of). For example, there are lots of people out there that don't think you're suffering if you haven't been in a concentration camp. Is the suffering at a death camp equal to that of someone suffering with a migraine?
There is no reason I am asking this except that I think of it all the time. I think of the hardships people have to go through in life. Fortunately, I've been blessed with good health and a relatively pain-free life. But, I wonder if a little "suffering" is good for a person? I think it is. I think at the very least it makes us more compassionate.
However, there seems to be a growing mindset (not of the yoga.com community) that any discomfort is completely untolerable. This is especially true in the USA and I'm afraid it's doing us in. I shouldn't make global statements but I'm going to anyway: it seems as if no one can live comfortably past 85 degrees without having to turn on the air conditioner. There must be coca-cola at lunch and dinner. It doesn't matter how broke one is, that person is going to get their nails done, buy new shoes and a Blackberry - just to look cool and fashionable. It's as if it's some horrible disease to be perceived as "uncool".
I am very fussy about my sleep. I know I must have at least 8 hours. Some of my "people" have said I am too selfcentered and lazy for thinking I can't function on 7 or 6 hours. This bugs me b/c I feel sick if I don't get enough sleep. Or, really am I being a little too much of the fussy American? Maybe my "Just Do It" mentality applies to selective activities.
The bytchy businesswomen thing is a little different. I've come to the conclusion that the money-people rule the world, not politians (although most of them are money-people, too). Fuel prices, for example, were driven up dramatically after Hurricane Katrina due to the money-people on Wall Street buying futures (stock trading term) in oil. They were buying oil shares on the speculation of scarcity in the future. So, we were all stuck paying inflated prices. (The stock market should be closed after a massive disaster).
Money-people have no compassion for the rest of the world. That lack of compassion I find especially vile and vulgar in women. Yes, I know, double standard.
I should stop writing now b/c this post is absolutely too long! | |
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| >There are stories of people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams. The difference is that most people expect you to suffer in a death camp, and to grin and bear it with a migraine. Therefore it's more socially acceptable to ***** about the camp than the head ache.
Surely you jest, for sure? Please point me to one of those stories where “people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams”. That would be a revelation or “nuts” at best.
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Expert Yogi
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| The "suffering" referred to in a yogic sense has been described as the suffering the Self feels due to not being at One with the Divine. It is not the suffering of physical pain or perceived discomforts of lacking earthly desires.
"Give until it hurts" in my understanding, is referring to the idea that it is easy to give from a place of plenty. If you have a million dollars, giving a dime to a cause is meaningless. If you have just enough to feed and house yourself plus a dime and you give that dime, it is more significant and certainly more "painful."
Don't let anyone mess with your sleep! Anyone who has ever spent any time with insomnia will tell you it is worth every minute of parties left, movies unwatched and books unread. You need to sleep well. | |
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| Orignal Post and commens with ===>: Posts: 427 How much suffering is "good" for a person? Should a person "give 'til it hurts"? Where do you draw the line between selfishness and healthy boundaries?
===> With no single exception including saints are Selfish. The problem is between correct selfishness and wrong selfishness. Correct selfishness is a)supposted to NOT consider only one's own happiness, but as far as possible (ONLY), cosider happiness of all including oneself b) supposed to lead to complete joy which comes from spiritual understanding, c) does not destroy other's happiness, and definitely one's own happiness.
Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).
===> Best is a) NOT to make any thing of such a person, if it does not affect one's own happiness b) If that is not possible, avoid that person. c) If a, b both are impossible, destroy that person.
How does one survive in a cranky, overstimulated culture? I would love to live somewhere beautiful and serene but those places are usually very expensive (Santa Fe, San Diego, Hawaii, Colorado) and not an option at this point.
===> It is not the place which is expensive, it is the person who spends more. Thus, one can easily choose a serene place which is NOT expensive. This list is not exhaustive. There are many other serene places which are not expensive. Also, even in a really expensive place, there is a way to live in a much simpler way (share house, share phone, barter work, etc.) and manage.
===> All above are not ideas, but if you come to VA, I shall show you some people, who are doing this. Now, VA is very scenic, and very expensive, as you know. And, if you see newspaper, you shall also find cranky people here. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2006-02-06 9:02 AM
Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).
===> Best is a) NOT to make any thing of such a person, if it does not affect one's own happiness b) If that is not possible, avoid that person. c) If a, b both are impossible, destroy that person.
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I am puzzled about destroying people. What do you mean? It seems very himsa.
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| Dear BG:
What I mean is: priority one: Do not give meaningful to such a person when you know that they are meaningless. priority two: Try best to avoid that person, meaning try to NOT associate with that person yourself, in all possible ways. priority three: Destroy the association in all possible ways, but if the person is purposefully not letting you do that, and is trying to destroy your practices, then you must destroy that person's association with you in whatever way it is deemed. For example, if the person is spoiling your organic orange juice by putting in poison in it, then try to dring when the person is not around or where that person is absent. But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person. That is NOT himsa, but it is your need.
Peace
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| *Fifi* -
Money-people have no compassion for the rest of the world.
To some degree I think you're right, but I don't believe it's as heartless as it sounds. They certainly appear to lack compassion. More often than not, they lack compassion for themselves, which then makes it nearly impossible for them to cultivate strong compassion for others. They're too busy forever trying to meet their own unrealistic expectations.
The rest of this thread is headed in various directions  , but this topic is the one that caught my eye, and obviously the one I feel I might have a bit of a grasp on. | |
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| Hi Kabu,
You're right, this thread is all over the place. Anyway, I've been thinking about what I wrote and to clarify I don't think there's anything wrong with having money. The money-people are the economists, the money experts - and they seem to rule the world with being able to dictate oil prices, housing prices, inflation, depression...
My real beef is that I really want to offer acupuncture services at a discounted rate for yoga instructors, etc...people that work hard, follow their heart, and don't get paid very well. I'm finding it challenging to make ends meet myself if I follow that plan. I'm really bummed out I have to focus so much on the bottom line. (And I don't live a lavish lifestyle)
This is not suffering. I don't know why I put this topic under suffering.
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| Fifi ~ I understand what you mean. If everyone who had the big bucks (and we're talking the BIG bucks) and the power really worked on cultivating true compassion for others, how different would our world look? Vastly different, I think.
Re your Real Beef:
That's a nice gesture! Without question, it sounds like your bottom line needs the focus. Don't give up on the idea though. Perhaps the discount plan is something you can do in the future when the funds are there. Until then, you're doing your community a great service by just staying in business and being available to people who need you.
The Suffering discussion is way beyond me. Worrying about paying bills and making ends meet sounds like a degree of suffering to me, but I know there's a whole idea out there about it being possible to never officially "suffer" despite harships. I'm not there yet.
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| fifi: My real beef is that I really want to offer acupuncture services at a discounted rate for yoga instructors, etc...people that work hard, follow their heart, and don't get paid very well. I'm finding it challenging to make ends meet myself if I follow that plan. I'm really bummed out I have to focus so much on the bottom line. (And I don't live a lavish lifestyle)
comment: to meet the ends meet without hard work or with less effort, so that one can give time/effort to another desired activity is possible only when activity of meeting ends is done IN the area of extreme demand. If that activity of extreme demand is out of one's principles, NOT to do it and then sacrifice the interest in the other desired activity to some extent is: Yoga Practice. But, to feel sorry for it: Is NON-yoga practice. To keep looking for an activity where meeting ends can be done without much effort is an Optimism. And, ONLY optimism can make anything possible.
Peace | |
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| >But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person.
Wow, I think you should call the police first! I think cutting the hands off a person is pretty extreme would land you in jail, and in the second case, I’m certainly with the sentiment to defend yourself at all means from physical danger, but there are some that would argue that killing is no excuse under any circumstances. We not talking ‘frontier justice’ here, are we?
We certainly are going into some dark places in this thread. What is himsa, by the way.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Jambo - 2006-02-07 1:19 PM
>But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person.
Wow, I think you should call the police first! I think cutting the hands off a person is pretty extreme would land you in jail, and in the second case, I’m certainly with the sentiment to defend yourself at all means from physical danger, but there are some that would argue that killing is no excuse under any circumstances. We not talking ‘frontier justice’ here, are we?
We certainly are going into some dark places in this thread. What is himsa, by the way.
 I would love to go back to a world where justice took care of itself naturally!! Did anyone read about the Indonesian Primitive Jungle that was just newly discovered about the size of Rhode Island?? They said the animals interacted with humans and had no fear, whatsoever. When I read that I though, OMG, that is paradise and could it still exist on the earth today?!? The reason these animals had no fear is because they lived peacefully without human interference and talk about Peaceful.
Anyway, the moral of this story is, Don't go screwing around with any Indians, Okay....especially Kshatriya's!! Police are the last people on earth to understand ahimsa and himsa because they are corrupted. Jambo, if someone were to come to my house in the country and screw around with me and my daughter?? If Yodha didn't bite them first (which I'm afraid he might NOT), then I will take measures into my own hands and it might not be so pretty if they try to pursue me in a way that may harm me or my family. There is nothing wrong with that and I am a Kshatriya too, | |
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| Fifi, do you see what your thread has ultimately led to? People are being poisoned, hands are getting cut off, and we'll soon be seeing Cyndi on the news in a stand-off with the local police.
Way to go, man.  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Don't worry about me and the police, I have the sheriff's blessings on protecting myself....I live in God's country where everybody owns a protective device of somekind, | |
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| Yeeha….to all ya’ pistol packin’ yogis. I think I better start bringing a revolver to my Yoga class. Maybe y’all like to saddle up to the bar for a pranayama or two…..and not a decent lawman to be found…Thanks for the great idea for a new studio, “Frontier Yoga”, “We don’t practice in the heat, we pack it!” | |
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| I'm in!!!
Is this thing going to be hand-to-hand, or are we having a huge, running gun fight?
Edited by Kabu 2006-02-07 5:28 PM
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| Not much hand to hand. Not too many hands left with all those people imbibing on orange juice. This is more a counter to Bikrum Yoga; he may have “atomic balls” but we’ll have the superior fire power.
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| GJ: Swing looks like hard work (and plenty fun)!
In hand-to-hand, you'd only be in danger if you let me get in the first strike or forget to guard your groin. Otherwise you'd probably be able to hurt me something fierce. I have zero martial arts experience, and I'm only in Level 1 Krav (which means I still freeze when someone makes a scary face and comes at me ).
Plus I tend to block a lot of punches with my face.  It's okay at 20% power with padded gloves. 100% power and a bare fist would put me in a coma. | |
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| Yeah...yeeeeaaaah...*gets all shifty-eyed...I'm psychin' you out...that's it.
You have more yellow belts than I'll ever have. My previous description of my ability is pretty accurate. To prove it, the hubby jumped out and surprised me a couple of weeks ago (we have this weird Clouseau/Cato relationship..."Not NOW you fool!" ), wrapping his hands around my neck, growling.
I freaked. Totally froze. Forgot EVERYTHING I learned instantly.
It took me about 8 seconds to recover and pluck his hands off my neck. I also missed the groin shot/elbow combo in that move. He tried to make me feel better by telling me that he knew all my moves, and a normal attacker wouldn't have been ready for that, but I think he was just being nice.
I got the upper hand on him once, but he wasn't expecting it and thus was totally open. I'm dangerous if you're distracted. | |
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| I've heard of that becoming an issue ~ that's a common discussion among Krav students (guys usually).
NOT a danger with me though. We joke about my "cat-like" reflexes. One of my training partners once said, "Geez, I punch and you don't even blink." It LOOKS like I'm just not intimidated (which by itself is kinda cool), but really...my brain isn't fully registering the threat.
Last week, Tom threw a jab at me, and I managed to duck back. So there's *some* progress. I couldn't deliver a return punch, but at least I got out of the way. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | Jambo - 2006-02-05 4:20 PM
>There are stories of people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams. The difference is that most people expect you to suffer in a death camp, and to grin and bear it with a migraine. Therefore it's more socially acceptable to ***** about the camp than the head ache.
Surely you jest, for sure? Please point me to one of those stories where “people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams”. That would be a revelation or “nuts” at best.
Happy as clams?! How happy are clams that are about to be steamed?! I definitely understand how people that accept their situation and "grin and bear it" are better off (and more likely to survive) than those who wallow in misery, but "happy as clams"?
I too would like you to cite your sources.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-23 9:12 PM
JackieCat - 2006-02-23 4:05 PM
Happy as clams?! How happy are clams that are about to be steamed?! I definitely understand how people that accept their situation and "grin and bear it" are better off (and more likely to survive) than those who wallow in misery, but "happy as clams"?
I too would like you to cite your sources.
Sorry, I can't do that. I vaguely recall hearing this on the history channel or something.
Not surprised . . .
That was a pretty irresponsible comment, IMO. | |
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| This is a very interesting convseration you two have going. I don't know if this is totally off track but I am fascinated with the "Stockholm Syndrome".
Preface: I am not judging here, just using uncomplicated language -
To me, S & M is way too far out of my understanding and comfort zone, but I there are times when I feel comfortable as the "happy as clam" prisoner. I've never been a tortured prisoner but I have caught myself being very content in an icky situation.
I have a weird interest in Marilyn Manson. I don't like his music but I saw an interview with him (VH1 or MTV) a few years back and he seemed really intelligent. Then I heard him on interviewed on Howard Stern and he seemed like a twisted jerk. But, nonetheless, I am intrigued with him and his unsual look. He's creative and interesting but represents darkness. Maybe it's his schtick, the way Marilyn Monroe was supposed to be really intelligent but she just played dumb in order for advancement in her career.
Not that this would ever happen but if I were single and MM asked me out I would go on a date with him. I think it would be interesting and part of my intrigue is that I feel like dating MM is synonymous to the Stockholm Syndrome. Does that make sense? But, alas, I just purchased the latest issue of Vogue magazine and it had a spread of MM's and DVT's beautiful wedding. Plus, my boyfriend would be very upset.
It's all a boundary issue. Who is the aggressor and who is the aggressee?
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | *Fifi* - 2006-02-25 12:01 PM
I have a weird interest in Marilyn Manson. I don't like his music but I saw an interview with him (VH1 or MTV) a few years back and he seemed really intelligent. Then I heard him on interviewed on Howard Stern and he seemed like a twisted jerk. But, nonetheless, I am intrigued with him and his unsual look. He's creative and interesting but represents darkness. Maybe it's his schtick, the way Marilyn Monroe was supposed to be really intelligent but she just played dumb in order for advancement in her career.
Not that this would ever happen but if I were single and MM asked me out I would go on a date with him. I think it would be interesting and part of my intrigue is that I feel like dating MM is synonymous to the Stockholm Syndrome. Does that make sense? But, alas, I just purchased the latest issue of Vogue magazine and it had a spread of MM's and DVT's beautiful wedding. Plus, my boyfriend would be very upset.
It's all a boundary issue. Who is the aggressor and who is the aggressee?
The Stockholm syndrome is the identification of the victim with the oppressor, right? The most famous example that I can think of right now is Patricia Hearst's identification with and collaboration with her captors when she was kidnapped. So I think that your attraction to Marilyn Manson is less Stockholm syndrome than it is an attraction to the "dark side".
Have you ever seen the movie "The Night Porter"? It's all about that boundary between aggressor/agressee . . . Dirk Bogarde plays a former concentration camp guard who had a relationship in the camps with a prisoner (Charlotte Rampling) . . . they meet by chance years later and renew their "relationship." It's super twisted (in a good way!) | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-25 10:01 AM
JackieCat - 2006-02-25 7:02 AM
Not surprised . . .
That was a pretty irresponsible comment, IMO.
Not sure why, the point was that it IS possible to be happy regardless of the circumstances. Personally I find this very reassuring. If it's that important I'll see if I get dig something up. For that matter I could tell the stories one of the Vietnam POWs related on the history channel if it helps.
I guess that I had issue with the "happy as clams" analogy. It's one thing to be accepting on your circumstances and to make the most them, but, to me, "happy as a clam" implies the joyful abandon kind of happiness. I have to think (and from what I've read, it's confirmed) that was pretty rare.
However,in the book "Human Behavior In the Concentration Camp", the author Elie Cohen (a Dutch doctor who was a prisoner at Auschwitz) says that joke telling and laughter was not uncommon there. Kind of a "laugh or cry" thing. So there was laughter and probably even moment of joy. But happy as clams? | |
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| Thanks, I'll have to check out "The Night Porter".
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| Viktor Frankel's account of his years in the concentration camps is pretty inspiring and how his therapy grew out of that experience. Tons of stuff on the web if you are interested. I did run across an article about a person who joke and laugh to ease the suffering of the other prisoners, but can't seem to locate it now. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Laughter or tears - so true. My mother and her husband belonged to a close group of friends who spent a lot of time golfing together. One of the others died not long before my mom and a few months later someone else died unexpectedly. Mom's DH had become very ill and was diagnosed with cancer. One day he was reflecting on all the losses in their group and said "Huh - we're dying in order of our golf handicaps!" | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-25 8:27 PM
They're literally striped of a lot of the BS that most of us feed ourselves on a daily basis. A lot of this has to do with the myth that we're going to live forever. So when you're in a situation where it's pretty obvious and in your face that you're looking death right in the eye it can be an opportunity for growth, and incredible potential. It's a bit like burning your boats/bridges behind you, it's now or never, and there's no turning back. After all a lot of what makes us unhappy is ego.
I wish I had my "Human Behavior In the Concentration Camps" book (I lent it to my brother awhile ago) . . . it's a very cool book in that the author very systematically and dispassionately discusses all aspects of behavior in the camps. I recall a section that dealt with exactly what you're talking about above- that there was a distinct lack of neurotic behavior or, for lack of a better word, ego driven behavior (i.e., worrying that you're not cute enough or that you don't live up to a particular ideal of beauty), because people were confronted with life or death situations every day. | |
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| GreenJello - 2006-02-25 8:27 PM
It's a bit like burning your boats/bridges behind you, it's now or never, and there's no turning back. After all a lot of what makes us unhappy is ego. The feeling that what I have isn't enough, that I need more, etc.
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Can you imagine if we lived like that? Just thinking about it gives me a happy-nervous energy.
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Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
I was just reading a very ineresting book called 'the truth about stress' by Angela Patmore. It challenges the notion that 'stress' is bad for us, and calls into question the aims of therapists, counsellors and healers who have based their work on the research of a scientist called Hans Selye. He tortured rats and then applied what he found to humans. Angela points out that the demands of life are actually good for us-people who feel useful live longer. Yoga itself is a stress that, if we have a good practice, helps us to feel 'whole.'
The suffering that was encountered by concentration camp inmates would have been made unendurable by the utter hopelessness of their situation. like the rats in Selye's experiments, they would have resigned themselves to their fate. It is resignation, not stress per se, that is responsible for ill-health. I guess the answer is to avoid situations or a mind-set where you resign yourself to your fate. Easier said than done!!
It seems that the west's preoccupation with stress is actually killing its citizens-more and more people are taking time off work because of stress, more and more people are taking medication to combat stress. Perhaps if we learnt to cope better, to shrug off people and situations which lead to a dead end, we would perhaps be fulfilled by the challenges of our lives, rather than frustrated by them.
Take care
Nick | |
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| Yes! That's a great point. I'm going to think about that some more and come back later - bye | |
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| Great point, Nick. I believe Selye said things to that effect as well. If we don't stress ourselves we don't grow. I don't believe life has become more stressful (imagine life 100 years ago where your children might die of any number of diseases and if the crops failed you starved!), but that we have become less adept at dealing with it. | |
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Location: A Blue State | I've been sort of ignoring this thread b/c it has all the discussion
of concentration camps. I know people who were in those camps,
and I've never really found it a very light subject. So I just haven't
read those parts of this thread.
On stress, you need a certain amount of it just to keep sharp and
to find your life stimulating. Too much of it over a sustained period
of time can overwhelm our abilities to cope. There've been plenty
of medical studies to show directl correlations of stress-related
hormones (cortisol, eg) with miscellaneous disease-related conditions.
My favorite is the one that shows that too much cortisol makes the
hippocampus shrink, that being the part of the brain associated with
memory. So I think of all those stressed-out academics who wind up
destroying their own seed-corn.
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Location: London, England | Bay Guy - 2006-03-01 3:58 AM
I've been sort of ignoring this thread b/c it has all the discussion
of concentration camps. I know people who were in those camps,
and I've never really found it a very light subject. So I just haven't
read those parts of this thread.
On stress, you need a certain amount of it just to keep sharp and
to find your life stimulating. Too much of it over a sustained period
of time can overwhelm our abilities to cope. There've been plenty
of medical studies to show directl correlations of stress-related
hormones (cortisol, eg) with miscellaneous disease-related conditions.
My favorite is the one that shows that too much cortisol makes the
hippocampus shrink, that being the part of the brain associated with
memory. So I think of all those stressed-out academics who wind up
destroying their own seed-corn.
Hi Bay Guy,
I'm the same-my Polish father's family (catholic) were executed or put in labour camps for being in the resistance and for hiding jewish people. It means I've never seen films like schindler's list-even writing the name of the film twists my insides. As john belushi says inthe blues brothers-'I hate nazis.' i never understood why the film-makers let all the nazis jump in the river rather than get run over at high speed, but it's an excellent sentiment, nonetheless!
The book i was talking about goes into the whole cortisol question, and once again it seems that research has been manipulated by the stress industry, or has been made dubious by using animals, which are nothing like humans, and torturing them incessently, which is nothing like the demands most people face in their lives.
part of the problem in defining stress appears to be that it is an engineering concept which can be applied successfully to machines, but not so successfully to the human mind. Stress refers to the pressure or tension per unit area, which causes compression or elongation (strain). it is not possible to use this model to describe the effects of a challenge on the human mind.
Apparently, because of Selye's poor english, he mixed up the words 'stress' and 'strain.'
This led to one critic wondering how"stress, in addition to being itself, and the result of itself, is also the cause of itself."
Here's a good quote which sums it up "a man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears."
Take care
Nick | |
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| I empathise with the scientists and philosophers who may do some testing or even just offer an idea (another example is the guys who talked about infant "bonding" with parents) and put it out to the world for consideration and then have the media and all of us sound bite junkies go crazy with it. I've heard people moan about their stress level over their finances who take out a loan they can't afford for a tropical holiday to relieve the stress! And I'll bet they are some of the same people who come to the boards and complain that they'd love to do yoga but "can't afford" yoga classes... Hmmmm....cranky already and I did have my coffee.... better have just one more | |
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| I believe we all have our suffering quota. I think we're supposed to have some level of physical, emotional and psychological discomfort. It's funny to me to watch some people go to great lenghts to avoid "suffering" in their lives. There are actually people that work very hard to get their unemployment (think George Costanza of Seinfeld). Then these people get double dose of discomfort or aggravation just for trying to avoid it.
I can't even comprehend the magnitude of suffering of a prisoner of war or a person who's been in concentration camp. Even just writing that sentence makes me grateful for my life.
This has been an interesting thread. I wish we could all meet in an independently-owned (read: no starbucks) dimly lit coffe shop somewhere in the world and continue this conversation in person.
Nick - do they have Seinfeld in England? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
We certainly do have Seinfeld-I only watch television about one hour a month so I've never seen it. I think we only had black and white last time I watched anything!
Take care
Nick
p.s. I know some really nice coffee shops in Holland, they sell all kinds of blends ! | |
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Location: New York | I love Starbucks! | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Okay Fifi,
While going through my mailbox this morning, I found my weekly Dharma Quote from HH Dalai Lama. It had this thread written all over it. So, I decided to post it here for interesting reading. I hope you like it.
Question: Could you please say something on the three kinds of suffering?
His Holiness The Dalai Lama: One kind of suffering is like a headache or like yesterday's flu: discomfort in the nose, watery eyes, and so forth. In short, it includes all of those kinds of gross physical and mental sufferings that in ordinary parlance we usually call "suffering." This is the first category.
Then the second category is as follows. When we feel hungry and begin to take food, at first we feel very happy. We take one mouthful, then two, three, four, five... eventually, though it is the same person, the same food, and the same time period, we begin to find the food objectionable and reject it. This is what is meant by the "suffering of change." Practically every worldly happiness and pleasure is in this second category. Compared to other forms of suffering, at the beginning these more subtle forms of suffering seem pleasurable; they seem to afford us some happiness, but this is not true or lasting happiness, for the more we become acquainted with them, the more involved we become with them, the more suffering and trouble they bring us. That is the second category.
Now as for the third category, I think it is fair to say that it is one's own body. Roughly speaking, this is what it is. It is the body which is the fruit of afflictions, a body originally created by afflictions. Because the body is created by such causes, it is of the very nature of suffering. It comes to act as the basis of suffering. This, then, is the third category.
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Location: A Blue State | Nick - 2006-03-01 3:23 AM
part of the problem in defining stress appears to be that it is an engineering concept which can be applied successfully to machines, but not so successfully to the human mind. Stress refers to the pressure or tension per unit area, which causes compression or elongation (strain ). it is not possible to use this model to describe the effects of a challenge on the human mind.
Apparently, because of Selye's poor english, he mixed up the words 'stress' and 'strain.'
This led to one critic wondering how"stress, in addition to being itself, and the result of itself, is also the cause of itself."
Take care
Nick
It's even worse --- stress is a second-rank tensor.
But I always smile when people say "the stress is apparent on his face" or something
like that, when that which is visible is, of course, the strain!
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Location: London, England | Hi Bay guy,
Ha! I think you just summed up the whole book in one snetence: "But I always smile when people say "the stress is apparent on his face" or something
like that, when that which is visible is, of course, the strain!"
Say this in a thousand different ways, and you've got yourself a self-help book-make millions!!
Take care
Nick | |
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| Cyndi,
Thanks for that. Can you elaborate on #2, please? I'm not quite sure it get it. The way I read #2 is that we suffer when we lose our gratitide (for having food, a roof over our heads)
Nick, I've always wanted to go to Holland. Tulips are my favorite flower. I really need to get over to Europe. The last time I went I was 12! {I'm sure there's lots of mojo in those blends} | |
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| >Fifi - This has been an interesting thread. I wish we could all meet in an independently-owned (read: no starbucks) dimly lit coffe shop somewhere in the world and continue this conversation in person.
Wouldn't that be something! Just a bunch of Yogi roustabouts hanging together shooting the yogic sh!t in the local coffeehouse or Pub. Anybody got a scene like that? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jambo,
I used to have a class where some of the students and me would retire to the local bar and drink black sheep ale-as some of you know, a hard class makes for a better tomorrow, and the beer tastes better at the end of the day!!
I'm not sure, though, if drinking beer after a class is a recommended practice-maybe i could promote and the new improved finishing sequence of Astanga yoga-for those left standing, one last challenge!
Take care
Nick | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | *Fifi* - 2006-03-02 11:04 AM
Cyndi,
Thanks for that. Can you elaborate on #2, please? I'm not quite sure it get it. The way I read #2 is that we suffer when we lose our gratitide (for having food, a roof over our heads)
Nick, I've always wanted to go to Holland. Tulips are my favorite flower. I really need to get over to Europe. The last time I went I was 12! {I'm sure there's lots of mojo in those blends}
Hey Fifi,
I wish I could get a truckload of those Tulips right now in time for spring!!!!!
I see #2 totally differently. I see it as we as sentient human beings take the food or whatever, objects of pleasure, and we eat or take it thinking this is going to make us happy. (you can also use the garden of eden as an example - Adam taking the Apple). We continue to eat the food two, three or four times and then discover that our happiness does not lie in the food (we do this UN-conscienciously sp?), then we reject the food because we *think* the food is causing our unhappiness, rather than the *true* nature of our unhappiness which is ignorance. At this stage we have not developed a sense of awareness until we have embraced it, gotten acquainted with it, and therefore we start to become familiar with it and then noticed and/or witnessed just how much trouble these external worldly pleasures and things bring us.....this is the crucial point of self discovery, I like to think of it as a *window opportunity*. When we realize that the external world cannot bring happiness, this is a *true* awakening and this is when meditation and contemplation is critical..otherwise we fall into so many traps and we start to go into survival mode and grasping at straws begins. This is also a form of attachment as well.
Here is the HH Dalai Lama's quote again:
"Then the second category is as follows. When we feel hungry and begin to take food, at first we feel very happy. We take one mouthful, then two, three, four, five... eventually, though it is the same person, the same food, and the same time period, we begin to find the food objectionable and reject it. This is what is meant by the "suffering of change." Practically every worldly happiness and pleasure is in this second category. Compared to other forms of suffering, at the beginning these more subtle forms of suffering seem pleasurable; they seem to afford us some happiness, but this is not true or lasting happiness, for the more we become acquainted with them, the more involved we become with them, the more suffering and trouble they bring us. That is the second category."
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Jambo - 2006-03-02 7:42 PM
>Fifi - This has been an interesting thread. I wish we could all meet in an independently-owned (read: no starbucks) dimly lit coffe shop somewhere in the world and continue this conversation in person.
Wouldn't that be something! Just a bunch of Yogi roustabouts hanging together shooting the yogic sh!t in the local coffeehouse or Pub. Anybody got a scene like that?
I wish you guys would come to Asheville. There is a nice Starbucks just around the corner from the Biltmore House...we could meet there after having a nice stroll through the mansion and after the Wine Tasting, If you can't deal with Starbucks...there's other places to hang out too!! We could take our party to the Blue Ridge Parkway and have an outdoor Yoga Jamboree, | |
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| Cyndi - My parents used to live in Hendersonville. Went to Asheville a couple of times to see if I could live there, Hendersonville being too small for my tastes. Was way before my Yoga life. Wondering what the Yoga scene is like there now. As my parents used to say, NC is God’s country. Truly beautiful country around the Asheville area. | |
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| i think that is a wonderfully useful quote by the Dalai Lama, thank you for posting it! If only i could remember those jewels of knowledge when i need to. 
starbucks is obnoxiously "in your face" in many cities, but you can get some pretty good joe there- i have a bag of their Ethiopia Sidamo now..soo delicious! They also try to treat their employees, partners and the environment reasonably well. especially in comparison to say, Walmart! | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Jambo - 2006-03-03 7:38 PM
Cyndi - My parents used to live in Hendersonville. Went to Asheville a couple of times to see if I could live there, Hendersonville being too small for my tastes. Was way before my Yoga life. Wondering what the Yoga scene is like there now. As my parents used to say, NC is God’s country. Truly beautiful country around the Asheville area.
OMG!! When I was 15 years old, back in the late 70's, actually almost 1980, I went to Hendersonville to visit an old friend of my Mother's. My Mother let me and my sister take her car out on a Saturday night...big mistake. We ended up at the Drive-in theatre watching an x-rated movie..it was hilarious. My baby sister who was so straight and narrow about died from embarrassment - we didn't understand the XXX part until the movie started, it was the midnite showing, Anyway, it ended up that we met these 2 cute guys close to our age, went to a lake nearby and got stoned - best pot I ever smoked and it was *truly* organic. The next day I drove back home to ATL, on the way in the town outside of Hendersonville, I got a speeding ticket going 83 MPH in a 55 zone. My Mother was asleep in the back seat (she was suppose to be in the front). The cop hauled us to jail, then he had to run down to the nearby church to get the judge so he could free us. It was so funny..my very first speeding ticket. Do you know the reason I was going 83 MPH was because my Mother bought this brand new 1980 Mercury Cougar. It was a beautiful car and it was one of the first cars with the Digital Speedometer. It only went to 83 MPH so that is where I kept my traveling speed. Funny huh??
Speaking of speeding, I just got another speeding ticket today. It was funny, me and my Nepali friend were on our way to Asheville today. I decided to pass this car and the cop came up unexpectedly on the other side before I could slow back down again - Like WTF was he doing coming out of the National Forest, he should of been out chasing REAL criminals, My friend and I had just put tika on ourselves before we left the house, so I had it on my forehead. The cop was so freaked out by me, Oh well. I borderlined giving him a piece of my mind and how I didn't appreciate him ruining my perfect driving record. Then he proceeded to tell me how I could save myself by appearing in court to reduce the points.....wasn't that sweet of him,
Yepper, NC Rocks and it is God's Country..., | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Cyndi,
I was once thrown in jail overnight for illegal substances (few tabs of acid) and about 10 years later one of the cops turned up in my yoga class-he didn't recognize me, but I'm sure he must have felt my eyes turning to slits and the deep rumble from my chest!
Did he get stretched! Not often I get beginners to try to stuff their legs behind their heads. Sounds like the cop who got you was trying the good cop/bad cop routine by himself, and got a bit confused
Take care
Nick | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Once my wife finishes nursing school we were talking about moving to Asheville. We lived in Charlotte for a short time and she fell in love with NC while we were there.
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| From Suffering to God's country, you got to love how these threads evolve. | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Jambo - 2006-03-04 7:10 AM
From Suffering to God's country, you got to love how these threads evolve.
I am suffering because I'm not there yet.............. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Jambo - 2006-03-04 7:10 AM
From Suffering to God's country, you got to love how these threads evolve.
Well, to make my post thread related, sorry Fifi, I hi-jacked I think??, That cop really wanted me to suffer, in fact I COULD have let it ruin my entire day. After we pulled away me and my friend just busted out laughing and I said F' it, I'll go to court and spend a half a day getting my points reduced. Besides, it's a old historical place that I'm sure will just turn into another adventure for me and those little old ladies that work in the clerk's office are just as sweet as pie. If you talk to them nicely, they'll do anything for you,
Nick, that's funny. Cops need something like YOGA. I think Iron John Yoga is appropriate for them, I don't think they have a heart and they are so frigid, rigid and cold. Talk about closed up Chakra's and sticks up their butts! It's actually kinda creepy...and they act like they own the highways and the entire friggin world, it's so militant. He also cited me for not wearing my seatbelt. I actually put it on before he had time to stop me...and like how could he really see that I wasn't wearing it coming from the other direction?? My word against his and his will win of course in the courtroom. Oh well, and no I don't wear seatbelts and I don't like being told what to do. I know they *think* they are saving your life or something, but my philosophy is that just because bad accidents have happened to people in vehicles (which most cops are freaked out about and live in a state of fear) doesn't mean it will happen to everyone!! To me that is Suffering...on their part. I feel sorry for them that they can't be *real* people instead of *stone cold* robots living in a fear...remember Robo Cop?? I see that day coming and talk about wierd. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Cyndi,
Good luck with your courtcase, if it all goes badly, you can knit us all woolly yoga shorts and we'll send you parcels. i can't really work out how anyone can be a policeman and hold their head high-the corruption in England seems to be endemic in some parts of the police force. How about yoga mats with prison arrows?
Take care
Nick | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Thanks Nick....but don't be expecting any knitting projects from me, I pretty much suck in the knitting department, but I can repair ya'll's favorite *holy* ones,
No, there won't be a courtcase, here in America you can just go to your scheduled court date, sweet talk the solicitor and make a deal..most of the time it's smooth sailing....most of the time,
Yoga mats with prison arrows?? Okay, sounds interesting. I've heard that prisoner's make great yoga practictioners. One of my favorite pictures of a guru from India is with him embracing a prisoner..it just makes my heart melt. Take care,
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| Apparently cops make excellent yoga students. Our local force had yoga as part of their fitness program (maybe still does) and I heard from the teachers that because they are trained to observe carefully and take orders, they actually do very well. They should make it mandatory | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Wait a minute GJ, I thought that was one of the Beatles?? Can't remember which one, maybe George or Paul. It's interesting though.
Tourist, I wish we were back in the Andy Griffith days, but more evolved of course than back then...that to me would be very cool.
Cyndi - who takes a bow to the late Barney Fife, who just passed away. aka Don Knotts, what a cool guy,
Edited by Cyndi 2006-03-04 5:29 PM
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| Cyndi - I wasn't asserting that you hijack. I'm the one, I've noticed, that just blurts unrelated things out and I'm trying to be more considerate.
GJ - I saw that movie. Have you seen, "Doing Time, Doing Vipassana"? It's a documentary about a prison in India where the head of the prison (a woman!) decided to bring in Vipassana meditation into her rough and overcrowded prison. By the way, many of the 10,000 prisoners had been in the prison for years just waiting for their trial. The result is unbelievable.
Has anyone ever noticed that the word 'meditation' is very close to the word 'medication'? | |
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| MEDITATION comes from the latin word "mederi" that means HEALING
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Suffering