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| I think a great revelation that happens in the practice of yoga asana is the uncovering of the subtle aspects of ego. I feel myself utilise ego to practice challenging asanas and to hold postures longer, but often reflect how to release ego in my practice. Ego manifests in many ways, when I am in classes I find myself trying to hold a posture longer than the person next to me. At times this has been a worthy practice as I have uncovered something which before I was unaware of, and perhaps wouldn't have uncovered if I allowed myself to release in my own timing.
One of the best experiences I had in asana practice was holding adho mukha svanasana for 8 minutes. This came about before a class, my friend and I were holding dog pose for about 3 minutes when our teacher came up to us with an alarm clock set for 5 minutes and jokingly remarked, hold for another 5 minutes. Immediately I felt ego kick in to accept the challenge. It was interesting to watch throughout those 8 minutes the interaction between ego trying to keep me there and then the release of ego and the observation of sensations throughout my body. I also could really feel the areas where awareness was dull as pain crept into them. After releasing from the pose I felt light and could feel that ego was gratified.
So I guess one of the most challenging aspects of asana practice is utilising the ego without being attached to it, far more difficult than the most challenging asana.
I was wondering how does everyone here keep a check on ego in their asana practice. | |
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| i always like it when the ego argues with itself:
ego: i can hold this posture for 8 minutes, no problem!
ego: but i don't know if i want to!
ego: you want to!
ego: i don't know if i do, i mean, i might break the arms!
ego: you won't break the arms! it'll be over before you know it anyway.
ego: yeah, what were we talking about?
ego: doing the pose for 8 minutes.
ego: which pose?
ego: this pose you're doing now.
ego: i'm not doing a pose now, i'm breaking the arms.
ego: you're not breaking the arms.
ego: oh yes i am! unless i come out of this pose!
ego: you're going to do this pose for eight minutes.
ego: like hell i am. i'm breaking the arms. i need to come out. Lets send out the urgent-anxiety hormone.
ego: sure, whatever, but we're doing this pose for 8 minutes.
ego: that's impossible!
ego: no it's not!
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this has been a recreation of zoebird's brain on yoga. | |
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| teeeheee it was alot like that. 
though with moments of quiet reflection.
Those fluctuations of the mind can be amusing/ irratating at the same time. Many of my practises lately I can hear the unrelenting chatter inside my mind. Oh well more practice less attachement.
Edited by damien 2005-12-20 9:40 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | Okay, so try this to keep your ego in check:
If the person next to you is struggling with Baddha Konasana, do not
sit there doing the full version of the pose. Do something completely
different.
If others around you are struggling to do intermediate poses, ask yourself
whether you are doing advanced poses in front of them for the sake of your
ego. Try doing a pose that you really suck at, and see if you find it embarassing.
Don't do the advanced pose unless it is a direct element of you practice and
you can do it without feeling "superior".
And after you've done that for a while, see if you appreciate the difference
between displaying your ability and simply doing your yoga.
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| I agree with bay guy. A lot of this stuff comes easily, so often the best ego busting I can do on the mat is go into child pose, or take a less challenging version of the posture. Sometimes the "less" challenging postures are actually more challenging, but in different ways. For example, in tree it's possible to put your foot into your leg, or to put it into half-lotus, and bend over. At the local studio they teach putting your foot into your leg to the beginners and offer the other version to the more advanced people. I've been doing the former much more, which helps me work on balance which I struggle with. Putting my foot into half-lotus is much more of an ego-trip I think.
I also had some issues with one of the local teachers who used to give me more attention that the other students, and hold me up as an example. This was confidence boosting for a while, but it also fed my ego to the point that I asked her to stop doing it.
Is it really possible to stop the ego so long as the internal dialogue persists? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I've stopped going to some places when there's too much
"now look at bay guy if you'd like to see the full pose".
I don't like the jealousy that it inspires, and I don't like
the associated egoism and performance pressure. | |
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| Great point, Damien, about how despite our struggle to release the ego during practice on and off the mat it is sometimes this which takes us to the next level. Just goes to remind us that nothing is all good or all bad. | |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-12-20 9:23 PM
I've stopped going to some places when there's too much
"now look at bay guy if you'd like to see the full pose".
I don't like the jealousy that it inspires, and I don't like
the associated egoism and performance pressure.
i remember when i first started practicing, i would marvel at the students being held up as examples. now as one of those students, i find it to be slightly embarrassing.
ego is something i struggle with a lot sometimes. just have to keep telling myself its not a competition and remain focused on my own practice. and anyways, it sucks when you're focused on someone else when you're supposed to be just doing yoga...
practicing on my own as opposed to taking classes has really helped me deal with this. you really learn what you need to do for your own benefit, as opposed to what you might do to show off for that cute girl standing two rows back...
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| i mean, look at that post i just made...
all i did was talk about myself 
Edited by dhanurasana 2005-12-21 12:54 AM
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| LoraB - 2005-12-22 3:40 PM
Great point, Damien, about how despite our struggle to release the ego during practice on and off the mat it is sometimes this which takes us to the next level. Just goes to remind us that nothing is all good or all bad.
Thanks. I used to think that ego is a bad thing but closer inspection has taught me that ego is a great tool when utilised with proper understanding.
bad guy
Okay, so try this to keep your ego in check:
If the person next to you is struggling with Baddha Konasana, do not
sit there doing the full version of the pose. Do something completely
different.
If others around you are struggling to do intermediate poses, ask yourself
whether you are doing advanced poses in front of them for the sake of your
ego. Try doing a pose that you really suck at, and see if you find it embarassing.
Don't do the advanced pose unless it is a direct element of you practice and
you can do it without feeling "superior".
And after you've done that for a while, see if you appreciate the difference
between displaying your ability and simply doing your yoga.
Sound advice bad guy, my terribly tight hamstrings should keep me humble 
Edited by damien 2005-12-21 2:52 AM
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| Bay Guy - 2005-12-20 10:23 PM
I've stopped going to some places when there's too much
"now look at bay guy if you'd like to see the full pose".
I don't like the jealousy that it inspires, and I don't like
the associated egoism and performance pressure.
Agreed. That was my response to. The teacher had some other problems as well, and when she didn't address this one after I spoke to her about it, I left. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| I suppose one of the benefits of Iyengar is that there is never a "perfect" pose. Most often we will have 2 or 3 students pulled out to demo and the teacher goes down the line and tells us the area where each student needs to work more in the pose. And this is virtually never done in beginner classes, rarely done in Level II, so it is "mature" students who are both demo-ing and being given instruction, making it more likely that ego won't be a problem (not impssible, just more likely  ) Even when the demo looks beautiful, there are usually ways to improve to the "BKS" level. | |
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| I do not think there is any problem in one striving to do a better pose within one's capacity, that is without injuring oneself. Whether it has anything to do with others doing a better or worse performance should not be any issue. Also, if one looks at another person who is doing a worse pose (whether in appearance or real), one can not but have to accept the fact that his/her pose is better. Same, with another person doing a better pose than one. It has NOTHING to do with Ego.
Actually, Ego can not be avoided at all until one is in Spiritually Realized state. When ego disappears, it is synonymous with Spiritual Realization.
What is bad is Egotism. That is more importance is given to ME or I than the actual performance.
The real definiton of Ego is: Assumption that one is doing things when one is actually NOT.
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| i find that this is the case in my classes as well. when i teach, i often demonstrate. i point out my own problems in the posture, directing orally how htings 'should' go directionally. i also say 'ok, try this. and then if you feel comfortable, open into this. and if you feel comfortable, then we can go here.'
and i'll stop where ever the last person in the class stops. then, i'll usually crack a joke about it--like "can't get there. oh well, maybe tomorrow!'
as to my own practice, i tend to practice modified in the classroom setting to avoid adjustments. many of the teachers in this area will heavy-hand me knowing that i'm a teacher and that i have a lot of ability to 'go deeper' into poses. But, they don't know that i'm nursing a few things in a few areas so i'll heavily modify postures where i know they'll want to take my farther than i want to go that day.
it's a rare day when i go 100% toward completing a pose (or however you want to describe it) in class. i'll usually go farther into a pose on my own at home, and then ask the teacher before/after class if he/she has any suggestions on how to better enter the posture or work on an opening that i may need to help develop the posture. Similarly, i may stay in the studio after class for a little extra practice of my own. usually, no one is in the room at the time, except the person who comes in to sweep the floor.
i just find that classroom settings are great for going deeper into breath, concentration, and allowing someone else to lead the movement (such as sequencing). The asana is usually secondary to me. and particularly if it's one that i'm nursing a bit. | |
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| I think neel has the right of it, but I feel the need to give some more details.
I was originally the only person being singled out, often several times in a session. Part of the problem was that she has a problem with remembering people's names. We also get along very well, and I've been coming for some time, so she feels more comfortable with me than some of the other students.
Anyway, she also has a serious background as a professional ballernia, which I think has caused some egotism problems for her. In some ways I feel that I was being put in a similar position to the one that caused her own problems. I was pushed forward to be the center of attention.
Since I didn't want to develop this level of arrogance and egotism I decided to go to another class. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Right on Neelbhai...great definition of the EGO.
What you guys are discussing is not really about the EGO, you are discussing COMPETITIVENESS, which is only a mere aspect of the EGO.
So, now that we have cleared that up...I'm not really as great of a Chef as I thought I was...someone is always going to come along and knock me off my throne, and bake a better cake than mine, | |
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| i also found this dynamic with former ballerina's/dancers in my classes. one person would always be talking about who got called out in class to demo a pose, would position themselves next to others who they thought were at the "top of the class" and would either get all shiny and happy after being chosen to demo a pose, or when not chose, be talking like, "oh, no, i'm not as good as so and so" not saying all dancers are like this, because i also know some who left that competitiveness behind, even though they have strong practices. i have heard a little about how they treat child dancers and it sounds like sometimes it can be really terrible. Best, | |
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| Actually, competition also is NOT a problem as follows:
- Those who want to compete should look for those who have better performance, like BKS quoted by sister Tourist.
- And, they should do their competition, without making it injury.
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| My teacher does not usually hold a student up as an example, but on Monday we were doing supta virasana and she could not get all the way down, so she mentioned me because I was down ("Look at Laura, she's flat"). Then another student said "Yeah I am beginning to wonder if she has any bones." It was a small exchange & not important in any way, but I noticed that it both pleased & embarrassed me & just generally trashed my focus for awhile. Exactly as Damien says ... it was a revelation to me that I reacted so strongly. | |
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| This is a very fascinating discussion! Thanks to Damien for starting it!
I find the same inner ego dialogue when I am practicing on my own, and more when I am taking a group class. It is interesting to me that as soon as one of the voices says "You know, this is YOUR practice, you don't HAVE TO do anything" is when I relax into the pose and enjoy it, like I could hold it just forever and ever.
I don't think the ego can be stopped, or that it needs to be. When we can learn to just observe the conversation without becoming involved, we have already reached a high goal.
When I'm teaching, I find it interesting that the students who think they are very advanced will always jump immediately into a full version of the pose they "predict" will be next. There is always so much to be learned from the steps leading up to the pose, and when I see this we all spend a LOT more time exploring those steps! I just feel like they're not getting the most out of the practice if they race through it and try to "perform" instead of dig into the nitty-gritty of the less challenging poses. As someone said earlier (and much better), a less-advanced pose offers a very different, sometimes more difficult, type of challenge.
This is a little bit different from the students who understand their own practices and simply go their own way from time to time. I have a young lady that simply must have a shoulderstand before savasana, even if I don't think it's right for the whole class on that day. So, she does what her body dictates feels right for her. To me, that's not the same as blasting through the poses quickly just because you can. | |
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| I kinda feel like this one is the snake eating its own tail...
If I'm pushing myself deeper into a posture and I catch myself and say "hey ego, slow down" - then I'm learning about myself and growing. But what if what I really need is to push myself a little closer to the edge? If I tell myself that pushing is really the ego, so I don't push - has the clever little ego used my own fear of the ego to trick myself into not going to the edge?
Too many layers to think about and my head hurts!
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| Mitch, I think that's partially where the teacher or another outside observer might help. You could also view it as a bit of a balancing act. Not too much effort, not too little. | |
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| Mitch - 2005-12-23 10:33 AM
I kinda feel like this one is the snake eating its own tail...
If I'm pushing myself deeper into a posture and I catch myself and say "hey ego, slow down" - then I'm learning about myself and growing. But what if what I really need is to push myself a little closer to the edge? If I tell myself that pushing is really the ego, so I don't push - has the clever little ego used my own fear of the ego to trick myself into not going to the edge?
Too many layers to think about and my head hurts!
I understand what you mean. I think this is where honesty is of the utmost importance. One needs to be honest about their motivations and their abilities. Sometimes moving further into a posture can also sacrifice the integrity of that posture, for example take a simple posture Parsvakonasana. I began using a block upright for the hand then moved to its side and then took it away altogether. It wasn't until this year of continued practice that I felt that the pose is best contained when I use a block on its side. So sometimes we play to the edge to see what happens to the posture and then we gain an understanding of where is an ideal place for us to explore. | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-12-22 4:09 AM
Right on Neelbhai...great definition of the EGO.
What you guys are discussing is not really about the EGO, you are discussing COMPETITIVENESS, which is only a mere aspect of the EGO.
So, now that we have cleared that up...I'm not really as great of a Chef as I thought I was...someone is always going to come along and knock me off my throne, and bake a better cake than mine,
No I'm talking about more than competitiveness. I agree that competitiveness is an aspect or manifestation of ego. I am interested in how does one utilise ego with none attachement. It is of my opinion that to operate in this world of duality that one must use The sense of I-ness. One uses this sense of self to realise Self. I see Yoga as a means to do this and I'm particulary interested in how to do an asana practise with such understanding. I find it interesting how ego reveals itself in asana practice and how at times one can observe ego without identifying with it. So I guess where I am at with my understanding of ego is that it is not to be overcome and discarded but properly identified with and used.
Hope that there is some clarity in what I have just posted | |
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| Dear Damien:
I do not think your above post has made your statements clearer. I feel it made the original posting more complex. I think that the problem is caused by usage of the word, 'ego'. In the classical yoga system, egotism must be removed, and at the end even pure ego must be overcome. So, there is no such a thing as using ego in Asanas, etc. in the general understanding. I think you are meaning something other than ego. Could you please restate your statement?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Damien,
One of the ways I treat the Ego on the mat is the same as I would treat it OFF the mat. Another words, in my mind, there is no difference anymore. I used to seperate the two. I used to live one way outside in the world and a different way when I was inside my world. Not anymore - no longer. But, when I did seperate the two, it was necessary for my experience at that time. How else would I know the difference? Once I had someone give me some very useful advice. It was something to the effect that having some Ego can be a good IF it is tamed properly. So, I had a practice of *taming* the Ego, which was very enlightening to say the least. It was also very hard at times too because it kicked my butt all over the place until I learned. When dealing with the Ego its like peeling an onion..there are so many layers of it until you reach the core. Then when you think you are standing naked out in the cold, freezing your a$$ offf, you suddenly find yourself surrounded by a warm safe cocoon, 
As for the NON-Attachment part...well, that just comes naturally with practice. Also, the spiritual understanding of the practice also falls into place as well. You really need to be guided by a guru on some kind of level whether it be by teachings in person or wherever that you can relate with, especially at this point because you will eventually need clarity about your progress or should I say clarity with how you are progressing. Good luck with your practice. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-12-23 2:59 PM
Dear Damien:
I do not think your above post has made your statements clearer. I feel it made the original posting more complex. I think that the problem is caused by usage of the word, 'ego'. In the classical yoga system, egotism must be removed, and at the end even pure ego must be overcome. So, there is no such a thing as using ego in Asanas, etc. in the general understanding. I think you are meaning something other than ego. Could you please restate your statement?
Sole identification with the ego must be removed but not the ego itself is the understanding I have. Ego is a tool used for the creation of individuality. So the definition I have of Ego is I am-ness or individuality. | |
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| re: pointing out students in class.
i actually do this often, but not to compliment one student or another, but to demonstrate what they're doing to another student who is not getting it--particularly if it's something that i can't do.
but, this encourages a dialogue between students. one of my tenents of teaching is that i don't know everything and that a student's experience, expression, modification, etc can be extremely important and helpful to the class as a whole. I encourage my students to help each other, to offer suggestions, and to practice together before/after class to help each other out.
this has lead to some interesting experiences in class. For example, new students are completely surrounded and totally encouraged by experienced students. In fact, experienced students will often move their mats closer to new students and throughout class offer them quite tips or demonstrations as well as encouragement. I've found that this has made classroom learning exponentionally better than classrooms where only one person's opinion matters.
I was thinking about this last nite after i taught my last class. That class is particularly fun and a particularly encouraging group. We worked on handstands (among other things), and as you knwo there are many ways to enter into hand stands. One student is good at 'getting up there' but kinda 'bananas' her body and then ends up in dhanurasana. Another student doesn't get her legs up, but can hold the straight torso. So, i had the straight torso student demonstrate and instruct to the banana-ed student. I then moved on to help a new student discover crow pose. So, those two experienced students taught each other--each one offering an element to the other. Then, after the newbie got into crow pose, i wandered back to those two doing hand stand and did downward dog so that the 'banana-ed' student could do a modified hand stand and gain instruction from the other student about whether or not her torso was aligned. Then, once aligned, i had her take one leg up, then the other, with the other student--not me--observing the allignment and offering the technique.
so, i don't know how this fits in with ego, but it seems to encourage people to share their experience, their 'tricks' and their modifications with each other. Now, both students are able to get into hand stand more easily, because they taught each other. And, another experienced student took care of the newbie by encouraging the crow pose after i left to help with hand stand.
Maybe my classroom is just strange. But, i do expect them to do homework--practice at home--where they can go into the more meditative aspects of the postures or whatever else they want to go into. I consider classroom time, learning time. I expect them to take the time to learn something new, share something that they learned, or something to this effect. It's what i love about teaching--the exchange of ideas.
And maybe this perspective will take the 'ego' out of being called out as a demonstrator. (i dunno). | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Certainly when teaching things like handstand it can be very helpful to use students to demo and their egos just have to deal with it For starters, keeping yourself (the teacher) in the pose while talking can be a challenge and it is also pretty tough to point out areas in the back body that need attention while you are in the pose! But it is very instructive to have a couple of students who have different issues with a pose go into it while the class watches. I have seen quite a few "lightbulb" moments when the teacher points out a banana-style headstand or handstand and says "Mary, this is what you are doing," then gives the instructions to correct it. Mary can see how the other student works with the corrections then take that into her own pose, especially if she is a visual learner. And as I said, there is almost always something to correct in the other person's pose. The non-banana student probably has open shoulders but needs work on lengthening her inner legs to bring her feet into alignment or whatever. I don't think most people have problems with this (except when the teacher goes into a LOT of detail while they are desparately trying to hold a decent handstand!) - it is the constant pointing out of one individual as the "good" example that is embarrassing and counter-productive to their own practice. | |
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| Dear Damien:
You wrote: Sole identification with the ego must be removed but not the ego itself is the understanding I have. Ego is a tool used for the creation of individuality. So the definition I have of Ego is I am-ness or individuality.
If your understanding of ego is I-am ness, then it is created. Ego is called Asmita in Sanskrit. Asmi=Iam, and ta=ness. So you are correct. Now, Soul (NOT sole, As... in BBB's words!) identification with ego removal is Removal of ego, which results in Self Realization or Soul Realization. Once, the identification is removed, there is NO more Ego, because all understanding comes only by Sole getting identified with that thing. However, when one is performing the poses, they do need Ego as you correctly wrote, in that you are not removing ego, but using it for a pose. Later, when one gets interested in meditation, ego is used for meditation, and then when it medition is matured, the ego is used to remove the mind, and then only ego remains. When the ego itself is removed, then self realization takes place.
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| kulkarnn - 2005-12-24 10:37 AM
Dear Damien:
You wrote: Sole identification with the ego must be removed but not the ego itself is the understanding I have. Ego is a tool used for the creation of individuality. So the definition I have of Ego is I am-ness or individuality.
If your understanding of ego is I-am ness, then it is created. Ego is called Asmita in Sanskrit. Asmi=Iam, and ta=ness. So you are correct. Now, Soul (NOT sole, As... in BBB's words!) identification with ego removal is Removal of ego, which results in Self Realization or Soul Realization. Once, the identification is removed, there is NO more Ego, because all understanding comes only by Sole getting identified with that thing. However, when one is performing the poses, they do need Ego as you correctly wrote, in that you are not removing ego, but using it for a pose. Later, when one gets interested in meditation, ego is used for meditation, and then when it medition is matured, the ego is used to remove the mind, and then only ego remains. When the ego itself is removed, then self realization takes place.
Yes asmita was the word I had in mind for ego. I think the current understanding I have about Self realisation is greatly influenced by sri aurobindo. I believe that his conviction was that Ego once realised for what it is then it can be correctly used. Cannot one be Self realised and also use Ego as a tool for operating in the world of duality?
In any event the discussion I intended here was how do people deal with ego when they practise asana. I would also be interested how it affects them in the practise of pranayama.
BG 6.34 For fickle is the mind, O krishna, unruly, overpowering and stubborn; to curb it is, I think, as hard as to curb the wind
Edited by damien 2005-12-23 8:47 PM
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| Yes, Dear Damien. Shree Aurobindo was self realized, no doubt. And, yes. Ego is the last step before self realization, and therefore one knows the real nature of pure ego before one gets self realization, that is goes into a Samadhi stage which has NO ego. However, during Samadhi state, the person is oblivious of the world, and is NOT in the world mentally. He/She is in the self. When the Samadhi state is left and one again comes back in the world, the ego reappears. Thus, all worldly activites whether good or bad, whether Yoga Exercise or otherwise are always having ego included in them. When a person is self realized, one is supposed to have ripe ego or pure ego, and one can use it in such a way that one does not forget the true nature of the self. In short, when one is using pure ego after self realization, one is doing activities mainly for the benefit of others, and one behaves as if one is acting a role, but actually knows that it is only a role. It is like an actor who may be acting as one particular role, but knows that he/she is not the person whose role one is playing, but the real person is the Actor. In other words, the ego of the selfrealized person does not create new karma to be exhausted later.
Coming to your question, when one is performing yoga exercise one has to use ego in the such a way that one does not become egotistic, one understands the yoga exercise is meant for obtaining health of body and mind, that is basically cleaning body and mind, and it is NOT an end in itself, and one should progress towards spirituality, that is the usage of pure ego during Yoga Exercise including Pranayama. Usage of pure ego in this way also shall remove certain distractions caused by one's wrong assumption that one is Body or one is Mind, which assumptions will limit one's ability to progress. When one assumes that one is Self, the ability to perform actions with and over body and mind shall be more efficient. When one has only pure ego, all body actions and mind actions should be possible, but one may not perform them. In fact, one shall use that status towards spirituality and NOT body/mind actions.
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| Thanks neal. Your above post fits in with my current understanding of things.
I suppose that which is more relevant than ego in my current practice is the observation and calming of the fluctuations of the mind. | |
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Ego in yoga