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| JOY: The Journal of Yoga is requesting academic articles related to yogic philosophy, consciousness studies, and ayurvedic medicine.
Articles are uploaded to our academic database and available to educational users worldwide.
Here is a short description of JOY posted on the website:
JOY: The Journal of Yoga is an international and transdisciplinary scholarly journal dedicated to work in asian philosophy, consciousness studies, and yogic spirituality. JOY welcomes contributions from researchers and yoga practitioners exploring the philosophy of yoga, neuroscience of meditation, schools of eastern thought, historical development of the yoga tradition, ayurvedic medicine, and spiritual phenomenology. The journal seeks to provide a forum for east-west comparative analysis and potential applications of yogic philosophy to contemporary concerns. In particular, JOY aims to investigate the impact of yogic practices upon cognition, physical health, and social interactions.
Please visit JOY online at http://www.journalofyoga.org :lol:
Edited by psi 2005-12-14 11:03 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | Here's a fun link from J.Yoga, obviously a scholarly publication.
Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months
By Thomas Bell in Bara District, Nepal
(Filed: 21/11/2005)
Thousands of pilgrims are pouring into the dense jungle of southern Nepal to worship a 15-year-old boy who has been hailed as a new Buddha.
Devotees claim that Ram Bomjon, who is silently meditating beneath a tree, has not eaten or drunk anything since he sat down at his chosen spot six months ago.
Ram Bomjon maintains his vigil in the shade of his pipal tree
Witnesses say they have seen light emanating from the teenager's forehead.
"It looks a bit like when you shine a torch through your hand," said Tek Bahadur Lama, a member of the committee responsible for dealing with the growing number of visitors from India and elsewhere in Nepal.
Photographs of Ram Bomjon, available for five rupees (4p) from his makeshift shrine, have become ubiquitous across the region. "Far and wide, it's the only topic of conversation," said Upendra Lamichami, a local journalist.
He said no allegation had yet emerged of Ram breaking his fast or moving, even to relieve himself.
Santa Raj Subedi, the chief government official in Bara district, appealed to the capital, Kathmandu, for assistance in dealing with the influx of visitors, and for a team of scients to examine the case.
Local doctors failed to reach a final conclusion, although they were allowed no closer than five yards from the boy mystic, declaring that they could confirm no more than that he was alive.
The popularity of the phenomenon is partly because it resembles an episode in the life of the historical Buddha, who was born 160 miles away around 543 BC. The Buddha achieved enlightenment when he meditated beneath a sacred pipal tree for 49 days.
Ram Bomjon is also sitting beneath a pipal tree, in the same posture as the Buddha is depicted, but his vigil has already taken longer.
Ram's mother, who is called Maya Devi, like the Buddha's mother, admits to anxiety, particularly at meal times. But she tells herself: "God took him to the forest and I have faith that God will feed him."
She said: "He's definitely got thinner. Early in the morning he looks sunken, like there's no blood in him, but as the sun rises he seems to get brighter and brighter."
The fervour increased last week when a snake is said to have bitten Ram, and a curtain was drawn around him.
After five days it was opened and he spoke. "Tell the people not to call me a Buddha. I don't have the Buddha's energy. I am at the level of rinpoche [lesser divinity].
"A snake bit me but I do not need treatment. I need six years of deep meditation
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-12-14 10:46 PM
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| Saw a similar version on yahoo. They mentioned that his followers cover him a night, so he might be getting up to go to the bathroom/eat then. | |
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| I would hope so. | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-12-15 5:48 PM
I would hope so.
Wellll, supposedly he doesn't need these sorts of things because he's in a trance/mystical state, etc etc etc.
I'd personally like to see him get up once in a while, stretch, fart, eat something, and go back to meditating, this just sounds like a stunt to me. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Oh please... it's total bulltihs.
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| Hmm, where is the LOVE?? Saints are not just from the past, we need them NOW more than ever (maybe, but you know what i mean). Anyway here is something of the recent past of a saint whom also did not eat.
Well i copied and paced but theres just too much info available online and too much to read here .. search St. Therese of Konnersreuth and others, saints that are referred to as 'breatharians' or 'living on light' alone.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
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| So true, and many get lost just looking for Love. or from Love. | |
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| If you don't eat, you also probably don't need to have your followers cover you up ever night. Personally I don't care much for saints, they're always cause lots of trouble, and holy wars. I'd much rather have a single level headed sinner than a dozen saints. Much more likely to get something useful done.  | |
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| Well then, when you're ready. | |
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| Bay Guy- are you making fun?
I put up the article and picture of the 15 year old for several reasons. First, I find it personally inspirational. Perhaps it is just a bunch of b.s., but I like to think that there are some people out there seriously (and maybe he is not one of them) undergoing meditative transformation. Second, I think the story is relevant to JOY readers even if it is not exactly 'academic.' Unfortunately, this has been an issue with the eastern sciences and ways of investigation generally- they have not been sufficiently scrutinized by the larger scientific community. I started JOY to create an academic arena to rigorously explore yoga and related sciences. To some extent the journal has been successful in this goal, but I sincerely hope that JOY continues to evolve and becomes a much stronger scholarly resource on yoga. Most of the serial publications out there on yoga seem to appear to a largely watered down and westernized form of yoga and while I don't necessarily have any issues with that, I hope that JOY will appeal to readers looking for a little more depth and interest in the philosophies that have helped shape the yogic tradition. Yet, by no means can I do it alone, and hence, my post and call for articles. | |
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| I would say that fame is not an aid to anybody's practice. I also find it disturbing that he's aping something with historical significance. In the end I guess I think that if this was sincere, he'd be doing it in private, instead of making a huge, international show. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Even in a country such as Nepal..there are just as many fake and phonies as in any place. My Mother-in-law called us a couple of months ago talking about this little Buddha guy. (My mother-in-law is Nepalis). There are lots of Nepalis who are not convinced about this guy and then there are some that are. I don't think there has been any confirmation about this boy's abilities. This kind of thing goes on all the time in Nepal. This is nothing for this country as there are always "supernatural" type stories going on in the villages of miraculous miracles and things happening. Somebody is obviously making a big to do about this particular situation for whatever reasons - maybe they are looking for recognition or attention..who knows.
Even Jesus Christ and Buddha himself had to deal with scrutinity...it's just part of the terrain, | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-12-16 11:10 AM
Even Jesus Christ and Buddha himself had to deal with scrutinity...it's just part of the terrain,
True, but only after they had gotten there, not before. After all where are all those years before JC starting preaching? | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Om All,
In regards to Buddha Boy, I find it a hellva feat to sit and meditate for hours on end, days and months let alone anything else.
So many enlightened ones walk the path today yet noone knows who they are or where. In this era of greed and self loaving people are in such need for a "saint " that they a prone to cling to "false prophets".
Have you ever seen how the people flock to the crazy images of the Virgin Mary?
I would love for this boy to be a reincarnate because this world needs someone like him, but swamji also says to question everything, never follow blindly.
-I am not this body, I am not this mind.
Om Shanti,
Ravi
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Location: Upstate NY | sorry mis-spelled..... self-loathing........ | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | It's okay Ravi, we understood you. Where are you from or what is your local?? I don't think we've had the pleasure of an introduction yet. | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Om Namah Sivaya
Cyndi,
I live in upstate NY..............a little place called Norwich. I am one of only two people certified to teach yoga in our whole county  if that gives you an idea how rural it is here. 
I just came across the site here recently and really enjoy the community here. I have gained a great deal of insight form you all which has enable me to deepen my practice every day. I look forward to reading the posts everyday. I have taken alot and incorporated some stuff into my own classes, which I feel has made me a better teacher. Swamiji always said the best teacher was also the ever striving student.
Om Shanti,
Ravi | |
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Location: Upstate NY | hahahahaa...I did it again......I meant from not form.......  | |
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| Hello GreenJellow,
Whether he eats, etc... or not the fact is he sits for long time continuously (at least all day, perhaps he gets up at night). Most people can't sit still for half an hour. Also, he never made all those claims since he practically does not speak - its the people around him who noticed him and telling others and speculating. This is the way the word spread. So I understand the need for skepticism on such matters, but to call it a stunt and speak dismissively of someone who is clearly trying to achieve serious yogic attainment (16-year olds don't just decide to sit in meditation all day for so long) is very much unwarranted. Also, there might be a lot of pressure on him to continue from other people around him, etc... Also, apparently he was ticked off at the fact that people said he was enlightened, which he strongly denies - always a good sign.
My only issue with the whole ordeal is if someone would explain to him, perhaps quoting the Buddha, that excessive fasting and engaging in too difficult penances are an obstacle to practice and not an aid. Often young people when get into things get into it with too much zeal without understanding how to go about it systematically - in this case there seems some emotional desire to replicate the Buddha's course of practice. It would be helpful if he had a Guru,
Regards. | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-12-16 9:02 PM
Whether he eats, etc... or not the fact is he sits for long time continuously (at least all day, perhaps he gets up at night). Most people can't sit still for half an hour.
I disagree with this, ask anybody who's gone deer hunting how long they can sit for. This includes 16 year old boys. Generally they aren't too motivated to do this sort of thing, but given the right circumstances I could see it happening.
Also, he never made all those claims since he practically does not speak - its the people around him who noticed him and telling others and speculating. This is the way the word spread. So I understand the need for skepticism on such matters, but to call it a stunt and speak dismissively of someone who is clearly trying to achieve serious yogic attainment (16-year olds don't just decide to sit in meditation all day for so long) is very much unwarranted.
Well, that appears to be where we disagree. I don't think it possible to tell what's really going on with him, but I find that fact that it's made internation news much more likely that it's not true.
Also, there might be a lot of pressure on him to continue from other people around him, etc... Also, apparently he was ticked off at the fact that people said he was enlightened, which he strongly denies - always a good sign.
True. It would be an even better sign if he had gotten up when the crowds started to gather, and went else where. Maybe someplace inside, or away from people so he wouldn't be disturbed.
My only issue with the whole ordeal is if someone would explain to him, perhaps quoting the Buddha, that excessive fasting and engaging in too difficult penances are an obstacle to practice and not an aid.
Which was what I was attempting to get at with my comment about getting up, stretching, eating something, moving around, etc. This is also part of the reason I think it's more likely to be a stunt, it's very over the top and showy. | |
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| belovedofthegod said: "My only issue with the whole ordeal is if someone would explain to him, perhaps quoting the Buddha, that excessive fasting and engaging in too difficult penances are an obstacle to practice and not an aid. Often young people when get into things get into it with too much zeal without understanding how to go about it systematically" what i find interesting about this point, whenever it is raised, is that the buddha did in fact do these things before he became enlightened. he then said they were not necessary, but would he say that anything is really necessary? of course, i don't know what the buddha would say, but it seems to me that most people have to do the unecessary things if they still have any tiny belief that they might be useful, if only to prove to themself experientially that it doesn't matter at all. kinda like the "we all have to learn our own lessons" kind of thing, but on a "more evolved?" level otherwise there may always be this nagging doubt that you might be better off, or more enlightened, or whatever. in my own life, on a mundane level, an example of a tattoo. i wanted a tattoo and i thought it would be really cool. i would be cooler if i got a tattoo. i would be expressing myself more fully. i would have a symbolic and meaningful symbol on my skin. my life would be more meaningful....and on and on. i don't even remember some of the things i believed would be more true once i got the tattoo. once i got the tattoo, nothing changed. everything was exactly the same. i found out that i didn't need a tattoo. that the change i wanted to see was within. but i (at my stage, for me, at the time) absolutely needed that tattoo in order to realize that i didn't need one. and that actually was an impetus to send me inward, and to realize some attachment to material trappings. what i would say to other people is: "you don't need a tattoo to feel _insert what you think will change when you get a tattoo_" and it's true. you don't. but other people who are like me might need to go through that experience if they're not already ripe enough to get just the words. the words are for the ripe. the austerities are for the rest of us. | |
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| Hi GreenJellow,
"I disagree with this, ask anybody who's gone deer hunting how long they can sit for."
Right, but do they go deer hunting everyday for months? Keep in mind that even when (or if, if you like) he gets up and moves around at night he isn't really going very far. Its difficult circumstances to put oneself into. Also, I don't know about deer hunting, but I doubt people sit absolutely still for hours - that would greatly surprise me.
"I don't think it possible to tell what's really going on with him, but I find that fact that it's made internation news much more likely that it's not true."
Again, my basic point stands. He doesn't really talk, so he hasn't claimed anything - those around him have. It makes no sense to accuse him of making this or that claim.
I don't think the fasting, etc... is true, but there seems as of now no reason to believe the person is not sincere in practice.
Hi Shiva,
"what i find interesting about this point, whenever it is raised, is that the buddha did in fact do these things before he became enlightened. he then said they were not necessary, but would he say that anything is really necessary?"
Yes, he said people had to practice the eightfold path to get liberation.
The Bhagavadgita also says:
"Yoga is not for him who eats too much, nor for him who eats too little, nor for him who indulges in too much sleep and surely not for him who keeps awake (too long). He who is moderate in eathing and movement, in exertion and in work, in sleep and wakefulness, to him accrues yoga which destroys sorrow." (VI: 16-17)
"of course, i don't know what the buddha would say, but it seems to me that most people have to do the unecessary things if they still have any tiny belief that they might be useful, if only to prove to themself experientially that it doesn't matter at all."
If you makes a mistake, then its good to learn from one's mistakes. However, its better to follow good advice and avoid making the mistake in the first place. The purpose of having a tested tradition is that people have a roadmap to follow and do not have to reinvent the wheel. Sometimes different traditions, etc... disagree but on this there is widespread agreement,
R. | |
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| the buddha also said, "don't take it from me. experience it yourself." or something to that effect. i guess i'm not trying to argue against the path of moderation. but even moderation in moderation! it is wise to avoid making mistakes. but to avoid making mistakes, when you don't know in your heart of hearts why you're doing what you're doing, is just following another's dogma. and of course all traditions agree that you should follow their dogma... as i believe you should follow mine!  the buddha said there is an end to suffering and that is by following the eightfold path. i don't know if he would have said that anyone "HAD" to "practice the path to get liberation...that sentence kind of reads grammatically like "You have to believe that jesus christ is your savior in order to go to heavan" which is fine and dandy, but not what buddhism is about. check out http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm and particularly click on "8 path as reflective teaching" of course, this guy is not the buddha, but i like it. to me, buddhism is more subtle than that: >>Yes, he said people had to practice the eightfold path to get liberation. Best, | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-12-17 7:34 PM
"I disagree with this, ask anybody who's gone deer hunting how long they can sit for."
Right, but do they go deer hunting everyday for months?
No, but going for several days at a stretch isn't that odd, and from kids who usually can't sit still for a minute in school.
I also didn't do a great deal when I was a kid, just not that motivated to get up and move around, I prefered to sit and read. The point being that not all kids are hyper-active bundles of energy that need to move around a lot. Is he really sitting there without moving? Most people I know who meditation aren't that devoted, so I'm going to assume he's making some movements, maybe not getting up, but some.
Its difficult circumstances to put oneself into. Also, I don't know about deer hunting, but I doubt people sit absolutely still for hours - that would greatly surprise me.
Deer are very sensitive, and doubly so for movement. They at least sit are still as most people who meditate.
"I don't think it possible to tell what's really going on with him, but I find that fact that it's made internation news much more likely that it's not true."
Again, my basic point stands. He doesn't really talk, so he hasn't claimed anything - those around him have. It makes no sense to accuse him of making this or that claim.
No, but there's also no reason to accept it whole cloth. Also not speaking doesn't necessarily imply not making a claim. By publically doing exactly what he's doing, particular with aping previous historical circumstances he's making a definite claim. Much the same if I decided to dressed up as Abe Lincoln, or a policeman's uniform, and never said a word.
I've yet to hear any reason why if he's so sincere in his practice he doesn't attempt to change his circumstances to a more private place, which IMHO should definitely help his practice. Instead he appears to be engaged in doing something that's hurting it (drawing attention), to the point that he's getting upset about people's claims regarding his intentions.
Unfortunately most of the news stories I've seen have been very sparse on the sort of details I would find most interesting. How are his parents reacting? Does he has a set of followers or other promoters? Are the people who are attracted to this making any sort of offerings, including food? How are the offerings handled? How is he conducting himself on a day to day basis? (I'd like to see this personally) What started all the people gathering around to see him do this?
I'm also reminded of the fact that most of the girls involved in the Salem witch trials were teenagers. They were able to perpetuate a very vast and cruel hoax for months many for attention.
I don't think the fasting, etc... is true, but there seems as of now no reason to believe the person is not sincere in practice.
It's not an absolute by any measure, but I find the publicity makes it very unlikely IMHO. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, since it's not possible to discern his intentions either way. | |
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| "It's not an absolute by any measure, but I find the publicity makes it very unlikely IMHO. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, since it's not possible to discern his intentions either way."
Indeed... We'll see how this proceeds. | |
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| Hi Shiva,
'the buddha also said, "don't take it from me. experience it yourself." or something to that effect. i guess i'm not trying to argue against the path of moderation. but even moderation in moderation! it is wise to avoid making mistakes. but to avoid making mistakes, when you don't know in your heart of hearts why you're doing what you're doing, is just following another's dogma. and of course all traditions agree that you should follow their dogma..."
Moderation in moderation, etc... is just intellectualization. No one says you have to follow advice, but there is no wisdom or good reason to not follow clearly good advice. Would you tell a child who wants to learn about suicide to try for themselves and experientally discover the truth instead of dogmatically listening to people who say "don't kill yourself!"? Keep in mind that even speaking purely physically, excess fasting can lead to death - its not something innocuous.
" i don't know if he would have said that anyone "HAD" to "practice the path to get liberation...that sentence kind of reads grammatically like "You have to believe that jesus christ is your savior in order to go to heavan" which is fine and dandy, but not what buddhism is about."
Often people have romanticized notions of Buddhism being completely undogmatic, etc... particularly because of some charismatic leaders who are popular in the west, but official Buddhist position (and in my experience held by most practioners including westerners) in all major schools of Buddhism (yes, very explicitly even in Zen), there is no liberation outside Buddhism.
Whether this was what the Buddha meant or not (complicated discussion - especially since one doesn't know to what extent Buddhist scripture was spoken by the Buddha), this is the position of Buddhism. The reason it is not as bad as Christianity is that non-Buddhists don't automatically go to eternal hell so Buddhists can be more flexibile and accepting and don't have such an urgent zeal to convert people,
R.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-12-18 4:48 PM
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-12-18 4:45 PM
Often people have romanticized notions of Buddhism being completely undogmatic, etc... particularly because of some charismatic leaders who are popular in the west, but official Buddhist position (and in my experience held by most practioners including westerners) in all major schools of Buddhism (yes, very explicitly even in Zen), there is no liberation outside Buddhism.
I'm going to assume you're refering to Alan Watts. I'm also wondering where the idea of no liberation outside Buddhism comes from. Maybe I've just been reading the authors you're refering too, but I don't think I'm come across that concept anywhere. I'm sure they'll tell you that you can't get to there by just doing any old thing, or that they're not sure where the other paths go, but the no liberation outside Buddhism sounds very dogmatic and overly zealous to me.
I'm also wondering what your background is, would you care to discuss it? Your screen name seems to imply some sort of Christian/monotheistic background to me. | |
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| Hi GreenJello,
"I'm also wondering what your background is, would you care to discuss it? Your screen name seems to imply some sort of Christian/monotheistic background to me."
Quite ironic; when I registered the name, I meant to register "belovedofthegods" but the last "s" didn't get in because of character limit or perhaps some other computer-related reason. I'm Hindu by birth and practice.
"I'm sure they'll tell you that you can't get to there by just doing any old thing, or that they're not sure where the other paths go, but the no liberation outside Buddhism sounds very dogmatic and overly zealous to me."
Again, this is standard Buddhist position shared by all standard schools. Of course Buddhist writers catering westerners will not write "no liberation outside Buddhism" but if you speak and discuss in detail with learned traditional Buddhists, this is clearly their position. I am not sure how I can go about showing this, you really only get an idea of this by talking with Buddhists since there is no common presentation that one can just go and find somewhere.
In Zen you can find this out quite easily, since they talk about the five types of Zen, with the second kind being meditation for spiritual purposes, but non-Buddhist - this cannot ever lead to liberation, at best temporary heaven. You can check out the "five types of Zen" even with a google search. If even a relatively eccentric sect such as Zen believes this, one should expect the same from rest of Mahayana. Besides the Mahayana Sutras are very clear on this, for instance the Mahaparinirvana Sutra says:
"O good man! The tirthikas [non-Buddhists] are ignorant and are like children. They do not have the expedients of Wisdom. They cannot truly see what is meant by eternal, non-eternal, suffering, bliss, pure, not-pure, Self, not-Self, life, non-life, being, non-being, real, non-real, what is or what is not. They partake of only a little of the Buddhist teaching. In a false way they say that there are the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and Purity. A person congenitally blind does not know what the colour of milk is like. He asks: "What is the colour of milk like?" Another says: "It is as white as the colour of a shell." The blind man further asks: "Is the colour of milk like the sound of a horn?" "No" is the reply. "What colour is the colour of a shell like?" The answer comes back: "It is like the colour of rice powder." The blind man asks: "Is the colour of milk as soft as rice powder? And what is the colour of rice powder like?" The answer comes: "It is like snow." The blind man says: "Is rice powder as cold as snow? And what is it like?" The answer comes back: "It is like a crane." Even though this congenitally blind man receives four similes in reply, he cannot arrive at the true colour of milk. It is the same with the tirthikas. To the end, they cannot arrive at what is meant by the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and Purity. The same is the case [here]. O good man! For this reason, the real truth rests with the Buddhist teaching. Things do not stand thus with the tirthikas."
The Vajrayana position is summarized by Sakya Pandita (widely respected 13th century Tibetan Buddhist):
"Without repelling thoughts of this world,
Even an excellent pracitioner attains the tips of samsara.
Without relying upon the Triple Gem,
Even an excellent person is a heretic."
The problem is I can get you a lot of quotes from contemporary Buddhist teachers which reflects the tradition but I don't know how else I can explain that this is their view. Quotes seem too limited (you might say "maybe only some of them believe this but its not the traditional position"), but it should give some indication anyway. Some quotes (just from googling) then:
"In terms of teachings in general, there are two types: Buddhadharma and the teachings of the mu-teg-pa (Skt: tirthika) [See Meditation on Emptiness, pp. 320-21.] The latter are teachings based on mistaken beliefs, an understanding opposite to that of Buddhadharma - teachings followed by outsiders. By following such non-Buddhist teachings, you can be born anywhere from the lower realms to the peak of samsara, the highest of the four formless realms, but can never escape samsara." ( | |
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| Hi GreenJello,
"I'm also wondering what your background is, would you care to discuss it? Your screen name seems to imply some sort of Christian/monotheistic background to me."
Quite ironic; when I registered the name, I meant to register "belovedofthegods" but the last "s" didn't get in because of character limit or perhaps some other computer-related reason. I'm Hindu by birth and practice.
"I'm sure they'll tell you that you can't get to there by just doing any old thing, or that they're not sure where the other paths go, but the no liberation outside Buddhism sounds very dogmatic and overly zealous to me."
Again, this is standard Buddhist position shared by all standard schools. Of course Buddhist writers catering westerners will not write "no liberation outside Buddhism" but if you speak and discuss in detail with learned traditional Buddhists, this is clearly their position. I am not sure how I can go about showing this, you really only get an idea of this by talking with Buddhists since there is no common presentation that one can just go and find somewhere.
In Zen you can find this out quite easily, since they talk about the five types of Zen, with the second kind being meditation for spiritual purposes, but non-Buddhist - this cannot ever lead to liberation, at best temporary heaven. You can check out the "five types of Zen" even with a google search. If even a relatively eccentric sect such as Zen believes this, one should expect the same from rest of Mahayana. Besides the Mahayana Sutras are very clear on this, for instance the Mahaparinirvana Sutra says:
"O good man! The tirthikas [non-Buddhists] are ignorant and are like children. They do not have the expedients of Wisdom. They cannot truly see what is meant by eternal, non-eternal, suffering, bliss, pure, not-pure, Self, not-Self, life, non-life, being, non-being, real, non-real, what is or what is not. They partake of only a little of the Buddhist teaching. In a false way they say that there are the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and Purity. A person congenitally blind does not know what the colour of milk is like. He asks: "What is the colour of milk like?" Another says: "It is as white as the colour of a shell." The blind man further asks: "Is the colour of milk like the sound of a horn?" "No" is the reply. "What colour is the colour of a shell like?" The answer comes back: "It is like the colour of rice powder." The blind man asks: "Is the colour of milk as soft as rice powder? And what is the colour of rice powder like?" The answer comes: "It is like snow." The blind man says: "Is rice powder as cold as snow? And what is it like?" The answer comes back: "It is like a crane." Even though this congenitally blind man receives four similes in reply, he cannot arrive at the true colour of milk. It is the same with the tirthikas. To the end, they cannot arrive at what is meant by the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and Purity. The same is the case [here]. O good man! For this reason, the real truth rests with the Buddhist teaching. Things do not stand thus with the tirthikas."
The Vajrayana position is summarized by Sakya Pandita (widely respected 13th century Tibetan Buddhist):
"Without repelling thoughts of this world,
Even an excellent pracitioner attains the tips of samsara.
Without relying upon the Triple Gem,
Even an excellent person is a heretic."
Some modern Vajrayana teachers quickly from google search:
"In terms of teachings in general, there are two types: Buddhadharma and the teachings of the mu-teg-pa (Skt: tirthika) [See Meditation on Emptiness, pp. 320-21.] The latter are teachings based on mistaken beliefs, an understanding opposite to that of Buddhadharma - teachings followed by outsiders. By following such non-Buddhist teachings, you can be born anywhere from the lower realms to the peak of samsara, the highest of the four formless realms, but can never escape samsara." (Khunu Lama Rinpoche)
"The Inferior Path
Some religions or philosophical traditions while claiming to yield good results actually lead their practitioners to undesirable destinations. For instance, the inferiors Tirthikas (non-Buddhist Indian schools) as well as those who propound Nihilism only lead their followers to rebirths in the miserable realms of existence. The higher Tirthikas can lead one to the acquisition of a rebirth in the higher realms, but not to liberation. And even the paths of Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana are inferior, for they lead only to simply liberation, and not to complete Buddhahood.
The Special Path
The special path is the Mahayana. It is superior to both non-Buddhist paths and the lower Buddhist paths for it alone is the means by which perfect Buddhahood can be attained" (Sakya Trizin)
To be fair, Theravada teachers don't seem to teach no liberation outside refuge and their contention is simply that there is no liberation outside the eightfold path - which does however mean on has to explicitly adhere to "right view," a doctrine of non-self (which excludes all other religions anyway).
Despite the good marketing, the traditional Buddhist position is that there is no liberation outside Buddhism - this is not to say that all Buddhists believe this, however I have found that most do,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-12-22 3:14 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi BOTG,
That was my experience with the Tibetan Buddhist as well. That is the main reason I left and quit the practice...I just simply could not adhere and agree with their concepts of them being the only way and everyone else was going to hell or to the lower/hell realms.
Thanks for your post, that was interesting reading,
Take care and Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, New Year and whatever else holiday is going on!
Cyndi | |
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| BOTG, That's an interesting post. I'll have to think about it for a while. Some of it seems to go back to you're not going to get there by doing that, while some of it does reflect a certain smug, you're going to hell sort of attitude.
As a Hindu, how do you feel about the Buddhists? | |
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| Hi Cyndi,
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too!
Hi GreenJello,
"BOTG, That's an interesting post. I'll have to think about it for a while. Some of it seems to go back to you're not going to get there by doing that, while some of it does reflect a certain smug, you're going to hell sort of attitude."
Yes, its a bit of both; some of it is extremely important psychological considerations that should indeed be stressed by all, and some of it is just sectarianism.
"As a Hindu, how do you feel about the Buddhists?"
Sorry, I tried typing up a response three times (wrote about a paragraph each time), but I don't really know how to answer! Of course I can't generalize about all Buddhists, but I was trying to give my impressions of my encounters with their tradition. The problem I find is that I get to a point where what I say would apply to all/most religions. If you like, please ask some more specific questions, as I do want to share my thoughts but, this question has me stuck!
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| I freely admit it's a bit of a leading question. I'm attempting to figure out your biases, and if you're aware I'm doing this it makes it harder.
Anyway, since I'm leveling, I'll admit that my main reason for asking this was that my understand was that in traditional india culture the Buddhist are not dealt with very well. 'Untouchable' is the term I've heard applied. Please do not take this the wrong way, I'm just attempting to access the validity of what you're saying. Nothing you've said indicates you have any sort of bad prejudices against them, but I am cautious about accepting such a radical shift in my view point. | |
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| "Nothing you've said indicates you have any sort of bad prejudices against them, but I am cautious about accepting such a radical shift in my view point."
And rightly so, you should of course explore more thoroughly.
"Anyway, since I'm leveling, I'll admit that my main reason for asking this was that my understand was that in traditional india culture the Buddhist are not dealt with very well. 'Untouchable' is the term I've heard applied."
Well, this account is a bit mixed up.
In Indian society, a group of people called the untouchables has been around for a long time, but has no specific relation with the Buddhists. Some Buddhists might have been from that part of society, but most people from that part of society were Hindu. Basically, its an extension of the caste system created by those in power.
Traditionally, in India, no sect liked each other's philosophic views but other than in extremely rare cases, there was little violence because of this. Mostly it was just mutual intellectual agression.
The relation between the Buddhists and the untouchables is a very recent one. Its not that Buddhists are considered untouchables, but it is that a large number of untouchables, led by Ambedkar mass-converted to Buddhism (and continue to do so). This Buddhism is not really Buddhism and is widely discredited by most Buddhists (though basically everyone respects Ambedkar for his social and political role). He gets rid of ideas he doesn't like by simply claiming that they were invented by later monks. And he does this to the four noble truths too: he says they are too negative to have been the Buddha's words and were invented later by monks.
In general, Ambedkar was very openly anti-Hinduism (not anti-Hindu, he wasn't against the people who were Hindu but he hated the religion). His followers uphold this and are extremely aggresive and critical of Hinduism. The Dalai Lama has critcized them (he refers to them as neo-Buddhists in interviews) for this and consequently they want the Dalai Lama to leave India. One thing is that there is a tendency by this movement to spread a lot of misinformation and often they invent history (so they said the original religion of the untouchables was Buddhism, a theory that has no historical foundation) so this might be where you got the idea that Buddhists were considered untouchables.
In addition to general information, another source a lot of people on the internet come across with is dalitstan.org. This site is not even accepted by mainstream untouchable movement since it is a front for the Islamic fundamentalist group, Hezb-e-Mughalstan which wants a Muslim India. A lot of people get information from there and the information they tend to get is very much flawed. They even have forged documents by Ambedkar,
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I heard an interview with someone at a world conference (or something similar) of the untouchable group on CBC (Canadian NPR) and the understanding I got was that people converted to Buddhism simply to escape the "untouchable" label. If one is not Hindu, one is not a part of the caste system, is the way I heard it. It all seems odd at best, to western ears that ideas/systems so medieval can persist into what is being called a post-modern era. In North Amercia in particular, nobody knows you if you're down and out but if you have money and position, we don't seem to care much what your family did or where you came from.
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-12-26 10:04 AM
Traditionally, in India, no sect liked each other's philosophic views but other than in extremely rare cases, there was little violence because of this. Mostly it was just mutual intellectual agression.
So what else is new. Sounds completely human to me.
In general, Ambedkar was very openly anti-Hinduism (not anti-Hindu, he wasn't against the people who were Hindu but he hated the religion). His followers uphold this and are extremely aggresive and critical of Hinduism.
I assume this stems from their dislike of the caste system, and it's links to Hinduism.
The Dalai Lama has critcized them (he refers to them as neo-Buddhists in interviews) for this and consequently they want the Dalai Lama to leave India. One thing is that there is a tendency by this movement to spread a lot of misinformation and often they invent history (so they said the original religion of the untouchables was Buddhism, a theory that has no historical foundation) so this might be where you got the idea that Buddhists were considered untouchables.
Probably.
There's also an interesting Wikipedia entry about the man as well. He sounds like a pretty devisive leader, not unlike America's Malcom X. Some very good things about the man (such as his involvement in adding human rights to the India constitution), and some very bad things (such as insistence of rights for the Dalits to the detriment of others).
I think I'm going to back off now, the wikipedia article made it clear that this is a _very_ touchy subject. I appreciate your attempting to discuss it civily. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi BOTG and SF,
Satyam says in his culture from Nepal, they think that Buddha is a part of Hindu. But, the Buddhist people do not feel this way.
There is a festival called Doshain, which is a cultural festival based on Hindu belief's, but NOT in the VEDANTA, that some Hindu's practice. They take an animal sacrifice to Kali and Durga, give them a shower with that blood and then take the meat as prasad from the God's. Also, a lot of Brahmins drink liquor and spend time with a lot of different women during this time. These are the things Buddha did not like. According to the Veda, Buddha thought that Hindu's should not be drinking and having sex with various women and violence against animals. That is one of the reasons he made Buddhism seperate from Hinduism, but, even Buddhist don't follow their own rules in this regard. So, there are also many if not most, Hindu's that do NOT agree with this practice of killing animals, just the same as there are some that still practice this today in the villages.
The main things Buddha wanted to bring by forming Buddhism, was Satya(truth), Dharma (rite conduct), Shanti (peace), and ahimsa (non-violence). These are already teachings of the Veda, but since people were not following these teachings of the Veda, Buddhism was formed. Actually it is no different from Hinduism. Buddha opened their eyes so to speak to what was already known that they should of been practicing in the first place. The killing of animals originated from Hindu priest's....the same kind of priest's that formed the caste system as well.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-12-26 11:17 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| even Buddhist don't follow their own rules
This is pretty common within all religions, which is why so many of us, like you Cyndi, have become disenchanted with organized religion. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Yep, your right Tourist. I think my problem is being more dis-enchanted with humans than anything, Like yesterday, there was nothing wrong with the church and the atmosphere I was in yesterday, for the most part...it was the interpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the biased attitudes that PEOPLE have to justify their NAUGHY behavior and to say that Jesus Christ is their savior so that they can continue with their behavior, NOT taking responsibility for themselves...ahhhh the saga continues...as the world turns, | |
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| tourist - 2005-12-26 10:23 AM
It all seems odd at best, to western ears that ideas/systems so medieval can persist into what is being called a post-modern era. In North Amercia in particular, nobody knows you if you're down and out but if you have money and position, we don't seem to care much what your family did or where you came from.
Things in western cultures are much more fluid, but there is definitely still a certain amount of class stratification. Nobody would expect a working guy like me to end up with Paris Hilton, it just wouldn't happen.
The wikipedia entry for the Hindu caste system has a couple of interesting points. First, it mentions that the idea of "caste" was imposed on the hindus by the Portugese, and that even the word caste is Portugese in original. It also mentions the idea that originally there was supposed to be more fluidity in the system, and that this waxed and waned over the years. Much the same way that during the victorian era my mentioning any desire for Paris Hilton would have been shunned for caste reasons, instead of just matter of general taste (I really really don't like the girl).
As far as the struggle with hypocricy goes, there are some far deeper forces involved, particular when you start talking about the majority religion of an area. Anyway, I generally tell people I'm a Jedi knight if I'm hanging with my fellow geeks, a yogi with yogis, and a freak with normal people. Labels are important when giving people some idea of where you're coming from, but not entirely essential. | |
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| GJ - "Hark the harold angel sing, glory to the newborn king!"
If I'm not mistaken, there were a few converts to Christianity just prior to Jesus' birth and these people believed Jesus was their savior, like the 3 wise men.
Of course, there were lots of other people that didn't believe Jesus was God, like Pontius Pilot. I think Pilot said "If you're God then you can get yourself out of this mess" - sort of.
I don't understand that.
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