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| A look into phillosophy, twisted, contorted, chewed up, and spit back out.
How would you start a topic on philosophy? would you be philisophical? I truly am puzzled at why you can contain intrinsic thoughts into a mold labled philosophy.
Can philosophy define god? Can god define you? are you your master's keeper or do you keep yourself and invite the light of life into your psyche?
Can one say they dont believe in "the devil" ( aka satan, belzeebub, lucifer ) and still hold themselves to christian values?
I think not, without the recognition and belief in one, you cannot have the other, with no bad there is no good, with no light, there is no darkness. Its all a tool of fear for those less of themselves.
God is God, lost is lost, and found is found. can you be found without knowing you were lost? Sure! Can god be God version 2.0 while the rest of the world only uses version 1.2b? Lets ask microsoft.
I think all paths walked of divinity lead to the same end. Your path is your own, you set your way and follow along when your path goes dark will your light be big enough to show you the way? The end of the path is the end for us all, doors await, choose your destiny and only then will you know where you are.
God is the only thing that has been killed more times, or so YOU as the good christian say. The druids killed god, yet they were before god, did god create man? druids were man, man killed the druids for God. God is nothing more than nothing, if you shook gods hand how would you know you found truth? If you found truth how do you know it came from YOUR GOD? Your REALm? your reality?
Lets kill god....
Lets move on......we have more important things to do, like drink starbucks and work dead end jobs where we sit in a cubicle and pray to the gods of burger king and pentium and feed the gluttonous pig that only exanquinates our existence.
Insert being into existance? twenty five cents a play....
Will you continune when your intergalactic crusade is crushed by a mothership of a bigger god?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | sideshow - 2005-10-22 3:11 PM
Can one say they dont believe in "the devil" ( aka satan, belzeebub, lucifer ) and still hold themselves to christian values?
I think not, without the recognition and belief in one, you cannot have the other, with no bad there is no good, with no light, there is no darkness. Its all a tool of fear for those less of themselves.
I guess that Satan is a fairly deeply embedded element of Christianity. He's clearly mentioned
in both the old and new testament (I just love the language surrounding him in the Book of
Job). So, I guess for consistency's sake, you'd have to accept Satan as a part of accepting
the Christian faith.
On the other hand, you can certainly discuss good and evil among men, without any
necessity to have a good god and a bad competitor. Christian values encompass
many values that are common to other religions and ethical systems. Six of the Ten
Commandments, for example, can be found in almost every religion in one form
or another. So, I think it is possible to practice "christian values" without any belief
in Satan.
From the KJV...
1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
1:10
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
1:11
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
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| Dear Sideshow,
I must confess that I did not exactly understand what you were trying to say. And, then when Brother BG replied, I do not know whether that is a response to what you wrote. However, if I only look at one of your statements which says something like: Kill god, we have more important things to do like starbucks (which I like myself), etc.
I am guessing that you are saying that people have intentionally created Philosophy and that can be given up and they can move on with things like Starbucks, etc. whatever.
No, that is not true. People have not intentionally created philosophy, exactly same as people have not intentionally created air for breathing, or people have not intentionally started breathing. Yes, people have intentionally found deep breathing exercises, aerobic exercises, etc. But that too, in a particular angle of looking at it. It can be said, that they automatically had to find these exercises, thus they did not intentionally did so. In other words,
all philosophical things automatically happen. This is because, each person, without exception, including the one who moves on with Starbucks, ultimately tries to find something which gives permanent peace, or inner peace or whatever you call it. Then, one goes in search of spirituality, and all philosophy unfolds, or one takes it from those who have found such a thing, or from those whom that person believes that they found such a thing.
Since, we talk about Sage Patanjali and Yoga on this board a lot, let me quote some of his sutras....
parinamatapasanskardukhkhairgunavrittivirodhachcha dukhameva sarvam vivekinah...
for a real wise person who has reached discrimnation of thinking, everythig in the material world seems to be sorrowful...
Lastly, for the one who moves on with Starbucks, there is no need of Philosophy. But, for the one who is hooked on to Philosophy, starbucks will not much moving!
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| kulkarnn - 2005-10-22 11:14 PMSince, we talk about Sage Patanjali and Yoga on this board a lot, let me quote some of his sutras....parinamatapasanskardukhkhairgunavrittivirodhachcha dukhameva sarvam vivekinah...for a real wise person who has reached discrimnation of thinking, everythig in the material world seems to be sorrowful...
Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?
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| sideshow - 2005-10-22 3:11 PM
Lets kill god....
And you call ME subversive? | |
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| GJ: Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?
Patanjali Yoga Sutras, 300 Before Christ, Chapter II, On the Practice. called Sadhanapada.
I can probably quote many places where this logic appears. But, that is not necessary.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You know what??? You guys need to have this book that my Father's Baptist preacher gave to me over the weekend. After attending a funeral last year and having a very *brief* phillysophical discussion about my husband's Hindu background, my Father's preacher went out and bought me the book "Jesus among other God's" by Ravi Zacharias. They presented me with this copy over the weekend at my Father's birthday party. After reading several paragraph's throughout the book, I simply cannot indulge myself in it for lack of time and interest....although, I do love the Buddha and dieties on the front cover...that was put together very nicely  IF anyone is interested in my copy, they are certainly welcomed to it as it seems to be along the lines of some of the discussions that I've seen here on this forum regarding Christians doing Yoga. | |
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| ...The lets kill god thing, either wasnt put into the correct context by me, or was taken out of context (ala by you guys)
It was sorta metaphorical ( going along with the starbucks and the worshipping of burger king and such ) sorta meaning if you took god out of the equation would people even notice as they go about their daily(and busy) lives? ...well lets say...the "idea" of god.
I agree with you BG as far as someone can have christian values with no belief in "satan" or whomever, and the 10 commandments are mostly an universal guide to living a good life, like you were saying.
I guess my thing ultimately is, as you were saying other religions may teach living a good life and not harming others, but "GOD" wont accept you if you into heaven ( or wherever ) after you die if you dont accept his son in your heart. I find this very hypocritical at most....I mean, christianity is telling me that even a buddhist monk who has never killed a bug in his entire life(lives) will not get into heaven ( if indeed reincarnation isnt an option ) all because his belief system is different? I think Im calling bull on that. There is a place of light and love people go to. this goes to that whole Druid thing...It can be a buch of different religions I just picked druids mostly cuz alot of christian holidays are done during pagan holidays, which was done on purpose in order to help convert the druids to catholisiscim ( Christmas = Yuletide, Easter=Sprint Solstice etc... ).
Do I believe in god personally? Well, no...I believe in a higher being, however i believe that its beyond the use of a name such as "god". I also feel that all beliefs lead to a higher existance, but that existance echoes back what you did with your life here.
But I think ive typed enough, I thought there was something else I was gonna say...but I cannot remember...
But before anyone takes a great offense at what i wrote, keep in mind it was a philosophical thing, it questioned or was to make u guys say...think a bit...granted I know not all christian faiths are as described above, but alot of em do seem to be.....okay ummm..i guess if i remember ill add later....
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| kulkarnn - 2005-10-23 10:03 PMGJ: Wow! I thought that was only in the Bible, which says "He who increases wisdom, increases sorrow". Where in Patanjali is that?Patanjali Yoga Sutras, 300 Before Christ, Chapter II, On the Practice. called Sadhanapada.I can probably quote many places where this logic appears. But, that is not necessary.Neel Kulkarniwww.authenticyoga.org
Thanks neel. Actually I was thinking about "For in much wisdom is much grief; and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow" which is a direct quote from Ecclesiastes 1:18, supposedly written by King Solomon.
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| Hi Greenjellow,
The Patanjali passage and Ecclesiastes are saying completely different things though the wording can be misleading. In the Ecclesiate passage, Solomon is trying to get wisdom about all things "under heaven". After doing this, he realizes that more wisdom just brought more sorrow.
Patanjali would never say that more wisdom brings sorrow (unless what is regarded as wisdom is not really wisdom - this is kind of implied in the Ecclesiastes passage too). In fact wisdom [in particular rtambara prajna from nirvichara samapatti and viveka-khyati (distinction between Self and non-Self)] is very important in Patanjali's system. What Patanjali is saying in Neel's quote is that someone who gets wiser sees that even things that normal people consider pleasurable really is just future suffering. This is the same thing essentially as the Buddha's first noble truth. It doesn't mean that he is suffering more than he was before, he is in fact suffering much less,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-24 1:38 PM
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| Actually I think they're saying the same thing. That the more you study the situation, the more apparent the suffering becomes. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | No, GJ, not so. To understand the truth and the nature of all things is not suffering at all. When you are new to this practice it just seems like it, and what a humbling experience it is to see that no matter how you spin your wheels to justify or make suffering disappear, Suffering is due to Ignorance...what is amazing to me is to watch people come out of what they thought was suffering back into more suffering all because they failed to see the bigger picture and the reality of nature. This is happening every single moment in governement and polital issues in every nation. It is happening in the medical and technical industries as they *try* to eliminate suffering due to DIS-EASES and Pollution of the planet. They fix a problem only to discover the one they thought was fixed a couple of years ago has created another one. This is the reality of human nature. I got a big taste of it at my relatives house this weekend.
The challenge I have is how to co-exists with humans who fail to understand this concept as it seems to be worse and worse as we progress or should I say regress on this planet. This is what the North American Native Indians feared so many hundreds of years ago,  | |
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| Hey Sister Cyndi:
How did this lead you to all the political struggle and happenings, and suffering due to it. The sage Patanjali is saying, as I quoted before and correctly repeated by BelovedOfGod, that ...
everything in the universe, which a person aspires seems to bring suffering in the end. Suffering does not mean pain in the neck, but a kind of state of dissatisfaction, or a state of incomplete satisfaction. However, a person is actually trying to obtain a complete satisfaction (not in a business sense, but in a spritual or at least mental sense).
parinaamataapsanskaardhukhkhair gunavrittiviridhachcha dukhkhameva sarvam vivekinah.
This is for a vivekin person, who has developed discrimination (NOT ritambhara prajna, which is a very advanced stage). For others these things still bring pleasures.
krutaartham api nashtamapyanashtam tadanyasadharanatvat. .. for a completely satisfied person or realized person, the purpose of nature is satisfied, and the drushyam, that is play of nature is nashtam.. that is non-existent, whereas for others it is anashtam.. means it exists for them.
I do not know what King Solomon is saying, so I would not comment on it. Thus, what the Sage patanjali is saying is mainly in relation to a person who is practicing for spiritual liberation, and for his context. Not so much about social or political context.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| Well, as I understand it, King Solomon comes to the conclusion that everything is meaningless w/o god. This is after a very long list of various "pleasurable" activities, so it appears that they are in agreement. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Dear Brother Neel,
How did that lead me to all the political struggle and happenings...??? You are asking a very loaded question and all I have time for is in a nutshell...here goes. My belief as a Yoga Aspirant is that we are not seperate from external and internal things, which includes every aspect of our planet, the happenings whether they be political or not political, people - everything. They intertwine and are very much connected together. Of course this is not to say that I am a participant in most of the happenings and such, but I am very much connected to this realm with having children and family, I do not seperate my life from what already exists and what is happening in the world today - and I am a player to some degree. So, therefore, when you quoted Patanjali about suffering, I see this in everything that exists in the world today. The suffering part in relation to politics and such is due to man's ignorance and trying their hand to fix it. Like everytime we elect a President, they have good intentions, but somewhere along the line the truth is revealed and it is impossible to have any satisfaction because the mess is too big to clean up. If an enlightened person were put in place as a leader of this world it would be a totally different conversation.
I realize this may not make any sense to you, maybe, but, think about the Native American Indians as an example. All they had back then to live on was the land, nature and dealing with their tribes. All tribes were different and sure they fought like hell at times over their differences....but, they didn't have all this garbage and all the diversity of people and their minds to deal with like we do today. They lived by a certain code and they lived peacefully and sometimes not so peacefully but manageable between the elder's amongst themselves for all those years. The suffering that is happening in today's world and some of the suffering back then among the Native Americans is the very exact kind of suffering that Patanjali was talking about. The Native American Indian Elder's also knew about this kind of suffering and is the reason they lived on the land the way they did and why the earth lasted so much longer without all the pollution and they had trees and forests. So, that is it in a nutshell. Did you understand me Neelbhai?? | |
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| sideshow - 2005-10-24 9:01
I guess my thing ultimately is, as you were saying other religions may teach living a good life and not harming others, but "GOD" wont accept you if you into heaven ( or wherever ) after you die if you dont accept his son in your heart. I find this very hypocritical at most....I mean, christianity is telling me that even a buddhist monk who has never killed a bug in his entire life(lives) will not get into heaven ( if indeed reincarnation isnt an option ) all because his belief system is different? I think Im calling bull on that. There is a place of light and love people go to.
My beloved mother was a devout Roman Catholic. Whatever picture was just conjured in your mind about her is undoubtably wrong. My mother was an exeedingly hip, contemporary, super-learned woman who worked in a cancer research lab the last 20 years of her life with deep conviction around her faith. I used to make the same pitch to my mother (who introduced me to yoga when I was nine and philosophy and took me around the world--I say all that to make sure you understand that she was a free-thinker) that just because someone was of a different faith--surely God would recognize that they lived a pure and true life and let them into "heaven"--Right?? As I got older we stopped having this conversation--because I began to understand her perspective. She was unequivocal on the point--Yes it DID mean that they wouldn't be allowed into heaven--the word of God is clear on this point--Catholicism as a PRACTICE is as rigorous as YOGA. If you do the work you get into heaven--if you do the work you become self-realized.
They are ALL just paths...take God out of the equation, leave God in...it doesn't make a difference...it's what you do with your time while you are here. My mother was as wedded to the text of her ancients as we are to Patanjali. Catholicism, Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism....take the man-made structure/institutions of religion out of the mix and you are left with words that tell you how to behave.
My mother died 3 years ago...this is the anniversery time...not a day goes by that I don't miss her with every fiber of my being. And I hope she's in heaven.
Stacey | |
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| Dear Cyndiben:
I apologize for wrong and hasty English term I used as Political, etc. What I meant was: you are quoting about industry trying to solve disease problem, etc. Also, thanks for further explanation of your previous writing. Now, what I am saying is: What you are writing is very sensible, but that has nothing to do with the Sage Patanjali Sutra which was being discussed. Sage Patanjali is talking about a viveki or wise person who comes to know that everything ultimately does not give full satisfaction, meaning it is dukhkham - sorrow.
Neelbhai
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Neelbhai,
What Sage Patanjali is saying is exactly what we are experiencing as human beings, so in essence, yes it is the same thing. When we all decide to see that this external world is exactly that - Dukhkham, then perhaps we will be Viveki,  No need for apologies on being hasty with political terms, I understood you,  | |
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| Hello GreenJello,
I agree that they are saying the same thing in essence. That wordly pleasures and wisdoms only lead to suffering. However, wisdom is being used differently in the two cases. In Patanjali's case he means real oiveka (discrimination) and he means that someone with viveka will know that wordly pleasures lead to suffering. However King Solomon means by wisdom, "wordly wisdom". So he is saying that wordly wisdom leads to suffering. Same message, though the word wisdom or discrimination is differently used I would say.
Hello Neel,
Surely, you are not suggesting that someone with Viveka will experience more suffering than someone wihout it?
I think it is quite clear that what Patanjali is saying is that someone with Viveka will recognize that wordly pleasures just lead to suffering. Patanjali is not saying that someone with Viveka will suffer more. Viveka will reduce suffering (though of course not eliminate it).
I think you agree, but it might be a communication problem,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-10-25 2:42 PM
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| Good point sdaraio....
They are ALL just paths...take God out of the equation, leave God in...it doesn't make a difference...it's what you do with your time while you are here
Makes sense, as to why not worry if you are living a decent life. I am sure your mother was very open minded, however from my experience ( and believe me im not just talking out of my arse here... ) she sounds more like the exception rather than the definition. I as well hope that all the family members that i have lost are somewhere heaven-like...Crap there was more I was going to add, but since there is an auditor coming today it seemed to have slipped my mind with all the cleaning ive had to do at work..if it comes to me ill try to post it.
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| Hi Sdaraio,
"She was unequivocal on the point--Yes it DID mean that they wouldn't be allowed into heaven--the word of God is clear on this point--Catholicism as a PRACTICE is as rigorous as YOGA. If you do the work you get into heaven--if you do the work you become self-realized."
There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?
Please don't take offence at this. However, I am afraid that on this particular issue sideshow is right,
Regards. | |
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From Belovedofthegod:
"Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?"
This makes me so mental. I love Jesus and His principles but I get mad when Christians demonstrate arrogance. It's this kind of arrogance and belief system that turns off perspective "buyers" with a conscience and a brain. I think God loves all of us and gets disappointed when we practice destructive behavior.
Just my $0.02 ~ fifi | |
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| *Fifi* - 2005-10-25 10:07 PMThis makes me so mental. I love Jesus and His principles but I get mad when Christians demonstrate arrogance. It's this kind of arrogance and belief system that turns off perspective "buyers" with a conscience and a brain. I think God loves all of us and gets disappointed when we practice destructive behavior. Just my $0.02 ~ fifi
I also think the pushy attitude of some Christians also causes problems. Not only are they convinced you're wrong, they're going to beat you up until you agree that it's true!  The moment anybody starts using the "truth" as a weapon to cut people down, I think they've lost it.
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| Dear BelovedOfGod:
Yes, you are correct. I did not mean that viveki will suffer more, and such. What I meant was Viveki understands that it is really all suffering, whereas others may temporarily enjoy it while they are actually suffering, they come to know only when the temporary enjoyment disappears. Whereas in Viveki, he/she is not interested in temporary enjoyment, they are looking for real (that is permanent) enjoyment, that is bliss.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-25 6:18 PM
There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
Given that a mass-murderer and a person with impeccable moral behaviour who is not Catholic will both go to hell for eternity, why bother with the ethical behaviour? Just to make the transition to eternal hell more pleasant?
Please don't take offence at this. However, I am afraid that on this particular issue sideshow is right,
Regards.
Hello Beloved,
There is no middle ground in philosophies associated with yoga--if you don't get self-realized you get reborn. Being reborn again and again and again can be perceived as being in "hell". One chooses ethical behavior because it is the right thing to do. Please explain how you see Sideshow being correct in this manner.
No offense taken.
Stacey | |
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| Dear Sdaraio,
"There is no middle ground in philosophies associated with yoga--if you don't get self-realized you get reborn. Being reborn again and again and again can be perceived as being in "hell". One chooses ethical behavior because it is the right thing to do. Please explain how you see Sideshow being correct in this manner."
Being reborn and going to hell in the Catholic sense is extremely different. If you go to hell, you are stuck there for eternity. You have no way to get out. With rebirth, you won't be reborn forever, eventually you might take to the practice of yoga or something else that leads to liberation.
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
So in yoga not getting self-realized does not mean eternal condemnation and even if you are not a yogi you can get a good rebirth,
Regards. | |
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| Hi Neel,
Then we are in agreement! 
Regards. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | belovedofthegod - 2005-10-26 1:40 PM
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
So in yoga not getting self-realized does not mean eternal condemnation and even if you are not a yogi you can get a good rebirth,
Regards.
Dear BOTG,
That is not exactly 100% correct. You may not get a better re-birth next life if you are so called *being good*, which is a personal matter and don't forget who determines what is good and bad..there is NO guarantee, you might get perfect life instead on the next life due to having your merit and then maybe the next life after that get worse re-birth. | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-26 10:40 AM
Being reborn and going to hell in the Catholic sense is extremely different. If you go to hell, you are stuck there for eternity. You have no way to get out. With rebirth, you won't be reborn forever, eventually you might take to the practice of yoga or something else that leads to liberation.
From a practical point of view, the difference is even bigger. In Yoga, the quality of afterlife will not be the same for a mass-murderer and a saintly non-Yogi. If you do good, you will get a relatively better rebirth, if you do bad, you will get a relatively worse rebirth.
Beloved,
Not to get too pedantic here--I think this is a matter of interpretation. Consider this:
According to Luke 16:19-28 (Lazarus and Dives) nobody can pass from Hell to Heaven or vice versa, and fire is not the only tormentor, thirst being another, and more that are not described; in this biblical passage it is also mentioned that the souls that are in Hell can see those that are in Heaven and vice versa, but nothing is said of the sight of God; those that are in Hell can see the happiness reigning in Heaven, and those in Heaven do not feel compassion for the others in Hell. It should be noted, however, that Jesus tells this story as a parable, and its meaning may not literally define the existence in the afterlife, but instead serve as a lesson about the dangers of wealth and the unwillingness to listen to God.
Pope John Paul II said that to correctly interpret hell we need to see it as a state of dissasociation with god rather than an actual place. Using this interpretation it is rather like being reborn over and over until we find our association with god.
I enjoy the discussion!
Stacey | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | That's so funny Stacey that you brought this up. When I was a little girl, my parents made us go to this baptist church. In fact, I even attended the private school associated with this church until the 8th grade. Once we had to watch this horrifying movie about hell. It showed everything like how you got thrown into it, what happened and so on. It was real life. You want to talk about a major impact that had on my mind when I was a child. Frankly, all this Christianity is BS from someone who grew up listening to this nonsense and the crap that gets portrayed as truth - all in the name of GOD. This is just a way that man has figured out how to control other people's minds and how to control and gain power in general. I am so happy and grateful that I found a spiritual path and had the guts to break out of the Christian faith a long time ago and tell them to stick it. (Not me literally telling them, but breaking free in my mind - KNOWING that all that was a bunch of crap) and not beneficial to me as a human being. There was nothing in the church that supported my mind, body and spirit and I fail to see anyone associated with the church having a sense of balance in that regard either. They are so full of themselves and are hypocrites. I have never once met one single Christian that was totally Egoless and Christlike - Never! But I can tell you this much, I have met some Eastern Guru's that definitely were and they walked their talk as living examples of what I knew I wanted to be like. Not to mention the soul connection with these guru's and how powerful that can be. I never felt that kind of power in a Christian Church. Take care,
Cyndi | |
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| Cyndi- Most religions have some sort of exoteric teachings designed to keep people's more baser/self instincts in line. I don't really have a problem with that, but when that's all they have I think there's a problem. I can't really speak to your experiences with various religious leaders, but I think that there are good people involved in all branches. Some of the nicest, and some of the nastiest people I've even met, I met in Church. Unfortunately, it seems to be the pushy, annoying ones who are making all the waves.
I also think that part of the problem with the Christian approach is that everybody feels like they _should_ go. People who feel like they _should_ go to yoga generally stop coming. So you tend to get the remainder who really enjoy what they're doing, and get something out of it. Same thing with a lot of Eastern religions, there just isn't that level of _should_ involved. So the people who are into it, are there because they're getting something out of it directly. It's not a social club in disguse.
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| Hey Cindy! I'm so glad you responded to my post--we finally get to meet virtually. Hi! I love your new avatar and appreciate your perspective on these boards.
If we are trying to have a philosophical conversation then I think we have to take the man made "church" institution out of the picture. Religious institutions are fallible because they are made by people and people are fallible. I was interested in Sideshow's original question of "killing God" and looking at where we find God in its many manifestation through religous texts and then Beloved got me going.
Anyway-I'm in agreement--church as institution is nuts. Luckily, it was NEVER forced on me--the moment I said--I'm not going--I never had to go again. No guilt, no questions, no pushing. How amazing is that?
Stacey | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Stacey,
Glad to meet you too - virtually?? Okay, so yes we can all agree that it is the institution, I think? My Indian husband asked me the other day when my Father gave me that book that was bashing Hinduism and Buddhism, written by an Indian, he asked, "How come in Christianity Jesus was the only one enlightened?" In our culture there we have so many enlightened persons. To me that really says quite a bit. In fact, in Christianity, if you are enlightened you are condemed and evil, in other cultures, it is revered and sacred. That's a relief for a person like me, I always felt like I was doomed to hell forever when I was forced into religion growing up. I had a taste of it the other day spending time with my family. I see their suffering and all I can do is be an example. That in itself blows their minds and the other thing that blows them away is that for my age I look 20 years younger and healthier than they do. That Bikram yoga sure does reverse the aging process,
P.S. Stacey, I have to tell you this. When I was growing up in the Christian church/school, in 3rd and 4th grade my best friend's name was Stacey.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-10-27 9:29 AM
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| Wow! 3 pages all on my little prose!?? im shocked....
Well onto it, Im going to hopefully try to make some points but after reading all the replies my head is swimming a bit....
God is just a big kid with an antfarm I heard that quote on a movie the other day, and honestly felt a bit of irony wash over me and gave myself a chuckle...I myself was never forced by my parents to apply my faith to any strict religious code. Rather my mother ( who took witchcraft courses throughout college... ) Made me go to a lutheran church up through my confirmation, and that very same day after church she sat me down and said, i have given you a religious foundation its totally up to you what path you choose. I DID continue on with the "church" thing for about another year or so, and basically found out, even if you were inside the walls of a church where you should be accepted as you are; full of sin and condemed unless you repent....almost every other person's "god" was still better than yours. unless you were more hypocritical than the last person. Now, I really REALLY REALLY was open minded about religion and such...I ended up talking with one of the youth leaders at a church function about why he ended up talking over coffee with a satanist while doing mission work in sweden, and he said
"because they are still people, and human, and I will still treat them how would want to be treated, just because our religions are different doesnt make him less of a person."
I say : thats a good way to look at things.
The conversation goes on, and i end up saying ( within about 5 minutes of the satanist thing ) Im not sure what i believe which is why im going to these church functions, to try to find my own answers....
at this point he blatantly just said "you will be going to hell unless you accept jesus into your heart"
That night at the talent show, he did a skit with some kids about a bus crash, and the last kid didnt get into heaven even though he went to church with his (now)dead friends...because the guy playing st. peter says, you wont get into heaven because you didnt accept jesus into your heart.....
Im totally like WTF is that, a direct attack on me, because im here QUESTIONING which is exactly what jesus was accepting and understanding of?
Needless to say i was done after that.
Im sure the educated lot such as yourselves are aware that over 90% of the world's war are stemmed from religion...ideally whose religion/god is better.
I ended up for a while under a psuedo-theory that devil worship or satanism ( which, satanism is NOT the same thing as devil worship... ) was better to have as a religion than having NO belief system at all. My justification was at least you are getting something out of your existance and have an idea of where you are going to end up when the flame of your life gets extinguished.
I personally dont find the bible in any of its current forms anything but someone elses interpritation of what god should be: King James ( I.E. the king james version ) had his scholars beheaded if they did not write the bible in the way he wanted it written.
I have heard (and gotten confirmation from a number of good religious sources) that jesus went and studied with the Jewish mystics for YEARS before even ever having disciples.
Speaking of Jesus; here is what I think ( at least right now.. ) He was a very kind and caring man full of light, and love, however he was the worlds first and greatest prestitigitator ( i.e. illusionist ) however he used his "magic" to show the world how it can be a better place through compassion, or even he used his skill as a tool for another means of enlightement.
As far as these ideas becoming organized and requestioning you as a member of the elite ones that will gain entrance into heaven ( bumper sticker: In case of Rapture this car will lose its driver! ) by putting your money into the coffers every sunday as a means to hopefully buy your way in....is the god that man created in HIS image.....
k, i went off there for a bit...sorry...but it happens.... | |
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| There is an important difference though. In the types of philosophy that got associated with yoga, if you don't get self-realized, you take birth again. "Won't get into heaven" seems to be a nice euphemism for "will go to hell" since there is no middle ground on this in Catholic theology. Not just that, but it means "will go to hell" for eternity. This is an enormous difference; if you don't get self-realized now, you do not go to hell for eternity.
actually, there are numerous 'middle grounds' in catholicism from various levels of hell, to limbo, to purgatory, and then into the different 'layers' of heaven (via beatification). this is where the idea 'seventh heaven' comes from.
it is commonly believed that those people who are 'good people' but not catholic/christian/believers are generally 'in limbo.' this theologically takes two forms--either a place of eternal rest or sleep or it's a place that one can move out of and into purgatory, a space in the afterlife where one works on or is purged of sins and made ready for the process of beatification and acceptance into heaven. Most catholics/christians/believers who are not self realized/actualized go into various stages of purgatory in preparation for beatification. And many people of other religions who are not christian/catholic/etc go into purgatory as well.
and, even more uniquely, there are ideas in catholicism that you can work your way out of hell, etc. and, even better, that none of these things exist as places, but rather as states of being, and therefore one can always move between them depending upon our perspective, our work, etc.
for me personally, and as is accepted by the vatican, it is largely a reflection of the nature of the work that we must do for enlightenment--we have to face our inner hells, limbos, purgatories, and embrace our inner heaven, our enlightenment. it's not an easy task.
to me, the eastern idea of multiple lives and the western ideas of the afterlife are mirrors: one mirror reflects that one is born again and has multiple lives to learn lessons; the other mirror reflects that after this life, there is still a process of learning that takes place such that one can eventually become enlightened. both show the process of spiritual discipline to enlightenment and notice the nature and difficulty of the work involved--that some of us have to work out of harder and darker places than others (consider someone trying to overcome severe drug addiction--the drug addiction was the hell they were coming out of, the process of recovery is the purgatory, and in time, they'll self actuallize and live in a heavenly, enlightened state). | |
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| I was always told purgatory was a place you sit and wait until the other living family members have paid enough to the catholic church so that your way is bought into heaven....
I like the last paragraph you typed up there zoey...er zoebird... | |
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| now that i've read the whole stream, i not entirely sure how to respond to it.
first, i think it is ok to say that most of the world's wars are fought over wealth and power, with religion being used as an excuse or a backdrop (as is happening now with the US government and the situation with the 'axis of evil' or whatever 'they're' calling it these days). it seems a fairly thin veil in regards to the current wars, as they are obviously about power, money, and oil, and not about god, weapons of mass destruction, or liberating people for democracy or peace or whatever other propagandist information is tossed around.
second, i can completely understand that people have had negative experiences with individual christians and with christian churches and therefore this, to them, reflects christians and christianity as a whole. since it is the dominant faith practice in the west, this is not surprising. in the east, many of my friends who are from there (india, pakistan, vietnam, laos, thailand, china, japan, and korea) say that they have the same problem with buddhism, hinduism, islam, and a myriad of other specialized traditions from the region. many of them 'went to services' without actually believing in what they were doing or understanding it. many of them were afraid of the more extreme images of suffering or difficulty in their culture (i mean, quite frankly, Kali can be daunting). many of them have been in corrupt groups and have also met corrupt leaders and individuals in their eastern communities. Essentially, their experience is reflected here, just switch the religious name from 'christianity' to whatever else (any other religion).
and, in light of this experience, they often become christians. for many of us who value the eastern religions so highly (and often so romanticly) wonder why they become christians--often the same way that they wonder why a christian would become buddhist (or whatever else). And it's not based in fear of hell or whatever else, but rather 'why would you join something that isn't peaceful?" this was a direct question from a friend of mine, who told me about a particularly violent and corrupt buddhist organization in japan--which put her off of that religion forever. She became catholic because she said "i've never felt more at peace than when i am participating in mass. every catholic that i have met has always been smiling, giving, and deeply peaceful and compassionate. this is everything that buddhism promised, but never gave. here it is, in catholicism, so of course i joined!" it really stayed with me.
but, i also have to beg the question about religion for myself, considering i have as much love for catholicism (and thereby christianity) as i do for islam, judaism, buddhism, hinduism/vedanta, and a myriad of other practices. Of course, i cannot practice all of them, but i find that i am deeply informed by them (as i do read various scriptures, sing various songs, say various prayers, etc) and i also adopt certain ideas and practices from each of them that i then incorporate into my catholic practices. i thereby consider myself essentially catholic, who is also buddhist who also practices yoga.
i also dislike being held in disdain for maintaining my faith practice in christianity. i, too, find it to be a valuable practice in which Jesus calls us to enlightenment, in which our elders call us to enlightenment. Many of our mystics and our elders and our saints were enlightened, loving, and beloved people--and i certainly seek to be like them and emulate them. Of course, i find people like this in all religions, just as i find corrupt people in all religions. Instead of blaming the religion, though, i tend to put the responsibility on the individual.
and certainly, i don't fault anyone for leaving. certainly, i do not believe that christianity is for everyone nor is it important for everyone to be christian in order to find enlightenment or 'go to heaven' (though, again, i don't necessarily believe in heaven as a place, so much as the nondual state with God). i do not believe that people who have chosen other paths are wrong. | |
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| no, that is incorrect. purgatory is the place in the afterlife where you are purged of your sins before you can enter heaven. this is important since no sin can enter heaven. there have been many various depictions of this, but the easiest to grasp is probably CS Lewis's "The Great Divorce" which is a great concept of heaven, hell, and purgatory, IMO. Lewis was, of course, a catholic and many of his works are well loved.
for me, if purgatory is a place, i think of it as councelling. when i was in councelling, i would go to an office where my councellor was and talk about what i did, what i was doing, what happened to me, how i responded, how i continue to respond. My councellor would ask pointed questions, offer me homework exercises, and away i would go to work on my stuff. i was able to undo a lot of negative behavoir patterns and harmful things through that, which allowed me to live a happier life.
so, purgatory is, for me, that time with God or whomever when i sit and go through where i was going awry and where i was going right and how maybe i didn't go far enough into that--and why. and then undoing that--so that i'm truly liberated to be my Self.
but then, again, it's more of a state, because during that time in councelling (and like now even though i'm nto in councelling, but i do confession and i rely on the contemplative process) it was a lot of work and self reflection and personal striving to do better and be better and be mySelf more and more so that i could be more for my Self and more for the world--so that i could be realized and actuallized. I think that's what God wants for us in this lifetime (or any lifetime) which is why the spiritual disciplines are so important.
but, as to the concept of your living families and money and all of that, it's not entirely off the marker. intercessory prayer is powerful and i do pray for those who have departed and those in purgatory that they, too, may find their way to their Self and all of that, and to help ease their difficulty and struggle by sending them peace and comfort in their time of work and need.
as to the nature and use of indulgences, since (unless i read wrong) you were raised lutheran, this is something that was abused in luther's time and one of his primary grievences against the church (and rightfully so when abused), but the idea of an indulgence isn't foreign, new, or even inappropriate--in fact it comes from much older traditions and has it's mystic/esoteric importance--but luther was right about it being used wrong. Sadly, this has been taken out of it's context to mean that the whole 'indulgence' process is wrong and of course others jumped on that bandwagon and now there's tons of misinformation about it. An indulgence is a gift to the divine to help oneself or others--and this gift can be any sort of sacrifice or austerity. this is a common yogic practice (austerities for a boon), but when abused it can go awry.
indulgences can help those in purgatory (literal or figurative), as they can help any individual or group. one of my 'indulgences' that i offer is the process of adoration of the eucharist (the transubstantiated body of christ) in an overnite process which requires me to stay up and in an alert state of prayer for many hours. This is not an easy task for me on any level, but i know that my question or need will be indulged when i preform these austerities. again, it's reflected in other cultures as well. | |
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| She became catholic because she said "i've never felt more at peacethan when i am participating in mass. every catholic that i have methas always been smiling, giving, and deeply peaceful and compassionate.this is everything that buddhism promised, but never gave. here it is,in catholicism, so of course i joined!" it really stayed with me.
That's a very interesting observation. More importantly, she joined for the best reason of all, it worked for her. All to often the people in their culture's religious centers are going to be the people who have taken what they have been given, instead of doing the heavy lifting of examining and trying things out for themselves. If I ever return to church, I think I will be a 100% better Christian, because I will want to be there, and will have made an active and definite choice to be there.
Zoebird, since you've seen the way the dominate religion works in other cultures, do you also find the same level of "pushiness", and self righteousness that too many Christians in this culture exhibit? I've often wondered if this is something inherent in the religion itself, the sub-culture that's grown around it, or something to do with being the dominant religion. I just don't hear the same call to convert people, or our way is the only way in other religions. Maybe you're just going to have these sorts of things in any religion, and I'm just more familiar with Christianity.
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| Cyndi - 2005-10-27 6:26 AM
Hey Stacey,
Glad to meet you too - virtually?? As in, not in person but in a virtual space--like computerland
P.S. Stacey, I have to tell you this. When I was growing up in the Christian church/school, in 3rd and 4th grade my best friend's name was Stacey.  ! Stacey | |
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Zoebird, since you've seen the way the dominate religion works in other cultures, do you also find the same level of "pushiness", and self righteousness that too many Christians in this culture exhibit? I've often wondered if this is something inherent in the religion itself, the sub-culture that's grown around it, or something to do with being the dominant religion. I just don't hear the same call to convert people, or our way is the only way in other religions. Maybe you're just going to have these sorts of things in any religion, and I'm just more familiar with Christianity.
i would have to say yes, though i have not necessarily travelled to those nations, i have heard people of all religions speak about how those who do not embrace certain religious traditions will struggle with their path to enlightenment. I have also heard those in all religions--including christianity--who say what most of us are saying here, that one should choose the path that works for them. it really does exist 'both ways' in most religions.
what i find interesting in my own experience is that as a yoga teacher, a catholic, a buddhist practitioner for 15 years, and also one who is rather 'witchy' and leans on the wisdom of many traditions and faith practices is that i continually get 'you're going to hell' (in so many terms) from ALL sides. I've had buddhists tell me that i'm not really buddhist. Yoga practitioners tell me that i'm delusional because i embrace other traditions and i'm not 'purely' practicing yoga (vedanta, hinduism, jainism etc). i've had catholics tell me i'm not catholic, christians tell me i'm not christian, etc etc etc. I think you get the idea.
Each one of these persons or small groups of people were attempting to convince me to abandon things that work for me, that i value and love, for their singular path. Certainly, i understand the difficulty that one can see in following multiple disciplines. But, i do not see a multiplicity in my practice so much as an inherent cohesion based on that for which i am striving, as well as the intimate relationship with the Divine that i have forged over these many years of seeking an intimate relationship the Divine. This really guides where i go above all other things, and i often feel lead to the integrative and comparitive practice of multiple religious traditions. So, it is perfectly natural and certainly not hellish or purgatorial.
So, essentially, yes i do hear it from all sides--to choose their way over others.
Edited by zoebird 2005-10-29 12:27 PM
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-10-29 12:26 PM
what i find interesting in my own experience is that as a yoga teacher, a catholic, a buddhist practitioner for 15 years, and also one who is rather 'witchy' and leans on the wisdom of many traditions and faith practices is that i continually get 'you're going to hell' (in so many terms) from ALL sides. I've had buddhists tell me that i'm not really buddhist. Yoga practitioners tell me that i'm delusional because i embrace other traditions and i'm not 'purely' practicing yoga (vedanta, hinduism, jainism etc). i've had catholics tell me i'm not catholic, christians tell me i'm not christian, etc etc etc. I think you get the idea.
Zoebird,
Perhaps you are NOT anything, maybe all those people are right to some degree. I wouldn't let it bother me, there is a reason why some of us have been exposed, per se, to all types of religions and spirituality. You should study and read some of Sathya Sai Baba's material..he supports people like us and you would be so surprised at what you discover. Besides, all the *real* guru's I've been around do not say things like that - period, cause they know what we know. Take care,
Cyndi | |
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| I do wonder why some people are more exposed to differing religious backgrounds than others. My DD has been in contact with a lot of different religious schools of thought and I can't help feeling that there is a reason for it. When she was very young she had a friend who took her to a mainstream protestant Sunday School, then in elementary school her best friend was from a family who was very much involved in the Salvation Army, middle school were the the Jehovah's Witness years, then in high school she hung around with some great kids who are Mormons. Next thing you know, not long out of high school she meets her first serious boyfriend who is Jewish! From a family where dad worships at the altar of Sport and mom who thinks you just honour all traditions and live a moral, ethical life, this kid was not going to get this education at home Interesting, eh? | |
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| Hi Cyndi,
"That is not exactly 100% correct. You may not get a better re-birth next life if you are so called *being good*, which is a personal matter and don't forget who determines what is good and bad..there is NO guarantee, you might get perfect life instead on the next life due to having your merit and then maybe the next life after that get worse re-birth."
I was simplifying when I said "being good". In reality your rebirth is said to be determined in large part by the desire one most strongly wants to fullfill. The mind will pick the body that best can carry out what it desires the most. With this the strength of awareness also is important of course. The life after that you could get a worse rebirth. a better rebirth, a similar rebirth or no rebirth at all.
Hi Sdaraio,
This kind of interpretation is already better but the main problem remains as far as I can see...
"Pope John Paul II said that to correctly interpret hell we need to see it as a state of dissasociation with god rather than an actual place. Using this interpretation it is rather like being reborn over and over until we find our association with god."
But thats the key difference, finding association with god. If you are in hell, you cannot "pass to heaven" as you say, so you cannot ever find association with god - the suffering from dissociation will remain eternally. In philosophies associated with Yoga, you can and you will eventually find this association.
For the same reason, once your in this state of dissociation called hell, it doesn't make any difference whether you were a mass-murder or a non-believing saint. In Yoga, positively-motivated action will bring about your association with god more quickly so its very useful whether you practice yoga or not,
Regards. | |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-10-29 3:24 But thats the key difference, finding association with god. If you are in hell, you cannot "pass to heaven" as you say, so you cannot ever find association with god - the suffering from dissociation will remain eternally. .....
For the same reason, once your in this state of dissociation called hell, it doesn't make any difference whether you were a mass-murder or a non-believing saint.
And this, I imagine, is why so many former church-going Christians have gone to different belief systems. That, along with the idea that the mass murderer and the non-believing saint can each atone and confess to God on their death beds and still get into heaven. Not that this is exclusive to Christians. I know there are many Buddhists (etc.) who live very unethical lives and still expect a good result (afterlife, whatever) because they appeared to live a pious life. The difference is that we know and they know that all their actions in their lives will be held accountable, not just those they chose to show to the world. | |
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| Zoebird- Have you gotten any better at picking out the ones who are going to tell you you're going to <insert religious penalty here> yet? Is there a certain personality type, or some sort of action that trigger this sort of thing. Personally, I feel I've been a little to timid, since I've never been thrown out of a religious group, guess I need to try harder. I'm going to make sure my next guru has been tossed out of multiple congregations.
I agree with Glenda, there are some serious loopholes in the various religious laws. Which I think is a huge hint that they're not necessarily the exact will of god. This is part of the reason I'm not to worried about what the various authorities try to prove. Generally they're interpretation conflicts with something else, which just shows me that somebody's wrong, and it can't be God, if there is such a person.
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| GJ:
am i any better at picking out the types? no, not really. here's my thing. i love to talk about religion in general, about personal growth and expression, and abuot my experience. in order to find like-minded people, i have to be bold enough to express my opinion in groups where some or all or most of the people may be completely put off by the way i go about it or whatever.
but, the thing is this. Lets say you asked me "hey, do you believe in God?" how would i answer that? i can co easy--yes, no, whatever. i can go difficult--how are you defining god, what do you want to know, etc. usualy, i take a quick intuitive listen and say--ok, how to respond? and then i respond accordingly.
now, i've never been kicked out of a church. it simply hasn't happened. technically, i suppose i cuold be excommunicated and all that, but it's a whole lot of fuss over nothing and there's nothing 'uncatholic' about what i'm doing. so, no one has a problem. But say i go to catholic bible study. they start talking about this or that. that's cool, i dig theology and scripture study--heck, it's why i dig luther so much. i mean, the dude was onto something and it works for me. i don't need to be lutheran to get it. but anyway.
so, someone comes in and says 'no, this is the way it is' and gets uppity about my job or the fact that i'm wearing a buddhist prayer wheel (which i twirl constantly) on my necklace or whatever else. usually, i'm pretty open abotu where i am and what i'm doing, and others see that as an opportunity to confront me or save me or whatever else.
oh, and i don't back off. i'd rather engage, because then we can learn from each other. i always gain something from the experience.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-10-30 1:37 PM
now, i've never been kicked out of a church. it simply hasn't happened. technically, i suppose i cuold be excommunicated and all that, but it's a whole lot of fuss over nothing and there's nothing 'uncatholic' about what i'm doing. so, no one has a problem
Oh Zoey,
That's nothing, wait till you get kicked out of a Buddhist Temple, YES, that did happen to me by Buddhist Americans, | |
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| i've been asked to leave various smaller groups--like bible study groups or whatever. that's no big deal. and i ultimately left a local buddhist meditation group because i felt that they were being really pushy about me not doing all the catholic/yoga/whatever stuff. so, my husband and i shook tail feathers out of that one.
maybe i just leave before i'm asked! | |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, I was never asked to leave, the Americans just made it so unbearable that I had no choice but to leave. It's really funny, the monks would call me up and say come get us, we want to spend a week at your house, or I'd drive them to the other Buddhist temple in NYC where they were very happy and were around other Tibetans. I think people are just plain ignorant and stupid when it comes to religion...and it seems like its getting worse and worse, which is why I stay at home and I hate organizations of any kind, | |
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| It's funny to read Zoebird and Cyndi's experiences with Buddhists. When I lived in SF a few years ago the most hypocritical and annoying people were white people pretending (or "trying", I should say) to be Buddhists. I studied Tibetan Buddhism for a year in SF and loved it but found the white people in particular to be unbearably annoying. Talk about an angry, self-loathing bunch of elitists! I think they were trying to be cool or something. The Asian and non-white Buddhist practitioners I've met weren't annoying or pushy or exclusive at all. They simply practice Buddhism.
The moral of the story is that every religion has annoying people that distort things and make it unappetizing to others but all in all religions are there to serve people and keep us sane. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Geez Fifi, your story sounds exactly like mine. I bet we could have an evening full of fun discussing this topic,
My favorite was when they all shaved their heads and put on burgundy robes. Then they would go out into the world to their jobs and such and sometimes acting so incredibly stupid, or they would only wear the robes when the big high lamas would come around, just to try to impress the lamas. I swear, the monks would laugh at them sometimes because they were totally outrageous, although, I have to say the monks were ALWAYS supportive of them no matter how outrageous they were. They were the ones with the real kindness and compassion. Your right, the non-white and asians did seem most sincere about the practice. | |
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| i found the same issue with local buddhists that i did with local yogins--it was more about apperances and accoutriments than it was about actual practice. it doesn't matter if your meditation was working for you, but rather how much your cushion cost! it was really quite strange.
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| zoebird - 2005-10-31 4:03 PMi found the same issue with local buddhists that i did with local yogins--it was more about apperances and accoutriments than it was about actual practice. it doesn't matter if your meditation was working for you, but rather how much your cushion cost! it was really quite strange.
Yeah, I think Mr. Iyengar used to call those guys the Look Good, Feel Good, no Good bhogis. Frankly, I haven't got much patience for these sorts of fools. They'll find out how wrong they are with their tower starts to fall.......
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2005-10-31 4:03 PM
i found the same issue with local buddhists that i did with local yogins--it was more about apperances and accoutriments than it was about actual practice. it doesn't matter if your meditation was working for you, but rather how much your cushion cost! it was really quite strange.
I wonder what they would think about my cushion?? I paid high $$'s for mine, it is now worn to the hilt and I have no plans on buying a new one, just so they can be happy??? I don't think so, | |
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Expert Yogi
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| New converts to anything are usually pretty annoying. A new non-smoker is the worst! They even seem to be able to annoy lifelong non-smokers, don't they? But yeah, wannabes and try-hards (as my kids call them) are a real pain.   | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-10-31 4:52 PM zoebird - 2005-10-31 4:03 PMi found the same issue with local buddhists that i did with local yogins--it was more about apperances and accoutriments than it was about actual practice. it doesn't matter if your meditation was working for you, but rather how much your cushion cost! it was really quite strange. I wonder what they would think about my cushion?? I paid high $$'s for mine, it is now worn to the hilt and I have no plans on buying a new one, just so they can be happy??? I don't think so,
Oh, I'm in even worse shape than that. I don't even HAVE a pillow.... Maybe I should ask Lord Buddha to bring me one.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Wanna buy one of my old ones GJ...then I'll go buy a new one, | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-11-01 5:55 PMWanna buy one of my old ones GJ...then I'll go buy a new one,
I don't know, can you guarantee instant Enlightment if I buy it?
In all seriousness, I don't have pillow because I don't need one.
I'm also almost anti-status when it comes to such things. If I knew the local circle was impressed with such things, I'd go to goodwill, and buy the stinkiest, skankiest, god-awful pillow I could find.....
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | GreenJello - 2005-11-01 8:59 PM
I don't know, can you guarantee instant Enlightment if I buy it?
You might get some kind of enlightment, like you might realize that the cushion is worn out, although the Buckwheat is still firm in some places, You might realize that you would of rather had a different color, rather than burgundy or black, Sorry, no guarantees here....buy it at your own risk. Although, it might fit your criteria to irritate some Buddhist Yuppie, But, you should know, I've been sitting on those cushions for many years, they have traveled and sat in many of Buddhist teachings with high lama's from Tibet and I've had many personal tender moments with myself on these magic cushions,
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| Nah, on second thought, I'm not too proud to sit on the ground. | |
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| i prefer the floor myself. it's rather odd, but i when i have had opportunity to use a cushion, it actually is uncomfortable for me, whereas sitting on the floor feels better.
so, i could choose between being distracted by an uncomfortable and expensive pillow, or being comfortable and being distracted by monkey mind. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well actually either way is also okay with me too!! Although it doesn't make you a *better* meditation practitioner to sit on the floor without the cushion, and it doesn't make you a better practitioner if you do sit on a cushion or an expensive one at that!!! The most important aspect to all of this is that you need to be comfortable - period. If it means having a new expensive buckwheat cushion, or sitting on the floor or better yet, if you really like that fuzzy hot pink one, GO FOR IT!!!!!!!! There's a really nice blue one I've been thinking about and it goes with my decor and it works great when you have guests that like to sit on the floor instead of furniture...I like to use both and I like to have cushions available for any time I feel the need for one.
Ciao,
Cyndi - who's decided to keep both her cushions and GJ...go buy a new one, | |
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| true-dat!
as i'm thinking about my home studio, i'm also thinking about props. i'm thinking about bolsters, blankets, and mats. why not zafus? i'm thinking that it would be cool to knit my own blankets. i can't knit for crap, but i still think it would be cool. i might have to learn how to knit first though, you know? there's a kit over at the craft store that i could try. i love DIY!
i've just started teaching a new senoirs class and we do chair yoga. a lot of things seated on the chair; a lot of things standing and using the chair for support (for balance postures), and then we find our way to the floor and roll around a bit. it's all good, because many people prefer to meditate in a chair.
so hey, whatever. | |
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phillisophically challenged