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| How do I put it in words, to explain to someone the difference between Raja and other forms.
I usually say that Raja is the "Royal" yoga, known such because it is such an old style.
It is very similar to so many other forms though... people ask me if it's the same as Power, Hatha, etc... and I think I confuse people when I say "Yes and NO" which is understandable.
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| As I understand it, Raja yoga is also refered to as Classical yoga,(different than Classical "Hatha" yoga, which refers more to postural practice)and is a distillation of of yogic principles by Patanjali in the Sutra. Raja yoga is Patanjali's yoga,or the eight limbs. | |
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| Patanjali's yoga sutras apparently is Raja yoga, which includes asana and the other limbs(though Raja yoga is not actually directly mentioned in the sutras)....ultimately though, isn't Raja yoga meditation? Yoga of the mind. That is how I see it anyway. Many years ago I practiced 'Raja yoga' with the Brahma Kumaris (their interpretation of it?) . It was mainly meditation, focussing on a picture of 'god', a point of light like a distant sun on a red backround...... No asana. Lots of philosphy and diet. But the whole Brahma Kumaris thing is a whole different topic I think.....
Edited by loli 2005-09-11 4:26 PM
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| here's the way that i say it. Basicly, there are four primary types of yoga or paths of yoga: bhakti, jnana, karma, and raja. All of these yogas share elements, but prize some elements over others.
bhakti yoga is the path of devotion, which does a lot of chanting and ritualistic devotional practices. many bhakti yogins also practice asana, and of course the philosophical underpinnings of yoga, and meditation and many other spiritual discplines, but their primary focus or the way they approach all of these practices is as an aspect of devotional worship.
jnana yoga is the path of knowledge. These yogins focus on scriptural study and the disciplines related to the written and oral wisdom traditions and practices that help develop understanding in these areas. contemplative prayer, debate and discussion, study are large aspects of this path of yoga. of course, these yogins may also practice any of the other spiritual disciplines, but for the purpose or with the focus and intention of increasing wisdom or understanding in relationship to their tradition and it's place and application in the modern world.
karma yoga is the path of service. These yogins focus on social justice and community service, offering all activities as service toward another. As with those on other paths, these yogins may practice other disciplines, but do so with the intention or with the focus of using it to serve others or improving themselves so that they may better serve others.
raja yoga is called 'royal' yoga and is the eight-fold path. Outlined in Patanjali's sutras, this process outlines the 8 folds, limbs, or steps--the primary disciplines to reach samadhi. Often, this process is for the purpose of God Realization through the process of disciplines, whereas the other paths focus on a particular area of disciplines and certain focuses on those disciplines and within other disciplines of the yoga system for God Realization. Yamas, Niyamas, Asanas, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dhrana, Dhyana, Samadhi are the 8 steps. The first three steps are the outward quests that heal the body and bring harmony on the physical plane. The next two steps (pranayam and pratyahara) are the inner quests during which the yogin learns to control the breath and therefore calm the mind. The last three stages are the quest for the soul, the aspects that brings the individual in harmony with himself/herself and with God who resides within and without. | |
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| Which types of yoga actually follow these four paths? Do you have ideas on some?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Here is an interesting story about the four types of yoga... Guana, Bhakthi, Karma and Kriya. I posted this before a while back, but here it is again. Enjoy,
One day, one guana yogi, one bhakthi yogi, one karma yogi, and kriya yogi were walking together. Usually these four people can never be together, because guana yogi has total disdain for every other yoga; it is the yoga of intelligence Normally, an intellectual person, a thinking person has complete disdain for everybody else. A bhakthi yogi, full of emotion and love, thinks all this guana, karma and kriya yoga is just a waste of time. Just love God and it will happen. The karma yogi thinks that everybody is lazy and that they have all kinds of fancy philosophies; what needs to be done is work. One must work and work and work. The kriya yogi just laughs at everything. The whole existence is energy. If you don’t transform your energy, whether you long for God or you long for anything, nothing is going to happen.
So they can’t be together, but today they were walking together. Then it started to rain. They were in the forest and it started raining. They started running, looking for shelter, and there they found an ancient temple which just had a roof – no walls on the sides. In the center, there was a Linga. So these people went inside the temple for shelter. The storm became more and more furious and it started blowing in torrents. The fury of the storm was getting into the temple so they went closer and closer and closer to the Linga. There was no other way to be because it was just blasting them from all sides. Then it became very furious. There was no other place; the only way they could get some protection was for all four to hug the Linga. Suddenly they felt something enormous happening. A huge presence, a fifth presence was there. Then all of them said, “Why now? For so many years we have pursued you and nothing happened; why now?” Then Shiva said, “At last the four of you got together. I have been waiting for this to happen for a long time.”
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| well, this is where it gets fun. It's actually sort of like a wheel.
the center of the wheel is god realization. The outside of the wheel is all yoga. And the inside of the wheel are the four types. Inside the four types there can be any number of disciplines.
each 'path' is really kind of individual. Within a path, say Karma Yoga, the individual may practice asana or may not. But when they do practice asana, they practice it for the purpose of gaining access to a greater capacity for selfless ervice, which brings them closer to God realization through the karma yoga path.
the raja yoga path may practice the eight steps/folds/limbs, but may also really dig mantra practice. the purpose of their mantra practice is to help with the process of the steps (3 outward, two inward, and three God/soul quests) where as a bhakti yogin is using mantra as devotional practice to gain god realization.
And, of course, there's lots of blending and crossover because it's all yoga and of course, wheels spin! what do spokes look like when wheels spin? All you see is the center, still and steady, and all you see is the outside going round and round. The spokes are a blur, right? | |
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| Raja yoga refers to meditation. That's the simplest answer. Hatha yoga is preparation for Raja yoga. | |
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| The answer to this question is not as simple as it seems. It is like this: When Newton invented law of gravitation, Physics was had branches such as Electricity, Sound, Mechanics (where the law of gravitation is important), etc. Then there was Chemistry, Inorganic, and Organic. And, Biology, Botany and Zoology. But, now there is a subject which is called Neurosurgery, and this involves Physics, Electronics, Computers, Art, Mechanics, Biology, etc. And, one does not what to call what. I heard a Plastic Sergeon called Cosmetologist, may not have a lot of Biology knowledge, but he shall have good artistic and little bit of physiological knowledge of the part of his expertise.
To answer this question, today, one has to set a basis. If one is looking from the Market point of view today, we use terms such as Power, etc. If you are using the methods of spiritual realization, we use terms such as Bhaktiyoga, Karmayoga, Rajayoga, and Jnanayoga. But, they are never separated, they all go together, with one being dominant. And, all culminate in Bhaktiyoga, without which self realization is impossible. But, Bhaktiyoga does not mean only shaving head and singing on roads. It is all within. Anyway, Patanajali Yoga Sutras are the Comprehension of the entire Science of Yoga as at his time, in 300 B.C. which is distillation of Vedic Philosophy, but more focus on practice than understanding. In Patanjali, it already includes Bhakti. In Vedas, there is more focus on understanding, which includes Jnana. In Vedic Chanting, there is meditation already and also bhakti. Karma theory is mostly wrongly understood as performing charitable acts. Karma theory can mean NO charitable acts. Karmayoga mostly deals with performing actions, whatever they are coming as per one's destiny, called as duty, but without asking for rewards and without egotism. Generally, such acts can be done only when one is doing charitable work, and that is the association of charity. One can actually do charitable acts with egotism or self rewards, and then it is not Karmayoga.
Now, Hathayoga, came about much later in time, as a terminology. Its practice contains disciplined approach which culminates in Rajayoga, which is meditation. Hathayoga provides an easier tool to approach Rajayoga. Hathayoga does NOT recommend one to do all or lot of Asanas. One may do it for their interest, but that is not a prescription. Hathayoga contains mainly four things: Asana practice, Kriyas, Pranayama, and Mudras.
Rajayoga asanas are not same as Hathayoga Asanas. In Rajayoga, Asana refers to a posture of meditation.
Lastly, Shrimad Bhagavadgita is the MOST comprehensive text in the world which describes all classical Yoga Practices in one place. Patanjali is the most succint Yoga Science work, and is totally in congruence with Shrimad Bhagavadgita, but is not as comprehensive.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| It isn't that complicated.
To be precise, Raja Yoga refers to meditation as codified by Patanjali in the Yoga Sutra. This is the generally accepted meaning of the term as commonly used. (It is also used by Brahama Kumaris as the name for their brand of meditation techniques, which I am not familiar with).
For an overview on the topic, try this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtanga_or_Raja_Yoga
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| Dear Shivaram:
Let us say what you stated is correct. Now, before the Sage Patanjali coded the yogasutras: a) What will be your definition of Rajayoga? b) Does Brahmakumari define Rajayoga exactly same as Patanjali? c) Is there a word Rajayoga in Patanjali?
To make it more simple, I mean NON complicated: Patanjali system is NOT pure Rajayoga. Patanjali's system is a Codified Comprehensive Science of Entire Yoga, meaning all Yoga paths. It is later called as Rajayoga, and has more emphasis on Meditation, but that meditation is NOT done only in ONE particular way, which I call today's market.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Hi Neal,
In answer to your questions:
kulkarnn - 2005-11-17 10:49 PM
Let us say what you stated is correct. Now, before the Sage Patanjali coded the yogasutras:
a) What will be your definition of Rajayoga?
One would have to look to the Gita. However, Patanjali greatly expanded upon that text, and has been the acknowledged authoritative source to the present day.
b) Does Brahmakumari define Rajayoga exactly same as Patanjali?
I am not familiar with their teachings. Their emphasis is squarely on meditation, but I don't know if they cite Patanjali as their source or not. We would have to enquire with them.
c) Is there a word Rajayoga in Patanjali?
Patanjali simply used the word "Yoga". One might therefore conclude that the experiences described would be the culmination of all yogic practices. This may be so, but it is debatable simply because there are other paths, ie Bhakti, Jnana, Karma etc. which also lead to the same goal.
"Raja Yoga" is what such authorities as Swamis Sivananda, Vivekananda, Rama, their disciples, subsequent schools and commentators, and numerous other authorities refer to by the term.
They all cite the Yoga Sutra as the authoritative treatment of Raja Yoga.
To make it more simple, I mean NON complicated: Patanjali system is NOT pure Rajayoga.
You are the first I have read to make this claim.
It is widely acknowledged that at some point the various systems of yoga merge, and the boundaries become less distinct. However, the definitions of the basic paths are still valid and practical.
Patanjali's system is a Codified Comprehensive Science of Entire Yoga, meaning all Yoga paths.
While the practices outlined in the Yoga Sutra mentions aspects of Bhakti and Hatha generally, they do not go into detail on these topics as do other texts dealing with them more specifically.
The Yoga Sutra IS a detailed treatment on meditation, with auxiliary techniques mentioned accordingly, but not treated as thoroughly as the main topic, namely, the path to Nirodha.
It is later called as Rajayoga, and has more emphasis on Meditation, but that meditation is NOT done only in ONE particular way, which I call today's market.
As you have hinted, the path of meditation was indeed called Raja Yoga at least since the Gita / Mahabharata. It is only that the Yoga Sutra is widely recognized as the authoritative treatment on Raja Yoga. One may quibble, but IMHO it would be rather pointless. There are bigger fish to fry.
No one has said it was done in only one way. We may well take issue with the presentation of yoga and meditation in 'todays market', but that is another can of worms.
kulkarnn - 2005-11-17 12:14 PM
Now, Hathayoga, came about much later in time, as a terminology. Its practice contains disciplined approach which culminates in Rajayoga, which is meditation. Hathayoga provides an easier tool to approach Rajayoga. Hathayoga does NOT recommend one to do all or lot of Asanas. One may do it for their interest, but that is not a prescription. Hathayoga contains mainly four things: Asana practice, Kriyas, Pranayama, and Mudras.
Rajayoga asanas are not same as Hathayoga Asanas. In Rajayoga, Asana refers to a posture of meditation.
This is the only part of your above statement which I can (mostly) agree with.
IMHO it's unnecessary to to complicate the issue of what is Raja Yoga when the definition in currency serves very well to illuminate students of yoga in the broader sense. It is really a very small point compared to actually understanding the system of Raja Yoga itself, and it's relationship with the other paths in a practical way.
Making the various systems of yoga comprehensible and practicable is the whole point of speaking about "Paths of Yoga" in the first place. These concepts were given to us by great masters of the arts of Yoga. We should make good use of what clarity they afford. | |
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| Raja certainly is not a posture of meditation; I have to disagree with you. The focus may be more on the meditation than the posture - but it does not mean that the posture IS a meditation. | |
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| booga - 2005-11-17 10:12 AM
Raja certainly is not a posture of meditation; I have to disagree with you. The focus may be more on the meditation than the posture - but it does not mean that the posture IS a meditation.
Hey boog,
Not sure who you were disagreeing with, but I don't think anyone was trying to say that, really.
Were you referring to Neal's comment that in Raja Yoga asana refers to the seated meditation postures?
That statement is actually correct, but it's not to say that Raja is or refers to only a posture of meditation. That is just one of the eight limbs.
Zoebird lays it out pretty well in her post, and the various paths can work together synergystically.
Also, in answer to your other question, one of the types of yoga which actually does teach the practice of all four paths is Sivananda Yoga. It is a good way to advance very quickly if one wishes to do so.
Edited by sivaram 2005-11-16 9:38 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | If you REALLY want to learn about Raja Yoga, also known as "Royal Yoga" because it presents a royal road to the integration of personality and the attainment of liberation. Swami Jyotirmayananda wrote a perfect article in his International Yoga Guide, August, 2005 issue. I'm sure you can get a back copy of his publication for only $2, but it is really the best article on this subject that I've read, with the exception of Neelbhai's statements as well,  Swami has written several books on this subject including the complete Raja Yoga Sutra's of Patajali Maharshi, with translationn and commentary. You guys would really benefit from reading this material so that you can have a true understanding of what Raja Yoga is. | |
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| Dear and Respected Shivaram and others:
I understand your point of view that in general one can use the term Rajayoga as a path of meditation in a certain circle. But, I was refering to the original post, please see it. Now, without going point by point, coming to your comments briefly:
Whether I am ther first person to state what I stated, is NOT important to me. If you study Patanjali Yoga sutras, you shall find Pranayama practice, Bhaktiyoga Practice, and ALL other practices. Why? The sage Patanjali says: yathaabhimatadhyaanadvaa... on dhyaana (I do not like the word meditation at this point, because, that means different thing to different people. In Patanjali, that is NOT what it means. It means exactly one thing. It is thus.... dhyaana.. meditation... tatra pratyayaikataanataa dhyaanam... continuation in the focussing of mind is dhyaanam..) Now, yathaa - as per .. abhimata... whatever one feels OK with. This includes all paths immediately. However, what the Sage Patanjali is concluding is : All these paths will ultimately result in peaceful mind or in other words, removal of vrittis in the chittam.
In this way, Patanjali Yoga sutras is actually a science of Yoga where the goal is : making the mind totally peaceful. And, goal is NOT meditation. Yes, the path of meditation is more enumerated, and my previous post already states that. However, the intention in Patanjali is NOT to teach the path of meditation or enumerate it. His goal is to present the science of Yoga. And, the Sage Patanjali has comprehended the entire science of Yoga which is mainly from Vedas/Upanishads, and all past really classical presentations including Shrimad Bhagavadgita (BUT NOT only that. He is not trying to use mainly Shrimad Bhagavadgita, too).
To add, the sage Patanjali has NOT comprehended the entire Vedas in the Sutras, that is done in Brahmasutras by the sage Vyasa, who himself codified the Vedas. However, the sage Patanjali has comprehended the entire Yoga (which is a practical method to get realizations sited in Vedas) from Vedas and other classical works.
Terminology such as Power Yoga, zzz Yoga, zzzz Yoga, etc. which came later made a big problem in the Philsophical understanding of Yoga, if NOT in the usage of Yoga. Now, the original questioner asks a question, it is up to the teacher whether to answer it in a pragmatic way or philosophical way. I am only giving my opinion.
One small point: When you quoted the His Holiness Swami Shivanandaji, I understand what you mean. But, his aim was to integrate different practices into one Style, where one can choose all of them in some quantity, and be more associated with one of the practice. And, therefore, all people can benefit from this mixture. His aim was NOT to teach pure philosophy in the context of Sanskrit language, per say. With no offense at all, the Sanskrit Chanting done in the Shivananda Yoga style can not be called as Classical chanting. Because, it is NOT. It is still useful to a major section of society today.
Lastly, when I used the term Rajayoga Asana, I meant only the meditation posture. And, that is definitely not same as Asanas in Hathayoga per say. In fact, if one wants to connect them, there is a way, that is Hathayoga says the most important four asanas are x, y, z, r. All these are only sitting postures. And, the most important of all of them is Siddhasana, which is definitely the sitting posture. Also, Hathayoga culminates into Rajayoga, as it is clear there.
OM shantih
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Hi Neal,
You can tie yourself in knots all you like over this, but the simplest answer is the best one. It also happens to be correct. When a simple practical answer will do just fine, there is no need to resort to needlessly complicated answers, and that goes double on the internet where the tendency toward misinterpretation is amplified.
Now, if someone really wants a longer answer (which is also authentic and clear), try here:
http://www.sivananda.org/teachings/philosophy/eightlimbs.html
Edited by sivaram 2005-11-17 1:49 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | sivaram - 2005-11-17 1:28 AM
You can tie yourself in knots all you like over this, but the simplest answer is the best one.
Sivaram,
Tie yourself in knots??? Hmm, that doesn't seem to fit the Neelbhai I've come to know. Now, I'm sure if Neelbhai were to tie himself in knots, it would be something like Garbhasana or Yoganidrasana. Then, according to you, he would be doing his Hatha Yoga instead of his Raja Yoga, 
Have a great day,
Edited by Cyndi 2005-11-17 10:33 AM
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| Dear Shivaram:
I would prefer to knot myself rather than call Wrong Answer as Simple answer and be without a Knot. Then, there are more simpler answers, such as Pills for Pains! But, it seems to me that you find me knotted because you are looking through a coloured jaundiced eyes of yourself.
Let me see whether you understand the page you quoted. Why is there a picture of Shree Hanuman on the Rajayoga page you quoted in the last posting?
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| Hi Neal,
So many people on this board look up to you. I am not attacking you, because we all know you are a well intentioned person with some knowledge and experience. I am taking issue with your argument here, however.
Here are just a couple of quotes by you:
From your website:
Meditation: Rajayoga
link: http://www.authenticyoga.org/instruction.html
kulkarnn - 2005-09-16 10:48 PM
The gyst of this method is Meditation, also called as Rajayoga.
http://www.yoga.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=19786&posts=2
Without going through your other posts blow by blow, my point is simply that you are probably capable of a higher standard of thinking and writing, but in this instance your explanation is needlessly complex and contradictory. Even sloppy.
I for one am disappointed that you would go to such lengths to justify an essentially unjustifiable position, to wit: that Raja yoga does not refer to meditation in the context of the original question.
kulkarnn - 2005-11-18 12:38 PM
I understand your point of view that in general one can use the term Rajayoga as a path of meditation in a certain circle. But, I was refering to the original post, please see it.
It is not that it's used this way "within a certain circle". This is the widely accepted general definition, even and especially within the context of the original post. For general purposes, not specialist purposes, Raja yoga refers to the path of meditation. Exactly whom do you think our friend is addressing, a group of scholars, perhaps? I think not. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| I dunno - I am getting the impression tha traja yoga is the yoga of bickering, hair splitting and obfuscation  | |
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| tourist - 2005-11-19 9:57 AMI dunno - I am getting the impression tha traja yoga is the yoga of bickering, hair splitting and obfuscation
Isn't that what kings (rajas) do?
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| This is probably going to add 'fuel' to this ‘discussion’ of what Raja Yoga is, but I, just the other day, attended a Yoga session from a well respected teacher who called his style of Yoga, Raja. Here is his explanation of that style of Yoga when I inquired about that style of Yoga:
It's essentially based on the principles of Raja Yoga, ie, moving from movement to stillness. We do movement for about 30-40 minutes, followed by about 15 minutes of yoga nidra (guided relaxation). We then sit for thirty minutes and the last section is inquiry, a short dharma talk or discussion.
I should warn you that the movement we do is a LOT different than Iyengar. While Iyengar focuses on creating consciousness through perfection of the form, the style we do is about awakening energy and moving from body wisdom. (An Iyengar person might call this "mush" yoga, but it's more about awakening energy and moving from that place). We emphasize breathing, moving slow and pausing.
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| He's leading from Hatha to Raja in one session, which IMHO is a cool approach, but it doesn't fire up some types of students. I also teach along those lines, but with pranayama between the asanas and the meditation. He's using the word Raja as a tag for his style, which I guess is okay if the whole point is to take students through to meditation. Hopefully he's also teaching some principles of the yoga sutra?
i would imagine the talk might focus on some of the sutras?
That style & sequence makes perfect sense to a Sivananda trained teacher. We are taught to relax with internal focus and use of mantra, learning to be aware of the flow of prana during asana practice.
Who is the guy? Do you have any links? | |
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| Dear Shivaram:
Now, that you took me out of my knotted position, I have to say this. Actually, you did attack me, but I do not mind it now, since you are still contributing to this post, I understand that you are still open to my Sloppy or otherwise explanation, which I have a right to. Dear Tourist said that it is becoming a Raja-war over Raja-yoga. I do not believe so, because the bulletin board is for discussion, and discussion as a nature of that kind. So, I am only discussing. When one does not get the point I am making, possibly due to my sloppy thinking or writing, I am entitled to improvement. So, anyway, let me try to make my point once more, and then I shall not contribute to this post again. For those, who are interested, they should read this whole thread again as to what I wrote in the past.
The original question in the original post was: "How do I put it in words, to explain to someone the difference between Raja and other forms. I usually say that Raja is the "Royal" yoga, known such because it is such an old style. It is very similar to so many other forms though... people ask me if it's the same as Power, Hatha, etc... and I think I confuse people when I say "Yes and NO" which is understandable.
Help"
Now, when I read this post, I feel that the questioner is trying to list Rajayoga in the list of 'Power','Hatha',etc., that is one of the style of Yoga, (in the market or whereever). The questioner actually states the word, 'older style'.
Now, one can easily understand and assume, even from whatever understanding we got from discussion so far, that Raja is not a style to be listed alongwith Power, etc.
Next, my website mentions Meditation: Rajayoga. Mainly for achievement of Mental Health. Yes, this means that Meditation taught in my style is based upon the Rajayoga, which shall come later. And, it does confer Mental health.
Next, I stated that the words Raja, Hatha, etc are used loosely today. I also mentioned that all four paths of Yoga generally are mixed in some proportion, that is one does not exclusively practice Karmayoga, etc. This all is true.
Next, I stated that the Sage Patanjali comprehended the entire knowledge of Yoga, including all paths, with the Vedic Philosophy as the basis (for this part you have to read discussion in the past), so that the Patanjali Yoga Sutras form the Entire Complete Comprehended Science of Yoga. This includes all paths as follows (this part I am explaining now): Hathayoga -- Pranayama, control of prana and thereby receiving powers, health, etc. and yama niyams... Compare Hathayoga Pradipika with Patanjali chapters 2, 3 (powers). Jnanayoga -- purushakhyati, vivekakhyati, and the entire sankhya philosophy which is the basis of prakrit, etc.. Karmayoga -- selfless work leading to realization of self, Patanjali third chapter powers. Bhaktiyoga... Ishwarapranidhan, in fact Patanjali yoga sutras added the concept of Ishwara explicitely over sankhyas, tad japastadartha bhavanam... repetition of OM which represents Ishwara with intention on meaning is the method to obtain asamprajnata samadhi,,etc. Also, while explaining niyamas and the powers achieved by them, Patanjali says.. samadhisidhdhi Ishwarapranidhanat. That is success in Samadhi is achieved by Ishwarapranidhan. While describing other niyams, etc, he only gives other powers, not Samadhisidhdhi. Anyway, If you read the entire Patanjali sutras you shall find that he does not talk only about meditation. I already accepted that he enumerates Meditation more than others, but that Meditation is in the conext of other paths as explained later.
Now, (what I probably missed in my discussion before is), the Patanjali gives the eight limbed method (which is also coming from times before him), which is in the chapter two, which is a practice one can follow to get to the Samadhi state, and later Kaivalyam. Now, this practice is called Rajayoga, and I have no problem with it. However, you can immediately notice that Mediatation is only one limb out of it, that is 7th. So, you can not really call it Path of Meditation, regardless of others calling it. Actually, this mediation which starts with Dharana and ends in Samadhi (last 3 limbs) can be done on any object, which Patanjali never pushes or recommends. (To contradict, today's market styles try to give their own object in the name of style, and that is where they are different from Classical Yoga). Now, Patanjali, as I quoted earlier gives many different ways of mediation, including Ishwarapranidhan (Bhakti) and ultimately says... yathaabhimatadhyaanadva... do what you feel will give you the result...including drinking coffee if you truely feel that it will take you to samadhi.
It is very interesting that the great Sage Patanjali adds... samadhisidhdhirishwarapranidhanat... meaning samadhi sidhdhi is achieved (actually ONLY) by Ishwarapranidhan. If you see the lives of all saints or yogis, including the ones which brother Shivaram quoted, including Swami Shivananda, Swami Vivekananda, Shankaracharya, NOT only that but Lord Shiva himself, (and that brings to the picture of Shree Hanuman on the website quoted by Shivaram), you will find that Self Realization in the ultimate is IMPOSSIBLE without Bhakti Marga, Ishwarapranidhan.
Lastly, Hathayoga is definitely a preparation for Rajayoga in such a way that it kind of includes it in the final stages. It is not totally detached from it.
In Summary, one has to use the terms Raja etc, alongwith what they mean by that (they can mean whatever they want, but they should quote it). Patanjali Yogasutra is a comprehension of pure classical Yoga defined as chittavrittinirodha, by all means and paths, with Eight Limbed path as given in the second chapter, and this Eight Limbed path is called Rajayoga by later yogis.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
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| sivaram:
Jonathan Foust
Sudhir Jonathan Foust, MA, is cofounder of the Mindfulness Training Institute of Washington, D.C., and conducts retreats and seminars that focus on cultivating embodied awareness. He is a senior teacher and former president of Kripalu Center and has practiced yoga and meditation for more than 30 years. A member of the Kripalu ashram from the age of 25, he has led meditation retreats and trained teachers for two decades. Quoted in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Yoga Journal, and other national publications, his recordings include The Art of Relaxation; A Touch of Grace: Bamboo Flute Meditations; and two guided meditation compilations, Energy Awareness and High Energy Living.
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| Hello,
An important distinction is neccesary here.
When one speaks of four yogas, Raja Yoga does not mean Patanjali's eightfold yoga. Raja Yoga in this context is a Yoga of reaching and practicing Samadhi. Even the Hatha Yoga Pradipika defines Raja Yoga as Samadhi.
Patanjali's Yoga eightlimbed Yoga is one kind of Yoga which serves this purpose but it isn't the only one. We have six-limbed Yogas in the Netra Tantra, in the Gorakshapaddhati, in the Maitriyani Upanishad, we have 7-limbed Yoga in the Gherandasamhita, and a lot more. All these are Raja Yoga because they outline how to reach and practice Samadhi.
At other times Raja Yoga might refer to just Patanjali's system, but this is mainly because Patanjali's system is the most popular and well-known well,
Regards. | |
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| Thanks BelovedOfTheGod for adding this necessary information. Now, I got my missing link which I was trying to get. Many a times, I have some items to say, but I can not completely trace them where they got into my little head. Thanks again.
Since you said this, let me add a little more on the word Raja. Raja is Royal. And, it is Royal because of many supernatural (NOT unnatural) powers (extra ordinary capabilities) which one obtains due to the practice of Rajayoga.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Brother Neel is correct in his thinking even if his explanation is a bit circuitous. Beloved said quite succintly what Neel was trying to say in regards to markets etc. The strange thing is that Sivaram is also very nearly correct in his assertions, at least as far as perceptions are concerned. You have to tip your hat to Mr. Kuhn, no? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | sivaram - 2005-11-19 11:02 PM
He's leading from Hatha to Raja in one session, which IMHO is a cool approach, but it doesn't fire up some types of students. I also teach along those lines, but with pranayama between the asanas and the meditation. He's using the word Raja as a tag for his style, which I guess is okay if the whole point is to take students through to meditation. Hopefully he's also teaching some principles of the yoga sutra?
i would imagine the talk might focus on some of the sutras?
That style & sequence makes perfect sense to a Sivananda trained teacher. We are taught to relax with internal focus and use of mantra, learning to be aware of the flow of prana during asana practice.
Who is the guy? Do you have any links?
Hi Sivaram,
Who is the "he" in your post above...I guess I lost the thread here, since the post
prior to yours was mentioning BKS Iyengar. I can't imagine that your comments apply
to BKS... | |
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| Please tell me what this sentence mean. 'You have to tip your hat to Mr. Kuhn, no?'
neel kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
And I guess as commentary on all of the above, geeze, why do people
get into personal attacks when their ideas are questioned? I think that
Brother Neel gave wonderful exposition on the Patanjali Yoga Sutra
(e.g., let's go to 2:1 which clearly states that Patanjali's kriya yoga requires
Bhakti Murga)....I guess it's most interesting when folks focus on the
ideas, rather than attacking the person submitting them....long day...endofsermon.
bg
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| Neel,
It was a half-hearted attempt at humor. Briefly, Kuhn held that in science what we know to be "right" is based on a number of factors, of which actually being "right" is only one. I was making the same observation about yoga, yourself, and Sivaram as regards this conversation. You were "right", in that what you said was historically and factually accurate. On the other hand, Sivaram could claim to be "right" as well for other reasons. In this case he would be right because the vast majority of yogis, in the West at least, know yoga primarily through the Sutras and as such see the yoga as codified by Patanjali as being all there is to yoga. The acceptance of a theory as being "right" has as much to do with the popularity and reputation of the theory's proponents, or with the number of people supporting it, or with how it is "marketed" to the public at large, as does accuracy.
Anyway, like I said it was a half-hearted attempt at humor. I'm working on about 2.5 hours of sleep since Saturday night so my explanation is probably a bit daft, but I hope I at least got the idea out there. No offense was meant to you or Sivaram in any way. | |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-11-24 11:44 AM
sivaram - 2005-11-19 11:02 PM
He's leading from Hatha to Raja in one session, which IMHO is a cool approach, but it doesn't fire up some types of students. I also teach along those lines, but with pranayama between the asanas and the meditation. He's using the word Raja as a tag for his style, which I guess is okay if the whole point is to take students through to meditation. Hopefully he's also teaching some principles of the yoga sutra?
i would imagine the talk might focus on some of the sutras?
That style & sequence makes perfect sense to a Sivananda trained teacher. We are taught to relax with internal focus and use of mantra, learning to be aware of the flow of prana during asana practice.
Who is the guy? Do you have any links?
Hi Sivaram,
Who is the "he" in your post above...I guess I lost the thread here, since the post
prior to yours was mentioning BKS Iyengar. I can't imagine that your comments apply
to BKS...
No not BKSI. See Ravineave's posts:
ravineave - 2005-11-21 8:11 PM
Jonathan Foust
Sudhir Jonathan Foust, MA, is cofounder of the Mindfulness Training Institute of Washington, D.C., and conducts retreats and seminars that focus on cultivating embodied awareness. He is a senior teacher and former president of Kripalu Center and has practiced yoga and meditation for more than 30 years. A member of the Kripalu ashram from the age of 25, he has led meditation retreats and trained teachers for two decades. Quoted in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Yoga Journal, and other national publications, his recordings include The Art of Relaxation; A Touch of Grace: Bamboo Flute Meditations; and two guided meditation compilations, Energy Awareness and High Energy Living.
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| Dear Tsaklis:
I knew you did not mean bad. I just wanted to know it and that added to my knowledge. And, I can now laugh heartily. I also agree with what you wrote about Kuhnism.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| A relevant Richard Freeman quote...
"Rather than a direct experience of reality, an unconditional love and freedom, Fundamentalism often causes us to mistake the processes and symbols of yoga for the actual thing. This separates us from immediate experience of the openness of being and our yoga ironically becomes an escape from life, an avoidance of the present moment." | |
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| Dear Mitch:
Thanks for this quote. There is no fundamentalism in the Yoga Philosophy as to not being open to the others who practice different paths. Fundamentalism is there only in the actual Philosophy, which is always based on the fundamental, because the aim of the Phiolosophy is to find and establish the fundamental. Next, the truth as per the Yoga and Spirituality is Form less and therefore, no symbols are present at the point of Reality. But, there is one step beyond that when one realizes that the formless reality has another side which is the prakrii. Those who stay always in the form have differences due to different forms, one who has gone beyond the form has difference with those with forms, and those who went to the final step, they have no differences at all. This is stated as 'sarvam khalvidam brahm', all verily is brahman, formful and formless. Until this realization all is only in a conceptual stage.
What people call as tolerance for others is not a realization, but only a social adjustment
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Neel,
From an intellectual standpoint, debating the meaning of the term "Raja Yoga" can be amusing. From a practical standpoint, it is irrelevant. The term is merely a symbol and the symbol is merely a device to help our limited minds understand the formless. That's the point that the quote made and that I agree with - and it seems that you agree as well.
Peace.
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| Wow. That is interesting. Dear Mitch:
When I read the quote you gave, I think I did NOT understand what the word Fundamentalism meant. I thought it meant adhering to a fundamental. What does it actually mean? But, I know I should ask that question to Mr. Richard Freeman to get his exact understanding.
I did NOT understand the Term Raja Yoga as a symbol, neither I meant that. I also did not amuse myself in intellectual understanding of that term. I know exactly what that term means in Language and in Action/Experience. What I was saying in the postings of this thread is already there, but in terms of your comment: a) I was trying to answer the original question, please see it. b) I was trying to say, that if one is following a particular practice, which is already not done at all, or has been done NOT intentionally, then one should first know the meanings and parameters of that practice, and then practice it. c) Later, I stated that Patanjali Yoga sutras summarize the entire understanding of Yoga. And, his eightfold path has been named by later as Rajayoga. Same as some other people have named other things are Rajayoga.
Lastly, debate or discussion requires two persons, with two view points, and the view points are NEVER formless. So, there will be always a difference. But, one should state one's own understanding as a part of the discussion. And, let the other party do whatever they want.
As for formless, that is an Experience, and NOT a viewpoint, or a symbol, or a term. When that is realized it can not be expressed.
neti neti... upanishad.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Neel:
What I like about this thread is the discussions within the discussion. To whit - at first this thread was a debate between yourself and sivaram about the definition of raja yoga - specifically, does it simply mean meditation or is it a posthumously applied label for Patanjali's ashtanga? (Personally, I like the answer that raja yoga is an integration of bhakti, kriya, karma & jnana yoga - the sivananda approach.)
Next, the debate was whether the eight-fold path of Patanjali's ashtanga system represent steps to meditation or samadhi. I've always been taught that the limbs are interdependent but separate, meaning they don't need to be practiced in a specific order, but you need all of them in the end! Of course, the irony is that the external limbs are considered prerequisites for the internal limbs, so there is the appearance of steps, but it's not dogmatic.
Finally, our civil discussion touched upon the ideas of fundamentalism and symbolism. I believe that Freeman was discussing the fundamentalistic approach that some practioners adopt - i.e. Jois' ashtanga is "true" yoga or that Iyengar is the correct approach. Of course, the answer is that they're all correct, they're all yoga, and the differences speak more to our personalities than to concepts of right path or wrong path.
not this, not this indeed. | |
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| Mitch:
For lack of time, I am being brief, please forgive me. Now, I slightly understand what Fundamentalism in your quote means, and this is what I have to say, in addition to small comments otherwise:
- history of my discussion with Shivaram, and my responses to initial question, etc are already present in the previous part of the thread. So, I do not wish to repeat them.
- It is NOT Patanjali's Eight Limbed System at all. The sage Patanjali has not done anything with the eight limbs. These limbs existed exactly same way before. What the sage Patanjali has done is: Comprehend the previous Yoga knowledge in the Sutras, by addition of refutation of Buddhist Philosophy of Shoonyavaad. Also, they are eight limbs and not steps. Again, the internal limbs are External to Nirbeeja Samadhi. (tadapi bahirangam nirbijasya.. Chapter 4).
- Lastly, if what you wrote about Fundamentalism is Iyengar and Ashtanga style. Both these approaches are good, but they ARE NOT COMPLETE for the goal of Yoga. They are only good in their own part. Thus, both of them are FUNDAMENTALLY partial in the practice of Yoga. Actually, both are just styles of practicing Yoga, mainly Asana and Pranayama, at least as far as the instruction in USA goes. They do not address other limbs, which Shivananda Yoga addresses.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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Raja Yoga