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| Let's try something a little less polarizing. There is a quote from Lao-Tzu that has always sort of stuck with me. It's one of those things that is either profound or trite, and probably both. Hopefully it isn't profoundly trite. I don't know when or where the quote first appeared, probably sometime in the 6th century bce along with Lao-Tzu himself. I came across it a few years ago while reading John Barrow's A Book of Nothing. It's about, well... nothing. There are actually a few good quotes in the book pertaining to nothingness as it applies to meditation, but this one stuck in my head for some reason. I thought that I would throw this out there and see if anyone had thoughts that they would like to share.
"Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there
Usefulness from what is not there"
Lao-tzu
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-06-14 9:29 AM
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| Yep.. But this is the best of him (to me 
"Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it"
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| Tsaklis - 2005-06-14 7:28 AM
"Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there
Usefulness from what is not there"
Lao-tzu
This sort of has a zen feel to it (or zen has a feel of Lao-tzu's quote  )
But, sometimes, I've been think lately, is that Usefulness comes from what is not there, but so can profit. I've been trying to think...how how how? Hmmmmm...... | |
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| "Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it"
I like this one very much as well. Although I can't help but think that anyone who has ever performed an accidental belly flop from the high dive might want to argue that whole softer and flexible thing.
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-06-14 11:39 AM
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| "Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful."
See, now I think it is the boundary created (the vessel itself) that makes the space useful.
I have no idea why I responded to that, but it was my first thought.  | |
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| Lao Tzu is the best! I could spend all day contemplating one sentence of that poem. To me this poem exemplifies the nature of "wu wei" - doing by not doing. This is a difficult concept for my mostly-Western mind to grasp. I think I knew (or felt) this concept as a kid, then it went away. I wish grade schools would include the Dao De Jing as part of their reading list.
I look forward to weekly discussions on the Dao...thanks Tskalis ~ fifi | |
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| Tsaklis - 2005-06-14 11:39 AM "Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it" I like this one very much as well. Although I can't help but think that anyone who has ever performed an accidental belly flop from the high dive might want to argue that whole softer and flexible thing. LOL - I think this might fall into (no pun intended!) the "resist" category! | |
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| But, sometimes, I've been think lately, is that Usefulness comes from what is not there, but so can profit. I've been trying to think...how how how? Hmmmmm......
If you figure this one out then you have to let me know. I'm sitting on a veritable goldmine of nothing over here. I have so much nothing.... man.... I could be the Bill Gates of nothing. | |
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| I really love to explore the concept of nothing and nothingness This reminds me of silence - if silence is the absence of sound, then it is nothing; correct? But silence is certainly useful - actually beneficial. Something from nothing? 
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| Emptiness and usefulness to me equal potential. I wish I knew more about quantum physics b/c I think there's a universal law of physics being described in this poem. It's so simple that it's complex to explain, which is so very Daoist. I think the emptiness, especially in rooms of houses, is how Feng Shui works so well. I mean the qi can flow freer in a less cluttered space. I'm going off on a tangent here.... | |
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| Kabu - 2005-06-14 12:16 PM
"Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful."
See, now I think it is the boundary created (the vessel itself ) that makes the space useful.
I have no idea why I responded to that, but it was my first thought.
But is your vessel half-empty or half-full? 
I actually thought pretty much the exact opposite - without the space inside it wouldn't be a vessel for anything, but a block.
I really like this thread, by the way! As a designer we really get to think about solids and voids, and that is a GREAT quote to show my instructors! | |
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| EE,
If you enjoy ponder over nothing you should really pick up Barrow's book. It's a great read that begins with the history of zero (in all of their wisdom the Greeks never conceived of nothing or zero), goes through the philosophical history of nothing, the void, and the vacuum, and ends with a little quantum physics primer. He ties it all together very well. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| I have heard musicians describe music as being ways of shaping the silence between the notes. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Sigh... yes... very Zen. What is the sound of one hand clapping? If a tree falls
in the forest and no one is there to hear the noise, did it make a sound at all?
Etc. Etc.
I am in the wrong mood to do Zen tonight.
What makes a vessel useful is not the space inside per se, it is the fact that the
[rigid] container surrounding the space confines other matter within that space
once placed within. Thus, a glass holds water, and a shoe box facilitates the
stacking and transportation of shoes. Lao Tzu missed the point entirely. I am
not impressed.
So  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yeah - the hand clapping thing and the tree - I have never liked those. Obviously these were questions posed before the advent modern technology. A good enough microphone could pick up the sound of one hand clapping and even basic science would suggest that, unless there were an ear, biological or electronic, there would just be sound waves, not sound.
As for the vessel - I think it is one of those perception things. I think I could argue either the space or the container being the most important aspect, depending on my mood.... | |
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| Words!
If a man speaks in the forrest, where his wife cannot hear the words, is he still wrong???
Why a mouse when it spins?
When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, then you will have a balanced attack.
Lao-Tzu is dead, but still he speaks. Doesn't wear plaid, though.
Consider the dog.
Change is difficult. Change must come from within. Therefore it is difficult within. Or possibly"from within comes difficulty." Or, according to some scholars, "bite me."
Cheers... | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Marvelous, Elson! | |
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| an interesting saying I heard recently ----for DAO DE JING, the first two sentences(sorry, I don't know the English translation) are enough. Because the real DAO can't be explained, why do we read the rest of the words?  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Here it is....so that we know what's being discussed....
1. The Way
The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not true.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.
To experience without intention is to sense the world;
To experience with intention is to anticipate the world.
These two experiences are indistinguishable;
Their construction differs but their effect is the same.
Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-06-24 11:09 PM
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| So this is what happens when I take some time off? The lesser elements come to the surface and everyone just runs away.... pleasant. Ok...
Bay Guy - 2005-06-14 10:11 PM
I am in the wrong mood to do Zen tonight.
No one asked. Why is it you assume that negative input from you is more valuable than silence? If you have no desire to discuss the topic, then here's a novel idea..... don't discuss it. Your constant need to disparage is juvenile. You tear down other thoughts and ideas as a way of building up your own sense of security. Either that, or you are just not a nice person.
What makes a vessel useful is not the space inside per se, it is the fact that the
[rigid] container surrounding the space confines other matter within that space
once placed within. Thus, a glass holds water, and a shoe box facilitates the
stacking and transportation of shoes. Lao Tzu missed the point entirely. I am
not impressed.
Riiiiiiiight. You demonstrate a wonderful grasp of the obvious my friend. This is a brilliant job of describing a hollow three-dimensional object. However, the value of any object is ascribed... oddly enough... not by you but by each individual. So, in your opinion, nothing has value beyond it's material form. Okey dokey. Yeah, it's Lao that missed the point.
elson Posted 2005-06-15 3:22 AM
Words!
If a man speaks in the forrest, where his wife cannot hear the words, is he still wrong???
Why a mouse when it spins?
When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, then you will have a balanced attack.
Lao-Tzu is dead, but still he speaks. Doesn't wear plaid, though.
Consider the dog.
Change is difficult. Change must come from within. Therefore it is difficult within. Or possibly"from within comes difficulty." Or, according to some scholars, "bite me."
Cheers...
Yes, bravo indeed. You must be very proud. You can sit at your personal computer, in your air conditioned building, and poke fun at the words of a man who pondered the absract in a world lit only by fire. In order to truly see the value in any text or thought it should be placed in the perspective of it's time. What would a mind such as Lao's have produced in today's world? Lao's writings, in the context of his world, do not merit mocking. I have to believe that given the education and technology of today Lao would have made a much better showing of himself than mocking others on an internet forum.
You can take the same shots at any "sacred" text. Everything from the bible to the upinashads can be looked at literally and made to seem silly. Is that really the point of this forum? I mean, clearly it is for some, but should it be?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that? I'm absolutely stuck....
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| Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that?
And yet you respond anyway. How typical of my little ball of sunshine. I'm so honored that you chose to grace yet another of my posts with your own special brand of petty negativity.
I'm absolutely stuck....
What, can't get your ego through the door again?
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-08-14 4:03 PM
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| A non-haiku for Tsaklis:
So, how's the whole inner peace thing going?
If you call other people lesser elements, then what have you understood?
Does the intelligent, wise, thoughtful man speak these words?
Does love speak thusly?
Bite me. | |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-08-13 11:16 PM
Elson, did you find anything to respond to in that? I'm absolutely stuck....
I think trolls are kind of cute.
And I had fun butchering the haiku format :-).
Best of all, I suddenly understood the sound of one hand typing....
Hee hee hee. | |
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| So, how's the whole inner peace thing going?
Great! Thank you for asking.
If you call other people lesser elements, then what have you understood?
I have understood your words and responded accordingly.
Does the intelligent, wise, thoughtful man speak these words?
Yes, actually. Bullies are, by their own admission, lesser elements. When one is so insecure in his or her beliefs that he or she must thwart free discussion of other ideas as a way of re-assuring oneself then one is a bully. One becomes a bully when one feels, well, lesser. Therefore, to call a bully a lesser element is only to agree with the bully's own self-assessment. Rush Limbaugh is a bully. As is Micheal Moore. As are some on this forum.
Does love speak thusly?
Does love mock those with whom it does not agree? Let me ask you, my friend, had I posted a bible passage would you have been so quick to mock? Wait, don't answer that. The question itself is not "with love" for it leaves you no choice but to answer in such a way as to show yourself as either a hypocrit or a liar.
Bite me.
Ah yes. Love and intelligence all rolled into two little words. Enjoy the eigth grade this year. Perhaps you will have an opportunity to work on your haiku skills.
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| i really will never understand this thread....i might have had a shot when it was still about something....now it has turned into some kind of pissing contest - and for what?
who are any of us to judge the value, merit or worth of an other posters words? if you have nothing nice to say, move on to the bikram forum - just kidding! really, what is up with the negative tone? is it necessary?
i dont get it...so why am I here
i just wanted to let elson know that it wasnt even close to haiku, 5-7-5 is the format for future reference.
Edited by easternsun 2005-08-16 7:56 AM
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| glittering insult
calls coldly, regretful gem
resounding, feeble
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| This is exactly the point, easternsun. The thread was about something... but... a few bullies decided that it wasn't worthy so they made it about them. This is so typical of the spiritual arrogance displayed by some. Because it wasn't the correct dogma it was quashed. And, as is always the case with bullies, as soon as they enter the game everyone else leaves. I think that in some strange way they think that this is because they have shown everyone the light with their grand wisdom. My private messages say differently. They say that most people just don't want to bother trying to have a discussion where they know that they will be ridiculed so they just let it go. So what are the options, really? Continue on topic while certain people ridicule you? Let it go? Or try to point out the bullying and hypocrisy and allow the thread to degenerate? Sure, it is probably better to let it go. But if we say nothing then nothing changes.
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-08-16 9:09 AM
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| Wow, easternsun :-).
Nice poem! Especially the ambiguity, which becomes clearer with each reading :-).
Yeah, the format of my nonHaiku was bogus, but it had the same feeling for me :-). Especially the "bite me" at the end, which is about all that can profitably be said to trolls. | |
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| Brilliant, Eastern. How about this one?
Ancient form ungrasped
Meaning slips like mercury
Eastern Sun haiku
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| In reflecting on this thread I came to a realization. My ego got the best of me, and for that I owe someone an apology. I was quick to defend the words of Lao-Tzu; too quick. Had I taken a moment to consider this I would have realized that Lao-Tzu needs no help from me. He provided a much better response to certain posters than I ever could. So.... I humbly apologize for having stepped on his toes.
From the Tao Te Ching:
When the highest type of men hear Tao,
They diligently practice it.
When the average type of men hear Tao,
They half believe it.
When the lowest type of men hear Tao,
They laugh heartily at it.
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| Tsaklis :-)
I doubt that Lao-Tzu is aware of your apology, and making a mistake in strategy (defending what needs no defense) requires no apology. And certainly a strong defense of those you revere is a good thing. So there is no need to apologise to somebody for having stepped on Lao-Tzu's toes.
And apperently you misinterpreted our banter as scathing criticism. Whatever, it happens :-). I'm a smartass at times.
But if you regret the harsh and insulting tone of your reply to me & Bay Guy, and your integrity drives you to apologise for that, then I would like to have peace between us.
Not only because you are an obviously intelligent person (albeit a bit rash :-), but because you are a fellow human.
And by peace, I do not mean the absence of conflict or disagreement, but a covenant of civility and a continuing recognition of the other as a real human being, not just words on paper. In short, respect.
So then, shall we have peace?
Edited by elson 2005-08-17 5:03 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | elson - 2005-08-17 5:02 PM
And apperently you misinterpreted our banter as scathing criticism. Whatever, it happens :-). I'm a smartass at times.
But if you regret the harsh and insulting tone of your reply to me & Bay Guy, and your integrity drives you to apologise for that, then I would like to have peace between us.
Not only because you are an obviously intelligent person (albeit a bit rash :-), but because you are a fellow human.
And by peace, I do not mean the absence of conflict or disagreement, but a covenant of civility and a continuing recognition of the other as a real human being, not just words on paper. In short, respect.
So then, shall we have peace?
I agree with all of this...ideas prove their worth by their resiliency in the face of
questions -- or ridicule -- but there's no need for it to become personal. It's important
to think critically, but better to do so dispassionately.
I do apologize myself if my June 14-15th posts were hurtful to you...I stand firmly by
the basic ideas in them, but I regret some of phrasing.
So Tsaklis, an end to all this?
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| elson,
True it is that this should end, but I feel that clarity is needed on a number of fronts. Understanding, or lack thereof, is the sole point of communication. To that end I will offer what follows.
I doubt that Lao-Tzu is aware of your apology, and making a mistake in strategy (defending what needs no defense) requires no apology. And certainly a strong defense of those you revere is a good thing. So there is no need to apologise to somebody for having stepped on Lao-Tzu's toes.
There was no strategy. I fear you overestimate my emotional involvement here. I do not hold Lao-Tzu in higher regard than I do countless other thinkers of various faiths. It was not only Lao that I was defending. I was saddened by the idea that a small minority could effect de facto censorship by virtue of negativity. As for Lao, who knows?
And apperently you misinterpreted our banter as scathing criticism.
If there was misinterpretation I can assure you it was not just mine. Did I see it as scathing criticism? Of course not. You made no comment whatsoever on the ideas presented. You merely mocked, which I found disrespectful not only to Lao, but to those who were discussing the ideas in earnest. I certianly was not something I took to be a personal attack. It was, to me, simply bad behavior.
As for the rest, again, I fear you greatly overestimate my level of emotional investment in this discussion. I do regret having not made my last post my first response. Would that have changed anything? I cannot say.
Please understand that I have never seen you, or anyone else, as anything other than human. I hold absolutely no ill will toward either of you. I cannot fathom allowing posts on an internet forum to burden one's heart and spirit. I have never disparaged either of you in any way outside of responding directly to your posts here. Having said that, I honestly do not feel that I have said or done anything to you for which I should apologize. Every one of my posts to both you and bayguy was a direct response to a post of yours. I began this thread with the words "Let's try something a little less polarizing". That was my intent. You mention my integrity, but you seem to understand little of who I am or what that means to me. My integrity is what drove me to respond in the first place. Likewise, my integrity would not allow me to offer a false apology.
Civility should always be the order of the day, and in that regard we all failed. Peace is, by definition, a lack of conflict. That is not to say a lack of disagreement or a lack of diversity in ideas or discussion. I truly believe that, given the intellectual skills demonstrated by all of us, we are more than capable of discussing and disagreeing or agreeing on any topic without resorting to disrespect. Let us not seek a manufactured peace, my friends. Instead, let us be respectful of one another and embrace the natural peace that follows. It will be a much stronger peace indeed.
namaste... and I mean that in the truest sense of the word.
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| >> I cannot fathom allowing posts on an internet forum to burden one's heart and spirit.
Do you think that all posters are like this, or have you noticed that your posts seem to cause pain to some folks? | |
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| I'm sorry, friend. It really is time to set this aside. Let it go, elson. | |
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| I am aware that this is somewhat uncomfortable, and of course, you are free to click to a different thread as you choose. But the you of 20, 30, or 40 years from now will be happier if you spend some time considering these things. | |
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| I honestly cannot tell if you truly believe anyone is buying this, or if you just need some sense of victory that the last word provides. You really shouldn't marry yourself to outcomes, my friend. Sometimes it can make you look silly. If someone feels as if they were harmed in some way as an "innocent bystander" of sorts, I would be more than happy to offer my apologies to them if it is so merited. At present I have not heard one single voice, save yours and bayguys, who felt my responses were anything but appropriate. So, my final thoughts on this thread are simple. If you truly want peace and respect, then behave in a peaceful and respectful manner. If all you really want is to feel as if you somehow "won" something, well, there is no victory or defeat to be found here. It is what it is. If the situation is such that on some level you need the last word you may have it. I'm not out to hurt you or deprive you of anything at all. Knock yourself out. | |
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| Daffy thing duplicated my post. Anyway...
namaste
Edited by Tsaklis 2005-08-22 9:11 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You know what?? After being on my wonderful vacation out in nature...completely embraced by the mountains, the air, the water...and then to return to read this....I swear this is the stupidest thread, it literally does not make any sense. It's like watching my son when he was 8 years old argue with the neighborhood kid on the other street. Come on you guys, get with the program, grow up, this is so immature and childish....and then you throw words such as Namaste` around???? Give me a break!!  | |
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Lao-Tzu quote, your thoughts?