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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New Jersey | I've been a vegetarian for awhile, but have still been consuming dairy products. I plan to eliminate dairy from my diet too, and I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea of what to use as my source of protein. I know that dairy isn't exactly the best source of protein either, lately I've been beginning to feel a little fatigued, and I thinks it's from a lack of protein. (This happened to me a few years ago, and I eventually went back to eating meat.) Where do vegans get their protein from? I'm trying hard to like tofu. I've never been able to prepare it in a way that I'd like it. Any advice would be helpful!
Samantha | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi Samantha,
Have you ever tried protein drinks?? I use Spiru-tein High Protein Energy Meals by Nature's Plus. They are so great and not only do you get protein, you get vitamins and minerals, plus extra stuff like bee pollen, spirulina, and more.. and they taste yummy. My favorites are Vanilla and Strawberry, but I mostly drink vanilla. Its better with milk - blended in a blender, although juice is recommended too on the package. For about 1.50 you can get the packets at a health food store. I would try these first to see if they taste okay with juice. Good luck to you. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | Thanks. I've never tried protein drinks, but I was thinking of it. There are just so many I didn't know which ones to try. I'm going to try the one you mentioned.
Samantha | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Samantha, before you stop drinking milk..at least try the vanilla flavor with milk. Blend it in the blender or a shaker. You will love it, it taste better than a vanilla milkshake and its totally organic. When I drink mine, I feel so energized and I can't explain it, I really get energy from them. I drink one every other day, not every day - its too much. I could probably take half the scoop with half the amount of milk recommended and do just fine..sometimes I can't drink the recommended amount, its very filling. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Samantha - why are you giving up dairy? Just curious. To ensure you have complete protein on a veg diet it helps to combine foods correctly. Rice and beans work to make the full complement of amino acids. Add nuts to grains etc and that works, too. All those prepackaged tofu "meats" are helpful as well and don't taste tofu-y. | |
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| Samantha, Do you have a particular reason to go vegan? The reason I ask is because I am a borderline vegetarian (still eat fish) and it's hard, but to go vegan is very difficult. It makes eating out in normal resturants tough and social situations even harder. This is JUST my observation though, I am sure someone will have another opinion. My parents' had a secretary that went vegan and over the course of a year her whole appearence changed. She looked worn out all the time and her skin didn't have a nice color. That said, just be sure that you are super educated about the lifestyle and make sure you are eating the right food combinations (ie : proteins with carbs). Please don't be offended by this, I am just making a suggestion and trying to help. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I don't know Gracie, I've seen people eating a *regular* diet that look worn out and not so good skin color, sorry I had to say that  That is why I drink the protein I mentioned above, it has everything that your diet should give you, which is extremely difficult to get in the world of eating today even if your a *regular eating normal* person which I'm not really sure what that is, but I'd say from the consenses, most people don't eat healthy food every day due to schedules, availability and lack of knowledge. So, we have to compromise and do the best we can. Supplements are a good choice, but don't overdo it and try to eat a balanced diet and try to do the correct food combinations if at all possible. If in doubt, don't combine too many foods together, space them apart for a couple of hours, for the best digestion. Like Milk and Watermelon do not go together - Yuk! Of course, all rules on food combining don't apply when your pregnant  | |
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| Good point Cyndi! My husband's friend is on a no veggie, all fried food and cheese diet. He's not looking his best, that's for sure  I guess my whole point was to be educated when following a vegan lifestyle. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Gracie, I totally agree with you about being educated!!! For instance, I knew a girl with a 2 year old a few years back. She had this baby on a raw food vegetarian diet. He had colds all the time, always had a clear stream coming out. Once, I made some Beet soup when we were on a road trip. She fed it to him and I kept saying to her, I don't think this would be good for him. Well, needless to say that night, he vomited red stuff everywhere. In the Chinese medical theory, with babies, you need to give them easy to digest cooked foods. Their bodies are not developed yet. So, we adults go through similar things when trying to alter our diets. For instance, when we are used to something that may seem unhealthy, sometimes that is okay for us, because getting used to something extremely healthy can be just as UN-healthy because we are not used to it and getting used to it may never happen...like I am NEVER going to be able to tolerate dal and legumes, no matter how much kombu or cumin I add to them when cooking, no matter how soft they are, or even that beano stuff doesn't help...and dal is my favorite:~) God help me when I go to India and Nepal. | |
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| Soy protein is your best bet. You can get it in powder form, in tofu or in mock meats. Be careful that the mock meats you get aren't overly laden with trans fats and party hydros (partially hydrogenated oils).
I recommend staying away from beans and rice. The amount of carbs in beans far outweighs the amount of protein. If you combine it with rice you're mostly just eating lots of empty carbs and some fibre. That nonsense about combining them is for the birds, IMHO. Similarly, nuts are mostly fat, but at least they are good fat. So keep eating nuts for fat but don't count them as proteins.
If you are eating dairy you have some more options: yogurt, milk, cheese, etc.
If you buy tofu in blocks, try pressing it first to get a lot of the water out. Wrap it in paper towels on a plate and put a heavy skillet or jar on top. After it's pressed, it will absorb sauces better and therefore taste better. It will also be firmer and easier to cook.
The silken tofu can just be blended and added to other dishes to thicken them and add protein. Or you can just add a scoop or two of unflavored protein powder. For example you can add it to a vegetarian chiles or tomato sauces. Consider adding it to desserts: pies, cakes, puddings, etc.
Vegetarians and vegans, especially, don't get enough protein and eat far too many bad carbs. If you're feeling sluggish, you want to consider eating some more protein but also upping the good fats, ie monounsaturated fats: olives, olive oil, avocados, almonds. You want to eat these because they are good for you and because you want your body to start using these types of fats for its main energy source. Don't fall into the trap of eating lots of grainy carbs for energy. It's bad news. Eat fruits and green vegetables, good fats, and good protein.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Yogaguy,
That comment you made about beans and rice...hmmm..my Indian body building husband would argue till the cows come home on that one! In Arnold's Schwartznegger (sp?) body building video, he is a vegetarian and recommends the dal and rice. My husband also swears by this because of his culture...being Indian and growing up as a vegetarian. This is where they get their main protein source. They also use Ghee and fresh unpasturized, freshly squeezed from the cow Milk too, which has some protein as well.
However, you are right when you say this to the average person who does not work out or burn those carbs..and that is the important factor here. Americans do not burn the calories and carbs like an Indian or Nepalis person would. Look at the Mexicans that are overweight in our country, they eat all that fattening food that they would eat in their country and then they come here and don't exercise, but keep their diets. In Satyams country, they walk everywhere, no cars, if you have a motorbike you are a rich person, 5-10 miles per day and use up their resources. When I was staying in NYC for 3 weeks, I could not eat enough carbs to keep up with all the walking I did in that city - every day. I lost 5 good pounds the first week, man did I feel good and I ate Chinese food every day in Chinatown..and lots of it...mostly carbs.
Tofu is really good like you said, I always put it on a plate (don't try this with silken, only firm) cover with a paper towel, then put a heavy book on it. At least let it stand for a couple of hours or overnite, you'll be so surprised how much water comes out. Then slice it and add it to a stir fry (coated lightly with Tapioca or Corn Starch) or better yet, Fried Tofu (thai style) is very good with a mildly spicy peanut sauce. Save the silken tofu for soups.
The protein powder I recommended earlier is Soy Protein - organic with no GMO's.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-17 2:35 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | tourist - 2005-03-17 10:24 AM
Samantha - why are you giving up dairy? Just curious. To ensure you have complete protein on a veg diet it helps to combine foods correctly. Rice and beans work to make the full complement of amino acids. Add nuts to grains etc and that works, too. All those prepackaged tofu "meats" are helpful as well and don't taste tofu-y.
I'm giving up dairy, because I want to go totally Vegan. Also, I don't drink milk, or eat eggs as it is. They both upset my stomach. I do eat cheese, yogurt, and ice cream and seem to do ok with those, but I want to gradually phase them out of my diet. I just recently tried soy yogurt and really liked it.
By prepackaged tofu meats do you mean like veggie hot dogs, or veggie chicken wings? I like those, but I have becomne a little tired of them. I'll have to investigate whatelse is out there.
Thanks for your help!
Samantha | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-17 2:30 PM
Yogaguy,
That comment you made about beans and rice...hmmm..my Indian body building husband would argue till the cows come home on that one! In Arnold's Schwartznegger (sp?) body building video, he is a vegetarian and recommends the dal and rice. My husband also swears by this because of his culture...being Indian and growing up as a vegetarian. This is where they get their main protein source. They also use Ghee and fresh unpasturized, freshly squeezed from the cow Milk too, which has some protein as well.
A few points, Cyndi:
I am not trying to insult your husband, I am just trying to stick with science. He can come on over to the boards and argue all he wants. I'll be glad to indulge him.
First, Arnold, as much as I love him, did not get that way eating vegetables. He got that way with vitamin S! Steroids. (He has admitted this numerous times, I'm not trying to dis him). Second, bodybuilding is NOT fitness, it is a vain pursuit to look bigger by any means necessary. Size does not necessarily correlate to strength or ability. Bodybuilding and bodybuilding magazines are geared to sell products, not to make you HEALTHIER. In fact, I don't think there is much correlation between bodybuilding and health.
Don't mistake what I am saying. Lifting weights and resistance training is great and can improve performance, strength and health if done properly. Bodybuilding is not a sport, it is a show. Citing bodybuilding as a source for health in a topic about yoga and nutrition is a mistake in my opinion.
Cultural eating and nutritional eating are two different animals. It's easy to get the two confused. We cite cultural and social reasons for being vegetarian all the time and confuse those for health reasons. Vegetarianism makes sense for many cultural reasons and there are many good, socially responsible reasons as well. However, just based on nutritional science, beans (even when mixed with rice) are not a significant source of protein. I am basing this on a diet of 40% carbs to 30% protein and 30% fat. I don't know about lentils...maybe they're more heavily balanced towards protein.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New Jersey | Gracie - 2005-03-17 10:28 AM
Samantha, Do you have a particular reason to go vegan? The reason I ask is because I am a borderline vegetarian (still eat fish) and it's hard, but to go vegan is very difficult. It makes eating out in normal resturants tough and social situations even harder. This is JUST my observation though, I am sure someone will have another opinion. My parents' had a secretary that went vegan and over the course of a year her whole appearence changed. She looked worn out all the time and her skin didn't have a nice color. That said, just be sure that you are super educated about the lifestyle and make sure you are eating the right food combinations (ie : proteins with carbs). Please don't be offended by this, I am just making a suggestion and trying to help.
I guess my main reason for wanting to go vegan is for ethical reasons. I've tried it before, but failed because I stopped all animal products right away without really investigating. This time, I eliminated meat gradually, and so far I seem to be doing better. I take the time to cook now, where as the last time, I was in college, and didn't want to cook so I relied on quick foods. What's funny is that dairy seems to be the hardest thing to eliminate from my diet, but too much dairy has always upset my stomach. Thanks for your advice. I will definitely make sure I am careful about getting all the right nutrients this time.
Samantha | |
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| "...'tis better to swap bubble gum with a rabid bulldog than challenge a single one o' the varyin' beliefs your average human holds about nutrition." Tom Robbins from Jitterbug Perfume | |
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| Yoga Guy, so true! I get crazy when people question my eating habits. MYOB is my opinion  which is why I attempt to tread lightly with my advice!!
Samantha, have you tried flax seed? My aunt is a nutritionist and she swears by that stuff. I add a little of the ground flax seed to my baked goods (not too much since it is very high in fat). I'm not sure how much protein is in it though?? What do you think Yoga Guy? | |
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| Here is another problem. Everybody and their guru has an opinion about what you SHOULD and what you SHOULD NOT EAT. That's confusing enough, but very few people tell you how much of everything to eat. That's why I like the Zone Diet. Keep it simple and balanced. 30% good fat, 30% good protein, 40% good carbs. So far it is the best science on how much to eat. You can decide for yourself if you are eating kosher, vegan, raw, paleo or whatever! It can all be put into a favorable zone balance. It is friendly to all ethical and health issues about food. Wondering how much protein, carbs and fat you should eat? Try the zone.
It's easy to eat too much flax oil or too much whole grain sprout bread. Put it in the zone and you'll be better off. People always say you have to eat more of X and less Y. The zone takes away the guess work and give you real numbers and amounts.
It's simple but it ain't easy. | |
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i'm thinking about making a similar transition..or at least less dairy.. so this topic is fantastic for me too!
i heard a friend mention the "exchange system" for making a safe/healthy transition to vegetarian/vegan diet. supposedly it's a series of calculations you can make to tailor your diet to your size and caloric requirements..does anyone know more about it? i'd love to check it out...
regarding tofu..there's a book out there call " That can't be tofu!" i've heard it's a great guide for vegetarians who don't like tofu  i also love to freeze mine and thaw it before pressing the water out. it gives it a fantastic texture. (i'm not a fan of squishy bean curd, m'self)
i'm also trying to steer away from seasoned veggie"meats", little by little. luv um, but the sodium is through the roof. if you eat that stuff regularly make you are getting potassium for balance.
there's also seitan ( wheat gluten) and tempeh ( soy and grains, pressed and fermented. tastes better than it sounds) | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I'm certainly not going to argue with *science*...but I'm really glad that I don't have to rely on it. Right now you recommend the Zone diet, until your science changes and says "oops, sorry we were wrong". Kinda like the Atkins diet that was so popular and now studies in Germany are proving it wrong - that was in the news a while back.
Actually, using common sense is probably the best answer to diet and balance - what has happened to using your brain and own judgement and tuning into that?? I can't believe that people are that stupid. These are things that people have been doing for thousands of years and have managed to do just fine. If I relied on Science, I'd be dead right now. Besides, I used to go to western doctors and have this same argument while they were pumping my children with their antibiotics and pills, my children were sick all the time and they never could give me answers as to why. Guess what?? After throwing in the science towel....We don't get sick every winter with the flu, we don't catch colds and we live a happy wholesome balanced life. My daughter doesn't throw up in the middle of the night because her school fed her the wrong type of food for her body's needs and she doesn't get pinworms because of the raw salad she ate at school because they don't wash the lettuce, by trying to be healthy! As a parent, I took responsibility for my family and found alternative ways to correct our problem..when Science was not. It also didn't take a rocket scientist degree to put this in place either - just some basic common sense and using a natural doctor's guidance in the beginning. Putting myself in the "zone" would not give me the excellent health results that I have today, because my body is not the same as another person's and I have different needs. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have my own *zone* that I live by. If you want or need a guideline to follow, I would say the *zone diet* might be good to get someone started, but it could change, because Science is always subject to change.
Also, the 30% protein, I disagree. That is not completely correct for an athletic or even myself when I do Bikram and over stretching...because you need extra protein for repairing your ligaments and joints. | |
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| as far as i know flax seed provides an alternate source for omega-3 oils that meat eaters can get in cold water fish, like salmon. i also thought that heat and light damaged it.. and that you should add it to food after you cook it..like salad dressing. | |
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| Lumping two different diets together without understanding either of them is just ignorant. The Zone is not the same as the high protein/low carb Atkin's diet and shouldn't be lumped together with it. I'm not saying you are igorant. The Zone is misunderstood by the media and has been branded low-carb/high protein and now everyone lumps it together with Atkins. It's a totally different thing. It's a balanced diet that favors a higher percentage of favorable carbs, just like your momma told you to eat, just like common sense tells you to eat. It just breaks down the optimum balance using science and gives you some specific numbers to work with. I know many people that "eat healthy" and don't "get results." They wonder why they work out so much and eat all the healthy foods, but don't get the results they want. This is for them. Take all your healthy foods and calculate some good portion controls to bring you into the zone. Voila! True it is not perfect for everybody and it has to be fine tuned occassionally, but it does work. I've experienced it personally and seen other people have great results. Whether you choose to follow it is up to you. I find it ridiculous that you bash a high protein Atkin's diet in the first paragragh, then advocate eating more protein in the following paragraph. If you actually measured out how much protein you eat, you'd find 30% to be plenty. At 200lbs, I'm not lacking in protein, I keep putting on more muscle. It's a real eye-opener to measure your food and your consumption of macronutrients. You see that either you eat way too much protein and not enough fruits and vegetables or way too many carbs and not enough protein. Common sense will tell you that it's better to have a balance.
It is true that science has a bad rap because one minute they tell you eggs are great, then the next day they're bad. One day fat free is the way to go, then it's low carb, then it's high protein. It's hard to make sense of it all. It's downright aggravating. I don't blame you for being upset at doctors, schools, fad diets. I'm equally upset by all those things. I hate that I have to search high and low for foods that don't contain partially hydrogenated oils, monosodium glutamate, tons of sodium, bleached flour, corn syrup. I hate the fact that in order to eat "healthy" it seems like I have to pay twice as much for less food. I hate all the junk science and quick fixes that don't work. I'm just saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If you were to take the time to actually research the Zone, you'd find that it makes good sense: scientific and common sense. It's about balance. It's very yoga friendly. It's not about just losing weight to fit into a bathing suit. It's about controling your insulin levels. It's recommended for those that suffer from or are disposed to diabetes. It is also the choice of many elite athletes. It's not a fad. In fact, it is far too difficult to ever become a fad. That's probably why it didn't catch on like Atkins. It requires an almost obsessive amount of work to weigh all your foods and create zone meals. It's simple, but it ain't easy. But for those people like athletes or vegetarians that are already somewhat obsessive about WHAT they eat, the Zone is a great way to determine HOW MUCH to eat. It is a commitment, a practice, a lifestyle. For me the Zone is like the Yoga of eating. It requires daily practice. It is exact in its alignments. It's challenging but infinitely rewarding.
Like yoga you have to experience it to understand it fully. I have friends that don't understand yoga and dismiss yoga as a fad. Experience is a great teacher. I'm sure that science can prove that yoga doesn't lead to enlightenment, but for all those that experience it, you can't take it away from them or tell them otherwise.
Cyndi - 2005-03-17 5:03 PM
I'm certainly not going to argue with *science*...but I'm really glad that I don't have to rely on it. Right now you recommend the Zone diet, until your science changes and says "oops, sorry we were wrong". Kinda like the Atkins diet that was so popular and now studies in Germany are proving it wrong - that was in the news a while back.
Actually, using common sense is probably the best answer to diet and balance - what has happened to using your brain and own judgement and tuning into that?? I can't believe that people are that stupid. These are things that people have been doing for thousands of years and have managed to do just fine. If I relied on Science, I'd be dead right now. Besides, I used to go to western doctors and have this same argument while they were pumping my children with their antibiotics and pills, my children were sick all the time and they never could give me answers as to why. Guess what?? After throwing in the science towel....We don't get sick every winter with the flu, we don't catch colds and we live a happy wholesome balanced life. My daughter doesn't throw up in the middle of the night because her school fed her the wrong type of food for her body's needs and she doesn't get pinworms because of the raw salad she ate at school because they don't wash the lettuce, by trying to be healthy! As a parent, I took responsibility for my family and found alternative ways to correct our problem..when Science was not. It also didn't take a rocket scientist degree to put this in place either - just some basic common sense and using a natural doctor's guidance in the beginning. Putting myself in the "zone" would not give me the excellent health results that I have today, because my body is not the same as another person's and I have different needs. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have my own *zone* that I live by. If you want or need a guideline to follow, I would say the *zone diet* might be good to get someone started, but it could change, because Science is always subject to change.
Also, the 30% protein, I disagree. That is not completely correct for an athletic or even myself when I do Bikram and over stretching...because you need extra protein for repairing your ligaments and joints. | |
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| Now, when you guys say "rice" are we assuming whole-grain brown rice, or Minute Rice? I don't believe that the whole-grain brown variety is such a horrible carb. I'm tired of people saying a blanket "bread and rice and pasta are bad because they are carbs" without differentiating between whole grains and refined grains. Not really the people on these boards so much as the people I work with and the folks in my family. You guys are a lot more educated on nutrition than my coworkers for sure.
If I may rant for a moment, the South Beach Diet (which I am NOT comparing to The Zone so hold your fire!!) approves of whole grains, but for the induction phase you must give up ALL carbs. It's as if the public is just too hopelessly stupid to understand the difference between a whole grain and a slice of Wonder Bread! Maybe I'm giving the public too much credit here . . .
Anyway, some of us need more fiber in our lives than most straight proteins can provide. Except, of course, beans! The musical fruit! | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-03-17 8:22 PM
Now, when you guys say "rice" are we assuming whole-grain brown rice, or Minute Rice? I don't believe that the whole-grain brown variety is such a horrible carb. I'm tired of people saying a blanket "bread and rice and pasta are bad because they are carbs" without differentiating between whole grains and refined grains. Not really the people on these boards so much as the people I work with and the folks in my family. You guys are a lot more educated on nutrition than my coworkers for sure.
If I may rant for a moment, the South Beach Diet (which I am NOT comparing to The Zone so hold your fire!!) approves of whole grains, but for the induction phase you must give up ALL carbs. It's as if the public is just too hopelessly stupid to understand the difference between a whole grain and a slice of Wonder Bread! Maybe I'm giving the public too much credit here . . .
Anyway, some of us need more fiber in our lives than most straight proteins can provide. Except, of course, beans! The musical fruit!
Jean
It depends. Certainly there are more favorable and less favorable carbs. Green vegetables are probably the most favorable variety, then fruits, then whole grains. "Favorable" generally assumes that they have a lower glycemic index (GI) which doesn't create a large insulin spike. "Favorable" also connotes that they are higher in vitamins, minerals and fibre. The fact that whole grain is better than bleached/refined/processed grains is pretty obvious and few people contest that. However the fact is that all grains generally have a higher GI and you don't get as much nutritional bang for your buck. If you were going to eat 9 grams of carbs you could get that from 1/2 a slice of bread (whole grain if you prefer) or you can eat 1/2 an apple or you can eat 2 cups of brocolli. (you have to discount the fibre) Which do you think has more nutritional value? Which do you think will make you feel more full?
If you were following a Zone diet, (a balanced meal of 36g of carbs, 28g protein and 6g of fat) your carbs could come from either 2 slices of bread, 2 apples, 8 cups of brocolli, or some combo of those. The protein could be 6oz. of Turkey and fat could come from 12 almonds. So if grains are the main source of carbohydrates for your diet/lifestyle you are getting a lot more carbs with a higher GI. If you get your carbs from vegetables and fruits, you can eat a lot more food with a lower GI profile. Food has a hormonal impact. That is why we have "comfort foods" and eat when we are depressed. Helping control and balance that is part of what the Zone is about: regulating your insulin levels. For all you vegetarians check out: ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060393106/qid=1111160977/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6352809-4818362?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 )
On another note, there is a lot of good evidence to suggest that a paleolithic diet is the way to go (i.e. a hunter gatherer diet, sometimes referred to as a meat and berries diet). I have been reading up on it and there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the neolithic diet has done more harm than good. When man started farming and became more agricultural disease rates rose and mortality rates increased. ( http://www.thepaleodiet.com/ ). I am starting to like the idea of eating meats, veges, fruits and nuts in Zone proportions and giving up grains. To me it makes sense, and I've it have great effects on people. I'm just starting to get into the zone and find it to be extremely difficult but very rewarding.
So are carbs bad? Generally no, but there are some that you want to avoid. ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345469585/qid=1111162306/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-6352809-4818362?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 ) ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671038680/qid=1111162333/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-6352809-4818362 ) Are grains bad? Maybe. Are whole grains better than white grains? Definitely. What is the answer? I don't know. However, common sense says "eat more fruits and vegetables." The Zone advocates that. The Paleodiet advocates that. Even the South Beach advocates that after a month apparently. So I am gonna go out on a limb and say that you should eat more fruits and vegetables. How much fruits and veges should you eat? Well the Zone will tell you 9g of carbs to every 7g of protein. That's a LOT of fruits and veges. I've eaten more apples and greens this month than I can count. So as far as I am concerned, a "fad diet" that has me eating more green vegetables and fruits and healthy foods is a fad I want to be a part of. I am trying to ween myself off grains and go more Paleo. Yes, I had a slice of pizza and a beer last night (cheated) and oatmeal this morning (with my eggs and almonds so I was in the Zone). I'm only human. But I have a plan and I'm trying to stick to it.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-03-18 11:19 AM
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| So, you are saying that you like The Zone? Just want to make sure I understand. | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-03-18 11:48 AM
So, you are saying that you like The Zone? Just want to make sure I understand.
Jean, you totally missed my point. GOSH!!!!! 
If you and Cyndi don't want to believe western science, then look to the ancient Taoist priests that practiced "BIGU" which translates to avoid (BI) the grain (GU).
Check out some of these links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=taoist+bigu+grain
Apparently this has been interpreted by many Taoist practitioners as total fasting, but it also has been interpreted more literally. It strengthens the QI!!!
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| If I had just said, "eat more fruits and vegetables." I would get lots of Hallelujahs! But if I say, follow the Zone and get 40% of your daily calories from fruits and vegetables in an exact proportion to the amount of lean proteins and good fats in your diet, then I get "boo science" and "boo fad diets!"
People put up their guard as soon as they read the words "Diet" and "Zone" and "Dr." and "Book." All they see is "fad" and "low carb" and "junk science."
I haven't said, "don't be vegetarian," or "stop eating all carbs," or "your diet sucks." I'm just saying that maybe we should consider how much of everything we are eating. Everyone talks in very subjective terms and says you should eat "more" of this and "less" of that. That's good, but it could be better. How much protein and carbs and fats should you eat? Very few people have a good answer. I found a good answer to that question which appears to work so I am using that as my guide.
It's obvious from the amount of fat people in the world and on this board that there is not enough time spent figuring out how much we should be eating. People offer great advice about what to eat and what not to eat. I've offered a source for very specific guidelines on HOW MUCH to eat. If you read "Enter the Zone" by Dr. Sears you can figure out how much you should be eating everyday at every meal. You can keep guessing. I see a lot of people that eat "healthy" foods and are in horrible shape. Or you can take control of your diet and eating habits and start living and eating mindfully.
It's a path, it's a choice. No one says you have to practice yoga, but you do and you see the benefits. If we practiced some yoga eating habits we would see the benefits too. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Yogaguy,
I don't understand why you think you have to convince me that you are right! I'm not trying to compete with you and I don't totally discredit your zone diet...it's the presentation. I read your last post about altering it and how it could be adjusted...that's good. I just don't 100% believe in science. In fact, what I do believe is science and technology is going to destroy this planet one day because of the close mindedness that is associated with it. However, I have to say this, I do believe in a balance of both. We have come a long way in learning technology. My Father is a computer scientist...I respect him and what he has contributed to the cause of science. But, there have been too many mistakes and lots of suffering is happening every day because of science. When talking with someone who is so headstrong about their belief's, especially a science person, they don't want to hear a simple minded explanation..which is what I find to be rather insulting to my intelligence. If you speak with a Traditional Oriental Doctor, they have their belief's but they are so open minded to *science* and actually use some of it. To me, that is a very intelligent person. I am also from the belief that we would be in a perfect world if we balanced nature and science/technology. I like technology and I love nature and depend on it. Unfortunately, there are too many idiots in the world that only see one way - their way which is limited and not open to nature which has existed forever on this earth. As for your zone diet, I'm sure it is very good...but like everything, its not always going to be good for everybody and don't try to rob me of my knowledge of what I know to be true as well...I'm not stupid and I've had some really good results with my simple mind and my simple natural intelligence. So, please no hard feelings, I respect you...give a little too, okay? Have a blessed day!
Namaste`
Cyndi
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-18 12:30 PM
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| I'm not for or against western science, generally speaking. Western science and I can peacefully coexist, as long as we don't have to cross paths any more often than necessary. All those facts and stuff . . . what's a girl to do?
I just don't have the attention span or math skills to stick to any particular program, no matter how easy or effective it may be. I'm just not hard-wired to calculate percentages of anything, I know myself and that detracts from my general enjoyment of life. I eat what I like and I like what I eat, and I never feel guilty about any of it. I hope that's true of everyone - if you enjoy your food and feel good, then God love ya. Who cares if you're on The Zone or Weight Watchers or Atkins or Cabbage Soup or the Ghirardelli Chocolate Only diet.
Except when it comes to parties, then if everyone could just pack a lunch that would be great. At Christmas I had to plan a meal at my mom's house for the whole family. My aunt & uncle are on South Beach, my mom and grandpa can't have sodium, cousin is allergic to mushrooms, and my mom announced that the central themes of the meal must include turkey and shrimp. Also that it must be "Christmassy." I decided another central theme would be "lots of wine." | |
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| JeansYoga - I love your attitude and outlook on life! I bet you're a fun girl to hang with | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Oh Jean, I hear you on that one. What happened to the simple life??? I hope and pray that people in the world can get back to nature, relax and enjoy life...it doesn't have to be this complicated. If you really want a taste of YOGA...MEDITATION...come to my house in the mountains...you would go crazy with boredom - the earth is so silent here. Me, I totally love it and could stay at my house for weeks and never crank my car!!! I dread my trip to the city today because when I get there it will be so nice and fun at first...I'll stay there for a while and notice all the frenzied people who can't keep up with themselves and their dramas...counting their food calories in the grocery store as they are being impatient with their children - all in the name of science/technology. Then, I'll hurry up and get back home out of the rat race -back to peace, back to nature!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-18 12:57 PM
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| Yoga Guy, I've read some of the Zone books and I took away from it what worked for me. There was way too much planning for me, and I do plan out my meals as it is! I agree that about not eating too much carbs and too much fat though. I think that it is a good educational tool to read Dr Sears books, but you have to modify the diet to fit your own lifestyle....even if it means not following it exactly.
P.S. My husband and I love the Zone Bars, they are yummy!
Edited by Gracie 2005-03-18 12:40 PM
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| Like Neel said in another post - I must be casual, for I am the Jean of Yoga! 
Cyndi, your home sounds like paradise! I am sure I'd love it!
I do think of all the "diets with names", The Zone and Weight Watchers seem to be quite logical and sound, in a world full of really scary sounding diets. I have friends who enjoy them very much and find them to be effective and healthy, which is great! I just can't follow them, I gotta be me. A lot of my friends are totally crazy for Curves, and I'm not going there either even though I think they've got a good concept. I'm just bitter because they don't want any yoga classes! 
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-18 12:27 PM
Yogaguy,
I don't understand why you think you have to convince me that you are right! I'm not trying to compete with you and I don't totally discredit your zone diet...it's the presentation. I read your last post about altering it and how it could be adjusted...that's good. I just don't 100% believe in science. In fact, what I do believe is science and technology is going to destroy this planet one day because of the close mindedness that is associated with it. However, I have to say this, I do believe in a balance of both. We have come a long way in learning technology. My Father is a computer scientist...I respect him and what he has contributed to the cause of science. But, there have been too many mistakes and lots of suffering is happening every day because of science. When talking with someone who is so headstrong about their belief's, especially a science person, they don't want to hear a simple minded explanation..which is what I find to be rather insulting to my intelligence. If you speak with a Traditional Oriental Doctor, they have their belief's but they are so open minded to *science* and actually use some of it. To me, that is a very intelligent person. I am also from the belief that we would be in a perfect world if we balanced nature and science/technology. I like technology and I love nature and depend on it. Unfortunately, there are too many idiots in the world that only see one way - their way which is limited and not open to nature which has existed forever on this earth. As for your zone diet, I'm sure it is very good...but like everything, its not always going to be good for everybody and don't try to rob me of my knowledge of what I know to be true as well...I'm not stupid and I've had some really good results with my simple mind and my simple natural intelligence. So, please no hard feelings, I respect you...give a little too, okay? Have a blessed day!
Namaste`
Cyndi
Cyndi
First, I'm a lawyer, so I'm sorry if I sound confrontational and adversarial. I'm trying to debate. You're entitled to and justified in all your beliefs. I'm just saying, don't be quick to condemn something you don't know about. For example, lumping the Zone in the low carb diet group. Not your fault cuz the media does this constantly. Also you said, 30% sounds like not enough protein. If you have never really measured your daily protein, carb & fat intake with a scale, you'd be surprised how much 40/30/30 is. You get a lot of protein. If you were to try eating a simple Zone meal of 4 egg whites, 2 apples and 12 almonds, you would feel surprisingly full and have plenty of protein. (That's a really flavorless example--you can try a tastier meal if you want).
Second, I am not a total science guy. I am also a yoga teacher and martial arts instructor. I am NOT a fan of western medicine for the most part. I am fan of those things that work and are good for you. I take from column A and from Column B. The "I just do what feels good/right" diet doesn't work for most people. Sometimes people need a little help and guidance. I offered a guideline, a real plan with real numbers to follow. Telling people to listen to their bodies doesn't work when their bodies tell them to eat cake and pizza and drink soda. I'm just here to help. You don't have to follow it.
Third, science is going to destroy the world rant is great. But doesn't help solve the problem of how much to eat. I agree mindless behavior will destroy the world, but don't know if it necessarily is a function of science and technology. Furthermore, where do you draw the line? Obviously, not at using the internet.  Will you go back to some of the first scientists: the neolithic farmers. When hunters and gatherers were roaming the earth, the "smart" science types started farming and using "technology" to grow grains. Cordain's work points to that technological "breakthrough" as to the start of our decline into disease. So I am not disputing you, just taking it a step further.
Finally, I am not trying to rob you of what you know. I am trying to clarify what you know and what I know. How many carbs are too many? How much protein is too much? Do you KNOW. Do you think you know? Are you guessing? I don't KNOW. But I have a guideline to follow. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. So far I like it and it works. Will I tweek it. Maybe, but I have to give it a fair shot first before I dismiss it or tweek it. After a couple months maybe I will reevaluate my position. But for now I have a plan. I'm offering it up for inspection and debate.
You have your plan and I have mine. I'm not trying to take anything away from you.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I don't know Jean, I think one day Curves will change their mind and offer Yoga. Crunch has Yoga in their clubs. My husband says the Yoga instructors there are a joke!! So who knows, the trend is catching on..even up here in the mountains they like Yoga!! Its funny if you say Buddhist here they look at you strange...but if you say Yoga, they say Oh yea!
Yoga guy, I don't mind the debate...they do this all the time in Tibet. You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks. Fortunately, my Tibetan is not all that great..I would say constantly Cheze, which means what did you say?? They would have to stop their debating and explain it to me. Debating is healthy, just as long as it is debating and nothing else. I won't take it personally...you don't either okay! Have fun in Costa Rica...I wish I were going too!! Take care,
Cyndi | |
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| Gracie - 2005-03-18 12:38 PM
Yoga Guy, I've read some of the Zone books and I took away from it what worked for me. There was way too much planning for me, and I do plan out my meals as it is! I agree that about not eating too much carbs and too much fat though. I think that it is a good educational tool to read Dr Sears books, but you have to modify the diet to fit your own lifestyle....even if it means not following it exactly.
P.S. My husband and I love the Zone Bars, they are yummy!
The sad part about the Zone is that it is a TOTAL PAIN IN THE A$$ to follow. It is very much like doing the hardest yoga practice of your life 5 times a day. It requires attention to detail and being meticulous in how you measure your foods. Just like focusing on your alignment, bandhas, breathing and drishti. Since I work 12 or more hours a day and eat almost all my meals out, I find it especially hard to stick with it. But it is worth the effort and one Zone meal is better than none. Just like practicing yoga, it's better to practice a little every day than a lot all at once. So even if I stay in the zone during the day and slip at dinner, I feel way better than if I ate like cr@p all day. If If I manage to go 2 or 3 days in the Zone, I'm flying high.
From my experience the quality of the results in dieting and in yoga are equal to the quality of the effort. If you are not exact in your poses and breathing you do not get the same benefits. If you are not exact in your measuring and eating you do not get the same results.
Jean: if you were to apply your devil may care eating habits to your yoga practice, you probably wouldn't be as good a yogi. If your students turned to you when you told them about proper alignment and said, "well I don't feel like it and I feel better like this" you would probably have a talk with them about the benefits of proper alignment and form.
Yet we (cuz I'm guilt of this too) feel that taking the effort to align our diet is somehow less important. Whether it is aligning it to ayurveda or the zone. Why is that? Shouldn't we as yogis and yoga teachers be as exact in our diet as in our practice? We react so strongly when we see people kicking up into headstands or turning their knees in funny ways and even cringe when we think about smoking. However if we see a sugar filled cake or a loaf of bread we'll gladly devour it.
I think it is because food, more than anything else is tied to our hormones and our emotions-- much more than yoga and chakras and any other physical practice. I think the more we understand that the more we can use that to our advantage to control our emotions and become more calm. The more mindful we become of our emotions. Isn't that what walking the path is about? Don't we all owe it to ourselves to try to be more exact and more in control of how we eat and what we eat and how much we eat?
Is the practice of yoga just about being more flexible or is it something more? | |
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| Here is an excerpt from "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" by Daniel P. Reid. He's a westerner who's been living in Taiwan for a couple of decades studying from Taoist masters.
"Grains have been the mainstay of the human diet for only 6,000 or 7,000 years, and thus the Taoist sages of ancient China recognized them as relative newcomers to the human diet with deleterious effects on human health and longevity. Throughout the ancient Taoist literature on health and longevity we find the term bi-gu (avoid grains) cropping up over and over....the fact that for the past several thousand years the traditional Chinese diet has consisted of 80-90% grains simply reflects the requirements of over-population. Taoists who avoid grains live much healthier and longer lives than the general populace..." | |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-18 1:47 PM
I don't know Jean, I think one day Curves will change their mind and offer Yoga. Crunch has Yoga in their clubs. My husband says the Yoga instructors there are a joke!! So who knows, the trend is catching on..even up here in the mountains they like Yoga!! Its funny if you say Buddhist here they look at you strange...but if you say Yoga, they say Oh yea!
Yoga guy, I don't mind the debate...they do this all the time in Tibet. You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks. Fortunately, my Tibetan is not all that great..I would say constantly Cheze, which means what did you say?? They would have to stop their debating and explain it to me. Debating is healthy, just as long as it is debating and nothing else. I won't take it personally...you don't either okay! Have fun in Costa Rica...I wish I were going too!! Take care,
Cyndi
Well I teach yoga at Crunch so I don't know how I should take that. I guess your hubby is going to have to come to my class one night and then we can go out for rice & dal afterwards.
PS - Crunch has had yoga in their clubs since they started which predates Curves by several years.
PPS - Curves sucks.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-03-18 2:14 PM
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| YogaGuy: Not really looking for diet advice, but thanks for the scolding. Just because I don't weigh and calculate the micronutrient percentage of everything I put in my mouth doesn't mean that I'm shoveling Spam and Wonder Bread sandwiches in my mouth all day. I do actually LIKE vegetables, you know!
And I don't get too strict with my students either - I don't let them hurt themselves, but everyone's body is different so no, I don't force them into alignments that aren't comfortable for them yet. That scares away a lot of beginners. I'm sure you'll find something dreadfully wrong with that too, so I'll hold out my hand now for you to slap. | |
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| Cyndi wrote:
"You should be in a car driving to NYC with 4 monks and 1 Rinpoche in a debate for 20 hours and a road trip that lasted for 3 weeks."
OMG! I'm pretty sure if that happened to me, only one person would be left alive at the end of that trip....posssibly not though--I might have to use the last of the 6 bullets on myself.
Kind of a Non sequitor--in Alaska, when cityslickers come up to bear hunt, the Alaskan gun shops have signs that read: "Bear Hunters: Gun sights filed off for free." When the new folks ask, why, the response is, "So it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves the barrel up your a$$." | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-03-18 3:52 PM
YogaGuy: Not really looking for diet advice, but thanks for the scolding. Just because I don't weigh and calculate the micronutrient percentage of everything I put in my mouth doesn't mean that I'm shoveling Spam and Wonder Bread sandwiches in my mouth all day. I do actually LIKE vegetables, you know!
And I don't get too strict with my students either - I don't let them hurt themselves, but everyone's body is different so no, I don't force them into alignments that aren't comfortable for them yet. That scares away a lot of beginners. I'm sure you'll find something dreadfully wrong with that too, so I'll hold out my hand now for you to slap.
Not trying to scold, Jean. Just food for thought. You go ahead with your casual self! Despite my ranting, I am really not that an@l. Although I try to be mindful. I don't force my students to do anything. But I do make lots of suggestions.
I think alignment and form are important. I think breathing and bandhas are important. I think mindfulness is important. Teaching for me is a balance of toughness and compassion. Moving deeper into the practice is about finding your edge and your limits. I think my job is very much about helping people find that edge in their practice. Not by force, but through discipline and compassion. I don't think I'm the only teacher to think this way. I could swear that Erich Schiffman talks about it too.
It's easy to let yourself and your students get away with stuff, but easy is not what it's all about. We all do it. But that doesn't make it right. That is not the Practice. The Practice is doing the impossible, the boring, the difficult stuff every day and transforming it into the easy stuff. That is where we develop and get stronger, better, more enlightened. The first few times you tell people to press their palms together overhead they balk and cheat and get tired after 2 breaths. However, through practice, their palms meet gracefully, the elbows straighten and the shoulders relax away from the ears and they hold the position through many deep ujjayi breaths. Things get learned and re-learned constantly in yoga. It's all about continued practice and attention to the details: bandhas, breath, alignment.
I don't make my students do anything, but I ask them to try and be mindful and practice patiently and expect that through practice the difficult will become easy and the impossible will become difficult.
Apparently, Cyndi and her husband think that this makes me a joke. So to each their own.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-03-18 5:10 PM
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| YogaGuy - 2005-03-19 4:05 AM
Here is an excerpt from "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" by Daniel P. Reid. He's a westerner who's been living in Taiwan for a couple of decades studying from Taoist masters.
"Grains have been the mainstay of the human diet for only 6,000 or 7,000 years, and thus the Taoist sages of ancient China recognized them as relative newcomers to the human diet with deleterious effects on human health and longevity. Throughout the ancient Taoist literature on health and longevity we find the term bi-gu (avoid grains) cropping up over and over....the fact that for the past several thousand years the traditional Chinese diet has consisted of 80-90% grains simply reflects the requirements of over-population. Taoists who avoid grains live much healthier and longer lives than the general populace..."
keith! i am reading this book right now - i love it.
if you forget the label "the zone" and just eat 40/30/30 you will see that it does work.
for anyone who wants to take the guess work out of their daily intake - try this:
http://www.fitday.com/
i have found it really helps me to eat enough calories, tells me when i am lacking nutrients and gives me the option of customizing foods that i eat that may not be on standard lists (this is important for me since i dont live in north america). i am eating a lot better (for me, that means eating enough protein and enough calories) since i started using it.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Sorry Keith,
I didn't know you worked for Crunch....otherwise, I would of held that tidbit back. I was referring to another location, not yours..I am sure you are a fine Yoga Instructor:~)
Bruce, about the monks and my roadtrip....it was the funnest trip I ever had for me and my daughter. When you are around Tibetans and they debate, they don't get upset and fight with each other by hurling insults, they mutually respect each other's opinion and then they drink chai together afterwards like brothers. It's an incredible experience of watching them peacefully demonstrate and its a lost art.
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| wow, thank you easternsun! great site. | |
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| That is a neat site Easternsun! I've been looking for something like that. I used to belong to ishape.com, but it costs too much and I wasn't using enough of the features (they pre-plan your menus, so you have to delete them every day and enter your own food). It is always interesting to see how everything measures up! Does it have an "antagonizing" feature if you're not in the Zone, like this website seems to have?
I don't know how Crunch works, because we don't have one out here in Michigan. We have more Curves than we have stop signs though! Curves is a franchise, so some of the owners are more laid-back than others - some of them have yoga classes and let you bring your dog and everything. Others are real strict about following the Curves plan and that's all, with no variation. Our local Curves takes their business more seriously than NASA, so yoga teachers are NOT welcome! And yes, that does suck! | |
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| I have to put in my two cents in this thread. I've been a vegetarian for five years. I've eaten vegan for more than a year at a time although I don't like to label myself that way anymore.
I have a friend who is a nutritionist for olympic athletes and she can't stand any of the high protein low-carb diets. She says that they will kill you in the long run as they are really hard on the kidneys.
I am a journalist and I have a friend (another journalist) who wrote an article on the high-protein fad. She has a friend who has been on the high-protein diet for a couple of years. Yes, she has lost a lot of weight but she is also weak and sick all the time. She won't go off it now because her self-esteem is higher as a thin woman than as a healthy one. Such is society today.
Eating complementary proteins is an excellent way to go and most vegans get more than enough protein without ever thinking about. Real concerns being a vegan are more along the lines of B12, Iron and Calcium.
If you eat two pieces of grainy toast with a nut butter (peanut, cashew...) you are getting more than enough of all your different amino acids. And recent studies suggest that you don't need to get all of your amino acids in one meal but throughout the day.
Eating whole grains like brown rice are extremely good for the body. Not only that but they are filling and you are bond to eat less as you won't feel hungry as quickly.
This is a great article on vegan nutrition. http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html
I hope that helps. | |
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Sources of protein for vegans