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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
I sometimes feel that studying the sutras in Sanskrit makes it harder for
me to absorb the concepts in them. For those of us know only a few
words of Sanskrit, and no grammar at all, why bother working with the
Sutras in anything other than our own language (e.g., English). For example,
one doesn't normal study the Christian Bible in Aramaic or Ancient Greek.
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| Dear BG:
There are people who study bible in other languages. In fact, the missionaries print them in different languages with the purpose of converting others.
The Sutras need to be studied in the language one can read and understand. However, the person who put them in that language, must know the correct Sanskrit Meaning. Otherwise, the idea can never be expressed correctly. For example, mind in English does NOT mean mana, chittam, buddhi, indriya, antahkarana in Sanskrit. So, when one explains that word mind during the Sutra study, they have to explain it well. I tried this during my speeches.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Then what is the purpose of chanting the Sutras in Sanskrit?
I enjoy doing it, but I'd memorize the meanings much faster
if I were to chant them in English, although I suppose that might
sound a little weird!
Sri mat Patanjali maha muniyeh namah:
Atta Patanjala yoga sutra....
etc etc |
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| Hi Neel,
I was looking at buying a translation of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and wasn't sure which one would be a good one, as you pointed out, alot depends on the person translating....I have just ordered The Heart of Yoga by TKV Desikachar, apparently there is a section in the book on the Sutras, I wonder if his translation is much different to others....BKS Iyengar's Light on the Sutras was another book I almost bought...have you any recommendations?
Thanks
Laura |
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| Dear BG:
Advantage of Chanting the Sutras - To memorize them. Advantage of Memorization - Contemplation and Reference when needed.
Dear Loli:
For recommendations: See the postings under the General meditation last thread.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| BG.
I know allot of Bible people who take Hebrew and Greek just so they can read the bible in the native tongue for a better understanding. I m the guy who would just take their word for it. One time a couple a friends got into a disagreement of the word english word love and that the greeks had several words to descibe different flavors of love. I don't know it is all greek to me. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-02-27 4:00 PM
Dear BG:
Advantage of Chanting the Sutras - To memorize them. Advantage of Memorization - Contemplation and Reference when needed.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
Dear Neel,
I agree that chanting helps memory. My problem is that I am memorizing a
language that I barely understand. Maybe the Sutras can be set into English
in a chantable meter....
BG |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Balen ---
I know yoga people who are learning Sanskrit just so they can study
the Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita.
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| Dear BG:
Let me correct myself. Chanting is for memorization of the sutra and also the understood meaning of it along with it. And, then use them for reference and contemplation. Now, the meaning of the Sutra must come from direct or indirect Sanskrit Source or Teacher. When you explain, it can be in any language.
To convert Sutras into English is NOT an easy task. But, that is not a bad idea. For example, my book Health and Yoga Aphorisms of SaeeTech, which is a classic of 21st Cetury, is available in 11 languages in Aphorism form. However, I had to spend many hours to explain the translator so that the meaning is same as I worte originally. Now, fyi, the original is in English. The last translation done is in Sanskrit, by the Scholar Dr. Deviprasad Kharavandikar and it is a Sanskrit Verse. I can sing it in a Classical Indian Tune.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Dear Sivaram:
kulkarn:
Are you refering to Patanjali re: God's Grace is must for Asamprajnata Samadhi? (the later is definitely a word from Patanjali)
No, and when I refer to him I’ll usually try to follow the practice of providing a citation and support. The Yoga Sutra is a terse outline, and difficult to understand without the commentaries provided by Vyasa and others, and one's own teachers. So I am going outside the text when I make the claim that God's grace is necessary, as this is the teaching in my tradition. I’ve read and heard this many times, although referring to Asamprajnata Samadhi may not be technically correct, and should perhaps be just Samadhi, without reference to that stage.
Vyasa’s (yes, obviously it’s not the same Vyasa as the author of the Mahabharata) commentary on Sutra 1:23
Or by special devotion to the Lord (to reach Samadhi)
says this: “As a result of the special devotion which is bhakti (love of God) the Lord bends down to him and rewards him according to what he has meditated on. If the yogin has meditated on it, the attainment of samadhi and its fruit is near at hand.”
Neel, what’s your feeling on this?
I like the modification you made from Asamprajnata to only Samadhi while refering to your Devotion topic. Yes, I like the above statekents related to Patanjali commentary. The sutra: ishwarapranidhaanaadvaa truely means that Asamprajnata samadhi which is in the previous sutra is Also (va) obtainable by Devotion to Ishwara.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Oh please do not change the Sutra's to English for chanting...I visited a Tibetan Buddhist Temple once where they did that...it didn't sound good and I didn't like it at all. The Tibetan Temple that I did visit regularly did not do that and we learned to chant in Tibetan and it had more power even if we didn't know the entire meaning. It takes time to learn it all and it doesn't matter. This is the same now when I chant Mantras and Sutras. I learn the Sanskrit meaning and chant in the proper way. The Sutras and Mantras just have so much more power in their original form and they have so much more meaning this way. The English Language words cannot describe them fully...trust me. It would be like diluting the Sanskrit Language...kinda like drinking a half glass of orange juice with a half glass of water. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I would also like to add to my post after more contemplating and speaking with Satyam. He explained to me in his very simple terms and I'm sure NeelBhai will have lots to add.... Satyam pointed out to me about Sanskrit (which was taught to him by his Mother as a child - his interpretation to me is in very simple terms on a simple level) that Sanskrit is the Universal Language - the orginal and all languages came from it. It is also the language that the God's used when they were on the Earth and when the earth was in a more pure form..i.e. Krishna, etc. By speaking in Sanskrit you are directly talking with God and when you speak the Sutras and Mantras in English, its like a process that takes too long - too much red tape and the meaning is not as clear...so by chanting in Sanskrit, even though you may not know the meaning today, next week or month or years...one day, that Mantra will give you your answer - you will know. He also mentioned that 2 lines of Sanskrit can make up 3-4 pages of meaning, which I think most everyone knows that. I thought that was interesting and was basically what I was trying to say too. But, if you want to change them to English, you have my blessing, it was just wierd when I went to that Temple and heard that, it just felt like chanting words and not much meaning was there and it wasn't strong like speaking in Sanskrit. Maybe this is because I've been in the temples where all they do is chant is Sanskrit, and I'm sometimes clueless about the meaning, but it is getting to the point where I sometimes understand too - naturally. Like I chanted the Navagraha Pooja the other day and like I didn't have a choice, you have to in order to do the pooja...and yes, I felt something and it was good - feels more comfortable than when I first started.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-28 7:54 PM
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| There is something special about Sanskrit in terms of its phoneticism, pronunciation, and relationn to vibrationns produced, no doubt. I have experienced this myself, so no doubt about it.
Now, about God's living on earth when it was pure, their talking in that language, etc are all Interpretations. I do not wish to open this can of worms, soory of Gods!!!
Sanskrit is NOT the Mother of all languages. I am hundred percent sure that Sanskrit and English come from one other language which existed before. I can not discuss this topic more here for lack of time. If you are interested, you can probably search on the Net.
Now, there is one thing I wish to point out, with advanced apologies if I misunderstood the original statements of Sister Cyndi:
When sister Cyndi talks about sutras and mantras for chanting, I think she is taling about tibetan sutras which are also mantras. Patanjali sutras are NOT really mantras, though I myself worship them like mantras. The Patanjali sutras are aphorisms, which mean lot of meaning in short space, same as what Sister Cyndi wrote.
I do feel that one should memorize Sanskrit Aphorisms if possible, but one must know the meaning of the words in Sanskrit. Otherwise, one may do that in whatever language, if the translation is accurate. However, this has a danger of diversion more and more with time when more translations in many a langugages take place.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | the post above is SPAM. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-03-01 10:55 AM
I do feel that one should memorize Sanskrit Aphorisms if possible, but one must know the meaning of the words in Sanskrit. Otherwise, one may do that in whatever language, if the translation is accurate. However, this has a danger of diversion more and more with time when more translations in many a langugages take place.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
This has made me want to have a glossary of Sanskrit words found in the Yoga Sutras.
I think there may be one in Desikachar (I'll check later), but does anybody have a
recommendation on a glossary?
There's at least one Sanskrit dictionary available for download in pdf format, but that's
got far more words that needed to deal with the Sutras.
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| dear Bay Guy:
I have not read Desikachar. You may find one of Joseph Chappel or someone bby that last name. That has each word given. My translation will be complete when I finish my speeches in May. The first chapter is complete so far. At that time, I shall probably make a glossary of terms.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Can I have a copy of your glossary NeelBhai? Please, Please?? |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-05 11:48 AM
Can I have a copy of your glossary NeelBhai? Please, Please??
CyndiBen:
Thanks for quoting kitaro. I bow down to him several times. My translation with glossary will be complete after a few months. You will see it on the www.authenticyoga.org. At present, if you wish to purchase the Patanjali Chapter 1 Speeches Video (7 hours total), it is available. 75 dollars inncluding mailing in USA.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Brother Neel,
Is this video tape or DVD? |
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| I have made this in a video CD which can be observed using
a) computer CD drive
b) computer DVD drive
c) commercial DVD player
I can also make this into a VHS tape someone wants so, but I shall charge 25 dollars to transfer all these 7 to VHS tape.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
You need to get this all onto your web site.
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| OK Brother BG, I shall do this tomorrow, Saturday.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Here's a site with the Sutras online.
http://www.bindu.freeserve.co.uk/yoga/yogasutra/overview.htm
It has Desikachar's translation as the main text, but it also gives
comparitive translations for each sutra (as on the following link)
http://www.bindu.freeserve.co.uk/yoga/yogasutra/ys2_comments.htm#sutra2.28
I've found this site very useful.
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| Hello Brother BG:
Now the entire Patajali Speeches are reccorded on Video CD. They are 17 hours. They can be purchased from me for 175 dollars including shipping.
Regards
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Hello Brother Neel!
17 hours!!? That's quite a bit of time and thought you've put into this.
I will have to think about whether I can afford the price, however, which
is not inexpensive for me. I am puzzled about the format you mention,
(video CD). Did you do this using mpegs on CD?
Bay Guy |
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| Dear Brother Guy:
This is the recording of Lectures I was asked to give on Patanjali Yoga Sutras, as a part of Teacher Training at one school, but also was open to others. There were 4 sessions and they took around 17 hours to complete. Each video CD is 1 hour approx, and it can be viewed on a computer or on a DVD player. Yes, I think the actually files shall be mpeg.
Regards
neel kulkarni |
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| Brother Bay Guy,
I have found several benefits to studying the Sutras in Sanskrit with a good transliteration. One is that pronouncing the Sanskrit words seems to be activating points on the roof of the mouth and tongue. This helps with the Mantric Yoga.
Another is that when looking at the various definitions of each word, there can be several meanings. This makes the study more enriching, exiciting, and mysterious altogether. It leaves less room for precision and more room for speculation making it a broader practice for many people. This can in and of itself compel one to more compassion. When having more compassion, Ahimsa becomes natural and effortless.
So by studying the Sutras in Sanskrit and looking closely at the transliteration and translation, you have a greater ability to transform the intellectual understanding into practice.
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| Dear Dreamerge:
Please do not take my comments offesively, because I may have understood you wrongly what you meant (I am only assuming what I see you wrote) and I do not know your background:
I have found several benefits to studying the Sutras in Sanskrit with a good transliteration.
===> What does studying in Sanskrit mean? And, what does 'with transliteration' mean? I thought transliteration tells how to pronounce, and does not help any further understanding of sutras.
One is that pronouncing the Sanskrit words seems to be activating points on the roof of the mouth and tongue. This helps with the Mantric Yoga.
===> Wrong. Sutras are NOT really mantras as such. They can be respected as much as Mantras, but the real reason of sutras is to condense understanding in short space for memorization. Of course, the way you chant will have association with memorization as well as with the correctness of pronunciation in Sanskrit. Correct pronunciation in Sanskrit itself is beneficial.
Another is that when looking at the various definitions of each word, there can be several meanings. This makes the study more enriching, exiciting, and mysterious altogether. It leaves less room for precision and more room for speculation making it a broader practice for many people. This can in and of itself compel one to more compassion. When having more compassion, Ahimsa becomes natural and effortless.
===> Wrong. Sutras are written with precision in mind and not for coming up with exciting different meanings of words. For example: in Bhagavadgita, the word Yoga is used several times. At each place its meaning is different, but it is precise at that point. So, when one is talking about Karmayoga, the meaning can be ONLY karmayoga, NOT bhaktiyoga. In the entire Yogasutras, the Yoga means ChittaVrittinNirodha as given in the second Sutra. NOT whatever a person thinks, even though it sounds to make sense. And, allowing many meanings and viewpoints in case of Sutras meaning, is NOT an act of ahimsa.
So by studying the Sutras in Sanskrit and looking closely at the transliteration and translation, you have a greater ability to transform the intellectual understanding into practice.
Best Wishes
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Dear Neel,
No offense taken, in fact gratitude is expressed when the intent is to further my own and other people's understanding of the Sutras.
Transliterate to me means the closest corresponding letters to a given language or alphabet. So yes, it does tell how to pronounce with the definition I was using.
I believe there is a misunderstanding of what I was trying to convey and what you read. That is perhaps my fault for not being able to articulate my thoughts as well as you can with this subject.
I agree with you about the Sutras not being Mantras but being respected as such. I think you put that very well and it makes a lot of sense. That is pretty close to what I was getting at, you just said it better.
I understand that the Sutras have been written at the time with precision in mind. That is something that is important for me as a student to long for, the attainment and understanding of that original precision. I do not believe that the Sutras can mean anything a person thinks for that would deviate from the original purpose. I do, however, believe that when something is translated into another language, when multiple translations are available, it is important to have the ability to see the word for word translation with that text.
Best Wishes
Dreamerge |
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| Thanks Dreamerge. I wish you all the best.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Namaste
Of course, the most important thing is to read the translation and understanding it. But, since translating the Sutras is problematic it is very helpful if you read the Sanskrit two. The bible was mentioned:
As someone who speaks Hebrew I can tell you that if you want to REALY read the bible you have to read it in Hebrew. But it’s not impossible to read a translation of the bible to English and get the right perspective.
If you can’t read the sutras in Sanskrit I recommend that you’ll read more then one translation of the sutras and try to compare them. This can be very helpful.
There is also the common opinion that reading scriptures such as the Vedas out loud in Sanskrit create some sort of mystical vibe that fix the readers consciousness in a certain way that helps our practice, sort of like a Mantra.
http://howtomeditate.tripod.com |
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| Comments on above (Kumar):
Sutras are not Vedas. Vedas which create effects due to Sound are called: samhita and are supposed to be chanted ONLY. brahmanas in Vedas explain Samhitas in textual form.
Comparing various translations will not benefit. It might actually confuse. Now, Sanskrit can only be understood by a Sanskrit knowledgeable. If one does not know Sanskrit, sutras are not going to be understood in Sanskrit.
The Sanskrit and Terminology of Sutras has to be known from who knows Vedantic Philosophy well.
However, from all above, I can accept that even WRONG or incomplete understanding of sutras is advisable. It gives some understanding of the Science of Yoga and are extremely inspiring. Also, it gives a clear idea of how much mental knowledge existed at 300 B.C. which is still not touched by the Psychology.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | It can really bring you up short to realize how much of what was written
2000 or 3000 years ago is directly applicable to what we all do today.
I read a nice translation of the Illiad a few years ago (Richard Lattimore's
translation, I think). It was all about power, and people meeting and posturing
and negotiating. The whole thing sounded exactly like meetings that I'm in all
the time. It was written in 1000 BCE.
Our technology has changed quite a bit over the centuries, but on some levels
we have not changed at all....and so course the old texts can be quite relevant
today.
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-10-13 10:06 PM
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| thanks for that BG. Only technology changed without changing the hearts!!!
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| A bit off topic:
I know that scriptures such as Puranas, Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads are sometimes chanted for the effect of spiritual vibe. Are these scriptures considered Samhitas?
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| No dear Kumar:
Puranas, Upanishads and BG (which is the summary of all Upanishads, and is itself an Upanishad called Geetopanishad), come under Vedanta. Yes, their chanting also gives spiritual benefits. Samhita is ONLY part of vedas.
However, what I said before is:
Vedas have two parts: one for chanting, other explanation.
Samhita is Mainly for Chanting only.
Chanting does NOT mean Samhita.
Another example: The Mahamantra of Vaishnas (hare krishna....) is meant for Chanting and shall give every possible thing. But, that is NOT Vedas and also NOT samhita.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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