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| I see the locked out knee issue being discussed. What about the elbows? Hyper extended elbows? In the past I have brought this up to students but it turned out to be beyond their ability to explore. I have shown maybe 100 students and maybe two have balanced there arm in function and I have not seen the structure come into balance yet. I bring this up, because I feel that half locust plays into hyper extending the elbows. In my own practice I have been aware of this and made the adjustment of intent to bring my arms into better balance. I would teach about arm balance when we raise are arms half way up ( Several postures) but it could not sink in. A hyper extended arm rotates as it hyper extends causing the neck to hold. A balanced arm uses the romboids more and does not rotate. A little different thing happens in the Half Locust. It is "supposed" to have the benefit of strengthening the upper back which the romboids is a part of. I find if a person works hard at flattening their hands onto the floor or even the wrist the elbows are doomed to hyper extend and the arm over twists. In an "ideal" (that is what this post is for???)half locust there will be a rotation of the arm but it originates from the shoulder not over focused in the elbow. The lower arm can also twist ( as in wrist) with out the elbow rotating and this feel fine if not great (very intense though). So shoulder and wrist can rotate but elbow needs to keep a straight line between the two. Anything beyond straight is either bent (thats fine) or hyper extended(bad). Sorry for the language folks. This is a complicated dynamic I am trying to express. If a person hyper extends the elbow I see the neck hold instead of the romboids strenghtening. Arm, shoulder, and neck balancing is a advanced topic primarily I feel because the upper back channels for pure cosmic energy is closed due to the battles taking over in the lower chakras for the vast majority of people on the planet. I am also finding men have a advantage at arm balance because our structure in the arms is better balanced in general than women. Talking to much! Your turn. | |
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| Actually, very well described. The one thing you either neglected to mention or aren't considering is the carrying angle. This is usually greater in women, making it look like they are or cannot straighten their arms in many asanas. It's just the way it is.
I don't happen to think half shalabasana is necessarily a healthy pose. Particularly for beginners. This is no surprise, since I don't think Bikram is for beginners.
I think perhaps, though, you're looking for a modification? If this pose is forcing the hyper extension you see, have them go up on their fists until their elbows open up. Putting body weight on the elbow joint, when frequently people are too tight to extend their arms fully in the first place? GEEZE! We wouldn't ask them to do that in a forward bend, would we? Why on these delicate elbows?
Theoretically, if the arms with the elbow joint down are flat on the ground, they cannot hyper extend because there is no place for the joint to bend into the floor. This does not take into account the fullness of the biceps and lower arm development. Like knees, hyper extension is possible, even if the heels are on the floor (paschimottanasana) or standing, with something looking "straight." Your observation of the back, neck and shoulder muscles is astute, because that is exactly what is happening. It's pretty impossible to ask someone to "microbend" their elbows in this position, but this is what needs to happen. To get that, they need to be putting weight strongly into their finger PADS. Not heel of the hand, but pads. Pressure there can force a teeeeeeeeensy bend into the elbows, even with body weight on them. Try it and see. Now getting a student to hold and remember that, even in the name of joint safety and avoiding injury? Good luck with beginners.
Note that this asana, done in this hand position, also compromises the collar bone insertion into the sternum. It is possible to move those tiniest of upper ribs out of place, which can be painful and is frequenly misdiagnosed. Rolling the shoulders in like that is nah-sty. Kurmasana, when one is not open enough in the hips or upper back to do it properly, does the same thing. That's not Bikram Kurmasana, though. It's the other one.
I digress and got on a rant. Sorry! I hope this gives you some ideas.
Christine | |
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| Sounds like they are going to far into the pose. Too good is no good. Have you tried having them back off thier intesity in the pose to keep the proper alignment? Perhaps these people need to lift some wieghts to strengthen the area to prevent the hyper extention. Joints should never be locked or hyperextended in to any of the asanas. Long term effects are bad. | |
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| This how I queue the third part of half locust which is what I am concerned about, because of the amount of weight that is involved . "Arms underneath the body , palms facing down" Some are already in hyper extention mode and they are not doing anything yet, as in the structure its self is set in hyper extension. If you look at the inside of the elbow (funny bone) it will be sticking out past a straight line between the shoulder and wrist. Also the lateral aspect of the elbow is tight still. So you have medial part of the elbow hyperextending and the lateral aspect staying tight. Next " Legs together , bring both legs up and breath, allow the weight to flow as you breath, Work with the grounding in the front of the hips as you lengthen through the legs". This is for beginners there is more once they process this. So my concern is that for people who's structure has the elbow hyper extending, is this a good posture to do with all that weight on the arms? And as far as going to far, there is no way people that hyperextend their arms in their natural state can not go to far with all that weight, they already go to far without the posture. The forces of gravity are against them. To far in this posture would be someone trying to lift their legs high and forcefully to avoid their breath and the forearms.
Edited by innerline 2004-08-27 8:05 PM
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| As you've described, I would say no.
It's hard to get the finer points of an asana into a beginner (so why is this in Bikram's beginning series?!) so I would tend to ask them to change their hand position until they're strong enough to lift themselves off their arms. That is, if they don't crap out their lumbar spine or their top 1st and 2nd ribs first.
Once they're not so much of a beginner, you can talk to them about hands flat again, and putting weight into the pads and heel of the hand, almost a miniature cupping action to force a microbend into those sad elbows.
Essentially, if they can't get their hip bones off their hands? I wouldn't ask them to use the hands/arms/shoulders in this manner.
But that is my opinion, and why I don't teach Bikram. You've displayed a deeper-than-normal knowledge than most Bikram teachers, of the biomechanics of the arm. I think you know in your heart you shouldn't be teaching this position to these people who are potentially damaging such a fragile joint as the elbow. What's in your heart, not necessarily in the doctrine?
Christine | |
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| Thanks Christine, I feel this would take a mini workshop to help people with. I feel it would rattle alot of people. I blow up or pop enough pictures for students. I have tried in the past and it was a foreign subject to most. I believe because the patterns set in the arms start happening earlier, before we walk, so it is hard to make it a object of attention when it is closer to the sense of physical self. Like asking for food, a pickup, some love when we were a baby. Closer to the head. I will point it out to specific people when I see it as a major issue. With you on the Bikram not a beginner class. One benifit though is that it does bring the addictive personalities into the yoga community. Lets just hope they have the bodies to handle the self hate that many come to play out, most do. | |
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| Bringing this post back up from the past for the recent post on half locust. Kinda technical. This posture can play into the imbalances in the arms very easily.
I still teach it. I make an emphasis on activating the wrists so the elbows don't give in to the pressures of gravity. Palms facing up is a good modification, but it disables the shoulders some what. So the focus when the palms are facing up is not to lift the legs off the arms, cuase it would screw with the neck if done to extrinsically ( forcefully, not from the core), but to open the outside of the elbow ( lateral). Then when lateral elbow is open to return to palms down without collapsing into the medial aspect of the elbow. Ephasis is on the channel that the thumb makes at the base of the palm. Romboids will strenghten and the legs and hips can start to come off the arms. I still think this is not a begginer posture. Go very slow. | |
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| Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram? If you read bikram beginning yoga book, listen to the instructors and your body you shouldn't get hurt, even if your elbows or knees are locked. I've been doing bikram for a year and i've never experience an injury. Also, make sure you get enough rest days in between sessions. I wouldn't do yoga for five days straight. Finally, use proper alignment, form, and remember to breathe. | |
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| seandre - 2005-07-20 8:36 AM
Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram? If you read bikram beginning yoga book, listen to the instructors and your body you shouldn't get hurt, even if your elbows or knees are locked. I've been doing bikram for a year and i've never experience an injury. Also, make sure you get enough rest days in between sessions. I wouldn't do yoga for five days straight. Finally, use proper alignment, form, and remember to breathe.
I wonder what YOU mean by proper alignment and form? Kinda relative statement. Or do you mean follow what it says in the book? That would be a sad statement for me. Like, just believe in the bible and you will be OK. I wish it was that simple.
Why are so many people getting injured doing bikram?
Because their are many mis-alignment that teachers are promoting. Poor understanding of wholistic practice from teachers. Like practically no awareness (unless studied outside Bikram TT)of core dynamics. Meaning the teachers are promoting yoga be done in a parts outlook, instead of from the wholistic outlook.
Hey, we do not know what we don't know. And the more you know the more your aware of what you don't know. And the more you know the more you can see what someone else is not aware of.
seandre, you seem happy with where your at. For others it can be difficult to honor what is happening in the moment. For me as a teacher I work on finding ways that people can feel like they can work with themselves. Not ," just do it this way and you will be OK". Cause it might not work and then what do you offer people, "push through the pain" like Bikram teaches.  | |
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| bikram wouldn't have such a large following if numerous students were getting hurt. You won't get hurt if you follow the directions and stop trying to develop your own technique. Form means going into and out of a posture. Alignment means how your body is align while performing the asanas. By the way, students get hurt in other yoga forms. | |
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| In my opinion, this is a bunch of hoo-ha from someone who knows no differently. This is like Ashtanga practitioners saying Ashtanga is the only way and anyone who doesn't practice this form (or gets hurt) isn't doing yoga, is weak, lazy, or unable to hang. Hoo-ha.
Human bodies are different. Everyone's alignment, although in theory the same, is not. Life, injury, habit, tension, and many other factors can change what is an optimal alignment for any given human being's body.
As far as >>stop trying to develop your own technique"? So many newbies unfortunately end up in Bikram first, that they wouldn't know a technique if it bit them on the butt. They're doing what they can, often with very little (knowledgable) teacher input, and they push far too hard.
The former is hardly unique to Bikram, but to actually promote cookie-cutter yoga is just plain stupid. If a teacher were telling you this, I'd advise getting the heck outta Dodge and finding a teacher who knew his/her ears from the elbows.
(Note: You cannot use the word you're defining in the defination. Alignment means how something is lined lined up in relation to subsequent componants.)
The questions regarding elbow hyper-exension are valid and good ones. Not everyone's elbows will bend/straighten to the degree demanded by one's own body weight pressing on them. It depends on the joint, the ligaments (which do not stretch, only loosen -- BAD!!!) and the carrying angle. If you're not familiar with the latter, do a little research.
The only wrong in yoga is the risk of injury, either immediate or through repetative stress. A knowledgable teacher can spot that potential.
And Bikram obviously does have a large following, and the injuries reported are not fantasies. But neither are those in Ashtanga, Sivananda, Anusara, and so on. Blind faith, however, will cause more and more injuries than someone actually paying attention to what their body can do at any given time, and NOT trying to push it!
Seandre, get more exposure and stop taking one person's generalities as the .. Bible.
Christine
seandre - 2005-07-20 11:35 PM
bikram wouldn't have such a large following if numerous students were getting hurt. You won't get hurt if you follow the directions and stop trying to develop your own technique. Form means going into and out of a posture. Alignment means how your body is align while performing the asanas. By the way, students get hurt in other yoga forms. | |
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| i think that one thing that clouds the issue is language.
when i took more than a couple bikram classes, i kept hearing the same cue over and over 'lock your knees" and 'lock out your elbows' and so on. To me, 'lock out' means 'hyperextend' as opposed to 'lifting the kneecaps and maintaining strength in the quadriceps.' i think this is one reason why people get injured.
also, people do get injured in any number of styles of yoga. it is often a combination of factors--factors that may include the method of teaching (the language a teacher uses and miscommunications therein). i know that, being experienced, there are a lot of ways of saying the same thing, but in any class, i'm going to take care of myself (i know the basic alignment from a theory standpoint). A beginner usually doesn't have this benefit.
because of the heat, and because of the encouragement to 'feel the pain' a beginner isn't likely going to feel an injury as it is occuring, and if they do, they're going to do it anyway. i wish that bikram teachers would use terms like 'discomfort' and 'work' rther than 'pain.' they are different, and the difference is important.
anyway. . . | |
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| I am new here, but have been following some of these threads for a few weeks. I have been practicing yoga for several years at home (teaching myself from books and dvd's occasionally). I started Bikram classes almost a month ago because I felt the need for more instruction to avoid injury. I don't want to bash Bikram because I feel that I get some really good things out of it. But, I was hyper extending my knees (and now I'll have to watch the elbows too). I discussed it with a teacher who gave me good advice on how to lock my knees without hyper extending. I wish it had been made a bigger deal from the beginning because I have started having knee problems again and will have to take it easy until they get better - I had knee problems from running earlier this year.
I am glad I found this forum because I probably would have kept hyper extending for a while longer. I think that the information provided in these types of threads is really helpful and just wanted to say thanks. | |
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| Welcome catherine! I am glad you found someone to help you learn alignment and keep your body healthy  As Christine says, we all have misalignments and weird things that we do withour bodies and it makes a lot of sense to do what we can to correct those. Over extending a knee or twisitng a shoulder repetitively is like driving your car with poor wheel alignment - at first you don't notice it, then things get bumpy, eventually it gets really hard to drive and when you finally get it to the mechanic you find out that you have done all kinds of damage that could have been prevented if you spent that little time and money to get the wheel alignment fixed a long time ago! Good luck with your yoga and keep posting  | |
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| I would gladly pay $20.00 per class taught by either YogaDancer or Innerline. Their kind of experience is worth it. (Yes, I know, this has nothing to do with the original post)
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| Hey - what am I? Chopped liver??  OK, I don't teach Bikram...but neither does YogaDancer. She barely admits to being the fabulous multi-talented teacher she is  | |
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| I meant to say YogaDancer, Innerline AND Tourist AND Bruce (especially Bruce ) | |
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| Yes! Yeah Bruce! I think we all have to get together somehow and celebrate when he grads from teacher school | |
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| You won't get injured if you lock your knees the proper way. The order of the 26 asanas will prevent injuries. Remember that each asanas leads into the next. I have taken other yoga style that go from downdog into a headstand, therefore, increasing the risk of injury. Also, the postures in a bikram beginning class is very easy compared to beginning postures in other yoga styles. You're risking injury if you don't lock your knees in the standing head to knee, standing bow or the balancing stick. Tourist I think bikram have alot more experience than you. Bikram yoga sells itself. | |
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| seandre: We all understand your a beleiver in Bikram. Just follow what it says and you will be fine. I am glad it works for you. Some in their experience have found it doesn't. This statement "You're risking injury if you don't lock your knees in the standing head to knee, standing bow or the balancing stick." sounds like you have alot of fear around this. Have you tried not locking your knee to see what could happen or do you just have fear of it. "Bikram yoga sells itself" you do sound like a missionary. This is the right way and if you don't you will go to hell. Your sold. I wonder if you sold your own ability to find out for yourself. | |
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| No, I have lost that ability. Once you take a Bikram yoga class, you will never stop. Everything makes sense. If you don't lock your knees in the asanas I mentioned, you will injure yourself because your foundation is not properly balance. How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked? Your whole upper body, especially the hips, will not be properly aligned. There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked. How can you do the locust if your elbows are not locked? Is there anything you agree with when it comes to Bikram style of yoga? | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | seandre - 2005-07-22 4:37 PM
Once you take a Bikram yoga class, you will never stop.
Guess I'm the exception that proves your "rule" . . . I'm a Bikram certified instructor and I no longer teach or practice Bikram yoga. I have stopped.
"If you don't lock your knees in the asanas I mentioned, you will injure yourself because your foundation is not properly balance. How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked? Your whole upper body, especially the hips, will not be properly aligned. There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked."
I have frequently practiced Standing Head to Knee with a microbend in my knee. It did not lead to injury. I have also practiced Balancing Stick with the same microbend. I think that it is far easier to align your hips (which I don't think are part of the upper body) if you do slightly bend the standing knee, then work on straightening the leg.
How is there more pressure on your knee when it's not locked??  | |
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| seandre: I hear you passion for Bikram's. Thats great. You have followed the practice the best you can with the info that has been given to you. I do not see any of you're confusion as something that is your fault. This subject of alignment and foundation is critical to successful practice. I will do my best I can to explain these on a forum. It is much easier if I could guide you in a class so you can feel it for yourself. Some bakground info is needed to express this clearly, so stay with me.
We have active and passive elements in our bodies. Phasic and postural muscles as an example. Postural muscles respond to how gravity flows through the body.The musle do not tire very easily. Phasic muscle are the ones we activate to make big movements. Postural muscles are deep aroung the bones and phasic are more superficial. Balance is a relative notion. Their is a movement toward greater balance, a more inclusive, wholistic; not a static perfect state. If the balance is being comprimised then the phasic muscles will HAVE TO get involved to keep the current integrity of the body intact. Balance would be the most effiecient use of the body at the time that would as much as possible evenly distribute our chi and weight through out the body. Effiecency= ease, nothing working to hard at the expense of something else. Even distribution of weight in the foot reflects this up through the rest of the body. So the foundation physically starts in the foot. So the foot is like a mirror for the rest of the body. If the knee or anything else is not working with the foundation then struggle is all thats left to feel like your doing something.
Knee over the ankle, not heel, is the alignment to even have a chance to get balance in the foot, that does not comprimise another area. Our weight is too great for the phasic muscles to handle on their own. The postural (inner) muscles need to do the work and the only way they can do it is if the knee is over the ankle. Phasic muscle supporting the postural, not the other way around, where the phasic are squeezing the life out of the inner aspect. What happens for people normally when the knee is over the ankle, in forehead to knee, is that the hip will be behind the knee. The challenge is to see if the hip can get over the knee with the knee over the ankle with out pullin from somewhere in the body. It needs to come from the core and its relationship through the foot into the core of the earth. Thats the practice. Their no quick way to force it because the "force it" shows up in the phasic muscle and phasic muscle when over emphasised can only pull from somewhere else. If in a diligent practice the core is honored then the person expands through the whole posture instead of contract one area to get a desired result.
To answer your question "How can you properly align your body if your knees are not locked?". Locked normally means one is using their muscles to the point where the ligaments in the back of the knee HAVE TO get involved. Ligaments get involved like that, only when the bodies integrity is being comprimised, not a good sign. When a good balance is reached in the leg the quads would naturally on their own engage to support the inside , not squeeze it out. To answer your question, alignment is not something you do but something that you let reveal itself as something more supportive.
"There's more pressure on your knees when they're not locked." Afraid your body can not handle its own weight. Alignment allows for people to be able to handle their own energy responsibly instead of pushing it out of the body.
"How can you do the locust if your elbows are not locked?" This is a sign that the pressure of gravity is to much and the elbow hyper-extends. Learning to use the arm channels (postural muscles) from the core to work with the great pressure of gravity in this posture is key. Many try to fight their way through it, dangerous.
"Is there anything you agree with when it comes to Bikram style of yoga?" Yoga postures are ancient, Bikram has his teaching of it, Much I do not agree with, but yoga is a practice not a write or wrong thing. | |
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| i've also taken bikram classes and i was not 'sold' on the sequence, the heat, the teacher training (that is, the teacher with whom i practiced was a new graduate, and i wasn't impressed, but then, i'm often not impressed with most new teachers, as it takes about a year for them to gain their own voice), or the calls for allignment.
to me, the term 'lock out your knee' means that the kneecap is loose, quad not engaged, knee hyper extended--this will lead to injury on any number of levels. I know that many beginners do this version of "lock out your knee' until the teacher clarifies for them during adjustment. So, it's not exactly intuitive. I think that different language may be appropriate to describe the particular desired stance.
similarly, i didn't find the sequencing better or worse than any other sequence that i've done or made on my own. i could see how someone could be injured--in any number of ways--in any number of styles, mostly out of mindfulness. i don't think bikram's is the best way.
does bikram have more experience than me? sure. does that mean tht i, as a teacher, have nothing to offer or no capacity to be critical of other teacheres, regardless of their level of experience? certainly not.
i'm smart enough to figure out what works for me, what works for my students. I also encourage my students to find out what works for themselves, to try other styles and schools, and experiment in their home practices. I think this is really what yoga is about--rather than coming to a studio for zillions of classes. It's really about developing one's own practice within one's own experience. classes are merely a springboard to start on this grand path! | |
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| seandre - Bikram has undoubtedly much more experience that I have - no question. And as innerline points out, yoga is yoga and Bikram teaches yoga. I teach a different style and I use different alignment cues becaue a) that is what my teacher uses and the tradition of yoga is that you teach as you have been taught and b) my teacher happens to have discovered, thorough his own practice and teaching, much of the same physiological and anatomical knowledge that innerline has so beautifully written for us. I could add c) that BKS Iyengar has significantly more experience than Bikram (although no Rolls Royces, to my knowledge) but that would be childish, perhaps.
I have no doubt that many people can benefit from Bikram yoga. I have heard amazing and wonderful stories and I believe them! I cannot do Bikram yoga because of the heat - I don't like it - and because I do not have perfectly aligned legs. If I were to lock my knees as described I would injure them. I know this because, as a beginner, I did that action and paid the price. I also know that one attempt of fixed firm, heat or not, preparatory poses or not, would very likely cripple me. I cannot sit in that pose without support let alone lie down in it. For ME - it would not be a safe practice. For others with alignment issues (and to be honest, most people have them) I advise caution. Bikram is yoga - yoga is good. For those who like it and can do it without injury, as you can, I have only the very best wishes. ENJOY! | |
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| zoebird-
I have to say that I feel the same way. I am not sold on Bikram, but I am not against it either. My experience with yoga has been mostly with books and writing my own sequences from the books. I like rotating postures in and out so that I can learn new ones every once in a while. So, to go to Bikram classes has been a whole new experience for me - from the fixed set of postures to the heat to the way that many teachers conduct class (sometimes with a "you have three seconds to go, kick out" attitude). I can't say that I have a problem with these things though - I'll have to find out for myself. I do feel it necessary to really watch myself so that I don't get injured. Different teachers point out different things about form and how things are supposed to feel. Somtimes I agree and sometimes I am not so sure. But I still have so much to learn that I can't begin to judge at this point.
I think it's great that you encourage students to try other styles of yoga for themselves. I intend to do that - I think I am going to check out an ashtanga class this weekend.
Sorry this went off the initial topic, but it seems that the locking knee/elbow debate evolves into this sort of discussion. | |
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| i think it is very important to take care of oneself in a yoga class. i often use the mantra throughout class "be yourself, do only what works for you using appropriate modifications." i teach postures as a series of modifications, try this. if you want to go deeper, try this. if you want to go further, try this. if this still feels comfortable or you want more of a challenge, try this. followed by 'choose your own adventure, you don't have to be anyone but yourself!' this empowers students to engage at their level on that day, and i even demonstrate (when i take classes where my own clients will be present) that i also have days where i do heavily modified poses, and some days, i just do all modified poses because that's what is working for me! this gives them the freedom to simply try their best and not worry about 'how far' or 'how well' they can 'do yoga.' because doing yoga is about being yourself, being present with your reality in that moment.
i have been in bikram classes where this aspect has been emphasized. in general, these bikram teachers were experienced in yoga before they came to bikram. many of them were trained in other styles of yoga before they recieved their bikram training. and even still, many of them teach different styles, including bikram, throughout the week. In this way, the totality of their yoga experience--on their own, in other styles, and in bikram--informs the teaching in those classes.
these bikram classes are, for me, very enjoyable. a bit hotter than i prefer, but i do love a good sauna every once in a while! the reason is that the teachers usually recognize my practice and my areas where i'm backing off or working. they'll give applicable direction or options or assists that are subtle and 'on point' rather than sticking to a script. Perhaps these are just 'good teachers' who also teach bikram yoga. perhaps these are good bikram teachers and that's what bikram is supposed to be at it's best. i do not know.
i think bikram style has a lot to offer it's students. there are many elements of the sequence that i like, and when i apply my prefered alignment techniques (iyengar/krishnamacharya), i found the postures to be very engaging on multiple levels. | |
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| catherine - 2005-07-22 6:39 PM
I still have so much to learn that I can't begin to judge at this point.
Catherine - you wise, wise woman! Knowing how much you don't know is a sign of a real yogi And after you practice for a while and do some more classes in different styles, you'll feel like you know even less. Join the club | |
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| I am fairly new (3 months in) to the practice (Bikram). I had knee surgery in february with a promise of running 6 weeks after the surgery. My knee did not heal as promised. I was told that I could not do any exercises other then swimming and yoga. When I heard the term "locking your knee" I gasped loudly in class and tears came to my eyes. I was corrected that I needed to pull through my quads and "lift up" through the leg. What I have found, thankfully, is that I have made my quads stonger along with my hamstrings which in turn has protected my knee. I used to hyper extend, believing this is what you had to do
Anway, I have found this practice, for me, to be wonderful is so many ways. I have my moments though of trying to get myself to class, thus joining this forum, looking for some motivation from you guys | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Welcome Elizabeth - sounds like you have a good teacher there! A lot of us hyperextend even though it isn't as visible as it is with some people. It is hard work to engage the quads properly but worth it. | |
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| Agreed!!!! I cannot even begin to tell you how sore my thighs and buttox have been these past few weeks. I feel as though I am walking with 200 pound logs instead of legs... Any suggestions on how to ease the soreness? (excuse the bad spelling, not one of my virtues  ) | |
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| Oh, for God's sake!
Why do you think God invented Advil?
C. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | God didn't invent Advil...weak minded humans did.
Some of us like to use natural methods... | |
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| Knock yourself out.
If that person knew a natural method, don't you think that person would probably be using it? Or perhaps that person is and ... it's obviously not working?
And some people call me judgemental.
"weak-minded humans?" Tell that to someone crippled with migraines, endometriosis, rheumatoid arthritis or a lot of other conditions that so-called "natural" methods can't seem to effect.
Geeze.
As I would not bark back at a dog, I guess I'm silly to waste my time arguing with foolish people.... | |
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| If it's the back of the legs that are aching, try a standing forward bend when you first get up (I use the one where you bend forward, clasp your elbows, and then hang). This seems to work for me when I've got the over-done-yoga-conditioning routine aches any way
Fee | |
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Posts: 8442
| Gooooood morning Christine! Always nice to see your shining face.  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You know what?? For someone who claims to be such an expert in Yoga...the object is to rid your body of toxins and use natural means...such as Yoga postures can cure and get rid of headaches.
Why not direct a person to a Yoga Posture that will do just that instead of blasting them with aspirin that is only going to cover up the headache or aching pain temporarily. I say go to the root of the problem, eliminate that...cause you will have to eventually now won't you??
For persons with endometriosis and all those other things you mentioned, that are under an MD's care with no choice, of course the MD is going to use his powerful method of PILLS. There are other choices...healthier ones.
I'm not going to even touch my comment about weak minded humans....we all have to deal with that on some kind of level...it wasn't a judgement!!
Edited by Cyndi 2005-07-27 10:14 AM
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| Although I apprecaite the compliment, I've never claimed to be "an expert in yoga."
To each her own. Perhaps I should have suggested Willow Bark Tea ... from which asprin is made.
Sorry. I don't have an pretentions and frankly feel that sometimes there's a reason God gave man the ability to make certain drugs. Such as pain killers, anesthesia, antibiotics, adrenalin and antihistamines, etc.
Last time I checked, I'm entitled to that opinion and the use thereof, as are others, without being jumped on for choosing relief. There is a middle road, Cyndi.
C. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Ohhh, I am so hesitant to jump into this but feel I have to 
The space between the "all naturals" and the "anything that works" people is pretty large. I think the middle ground is probably big enough to drive a truck through - or lead and elephant if we are being that way (although they say cows produce methane gas so I'm SURE your average elephant contributes mightly to the destruction of the ozone as well....) and there is some wiggle-room for perhaps?
I cannot speak for TCM, but the naturopaths I have been to all seem to have a "pill for every ill" attitude every bit as much as my MD does. The difference is that that compound I was told to take for allergies is not regulated nearly as well as the antihistmines on the drugstore shelf, has never been tested and is a distillation of a tiny part of a plant that probably is grown in an area where native crops have been abandoned in favour of something they can sell to the west. Oh yes, it also had the same side effects. And it cost a freakin' fortune.
So I fall somewhat to the side of whatever works. For me that is unfortunately meaning I start with 6 pills a day. They keep my stomach acid from eating my esophagus away. When MD suggested prozac for PMS, I went the other way - fast! Instead of another pill every day of the month, I get a little St. John's wort and use it as needed - when chocolate isn't doing the trick And I do yoga. And it helps.
I was glad for the chemo and steroids that kept my mother alive for an extra two years. Maybe she wouldn't have had the cancer if she hadn't smoked, hadn't kept those secrets all those years, hadn't eaten meat, had practiced yoga and taken herbal everything. But she didn't. So I was glad for the nasty drugs.
It is a big, big subject and this is a complex world. It is not black and white and one size never did fit all. OK - that's it for me for now.... | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Tourist and Yoga Dancer,
I still don't get your point. Since this forum is about yoga, and bettering ourselves, and most people on this forum I am quite sure are looking for a more natural approach to healing themselves, vs.. taking pain pills. For God's sake, you have this wonderful web site promoting the Yoga asana's and yet you turn around and give advise for the opposite of what your representing.
My point is that, since there are so many alternatives to pain pills, and there are YOGA Asana's that can eleviate pain, why would we want to cover up our minor ailment, why not get rid of for good - Naturally!!
Sure, if you get to a point in your life where there is absolutely nothing you can do and you have exhausted everything, take a friggin pill. But, if its because you did Yoga for a day and your sore, get over it, get back on your mat and do some more. That's all I'm saying.
Tourist, I'm not one of those holistic people, I practice TCM. Soo, when I get a headache, I go to the source which is usually caused by excessive heat in my body caused from my liver. My TCMD doctor does his magical work with needles to stimulate that meridian, therefore, I have no more headache, and not only that, I've cleared the stagnant energy that was causing the headache to begin with. If I just took a pain pill, I would be sitting here today, 3 weeks later with a f**ing headache...no thank you!! Bikram is great too for the headache issue, but then we would have to start talking about headaches and what causes them and that could be very complicated.
Yogadancer, will you please keep those little darts inside your flower,
Ciao,
Cyndi | |
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| Sorry guys but I think you're both missing the point..... the questioner can make up their own mind if they want to go natural or not, they'd just appreciate some suggestions as to what to do to reduce the aching!
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2005-07-28 9:33 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Your absolutely right Fee. | |
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| You're actually projecting quite a bit onto many things, including the purpose of my site.
If you were to read the FAQs or ever ask me, the reason I began that site was to facilitate a previous yoga board (which Tourist and I monitored and has since been incorporated into iVillage).
It's hard to discuss "that asana where you sit and wrap your arms around your legs and look up" whereas if someone could find a photo of the asana to which they wanted to refer, it would eliminate a lot of guesswork and potentially harmful instruction.
I have never and do not make any claims as to yoga's effectiveness as any type of cure, pain killer, or life enrichment, let alone path to enlightenment, better humanity, nor a more (somehow) pure or natural way of life. It is simply a reference site. If you found more it in, as you evidently have in what you believe yoga and those who practice asana should be, it's total projection on your part. However, if it makes you happy and somehow enriches your life? Knock your bad self out.
I'm not digging at you when I say it's very naive and in such, quite judgemental to insist that because someone practices asana, they should not avail themselves of medical advancements. Particularly acting under the assumption that people want what you desire out of a yoga practice. I happen to practice yoga simply for the fact that it brings me joy, further, simply because it feels good. And even here, becoming more basic, on a totally physical level. I don't and cannot claim mental clarity, peace, acceptance, nor even patience. And frankly, I don't care. I also happen to know quite a few people who practice for the same reasons, although few have the testicles to actually say it out loud in a yoga community.
Perhaps, which we don't know in this case, arnica and hot baths have not done the trick. This person could also be overtraining and creating miniscule muscle tears, which are causing swelling and this achy pain.
Natural does not always equal better (or safe!). It would be wonderful if it actually did!
So if something natural works for this poor soul, great. If not? Pop an advil and you'll feel better in 15 minutes.
Christine
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| as to the leg soreness, i would recommend a combination of things. First, do some self massage. massage the leg muscle. if you can get someone else to do it for you (significant other, perhaps), then i recommend having them massage your legs. Second, do a few poses throughout the day to stretch the area. a forward bend is a great idea (mentioned above), as is doing a quadricep stretch and a calf stretch. western-style stretches work, as long as the knee alignment is right (keep the knees together as you lift your heel toward your hip bone). THis should help reduce soreness.
also, drink plenty of fluids. sometimes, it's an electrolyte imbalance that causes excessive soreness--and this is particularly common after hot classes (and i don't just mean external temp adding to the heat, any class where you sweat a lot, you'll need to replenish your fluids). I recommend watermelon juice or coconut water. Both of these are excellent electrolyte replenishers. You could also use gatoraide, emergen-C, or 'smart water' brand water (which has electrolytes).
getting adequate amounts of appropriate types of fat will also be very helpful. A balance of omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids is important in cell repair. monounsaturated fat and saturated fat in appropriate amounts (think olive oil) are also great for cell repair and for circulation, which will help move the lactic acid out of the muscle.
Getting adequate rest is also important. 7-9 hours of sleep will help with muscle recovery and repair. this allows the body to integrate the muscle changes.
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as to head aches, finding the origin causes is important. generally, i don't get head aches, and when i do i use a combination of massage and aroma therapy. this seems to work well for me, as well as rest. i've never had a migraine though.
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as to the issue of western v eastern medicine--i'm all for the use of alternatives. I believe that people should explore and deeply contemplate their health choices before choosing a route. alternatives should be considered, and if they don't function, then there is no harm in using western medicine. here's the illustration:
Susun Weed, herbalist and healer, wrote about the wise woman tradition's six steps of healing.
0. Do nothing.
Weed describes this as the "vital, invisible step." She explains " This is not 'don't do anything.' You must actively do nothing." Essentially, step 0 is about taking time for yourself. iF, for example, you've got menstrual cramps, unplug your phone and your TV and go to sleep. If your cramps worsen or are accute, go to step 1. Meditation and sleeping in complete darkness are also included in this step.
1. Collect Information
Charting fertility, writing down questions and observations, talking with friends and health care pracititioners, reading books, and searching the internet are part of this step. Observation and contemplation are imperative here to determine what the problem is, what it's origins may be, as well as what possibilities are out there in regards to the problem--so that one can proceed accordingly.
2. Engage the Energy
Notice what emotions come up around the problem. Attend to your dreams, write out a conversation between the problem and you. find out what it wants. find out what you want from it.
when the process comes to the fore, take a bath and relax. try a homeopathic remedty. pick one remedey rfom step 2 and set a time limit for working with it. Weed says it's vital to set time limits for every step. If the problem worsens or are very acute, try another step 2 remedy, or go on to step 3.
step 2 can also mean simple things like giving thanks for your life, for the food and water that sustain you, for your parents and grandparents who gave you life, for your family and friends. Give thanks for your interest in your own wellness. A spirit of thankfulness--or lack of it--can make or break your day.
3. Nourish and Tonify
Feed yourself well. Replace processed, sugary, fast foods and drinks with freshly made, nutrient rich meals. Prepare herbal infusions to give yourselve high levels o fminerals and vitamins; nourish and tonify your body. participate in regular physical activity (such as yoga). grow some of your own food. go for a walk. If the problem is not better or worsens, add another aspect to step 3 or move on to step 4.
4. Sedate and Stimulate
Acupuncture, chiropractice, swedish massage and most herbal tinctures fall into this category. weed caustions that 'there is always risk of developing dependience on step 4 rememdies be arare fo the frequence, dosage and duration of your treatments--and your time limits." If the problem worsens or is not relieved within your time limit, go to step 5 a or b.
5. a. Use Supplements
In this step, Weed includes all concentrated, extracted and synthesized substances, including cof liver oil, vitamin and minteral supplements, standardised perhaps tinctures and all herbs in capsules.
5. b. Use Drugs
Over the counter and prescription drugs, as well as all hormonal medications (including progesterone creams) are included in this step.
6. Break and Enter
besudes surgery, weed includes psychotropic drugs, 'fear-inspiring language' shots and diagnostic tests as part of step 6.
Weed further explains: " when you do nothing, collect information, engage the energy, and nourissh and tonify (0-3), then funciotion and joy increase, you build health. true healing takes place in these early steps. whether your problem is chronic or acute, steps 0-3 (along with realistic expectations of the time healing takes) are worthy of your attention.
Although the impluse in our culture is to jump to step 4 or 5, each step up in creases the possbility of sever side effects. while healing can and does take place with the aid of drugs and surgery, once you get to step 5, you can damage or destroy health. drugs might get rid of the problem, but they don't address the cause or nourish the body. Drugs mask sumptoms. Even common, over the counter drugs like aspirin can injure health. In the Wide Woman Tradition, symptoms are not enemies to be destroyed, but charished messengers who encourage us to take good care of ourselves."
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the thing that i think is important about this is a methodology. It may not be necessary to get TCM to manage a simple head ache when an eye pillow and rest will do. It may be necessary to get a hysterectomy if there is no other treatment for severe uterine fibroids. But, the individual person should at least consider the stages of healing
many people in our culture automatically turn to drugs in order to solve problems without doing the first two steps at least (nothing, gather information). after doing those steps, steps 2 and 3 may not be something one wants to engage. They may want to go to step 4 (herbalist, TCM, chiropractor) or just go to step 5 (sunrider's stuff, for example, or taking advil). In my experience, people go from pain symptoms to step 5 without doing any of the pre-work. i think the self examination process is most important. and from that, an individual will make an appropriate, educated decision as to how to proceed with their health.
(the six stages of healing part was taking from Garden of Fertility by Katie Singer, using the materials from Susun Weeds "Wise Woman Herbal for the Child Bearing Year" which i just got in the mail yesterday!) | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Very interesting, zoebird! One important thing I see there is that more natural remedies take time and today's world sure does not give us much of that - western or otherwise. So people do turn to whatever is going to work fast, which is sometimes ok but often not.
If I can steer this conversation a bit away from the topic (oh! I see it already has been steered away from half locust! ) I have been thinking about vacations because many of my friends have already had theirs and I am *patiently* waiting for mine to come around on the old calendar. People are so obsessed with going somewhere and doing stuff and being more busy than they are during their work life! Everybody jokes about coming back to work for a rest, don't they?
When I was a kid people took their time off work and went to the beach in their own town. Granted, we had NO money but even the families I knew who seemed "rich" to me did not do the equivalent of a trip to Disneyland every year. Summer holidays were a time when the kids climbed trees and the parents sat in the backyard with their feet in the wading pool and had a few beers after they spent some time in the garden. Seems to me this fast culture has removed a LOT of that good stuff... 
Oh yes - and zoebird, I like your suggestions about doing poses through the day etc. to relieve aches. This may be one weakness (dare I say this???? checking my code of ethics and wording this carefully...) of the yoga systems that teach a set sequence and don't encourage home practice. When each pose is taught separately and the benefits are described, it is easier for a student to take that information with them and use it wisely in their day to day life. Yes, it does take a newer student time to assimilate this knowledge but if self-practice is encouraged, students do take it in and many start to use it right away. A lot of my students tell me they use one or two poses right from Day 1. | |
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| the pace of our culture, to me, is part of the problem. everyone wants results now and fast.
i decided to do the personal training with that guy, and i explained to him that yoga is a life-long practice. if he does his yoga every day (to help with his back problem), he will see a great deal of reduced pain for the day, and after a few weeks, be basicly pain free. but if he stops, it's likely that the pain will come back. He thought that one or two yoga sessions would "do the trick!" and i said "it takes more than two weight training sessions to look like Arnold, doesn't it? and you have to work to maintain it, right? yoga is the same." now he knows he's 'in for it.' as he put it. LOL
i think that part of the reason why people are so sick is because we are culturally running ourselves ragged. Fast food, fast track on the job, working overtime, working more than one job, vacations that are taxing--these things are rough on our systems. We're not going a normal pace anymore, and because of that we're not able to care for ourselves.
Cyndi mentioned when she spoke about her cat that living in the mountains and taking that time was deeply healing. I know that this is the case. My husband and I take the time as often as possible to watch the sun set together. Sometimes, i teach during sun set, but doing this small act, engaging with nature in the process, is a deeply healing act--and it slows us down. People around us think that we're nuts!
I think this really speaks to that first step of healing. The necessity of taking time to rest (think, And on the seventh day, He rested) cannot be underestimated. The understanding that healing may take time--a few weeks, a few months, even a few years--is hard for many people to understand because 'we dont have time for that--this is faster' even though it may cause more damage than good.
This isn't to say that there isn't a time and place for western medicine--there certainly is a time and place for it. But when, where, and how long one should endure it--these are big questions. I learned a great deal while working in the oncology and pediatric oncology wards at a hospital. My job there was pastoral care support worker. I went with the other pastoral care workers to aid people emotionally during their stay. Many people, including children, decided that western medicine time was through--and many went home to die. It was a powerful expression of both life and death, the power of love as an aspect of deep healing, even if physical healing wasn't in the cards. It was life affirming on so many levels. Similarly, there were those who were hospitalized for treatment who overcame their cancers and walked out of the place filled with joy and healing--also very life affirming. I was/am blessed to work in such environments. | |
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| One of the reasons I enjoy Sivananda is because I can tailor my practise to my mood / strength, so long as it includes each type of asana
Fee | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
Something really interesting here. The other day when I ran over my cat. I knew intuitively that there was no hope for my cat and that he was going to die. It was funny, because I had this self-doubt BS creep up and say, well you could jump in your car and rush this animal to the vet and pay lots of $$ for them to tell you the same thing you already know, then they would inject him with a chemical that would put him to sleep and so on.
My decision that day came when I called the vet and they were closed for a late lunch. Then I tried again, and the Doc was not available. That was my sign. So, I just did a natural thing, I let my cat die in peace, I let him experience his death all the way to the very end, naturally, connected to the earth and me and my daughter right by his side to the end. It was a very unique and natural experience all around. I'm so happy that I did not do the panic thing and rush him into a vets office to have this experience. Also, as I was sitting on my driveway, listening to the birds and the quiteness and stillness, I realized this was absolutely the best way. I hope that when I die, I'm not is some stupid hospital, take me to the earth and let me hear earth sounds when I go. Not only that, my daughter got to experience this too. She would not come near Bison due to fear. I told her that he was dying and to please come and comfort him and say goodbye. At first she would not, but then she came over during the last hour and we sat there together with him. That was so cool because I was able to turn a negative experience into a positive one. That could not have happened in a vets office. That evening we did pooja and we did a Hindu burial ceremony which was really sweet.
Then, yesterday after the burial, I went and had a 2-hour private yoga session. That is a true healing process!! No pain pills here, sure I had a friggin headache from all my crying and intensity, but I don't now. Imagine that??? | |
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| contemplating death--the deaths of others and my own--is a process that i find deeply rewarding. I actually have many elements (in my living will, for example) that relates to the sort of care that i don't want if all hope for survival is lost--where i want to die and so on. basicly, things are already taken care of in that regard, and i'm only 29!
i think on the death of my october j rabbit. while i know that he will live a long while yet, he is 8 yrs old. many rabbits die at this age, and usually rabbits go quickly, and at this age, while 'dancing.' they joyously skip about and have brain hemmorages. we have changed october j's nutrition to help prevent these problems (as well as others such as cancer, eye problems, bone density problems, etc).
but, i look to that rabbit and know that death will come to him, eventually, and i will be there to witness that process. if he suffers, i think it would be best to have him euthanized--particularly if he asks for it--and i will be there for that process. I had a cat growing up--she was my best friend--and when she was put to sleep, my parents made the appointment without me and didn't tell me. I was so angry! i had promised my Tiger that when her time came, i would be there with her. My parents said that they didn't tell me because they "knew i needed to study." which was total BS, because i never studied after 5 anyway, and this was my CAT who had been my best friend for 14 years or something. Dammit! i was going to be there. Not being that brought me a great deal of grief. And here i am, 6 years later, still very angry that my parents were so stupid towards me about it.
it is so important to take the time to grieve for any loved one, and you are so lucky that you were able to have such a good experience with bison's passing. it was honorable and dignified and i think that's what our companions want in their later lives. They know that we live longer, that is our way with them. Very few outlive us (certain kinds of parrots) and for those who do, not being with their loved ones at death is very difficult. I remember a parrot who was not at his life-long friend's passing (human friend was in the hospital), and that parrot was very agitated. I spent weeks with him, talking to him about his friend and grieving with the bird. After this time, he was able to be placed with another family (he was a very old bird), and he did well until his own passing. I was there when he was euthanized, because the family always called on me when the bird was agitated. He was a wonderful creature who lived and died with great dignity.
it is amazing what the world has to offer us when we take the time to tune in and listen to the lessons. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Parrots outliving their owners. I got one of those too! Yardbird is 38 years old. I hope she doesn't out live me cause no one will be able to put up with her, she really is an a&&hole to other people, course you can't blame her for being yanked out of the rainforest by a man with a stick, | |
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| I was not aware that I was going to create such a stir by asking what I thought to be a very simple question.... 
Anyway, I feel like grabbing a knife and scooping out my quads and hamstrings at the moment as my legs hurt badly. I have being practicing everyday and did my first double yesterday. Advil: been there, done that. Massage, same thing. I guess just getting through the practice everyday is going to be my best bet....
I seriously want to cut my legs off as they feel like hammers pounding on them, a very dull pain... I apologize, I don't mean to complain too badly. I love this yoga, my mind is as high as I can imagine what a drug would be like, it's just right now my body is not following suit...
I appreciate all of the advice | |
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| it simply sounds like 'too much, too fast.' which is common among beginning weight lifters too.
again, you may need more fat, more protien, more rest, massage, electrolytes, stretching (or more yoga). | |
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| epsom salt bath will help. plus, everything everyone else said | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yes, epsom salts! And REST. If you dare to venture to other yoga styles you can find yoga called *restorative* Heavenly | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Wibus - 2005-07-28 3:56 PM
Anyway, I feel like grabbing a knife and scooping out my quads and hamstrings at the moment as my legs hurt badly. I have being practicing everyday and did my first double yesterday. Advil: been there, done that. Massage, same thing. I guess just getting through the practice everyday is going to be my best bet....
I seriously want to cut my legs off as they feel like hammers pounding on them, a very dull pain... I apologize, I don't mean to complain too badly. I love this yoga, my mind is as high as I can imagine what a drug would be like, it's just right now my body is not following suit...
I appreciate all of the advice
Hey Wibus,
You really, really need to back off your practice a tinsy little bit. I would be careful about how far your pushing yourself into each pose and watch that very carefully. You know what?? You don't have to push to that level of pain to get the results from the asana, you only push a little bit over to the other side of discomfort. Having that said, when I was doing Bikram every day, I was going to Acupuncture every week...which helped a bunch. Once my Chinese Doctor when I told him my hamstrings hurt like h*%l, thought I meant for him to do the acupuncture on that area. Well, I couldn't get out of it and he put the needles all over those areas...talk about relief, it felt great to have that done and it cured my hamstring problem...which I had for weeks!!
Anyway, have you ever heard of Tiger Balm?? It works good for temporary relief. I like the White Tiger Balm as it is the stronger one.
Mainly, you need to rest your body as it is really important and rest will help your Chi Flow which is what you need to get through Bikram. Try to balance that out. When I was doing an every day practice, I did it over the winter months when I didn't have much going on..I sorda took a retreat. Today, there is no way with Summertime and all the activity at my house. I'm actually looking forward to winter time again, | |
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| Cyndi-
Thank you. I agree. I think my problem is, is that I get so very excited and I overdo it. A good friend of mine is going to teacher training in a month so this has been her job. I did my first double with her the other day along with going everyday.... I took the weekend off and it helped a lot. Triangle pose has posed a problem for me and that is where I am getting a lot of the pain, so, I have modified it to my own needs as to not stress my legs too much. Anyway, am heading into the bath with the salt!!! | |
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New User
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| my 10 year old daughter has hyper extended arms. she doesnt do yoga. she has been ice skating for 6 years. when she opens her hand its like the hand bends totally sinking down at elbow and then goes up. any pose that can help her? | |
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Half Locust and hyper extended arms